Biden – Rude, Mean, Parrot

I’m watching the V.P. Debates. It’s “informative”. Biden is constantly laughing at serious things. Interrupting just about any point being discussed / presented by Ryan, and injecting lots of “overdone” facial expressions and sniditude. Then he’ll do a ‘rant’ with a noticeably angry tone. When it comes to reason and discussing “issues”, he is largely just a parrot of the left wing talking points. Even when these are clearly out of touch with reality.

I’ll update this posting later (especially if I can find a youtube after it’s over). But for now, this is my “take” on things.

FWIW, I’d basically ignored Biden (as, I think, had most folks). Having seen him in this discussion, he impresses me as someone with either a personality disorder, or some medication issues. The idea that he’s one step from the presidency frankly scares me more than Iran getting a nuke.

“Angry White Man Rant” and “Left Wing Policies” has historically been a very bad mix. (Stalin, Hitler,…)

Ryan comes across as a bit too intellectual, and either too polite or a bit subservient, but that may just be ‘in the context’ of “Badgering Biden”…

Sigh.

If I were interviewing for a ‘new hire’, I’d be checking my watch and deciding how long to continue to interview to be “polite” before walking Biden to the door. Were I interviewing to be hired, I’d be checking my watch and deciding how quickly to walk out…

Were it Ryan? I’d be asking if he’d like to spend some time over lunch…

To me, that pretty much sums up the deal.

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About E.M.Smith

A technical managerial sort interested in things from Stonehenge to computer science. My present "hot buttons' are the mythology of Climate Change and ancient metrology; but things change...
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35 Responses to Biden – Rude, Mean, Parrot

  1. BobN says:

    Bidden is debating like a bully, but to some extent its working style wise. If I listen to the words Ryan makes way more sense. I think the winner will be determined on how smart the people are in understanding what is said. I hate the Bidden sneer!

  2. omanuel says:

    I believe we are now on the verge of economic and social collapse worldwide, and very likely “truth will out” before the end of the current year, perhaps even before the Presidential Election in Nov 1945.

    It doesn’t matter if we elect Mutt or Jeff – two sides of the same coin. Every US President – except John F. Kennedy and perhaps Dwight D. Eisenhower – apparently worked to advance the concept of a one-world government after Allied leaders were deceived into supporting the establishment of the United Nations on 24 Oct 1945.

    See: http://www.my-jia.com/The_Flight_of_the_Hog_Wild/
    And: http://omanuel.wordpress.com/about/#comment-1292
    And: http://omanuel.wordpress.com/about/#comment-1369

    The wrong side has temporarily won the age-old battle of The EGO versus The FORCE by simultaneously removing:
    _ a.) Constitutional limits on government, and
    _ b.) Integrity in government research

    I regret that I could not decipher the puzzle before observing the strange response of world leaders and leaders of the scientific community to Climategate emails in Nov 2009.

    With deep regrets,
    -Oliver K. Manuel
    Former NASA Principal
    Investigator for Apollo

  3. p.g.sharrow says:

    Invite Ryan to lunch, a good idea, maybe a long lunch so he can develop his ideas in full.
    Biden can give you all of his knowledge in 5 minutes and will not let you get a word in edge wise. Not my choice of a lunch companion. pg

  4. BobN says:

    @ Omanuel – Who gets elected may not matter regarding the crash, who puts the pieces back to gather is huge. I know I don’t trust Obama, he will form a Socialist government. I’m not sure I trust Romney, but the other is known in my mind. Wither way we are #@5&*#.

    Looks like the new battle plan for Obama might be to get in Romney’s face, the next debate could be off the charts.

  5. There were some blatant falsehoods on Biden’s part, including his assertion that he voted against the wars. Not only did he vote for invading Afghanistan, he was the most powerful Democrat in the Senate pushing hard to let Bush take Saddam Hussein out of Iran. I found one of his speeches in Senate records, and transcribed the relevant bit here, where he was chastising Senator Byrd for hesitating about invading Iraq. The speech was exactly ten years ago yesterday, in fact:
    http://www.dehavelle.com/2008/10/the-vp-debate-senator-biden-on-iraq-october-10-2002/

    Biden uttered many other falsehoods, but this one was so blatant I was surprised.

    ===|==============/ Keith DeHavelle

  6. George says:

    Biden would have come across well to people who were going to vote for him anyway and poorly to just about everyone else. Even the major journalists were tweeting about it. He came across as a jackass and not the political symbol sort. One tactic of Biden’s that I resented was that he would allow Ryan to talk when the subject was on something Biden knew his base would disagree with. But whenever Ryan would get into a subject that Biden knew resonated well with Americans in general, he would either interrupt, interject with comment, or sometimes just flat start talking over Ryan.

    I have seen evidence today that the Obama campaign is in deep trouble. Five states were moved from “lean Obama” to “tossup” by Real Clear Politics. A new Florida poll is out showing Romney +7 there. One polling outfit said the other day they were done polling Florida for the cycle because Romney’s going to win it and there’s no reason to continue polling that state.

