Greece, Turkey and Israel

NATO and the EU can make for strange bedfellows…

Turkey is in NATO. So is Greece. An attack on one means the other must come it it’s defense.

The USA (and much of Europe) are also NATO members. An attack on Greece or Turkey means all of us much come to their defense.

The USA has stated they will defend Israel. An attack on Israel is likely to get some US Involvement (eventually…)

So what happens if Turkey attacks Greece?

Or if Turkey attacks Israel? Or if Israel sinks a Turkish ship?

Oh Dear…

But it gets worse.

Turkey wants to join the EU. (Or had wanted to… maybe they are rethinking things in light of recent EU “issues” ;-)

Greece holds a “veto” over Turkey on that joining issue.

You would think this might make Turkey be a bit more circumspect about threats to Greece. You would be wrong.

Turkey declares Casus Belli on Greek Territorial Waters

I was looking at a dispute down in the Falklands (again…) where I ran into the fact that they found a bunch of oil next to them. This has caused the UK to stop pushing the locals to ‘love Argentina’ – well, that, and the fact that the locals were sending hate mail about it to parliament… AND it has caused Argentina to start making noises at the UN about “Mine Mine Mine MINE MINE!”… (their claim appears bogus based on the history I’ve found. Basically, the UK has dominated the Falklands since first discovery and the Argentine claim is based on one guy putting up a plaque AFTER the British and some ‘nature’ claim that comes down to ‘it is close to us so we can take it’.) The UK is even sending a prince down to the Falklands …

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Americas/2012/0202/Prince-William-oil-honor-Why-Argentina-is-pushing-to-reclaim-Falkland-Islands

That lead to looking at the various territorial waters claims, that lead to a Greek / Turkey issue that leads to this posting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_waters

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclusive_Economic_Zone

Where we find out that the USA and France have very large waters, while Russian and China are smaller than expected. BUT since much of the Russian territorial waters are in the Arctic, it’s clear why the started talking about Arctic seabed resources. They have a ‘sea bed gap’ ;-) But back at Greece, Turkey, and Israel… Under “Greece” was this odd bit:

Greece has not yet claimed an exclusive economic zone, although it is entitled to do so, as per UNCLOS 1982 as well as customary international law. This had led to direct threat by Turkey of casus belli if Greece was to declare her exclusive economic zone, although Greece restrained from any kind of declaration so far.

Well. That’s got to put a bit of a wrinkle into that whole EU membership / NATO mutual support matrix…

One other “odd bit” is that if Turkey WERE an EU member, they share Exclusive Economic Zones anyway, so Turkey could go on using whatever waters it is presently using that would be denied if Greece declared its legally allowed zone… Bit of a ‘chicken and egg’ there. So if Turkey just ‘played nice’ and said “Do what is legally your right, Greece, we respect your rights”; they would likely get EU membership fairly quickly and access to ALL EU Exclusive Economic Zones (of about 200 nautical miles). But instead they play the near-belligerent and Greece waves around an EU veto.

You would think folks would be brighter than that.

So WHY all this fuss? Well, it comes from what Turkey calls a unique character of the Aegean sea and what looks to me like an artifact of how Greece was able to reclaim land better after the various World Wars where the Ottoman Empire was on the losing side. Basically, it’s an artifact of PRIOR wars between these two (on and off for a few centuries…) Basically, Greek islands are spitting distance from Turkey. Oh, and that whole ‘Turkey stealing half of Cyprus in 1974′ thing. (Oh, pardon, “liberating” it from Greek domination. Technically Cyprus was independent and the Greeks were hoping to get it back) So these folks “have history” between them.

Turkey’s declaration of casus belli is not related to the EEZ issue. Turkey claims that the Aegean Sea’s status as a semi-closed sea affords it a special nature (unlike other semi-closed seas as the Adriatic or even fully enclosed seas as the Black Sea). Moreover, Turkey is not among the signatories of UNCLOS which allows countries to expand the width of their territorial waters up to 12 nautical miles (22 km). Even though Turkey is a persistent objector to the relevant article of UNCLOS, it has expanded its own territorial waters in the Black Sea to 12 nautical miles (22 km). And moreover, in 1995 just after Greek parliament ratifications of UNCLOS (as every signatory state was entitled), Turkey declared that if Greece expands the width of her territorial waters over 6 nautical miles (11 km), Turkey would conceive this action as a containment attempt and a direct offense to her sovereignty and thus threatened Greece with a war (casus belli).