    My take is Biden would have resonated with his base and alienated just about everyone else including “old school” Democrats. This woman’s reaction seems to be typical:

  7. Sandra Furno says:

    I agree that Joe Biden acted like a buffoon. I have never seen such rude and disrespectful behavior in any debate, Biden make a complete fool of himself. If he were a teenager in a high school debate class he would have been reprimanded by the teacher. This is the vice president of the United States? On the contrary, Paul Ryan who is many years younger than Biden seemed light years away from him in maturity, stability and class. I am ashamed of Joe Biden, he disrespected his opponent and the citizens of this country by acting like an unstable fool.

  8. Over in Europe, this is just about the first we’ve heard from Joe Biden since the last election. I’ll get to watch the videos later to get the whole thing, but the excerpts were not good. He could maybe remember the nuclear button code (00000000 until recently) but would you trust him with it?

  9. Pascvaks says:

    “We” generally seem to think Biden was a pain in the ass, made an ass of himself, etc.. “The” question is what did the 5% think? Biden stroked the Dem Base and the left leaning Fence Posts in the Middle; result of debate for the Left = No Change. Ryan stroked the Rep Base and right leaning Fence Posts in the Middle; result of debate for the Right = No Change. What happened during that 90 minutes to the 5% who somehow thought that the VP Debate was important to them in making up their wavering minds on who to vote for for President? Alas, “that” is the question. FWIW I think that the men in that mix went with Ryan. I don’t have the basic programming to even hazard a guess how the gals went. I have a feeling that married women with children pretty much liked Ryan and will vote Romney. The divorced single moms, the career ladies, the old maids, and the progressive grannies in the 5% (I doubt there are many of them in the 5%) will say they loved Biden and will NOW vote for Obama.

    How much did/will the Biden-Ryan Debate impact the Election? If Obama wins, Biden will get the credit in the history book drafts written in the farm country of Maryland but it won‘t be in the final edited product in any classroom. Did Biden pull Obama’s fat out of the fire, give him a second chance to shine? We’ll see.

    Biden hasn’t done an interview in 5 months, yet he was in top form, how? Me thinks the SS, and the DNC, got the questions and ‘prepped’ the Old Man on a waterboard.

  10. Paul Hanlon says:

    I was impressed with Ryan. He stayed calm, courteous and on message despite Biden’s tactics. He looked like he could be a capable VP, and that was all he had to do.

    All Obama has left now is to go out all guns blazing, and if Romney can keep his composure and show Obama up to be the thin skinned and elitist snob that he is, I think he’ll go on to win the nomination. Obama is not a good orator when he doesn’t have a teleprompter (too many umms and uhhs), his “Hope and Change” message is neutered because he is now the incumbent, he had two years of uncontested power, and he blew it with the decisions he took. Should be an interesting month.

  11. adolfogiurfa says:

    What would you do if defending your income and the future of your grand-grand children and what if you, being a matured man, do not defend anything?

  12. philjourdan says:

    I purposefully stayed out of the fray until now – as I wanted to get a feel for what others were thinking. Here’s what I learned so far.

    One poster nailed it when he said Biden played to the base. The far left is ecstatic about Biden’s performance. But that is a big “who cares”. It is not like they were even thinking of voting for Romney Ryan before. So the left (and Stephanopolous) will call the debate for Biden. He did ok.

    Raddatz was a disaster. As a shill for the left, she excelled. But nothing else. She did not control the debate, instead allowing Biden too. Some will argue Lehrer allowed Romney to – but Romney did not monopolize Obama’s time.

    Ryan held his own. He came armed with facts, was presidential in his presentation, and respectful of his opponents responses. In other words, he came across as the “nice” guy. The conservative base is pleased with his performance, but probably rate the event as a toss up on substance.

    The center (the ones that matter) are looking at 2 things. An unknown (Ryan), and a Goof Ball (Biden). They were assured in both respects as Biden managed to remain gaff free, and Ryan came across as knowledgeable. So in that respect it was a draw.

    The final factor was the style. And that is going to reflect badly on Biden. He came across as a bully. Constantly interrupting Ryan and not allowing points to be made. Raddatz came across as a helpless ditz who was not doing her job. Ryan came across as calm, cool and collected. To the middle, Ryan is someone they can talk to. Biden is someone who lectures them. For a child, the lecturing is probably sufficient as they are used to being told what to do. For adults, that does not work (at least for those cognizant enough to be paying attention).

    Bottom line – the debate will have virtually no effect. No one is electing either man to be president. Neither caused a problem for the top of the ticket, nor did any distractions cause an issue. It will not help Obama’s slide, but it will not accelerate it either.

    The best summation is George (@7:10am) – “Biden would have come across well to people who were going to vote for him anyway and poorly to just about everyone else.”

  13. Allen says:

    I really wish we could have an UNBIASED moderator. Radditz was definitely favoring Biden. Every time that Ryan was ready to sock it to him, well, it was time to run on to another topic, thank you very much. Yet, when it was time for Joe to talk, well, go ahead Mr. VP. Take your time. And then Joe and Marty ganged up on Ryan a few times. Give me a break. I watched for about an hour and couldn’t stand it any more. Biden made me feel very uncomfortable. And I’m a man.

  14. Steve C says:

    Sigh. Vote Punch or vote Judy, you’ll still get the Evil Bastard with his dirty hands firmly inserted in the nether regions of both. It’s him who’s planning to put the pieces back together when the smelly stuff hits the fan, and however it goes, it’ll be … smelly. As we used to say, if voting changed anything, they’d abolish it.

  15. adolfogiurfa says:

    @E.M.:Why not publish another POST for a wider public instead of this “show” which was intended only for you to watch and believe.

  16. R. de Haan says:

    16 trillion debt is hilarious: http://stevengoddard.wordpress.com/2012/10/12/16-trillion-debt-is-hilarious/
    Biden herassing Ryan to come up with a budget is quite daring for for a government that hasn’t produced any budged over the past three years. For me Ryan was the clear winner of the debate but it’s going to take years for the US to recover. Europe is doomed.

  17. Judy F. says:

    I was extremely put off by Biden’s behavior. His exaggerated expressions and bullying left me totally cold. I know we vote for the top man on the ticket, but I always think about “what if”. I would not feel at all comfortable with Bozo Biden running the country.

    I worked for a while with a lady from Germany. She told me that Americans have no idea what other countries think of them and she commented on how biased our news reporting was. She said that we view things how we want them to be, not how they are. I am sure that she was speakiing from her own views and experience, but it has made me think about our actions abroad and why our foreign policy is what it is. I was upset with Biden’s remarks about the situation in Benghazi. I think he was playing fast and loose with the facts. I didn’t like his discussion of Afghanistan, thinking that it is not good policy to leave a country on an arbitrary date, regardless of whether our goals are met or not. I thought Ryan was trying to make that point, but was over run by Biden.

    If I had been running the debate I would have used a buzzer each time Biden interrupted- all 82 times if the count is correct. Had he continued, I would have given him a time out or a time penalty. But they didn’t ask me.

    At the end of the debate, when the candidates were leaving the stage, Biden turned and pointed his finger at someone, and gave “the smirk”. It was the perfect used car salesman or slimey politician “good old boys” gesture. I thought it pretty well summed up Biden’s performance.

    I thought Ryan was a little tentative at first- like maybe he had a case of nerves. He did get better as the night went on. I wished he had pushed a little harder. Personally, I would have shaken my finger at Biden and told him to shut up. But then, I am a woman of a certain age and could probably get away with. :)

    I have said to my friends that I think both Romney and Ryan are principled people. I may not agree with everything they say, but I think that both of them are guided by a solid, moral compass. I don’t get that feeling with either Obama or Biden. I think they are guided by power and political expediency. When it gets down to the nitty gritty for me, I will take the moral person.

  18. George says:

    Interesting poll out immediately following the debate. These were “robocalls” to California. This is an interesting find for voters who changed their expected vote on the basis of this debate:

    * 30% switched from the Obama ticket to the Romney ticket.
    * 29% switched from undecided to the Romney ticket.
    * A total of 59% switched to the Romney ticket.

    * 20% switched from the Romney ticket to the Obama ticket.
    * 20% switched from undecided to the Obama ticket.
    * A total of 40% switched to the Obama ticket.

    So of the 22% of the respondents who reported changing their leaning as a result, 13% went for Romney and 9% went for Obama or potentially created a 4 point bounce for Romney. That is actually important because a poll out yesterday showed Obama +10 in California. That would now be down to Obama+6 if the results of that poll hold across the state.

  19. J Martin says:

    George said ~…

    Which means that Obama will get a second term. By the end of that term the climate may be beginning to inflict a cold reality on the masses and so the subsequent election can be held in an atmosphere unpolluted by religious cagw beliefs.

    Though I suspect that any real cold could be ten years away.

    Obama may have been saved by the US summer. If the US had experienced the UK summer then Romney would be in front. We had one good week, the rest was cloud and rain, all of it cold.

  20. George says:

    Oh, I don’t think Obama is going to get a second term. It looks like his campaign is in total collapse at this point. RCP has removed 6 states in the past 2 days from “leans Obama” to “tossup”. Obama has only 6 states left that are “strong Obama” or “leans Obama”. Florida now shows Romney +7 and a poll out yesterday showed Virginia +7. A D+8 poll in Ohio has Obama +1. Obama’s toast. The campaign is in collapse.

  21. E.M.Smith says:

    @BobN:

    What Biden said that was of substance is that the next President likely gets to replace a Supreme or two (and the ‘conservative’ ones). That is just SO huge, it make everything else fade in comparison. The Dims are looking for an FDR “Packed Court” wet dream again.

    @Keith DeHavelle

    So a desperate and slightly dodgy politician lied? I’m shocked, shocked I say! ;-)

    @George:

    Yes… “Buffoon” is about right. Angry buffoon even closer…

    @Sandra Furno:

    That was what struck me. And he’s one “aw shit” away from having the Nuclear Button and sending armies against folks he doesn’t like. Not good..

    @Simon Derricutt :

    I’d not trust him to control a single tank unit…

    @Pascvaks:

    Near as I can tell, V.P.s end up as footnotes in the history books if they are mentioned at all. Most likely he’ll simply be forgotten.