According to published maps, the Israeli government has recognized the Exclusive Economic Zones (EEZ) of Greece and Cyprus.
They describe the course of the gas pipeline which will transfer gas produced by American Νoble Εnergy Ltd. from the Leviathan reservoir to Europe, through an undersea pipeline crossing Greece. The gas pipeline should traverse the sea area, which according to international law, is part of the Greek EEZ. By this proposal, Israel recognizes the Greek EEZ in the area and offers an advantage that Greece can use during negotiation procedures to support its claims on the area. In practice, this cooperation will set up a powerful energy coalition between Greece, Cyprus and Israel. The mining and operating part will be undertaken by an American company. “The substance of the issue is that in an effort to protect and secure vital Israeli interests in the Mediterranean Sea, Israel has been left with no choice other than to officially delimit its maritime borders,” an Israeli diplomat told the Hürriyet Daily News & Economic Review.

Oh Dear. Israel has found a load of gas off shore. It is looking to sell that to Europe, and has made a deal with Greece.

Turkey will find that at a minimum ‘disturbing’ as it presses the Greek EEZ Exclusive Economic Zone issue.

Here is what the sea claims would look like with a 12 nautical mile demarcation. You can see that Turkey would feel a bit squeezed in by this.

Greece Turkey 12 nautical mile territorial waters

Greece Turkey 12 nautical mile territorial waters

Compare that with the 6 Nautical Miles at present where there are International Waters for Turkey to use all the way to the Mediterranean:

Greece Turkey 6 Nautical Mile

Greece Turkey 6 Nautical Mile

Making all this particularly silly, of course, is that if Turkey were just willing to back down and play nice they could have access to all of the EU waters. Sigh…

Images from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_dispute

So I can see where it would be a PITA for Turkey. Yet Greece has that right under all sorts of treaties and international law. And, were Turkey to declare casus belli (cause for war) over this, the results for Turkey would be pretty lousy. Unless, of course, it were deciding it was not very interested in being ‘European’ after all and was more aligned with the Muslim World. (An issue with which Turkey has struggled for hundreds of years.)

That Israel is in the mix has got to cause some heartburn too.

The Aegean dispute is a set of interrelated controversial issues between Greece and Turkey over sovereignty and related rights in the area of the Aegean Sea. This set of conflicts has had a large effect on Greek-Turkish relations since the 1970s. It has twice led to crises coming close to the outbreak of military hostilities, in 1987 and in early 1996. The issues in the Aegean fall into several categories:
The delimitation of the territorial waters,
The delimitation of the national airspace,
The delimitation of exclusive economic zones and the use of the continental shelf,
The delimitation of Flight Information Regions (FIR), and their significance for the control of military flight activity,
The issue of the demilitarized status assigned to some of the Greek islands in the area,
Turkish claims of “grey zones” of undetermined sovereignty over a number of small islets, most notably the islets of Imia/Kardak.

Since 1998, the two countries have been coming closer to overcome the tensions through a series of diplomatic measures, particularly with a view to easing Turkey’s accession to the European Union. However, as of 2010, differences over suitable diplomatic paths to a substantial solution are still unresolved.
[...]
Tensions over the 12 mile question ran highest between the two countries in the early 1990s, when the Law of the Sea was going to come into force. On 9 June 1995, the Turkish parliament officially declared that unilateral action by Greece would constitute a casus belli, i.e. reason to go to war. This declaration has been condemned by Greece as a violation of the Charter of the United Nations, which forbids “the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state”

So this is a current issue and not settled. It isn’t idle speculation, it has official parliamentary pronouncements. It also has folks ‘playing chicken’ over the airspace too:

The national airspace

The national airspace is normally defined as the airspace covering a state’s land territory and its adjacent territorial waters. National airspace gives the sovereign state a large degree of control over foreign air traffic. While civil aviation is normally allowed passage under international treaties, foreign military and other state aircraft (unlike military vessels in the territorial waters) do not have a right to free passage through another state’s national airspace. The delimitation of national airspace claimed by Greece is exceptional, as it does not coincide with the boundary of the territorial waters. Greece claims 10 nautical miles (19 km) of airspace, as opposed to currently 6 miles of territorial waters. Since 1974, Turkey has refused to acknowledge the validity of the outer 4-mile belt of airspace that extends beyond the Greek territorial waters. Turkey cites the statutes of the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) of 1948, as containing a binding definition that both zones must coincide. Against this, Greece argues that:

- its 10-nautical-mile (19 km) claim predates the ICAO statute, having been fixed in 1931, and that it was acknowledged by all its neighbours, including Turkey, before and after 1948, hence constituting an established right;
– its 10 mile claim can also be interpreted as just a partial, selective use of the much wider rights guaranteed by the Law of the Sea, namely the right to a 12 mile zone both in the air and on the water;
– Greek territorial waters are set at the 6 mile boundary only because of Turkey’s casus belli (see above).