    I did get the feeling he had been ‘scripted’ a bit on what questions were coming / likely…

    @Paul Hanlon:

    Interesting? Uh, yeah…

    If we’re lucky, the next presidential debate will fall into one of two camps: More hesitating and unsure without the TOTUS crutches; or “Angry thin skinned unstable” show ala Biden. If we’re not lucky, he’ll learn something in the dozens of hours of debate practice they are pumping him through right now…

    @Adolfo:

    You talking to me? Sounds like “typical life”… folks have been defending “them and theirs” forever…

    Also not clear what you want in another posting… I’m up to my eyeballs in “defensive computing” so that I can continue to operate but with a lower risk profile (so postings have slowed), but think I’m nearly to a ‘slow down’ point on that. This debate is not just for me to see and believe. It is to enable evaluating the two characters (both meanings…)

    We’re going to get one of the other anyway… I’ll get back to other stuff in a few days.

    @Philjourdan & Allen:

    The Ditzy Raddatz did impress me as having a “timing agenda”. Don’t know how “planned” it was, but it was clearly intentional.

    @SteveC:

    For many things, yes, I think that’s true. Yet some things, like those Supreme Appointments that are likely, it WILL make a big difference…

    But yes, IMHO, the Debt Bomb is going to blow up and the Demographic Bomb is clearly in progress. It’s a ‘no win’, so the only real question is “Big Boom! at the end!” or “slow poison starting now”…

    @R. de Haan:

    Yes, the E.U. got the Nobel Peace Prize for Stupidity today… that pretty much confirms it is toast…

    @Judy F. :

    I like to think of picking a president / vp as picking a national “Dad and Mom”. You want some kind of comfort from “Mom” that if Dad gets sick she can keep things going… and is a nice, if strong, person. Biden gave me none of that.

    Yes, Ryan needed a bit more strength in his presentation. But then I think Biden may have been ‘baiting him’. Trying to give him a choice of “blow up” vs “be a wimp”. I think Ryan could have done a little better in avoiding the “brainy wimp” mode and shown more assertiveness; but letting Biden run wild may well have worked better …

    My solution for the “talking over” is simple. Put each microphone on a switch. The guy who has 2 minutes, also gets the live mic… At 1:50 the light goes yellow. At 2 it goes red and the other guy gets the live mic…

    @George:

    Wow! That kind of swap in Kalifornia? We of the Perpetual Lady Of Stupid – Pelosi?

    Numbers ought to be even better in less “loony lefty” States.

    @J Martin:

    Don’t know that US voters are voting the weather. Getting a paycheck is much more an issue.

    @George:

    One can only hope. We’ll see…

  22. Ian W says:

    J Martin says:
    12 October 2012 at 9:16 pm

    George said ~…

    Which means that Obama will get a second term. By the end of that term the climate may be beginning to inflict a cold reality on the masses and so the subsequent election can be held in an atmosphere unpolluted by religious cagw beliefs.

    Though I suspect that any real cold could be ten years away.

    Obama may have been saved by the US summer. If the US had experienced the UK summer then Romney would be in front. We had one good week, the rest was cloud and rain, all of it cold.

    As someone who spends time in both countries — the reporting of Obama in the UK is as biased as the reporting of Tony Blair was in the USA. In the USA Blair was that well spoken smiling guy with the nice accent; in UK Obama is that well spoken smiling guy with the nice accent. The detailed policies and what they are doing is lost in the transatlantic crossing. The UK has zero idea of how the US is a federal republic and see the president’s position as being ‘in charge of the country’ – they are unaware of the separation of powers and the State’s rights. Yet you go to UK and you will hear all the complaints about being ‘run from Brussels’ – the 10th Amendment equivalent in Europe is ‘subsidiarity’ and both are widely ignored by the power hungry in DC and Brussels (as the Greeks among the PIIGS will attest). No-one in UK is up to speed with the end-runs around congress with the Executive Instructions and the EPA regulations. In the same way that nobody in the USA is up to speed with the problems of the European Court of Human Rights and other EU edicts.

    The thing that is amazing to me is the close parallels in what is happening and the rates at which things are happening both sides of the Atlantic. It is as if the EU (Etats Uni) and the EU are dancing to the same choreography and the same tune. Someone somewhere is pulling strings, conducting the melody being danced to, and, expecting to make a lot of money and gain a lot of power/governance in the next 6 months.

  23. Pascvaks says:

    @IanW – “Someone somewhere is pulling strings, conducting the melody being danced to, and, expecting to make a lot of money and gain a lot of power/governance in the next 6 months.”

    Ian, I know you’re being metaphorical but I hear that a lot, “They are pulling strings..”. I guess I’m too thick headed to see or believe it; that a glump of folks are doing this to the rest of the world. Someone rather close to me keeps saying ‘Soros… Soros… Soros…!’ (and his mob of idiots); I can’t see how folks jump from the opportunists to the Great Conspiracy of “THEY”. To me the world is like a herd of Elephants in the middle of a field with a couple dozen mice;-)

  24. Ian W says:

    @Pascvaks
    The choreography and timing is too exact. The parallels with what is being said and done in the US and what is being said and done in Europe are there for all to see. After a series of actions each mirrored on the opposite side of the Atlantic – it becomes difficult to see any other way than a specific effort to act in concert. Both sides of the Atlantic are approaching fiscal cliffs with many seeing the end of 2012 as a likely time to reach the edge. Many of the reasons for approaching that cliff are the same. Both have over-regulated (mis-regulated?) the banks and are inflating away the value of their fiat currencies. Both have gone from possession of large food reserves to no food reserves in the last decade – just as we leave the 7 good years and enter the 7 bad. Both are over-regulating power industries and wealth creation industries while increasing the number of parasitic ‘service’ industries and government ‘posts’.
    Traveling as I do from one to the other – I see these continually mirrored actions running to similar timetables. To the extent that saying it’s only coincidence is less believable ;-)

  25. BobN says:

    @ Ian – I think your right in your assessment, but it seems to unbelievable to be true, so at times I think its mass hysteria caused by then internet. I then re-look at the data points and say its real. If its real, what do you do?

  26. Peter Offenhartz says:

    @E.M.Smith
    I am curious: Are you at all surprised that your entire commentariat seems to agree with your views? And are you surprised that almost no one comments on the substance of the debate, i.e., arguments over women’s health issues, Obamacare, appropriate taxation levels, appropriate military spending, and so on: All of which were touched upon during the debate.

    I enjoy reading what you and your friends have to say. It is an education. I believe, of course, that you are all a bunch of [self-edited], but I am trying to understand how a group of people can become so collectively mis-guided. I’ll keep reading. It’s a challenge to my imagination!

  27. R. de Haan says:

    E.M @R. de Haan:

    “Yes, the E.U. got the Nobel Peace Prize for Stupidity today… that pretty much confirms it is toast…”

    Awarding the Noble Peace Price to Europe is a joke.
    Europe is on fire and the populations won’t accept any centralized governance, not even in Germany: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-10-13/after-starting-riots-greece-merkel-booed-germany-next The European Union made a mess of handling the Yogoslavia conflict, it’s relentless expantion politics pushed Georgia at the brink of war and Ukraine into the arms of Russia again and it’s export policies and the bio fuel mandate have set the Middle East and Afica on fire. Never forget that the so called Arab Spring started with food riots. And there is the armed assault on Libya. No basis for a Nobel peace price a all.

  28. E.M.Smith says:

    @Ian W:

    Extraordinarily well said. I’ve noticed the same “pattern”. The Man (people) Behind The Curtain have figured out A Method that involves taking national sovereignty via a supranational commission that can be controlled (be it Brussels, or the UN, or various NGOs).

    Who are “they”? The usual suspects… Bilderbergers, Club Of Rome, Soros, the guy in China who’s name I’ll remember when by body temperature rises above 97.8 F ;-)

    Hey, I’m in the “wake up cycle” with “first coffee” so core temp is down, brain is slow, etc. In about 3 hours I’ll be all hot and fast ;-) Peak temp runs about 99.3 F most days. That’s when I’m at my best (but can’t stay at it all day or would burn something out … at least, that’s why I think I have the deep daily cycle…)

    @Pascvaks:

    It’s really not that hard to see. They get together every year to plan, then you see nearly simultaneous shifts in “position” come from different places all over the planet. Far too ‘coordinated’ to be mimicry or ‘a fad’ and far to fast to be ‘evolution’ of ideas. Council On Foreign Relations is one of the meeting places (but looks to be the “generals” and a few “colonels”) while the Bilderbergers look like the big wigs. Then there are the Incredibly Rich independents. Soros et al have funded massive organizations “with a purpose” leveraging YOUR money against you via “government grants” to NGOs.

    It is definitely NOT accidental and NOT just evolving via benign interactions in the public eye.

    Where I diverge from the “Paranoid Conspiracy Theory” is that IMHO there are still strongly competing interests inside the cabal. So Russia is largely out for Russia and China will always be playing for China to win. It is only the Euro-US west that is idiotic enough to think we’re all ‘cooperating’… Oh, and as long as The House Of Saud is guaranteed enough money to buy God, they are on board (and pushing to plant Mosques and Islam globally in their bit of self interest…)

    The place where I think OManuel has it right is in that I think these “Powers that be” got their pants scared off of them when, post W.W.II, they realized that for the first time THEY were on the front line, not just their “useful idiots” in uniform. Nuclear wars are like that….

    At that point they got together to find a way to avoid that outcome. One region at a time got pulled into The Club. Some as committed founders, some as “hangers on” hoping for some table scraps. Some as “inside and posing but not committed – staying as long as they get goodies”. IMHO the present Russia and China are in that last group. Russia for the EU Carbon Credit money flow and lots of oil / gas money. China to dominate global production via the carbon-free-ride and idiotic western financial policies. (Note Rich Evil Bastards making buckets of money out of both. Warren Buffet was an early investor in Petro China…)

    The “Great Unknown” is: Is this a good thing or a bad thing?

    I can see a case for both way. Less “stupid wars”, but many more “small wars to discipline” those who are not playing along with The Cabal (like cleaning up that ‘old pattern’ problem of Petty Dictators in Egypt, Syria, Lybia, Iraq…. as we un-do the remnants of the Cold War structure built by the CIA and Daddy Bush / Reagan) Less economic conflict, but more “dominance of a favored few”. It is simply true that democracy is unstable and the “madness of crowds” is a real threat to civilization. Some kind of control / dampening of oscillation is needed. But it is also true that power (reveals) corrupts and HUGE power corrupts hugely… So we’re seeing a lot of ‘corruption’ in the ‘leaders’ today (like AlGore getting a $200 Million “consolation prize” out of bailouts of his stupid “green” investments via the “stimulus” money raided from the US Taxpayers).