The conflict over military flight activities has led to a practice of continuous tactical military provocations, with Turkish aircraft flying in the outer 4 mile zone of contentious airspace and Greek aircraft intercepting them. These encounters often lead to so-called “dog-fights”, dangerous flight maneuvers that have repeatedly ended in casualties on both sides. In one instance in 1996, it has been alleged that a Turkish plane was accidentally shot down by a Greek one.

Well, that’s going to be an issue for Turkish entry into the EU… It also raises interesting questions about the US / Obama administration saying it will sell very advanced fighters to Turkey. Will the same be provided to Greece? Or are we setting up a Turkey Shootdown?

There is much more detail in that link, including various nit harvesting efforts over the time of various islands becoming Greek and various treaties (and various folks pulling out of them as Turkey did on at least one occasion) and how that does or does not limit folks.

The bottom line, for me, is that some of this is sequale of W.W.II, W.W.I, the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, and perhaps even earlier to and fro between empires of the past. A bit of a ‘dig here’ into various bits of history… I note in passing that at one time Turkey and Greece swapped ethnic populations and about 1.5 million ethnic Greeks left Anatolia for Greece while a lesser number went the other way. At one time much of Anatolia was Greek. It has been fairly ‘dynamic’ even in recent times:

Greece changes in modern historical times

Greece changes in modern historical times

Original Image

This implies a lot of folks will still ‘have issues’ over some of those losses. Remember, too, that both Greece and Israel were part of the Ottoman Empire (so “Islamic” lands and the Koran insists those must be regained for Islam at some time). Yet the folks who live there did not lose their identity. Greece eventually regained independence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_War_of_Independence

Following years of negotiation, three Great Powers, Russia, the United Kingdom and France, decided to intervene in the conflict and each nation sent a navy to Greece. Following news that combined Ottoman–Egyptian fleets were going to attack the Greek island of Hydra, the allied fleet intercepted the Ottoman–Egyptian fleet at Navarino. Following a week long standoff, a battle began which resulted in the destruction of the Ottoman–Egyptian fleet. With the help of a French expeditionary force, the Greeks drove the Turks out of the Peloponnese and proceeded to the captured part of Central Greece by 1828. As a result of years of negotiation, Greece was finally recognized as an independent nation in May 1832.

The Revolution is celebrated on 25 March by the modern Greek state, which is a national day.

So after 400 or so years of domination by the Ottoman-Turks, Greece finally got it’s independence. That’s not the kind of thing that folks forget, or that gets left out of their history books.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire
(Click through the images there for the attributions)

Ottoman Empire 1683

Ottoman Empire 1683

And what it looked like in 1900:

Ottoman Empire 1900

Ottoman Empire 1900

Then W.W.I happened and everything gets stirred again. W.W.II adds some more stirring. And we end up with the standoff of more recent history.

I suspect that to really internalize the dynamics here, I’ll need to go back and learn about the bit of history between Napoleon and W.W.I as some of the recent dynamics look to be directly driven out of that Royals and Empires era. But that will have to be on another day.

For now, we go ‘back to the present’. We’ve established a deep and long lasting conflict. Recent tensions. There is the dynamic of Israel added. So how is this playing out presently?

http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2010/10/29/turkey-casus-belli-against-greece-remains-in-the-red-book/

The Greek point of view looks at the Turkish “Red Book” of threats and sees Greece still listed as an issue.

Greece could be a friendly country if only there were not these stupid problems…! This is more or less the message that Ankara tries to convey to Athens and the European Union through the revision of the National Security Policy Document. Greece keeps the status of “external threat to Turkey” and thecasus belli ( a cause for war) remains over the 12 miles-dispute.

On Wednesday, Turkey’s National Security Council (MGK) agreed to make radical changes to the National Security Policy document referred to as the “Red Book” or the “Secret Constitution of Turkey”, in which the main internal and external threats to Turkey’s security are outlined.

Unlike earlier reports or better say ‘political leaks to the Turkish press’ , that Turkey would omit the casus belli against Greece from its Red Book, powerful Turkish Generals remained adamant on the issue. No matter what Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan’s goals and Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu’s vision might be of having “zero problems with neighbors”, the Turkish Army will never give up or revise its own foreign policy towards Greece.