    Personally, I expect this to “end badly” as the people stop playing along with the raid. We’re seeing some of that now in Spain, Italy, Greece… and as the financial collapse (that I think is desired to ‘take America down a peg and break the hegemony’ ) being engineered has “unexpected consequences”. (Frankly, I think the derivatives bubble was a surprise to the ‘financial engineers’ as they have responded with draconian centralization of control over finances…) The end game of all that (mixed with the divergent yet suppressed urges of Islam and China and Korea and…) is a nuclear war. Just what I think “They” were trying to avoid. But hey, nobody is perfect ;-)

    So in a very strange way, I’m agnostic on “Them”. IF they would work more for everyone and less for the Few Rich Evil Bastards, and IF they did it well enough to achieve global stability in freedom; hey I’d be a supporter. Unfortunately it looks like “They” are subject to the same universals of all time. Power corrupting (or revealing corruption). Greed for themselves. The desire to control via central authority (that always ends in tyranny and war). The unwillingness to accept that devolved power and “a cooperating anarchy of fiefdoms” works best as an ‘emergent system’ (aka capitalism). Then there are the internal stresses. Islam vs Everyone-else. EU Socialism vs American Capitalism. Southern Dependency / Oppression vs Colonial Oppressors (yes, those sores are still there). China out for itself and racist about it to boot (though polite enough not to call us stupid white guys to our faces). Russia playing for position.

    So in the end, I expect those internal forces to lead to a collapse or corruption of the “Controlling Core Cabal” while the external FUBARS will result in populations not accepting the outcomes. When that gets bad enough, something big is gonna blow…

    The part I don’t yet ken is who wins, and when… The “how” is likely lit off by a nuclear war somewhere on a line from Israel / Middle East through Pakistan / India and into N.Korea / (China / S. Korea) With Russia “on the side” likely to be pulled into any / all of them and the EU following. Then the USA gets a Big Issue to think on… (After that, Africa and South America break up back into natural nations of self interest and we start over…)

    Oddly, I think Australia / New Zealand and the Pacific Islands largely get a “pass” out of it all, with the only real big risk being if Indonesia feels free to “spread Islam” over all of them once the folks north of them are rubble… But by that point the “future visioning” is way disconnected from enough actual data to have validity and starts to grade into pure fantasy…

    @BobN:

    What to do? Not much you CAN do. Mostly prepare a safe place for the kids and hunker down and wait. Look for places to pour some sand in the right gears. (Like my small contribution to derailing the AGW Artificial Paranoia).

    @R. de Haan:

    The Nobel Committee has become a political arm of a particular Political Power Structure. So it can serve to give insight to who is favored and what is being promoted. Beyond that it is useless and the reputation it had is being turned to shit at a very fast rate. It is, as you pointed out, become a bad joke. A consolation prize for failed idiots.

    On the one hand, Europe has many fine folks and a lot of intelligence and independence. That makes it relatively ungovernable by an Empire Wannabe. On the other hand, it regularly runs to put in power an Elite Few who have great power grab tendencies and lust for Authority and Empire. IMHO it is that “strain” between the population and the leadership that has led to the long and deep history of wars in Europe. IMHO that history is not done being written…

    Greed and Power Lust has pushed the European Leadership into doing very stupid things for Europe. The folks are not accepting the result. Fuse is lit…. They tried to extend it to the USA (and, clever us, we found a way to ‘third party the stupid’ of the CRA via SIVs et all that ended back in Europe ;-) and the housing bubble blew up. Now we’ve got frothing at the mouth hyper-regulation being pushed and our economy is stagnating. The “folks” are not taking well to that either. China is winning big, and playing for dominance / time to win.

    The end game of all those trends is collapse and war. The “Leadership” has a fantasy that “with just some more central control” they can assure peace and prosperity (for them) forever. They are fools sucking their own exhaust and playing badly. But too isolated from reality to see the problems… Peace and prosperity come from more competing power centers, the rule of law, and a capitalist competition / mutual benefit.

    Oh Well…

    At least I’m poor enough and irrelevant enough that I can just sit back and watch the show…
    (When happiness is a couple of dozen square meter garden and a bottle of cheap but good wine and home made bread, it doesn’t take much to be satisfied and happy ;-)

    Which reminds me, I’ve got a loaf of bread rising that I need to check on… An interesting experiment with some millet flour added to regular. Tried Amaranth a couple of days back and it was quite good… Probably ought to post that recipe ;-)

    Strangely, when “making do” I tend to eat better than when a contract is sending in the money. With money, I’m eating fast food more and cooking less. When not on contract, I have home made bread, fresh vegetables (often from the garden), home made meals… Saving money by moving closer to the dirt makes for cheaper AND much better food. Life has odd contradictions some times. Happiest and healthiest when not working for hire…

  29. E.M.Smith says:

    Maurice Strong…. (It’s after noon now ;-)

  30. P.G. Sharrow says:

    Yeomen farmers are bad for big business and big government. pg

  31. E.M.Smith says:

    Up above is a comment from Peter Offenhartz that I fished out of the SPAM queue (before it was auto-dumped). It basically asks “Why are you and those who comment here not addressing the Progressive Agenda” as I read it.

    http://chiefio.wordpress.com/2012/10/12/biden-rude-mean-parrot/#comment-41285

    As it was ‘in queue’ for a long time, I’ll quote it in full here to save the scrolling up:

    @E.M.Smith
    I am curious: Are you at all surprised that your entire commentariat seems to agree with your views? And are you surprised that almost no one comments on the substance of the debate, i.e., arguments over women’s health issues, Obamacare, appropriate taxation levels, appropriate military spending, and so on: All of which were touched upon during the debate.

    I enjoy reading what you and your friends have to say. It is an education. I believe, of course, that you are all a bunch of [self-edited], but I am trying to understand how a group of people can become so collectively mis-guided. I’ll keep reading. It’s a challenge to my imagination!

    So, first off, I note that it is an attempt to shift the discussion from Biden to “Me” and to a lesser extent “You”. That’s a common Left Wing Progressive AsoLiberal Whatever-they-are-called-today behaviour. Don’t look at the thing that makes them look bad; instead, “attack the messenger” (even if indirectly as an attempted “thread hijack”). Don’t know why, don’t really care; just noted in passing. When in doubt, make it about the speaker, not the speech… OK, moving on…

    As to “why folks here agree with me”: well, 3 points.

    1) Folks tend to hang out with folks that have similar opinions. Liberal / Progressives especially so. See the “suck their own exhaust” at most such sites. Further, those who say something are emboldened when they know it is not in conflict with the host. ANYWHERE and at ANY site.

    2) I’m accepting of POV that does not agree with mine, but NOT accepting of rude and impolite behaviour. Sadly, many from the Liberal / Progressive / Left / “Whatever they can themselves today” are not prone to classical polite and calm discourse. Don’t know why, don’t really care. “Reality just is. -E.M.Smith”. I’m also pretty much not interested in wasting time ploughing ground that has been ploughed a dozen times before. So folks who want to be mean, rude, angry, “pissy” and generally make a stink, well, they don’t last long here. They become fodder for “Carping Comments” postings. After a while they go somewhere else. That is a good thing.

    2a) There is an implication that “we are all in agreement here in the echo chamber”. Nothing could be further from the truth. Being polite can be misconstrued as agreement by those not familiar with polite conversation. So, for your edification: Adolfo is sure I’m going to lose my mind and go insane / demented as I drink sodas from aluminum cans, cook in aluminum pots, and use aluminum foil regularly in cooking. I think he’s a bit daft for not seeing that there’s zero evidence for that, that Alzheimer’s plaques are metal absorbers AFTER forming, and that Zn is more an issue there than Al. I “jumped him” on Jim2 on a thread as he did not agree with me (so was outside my own guidelines for ‘be polite’). Jim2, thankfully, understood. OManuel likes to Thread Bomb on his particular belief that THEY are out to delude the world as the true origins of the universe due to fear of nuclear war. I think that’s a bit “over the top” but accept it as: a) It’s not annoying and doesn’t take any of my time. b) He’s polite about it. c) That whole thing of the local Supernova produced isotopes being EXACTLY the same age as the solar system gives zero travel time from said S.Nova to here, ergo our sun MUST be said S.Nova… so he’s right. That deserves some air time. d) I could be wrong and maybe our government isn’t all that it seems. Oh, and that goes for Adolfo and his ideas about The New World Order, too. I Don’t Think So; but it’s his hobby horse to ride, so I watch politely. Then there is Petrossa who is sure that Religion Is Evil and causes many / most wars; while I’m working on a Masters of Druidism, have a Doctor of Divinity, and I’m signing up for a Ph.D in Religion Real Soon Now. So, of course, I think religion is a positive force in humanity. There are many others, but those are the obvious ones. Disagreement is FINE. Having an alternate POV is FINE. What is not fine is hectoring, bickering, sucking up my time to no end, and “having your own set of facts”. So when it’s pretty clear that someone is “making stuff up”, they don’t last long here.

    2b) I “Keep a tidy mind”. That means if someone presents something that’s clearly BS they get called on it. They can either figure out they are wrong and / or got caught; or state a desire not to embrace what is clearly known, but will be polite about it; or move on. Lots of folks choose to move on. That’s fine with me. I’m happy to help folks to better understanding; willing to “agree to disagree” (especially if working to agreement will take longer than my available life span); and happy to say “That’s nice, but I think you need to go over to Real Climate”… or whatever. My major goal in life is to understand as absolutely much as possible, while wasting as little time as possible on crap thinking and crap ideas. It’s unavoidable to have some time waste, as so much crap is passed off as valid, but it needs to be minimized. To the extent that “pisses off” someone and they leave, more time to help those who can benefit.

    3) As to everyone agreeing with my views on the particulars of the debate: I’m not sure I’ve even stated all my views, so agreement (as opposed to just polite discourse) is hard to judge. But since most of my comment was about the BEHAVIOUR of Biden, and not the content, it isn’t all that surprising that most comments would be about that behaviour and not the content.