So the official political view is ‘make nice’ while the military continues to say ‘yeah, right, we’re not gonna’.

While Greece says ‘So, make nice already, at least if you want to have any hope of EU membership’

http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2010/09/02/greece-dismisses-turkeys-casus-belli-unacceptable-for-an-eu-candidate-to-threaten-with-war-an-eu-member/

Greece dismisses Turkey’s casus belli: Unacceptable for an EU-candidate to threaten with war an EU-member.

Greek Foreign Ministry spokesman dismisses Turkey’s casus belli as “unacceptable” and repeats that extending territorial waters to 12 nautical miles is the right of Greece according to the Law of the Sea. He also says, it is unacceptable for a candidate to European Union to threaten with war a member-country of the EU.

Briefing the media earlier today, Greek FM spokesman, Grigoris Delavekouras, answered questions on Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu statement that Ankara cannot lift the casus belli as an unilateral move towards Greece.

And it all may come down to one little island with a couple of hundred folks living on it. Kastelorizo. There’s a good write up of it here:

http://www.meforum.org/pipes/10630/kastelorizo

That little rock lets the 200 nautical mile economic zone of Greece claim a lot of Mediterranean and blocks Turkey.

Were Athens to claim its full EEZ, Kastelorizo’s presence would make its EEZ contiguous with the EEZ of Cyprus, a factor with great import now, at a moment of massive off-shore gas and oil discoveries. Kastelorizo with an EEZ benefits the emerging Greece-Cyprus-Israel alliance by making it possible to transport either Cypriot and Israeli natural gas (via pipeline) or electricity (via cable) to Western Europe without Turkish permission. This has taken on special urgency since Nov. 4, when Turkey’s minister for energy, Taner Yıldız, announced that his government would not permit Israeli natural gas to transit Turkish territory; Ankara will likely also ban Cypriot exports.

While back in Turkey things are getting very cold…

http://www.todayszaman.com/news-270871-many-schools-and-roads-close-as-snow-wreaks-havoc-across-turkey.html

Many schools and roads close as snow wreaks havoc across Turkey
8 February 2012 / TODAY’S ZAMAN, İSTANBUL
Snow paralyzed life in many provinces across Turkey and led to the closure of many schools and roads on Wednesday.

Heavy snowfall disrupted daily life, leading to the closure of schools and causing numerous roads to become impassable in Kahramanmaraş, Malatya, Elazığ, Çorum, Giresun and Amasya.

The Göksun-Kahramanmaraş highway was closed to traffic for a short time following an avalanche on Wednesday. Numerous vehicles were stuck in standstill traffic. The road opened to traffic after municipal teams worked hard in heavy snowfall to clear the snow from the road. They warned drivers about the condition of the road and recommended that vehicles be equipped with snow chains. Two buses were rescued by municipality teams after they were stranded on the highway for an hour following the avalanche.

Meanwhile, a total of 650 village roads have been blocked due to heavy snowfall in Sinop, Amasya, Çorum and Giresun. With 88 village roads blocked on Wednesday due to snow in Giresun, schools were closed for the day in the districts of Alucra and Çamoluk. Forty-six teams, 22 graders and three snowplows reportedly worked to unblock the roads in Giresun.

When it gets very cold and the climate makes life hard and food short supplied, folks tend to fall back on old animosities as a way to distract the populace and, perhaps, get more resources. We like to think “This time things are different”. I sure hope so. Though it always is to some extent, it never has been to enough extent.

At this point, Turkey is making supportive noises toward Syria and Iran, and against Greece and Israel. The USA is making grumpy faces at Syria and Iran. (And fully supporting Israel). On the sidelines, but only just, is Russia; supporting Syria and Iran. All that is missing is for a German / French / British EU dimension and we’re close to recreating the kind of stuff that lead to W.W.I (and it’s echo W.W.II). This one has a larger China role (quasi-neutral but supportive of Iran, though the source of funding / loans to the USA) so that’s a bit of a wild card.

For me, I’m not going to be doing any “investing” in that area for a while. Money to be in “other places”. Canada. Australia. New Zealand. Selected Latin America. The EU / Middle East is just too dicey. Russia too much a puzzle box. China / India perhaps but they have their own issues.

I don’t know why, exactly, but I just can’t quite shake the feeling that his looks a whole lot like the pre-W.W.I kind of posturing while having echoes of the Revelations Armageddon story with the names changed to more modern ones. In the end, I’m left to simply hope that I’m just being paranoid and “This time IS different”, folks will step back from the brink, and scores will be settle with pen and paper, not bombs, guns, and bodies.

“But hope is not a strategy. -E.M.Smith”…

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About E.M.Smith

A technical managerial sort interested in things from Stonehenge to computer science. My present "hot buttons' are the mythology of Climate Change and ancient metrology; but things change...
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12 Responses to Greece, Turkey and Israel

  1. kuhnkat says:

    You said it.

    As things get colder.

    And resources become scarce.

    Wonder how history will talk about the Utopians that drove the insane Green Energy programs that wasted time and billions and cut back conventional and Nuke energy. They seriously damaged the world economy leaving everyone WORSE!! Who will survive and control information??

  2. R. de Haan says:

    What’s important to know is that Germany is also against a full EU membership of Turkey.
    However the EU over the past years made a list of subjects that needed improvement for Turkey to qualify as a member and has demanded that Turkey removed the army from it’s dominant role.

    The Turk army was appointed as a guard over Turkey’s secular democratic system to keep it from being dominated by Islam. (architect Attaturk). Thanks to this European demands to put the army under control of the government Turkey has now turned into an Islamic State.

    This becomes very visible in it’s role of chairing the Arab League.

    The Arab League representing all Islamic countries world wide has gained a powerful position within the UN an after their Cairo Meeting twenty years ago where they decided to change the UN Chapter of Human Rights putting them under Allah.

    The Dutch a few years ago have made the argument that Turkey can only become an EU member if they give up their membership of the Arab League, stop threatening Israel and solve their conflict with Greece.

    Unfortunately France and other members are not open to any sensible suggestions and the current crises within the Eurozone has turned the EU in a house of cards anyhow.

    So you’re right, conflict and war are around the corner and nobody knows what will happen if the Iran conflict escalates and Israeli’s fly raids on Iran.

    Turkey has considerable missile defenses and quite a big army.

    From a historic point of view Greece and Turkey will be cat and dog for years to come. The recent friendship an military cooperation between israel and Greece rather worked like a red blanket on a bull.

    The gas exploration near the coast of Cyprus by Israel is a powder keg ready to explode.

  3. Baa Humbug says:

    I grew up in Ankara in the 60s when these sorts of posturing were common.
    We spent many a night under curfews with black sheets across our windows.

    In your ‘dig here’ studies, I would suggest a clear demarkation between the old Ottoman (Osmanli) Turks and the modern Ataturk Turks.
    Remember Turkey was an occupied country after WW1 with the Greeks occupying much of the east. When the Greeks retreated under Turkish advance, Ataturk could have continued chasing them westward and claiming many of those islands “under Turkeys nose”.
    But he didn’t, declaring he was not interested in claiming what wasn’t ours in the first place. “Bir kariş istemiyoruz, bir kariş vermiyeceyiz”. (we don’t want an extra handspan, (of land) we will not give a handspan)

    I would suggest the UN 12mile EEZ is not and should never have been considered universal, as the Aegean problem proves. How does one claim a 12 mile zone when your neighbour is 100 metres away and you can hear the clinking of their tea spoons during silent nights?

    Regards the Turkish military, heaven help the region if the fundemantalist a$$holes take full control of Turkey. Any strongarm posturing by the military against Greece will pale into insignificance if Turkey is ever governed by the Koran.

    I don’t defend Turkey in all matters of foreign relations. Selfish acts are no stranger to many nations, especially those located in such strategically sensitive places as Turkey is. But to stuff up diplomacy and “push” Turkey towards an Islamic state (as the idiot French are doing) will be the worst mistake the region makes since that pommy idiot Chamberlain grovelled to Hitler.

    I think this current verbal stoush with Greece is Turkish pollies being a$$holes trying to take advantage of Greeces current financial woes. I wouldn’t worry too much about it.
    Keep an eye on who gets promoted to the military top brass. If it’s ever someone with a Koran in one hand, start worrying.

    p.s. Though I’m not up to speed on the subject, I would have thought turkey didn’t have too much energy worries since forging many strong ties with the energy rich caucasus nations and numerous pipelines laid down over the years.

  4. Ralph B says:

    Yes this is eerily similar to the times just before WW1. Read Deadnaught and A World Undone two excellent histories that go in great depth of the politics that brought on that war. An interesting parallel is how Germanys gov’t being so young their parliament was still feeling itself out allowing the military to become far to involved in foreign policy (Bismark did not want to take Alsace and Lorraine from France after 1870)..the Schlieffen Plan dragging Britain into the war. Compare that to the UK where the Army was always under full civilian control. Look at Japan and Pearl Harbor as another example.

    I don’t see Turkey ever being allowed in the EU as it is too much of an economic threat to Germany. Right now Germany has little to no competition and would be loathe to give that up. Turkey has a large industrial base and lower labor costs and would take a large part of the pie.

  5. Pascvaks says:

    Worlds colliding, as always, and all happening on one little planet in the middle of nowhere. Utopians and Daydreamers and One-Worlders think we’re all so close, so human, so able to “get along with each other” if we only sit down and talk like reasonable, intelligent people, ergo The League of Nations, oooops scratch that, and the Great, the Fantastic, the Incomparable… drum roll.. “UN”. What wrong with Greece? Nothing, if you’re Greek. What’s wrong with Turkey? Nothing, if you’re a Turk. What you see and how you feel all depends on where you stand. (And who raped and killed your great, great grandmother, etc., etc., “casus belli” ad nausium.)

    The US, Russia, China, (and in a bumbling, 16 Stooges Kind’a Way, the Great “Europa”) not only have different languages, different objectives at every level of “The Game”, but think like they’re from different Worlds. (Imagine that!;-) Then there’s the Turks, the Greeks, the Syrians, the Isralis, and the 33 other bit-players in the band at this Mixed Ethnic Wedding where everyone’s carrying automatic weapons.

    Best advice I ever heard anyone give about International Relations, “Don’t do anything you don’t have to, remember that everything you do and don’t do will have consequences for the next ten thousand years, or longer, if you absolutely must do something, or not do something, be real careful, walk slowly, talk softly, and carry a Bigger Stick than everyone else. One final thing, stay alert, don’t get slack and stay any longer than you have to in someone else’s world.”

  6. adolfogiurfa says:

    @Pascvaks: It seems that they will fight for who owns the new GLACIERS OVER EUROPE :-)

  7. adolfogiurfa says:

    @Pascvaks: Fortunately CLIMATE IS DEMOCRATIC !

  8. cm says:

    I was watching Max Keiser on RT today(he’s a bit too shouty for my liking :-) and he reckons that Greece is busy spending lots of it’s bail-out cash right now buying lots of weapons from Germany.

  9. E.M.Smith says:

    An interesting Greek connection…

    http://www.farosradio.gr/en/faros-news/item/2006-iran-greece-and-the-west’s-oil-war.html

    Greece gets 35% of it’s oil from Iran (as Iran will sell on credit… and others will not).

    Greece was looking forward to a Bulgarian pipeline to deliver Russian oil more cheaply and reliable, now on hold from US Pressure.

    Greece is pissed about more economic pressure as it is ‘innocent’ in all this.

    It also looks like a Greek Dodge may be in he works, based on a very old debt owed by Germany:

    • Germany owes many hundreds of billions of euros to Greece from the money the Nazis stole (“Forceful loan” from occupied Greece to Nazi Germany). Hitler started repaying the “loan” back to Greece but after the German collapse, the next German governments do not discuss the German debt to Greece. This amount together with all recognized German financial obligations towards Greece, surpasses 700,000,000,000 (700 billion) euros, in today’s prices if we take into account the interest rates. There is NO EXAGERATION in this, this is money Germany REALLY owes to Greece.
    • The corruption money from defence procurement, the C4I System for the 2004 Olympic Games, etc are many tens of billion of euros and European (especially German) companies have a large share in this money laundering. This is money from Greek taxpayers which went to the pockets of sponsors of European (and other) political parties.
    • Part of the Greek bonds, are corruption payments in defence and public procurement projects to foreign companies-political parties.
    • The Greeks DID NOT want to abandon drachma. They did not want the euro, because there was no benefit for Greece, on the contrary the Greek society was damaged. Goldman Sachs, with the (German-educated) prime minister Kostas Simitis and in knowledge of Washington and Berlin, altered the Greek financial data. Berlin wanted one more country into the Eurozone, Washington wanted Greece to be used as trigger if it wanted to create problems in the European Union.

    It goes on to basically call the EU government a pack of corrupt…

    You know, all in all, I think the article may be onto something…

    While a bit ‘conspiracy theoryish’ for my tastes, well, collusion is only a short step from conspiracy …

  10. adolfogiurfa says:

    @E.M.: Surprising!!. It must be true….as the song says: “Sorpresas te da la vida…”

    http://mat-rodina.blogspot.com/2012/02/greeces-forbidden-cure.html

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