    OK, you are a somewhat interesting ‘participant’ in that you do not agree with my views, have some “oddities” but also like to indulge in various tactics that are discouraged here (which may be subconscious, so not something you notice.) So you have neither ‘moved on’ nor are a frequent polite participant. Indulging for the moment your diversion into “discuss the messenger” (despite that being something I typically discourage – the messenger is irrelevant; all that matters is the message…) we’ll look at the points you raise (as I find them a tiny bit interesting).

    A) Women’s Health.

    It was never an issue and isn’t an issue. The only “issue” is using government FORCE to extract money involuntarily from folks who find it an assault on religious beliefs to pay for abortions and contraception. I’ve got ZERO issue with folks doing contraception (other than that the most stupid tend not to do it while the brightest and most responsible do; long term that’s a bad idea) and I’ve got nearly ZERO issue with women electing abortions. I’ve stated several times that Men ought to have a role in the abortion decision proportional to their role in the pregnancy; and that’s about a half minute to be told the abortion was done… IMHO, the only people who ought to be involved in the decision are the woman and her doctor (and the doctor ought to be taking orders, not making choices…) I’m quite certain that several conservative readers here will not agree with that; but then again, my opinion is pretty much not important on that point. So on the issue of taking by force money to fund what some folks see as fundamental sin; I’m against that. On the issue of women being able to spend about 2 Starbucks Mochas a month to buy birth control pills; no problem. Of course, none of that is “Women’s Health” issues, as women are quite competent and able to make the choice of 2 coffees or The Pill without me, or Obama, or Biden, or anyone else.

    B) Speaking of Abortions: Obamacare… A socialist takeover of about 1/6 of the US Economy and putting Federal Bureaucrats in charge of medical decisions…. like that’s going to end well. I have ZERO desire to hand the folks who used the FBI for political advantage full access to my medical history. Anyone who smokes, does M.J., drinks, has had an STD or was at risk of one so got checked and so much more: YOUR medical records will soon be political fodder. Anyone who thinks otherwise has no clue about Chicago Style Politics nor the Nixon Hit List, nor the history of the FBI Files. There’s a simple fact: We can not provide all the medical care we can perform. It MUST be rationed. End Of Life will consume more than total lifetime productivity if not rationed. The only question is “How to ration?”. Do it by personal choice, looking at the individual estate and costs? Or a government bureaucrat saying “Doesn’t matter, you can’t have the repair”? I’ve had 2 folks in my family in the UK have very bad decisions from “Socialized Medicine”. One died. I had a bad experience with it. The answer is NOT the present US system, but something else. It is certainly not the right answer to do “more socialized costs” and less provision of solutions. So, what would I do? First off, go back to the system of County Hospitals. When I was a kid, anyone could go to the county hospital and get treatment. It wasn’t the best and fastest service, but it was pretty good. Folks with money had a private doctor. Unfair? Life is unfair. Get over it. Further, I’d start a program of building medical schools and nursing schools. The problem is supply does not meet demand. Increase supply. Just crank them suckers out like hotcakes. Yes, some doctors will be less good than at present. Not by much, and we’ll have at least 10 times more doctors before it’s an issue. The Obamacare solution isn’t a solution at all. Does nothing to increase supply, but puts the wrong folks in charge of rationing and is way too subject to “Friends Of Government” getting favors (aka corruption).

    C) Appropriate Taxation levels:

    It would seem you were not paying attention when we found that the Feds will get 18% of GDP and no more, no matter WHAT tax RATES are applied. That can not be changed, so “appropriate taxation level” is 18% or less. Everything else is stupidity and posturing. As to distribution up and down the wealth chain: Makes no difference to me. I’m in the poor end of things. The only ax I’d grind here is the “Propensity To Invest”. Take 18% from a poor person, they consume 18% less. Take it from a rich person, they invest 18% less, and that means some poor person gets a pink slip. No, not my opinion and no, not something I like; but an economic reality. I recognize reality. Dimocrats don’t (though some Democrats do; especially the old Blue Dog Southern Democrats) That I understand something does NOT mean I like it.

    So no, I’m not going to waste part of my life arguing over 35% vs 25% tax rates for “The Wealthy” as it makes zero real difference to tax revenues and mostly just shifts what share goes to tax accountants. Make it 18% FLAT rate and be done.

    D) Military Spending:

    Don’t remember which / whom it was, but several folks jumped on me for my belief about military spending. They were more for “business as usual” and I’m more inclined to “stop being police to the world”. I’d close most of our “bases” around the world, and tell the UN to “bugger off” on any “police actions”. I’d pull our funding out of Europe (though maybe keep the hospital in Germany…) and pack up and go home. A very Libertarian attitude. Build a HUGE pile of ships, tanks, cannon, planes, bombs, and such IN AMERICA. Have every person ISSUED an “Assault Rifle” (as is done in Switzerland… ever wonder why there’s not a lot of crime in Switzerland?…) and tell the rest of the world to “deal with it”. Unlikely many here agree with me on that…

    As to us, collectively, being “mis-guiided”, as we’re headed in many different directions, some of them are bound to be wrong, and others right. What we agree on, though, is that the most Dim of the Dimocrats have it “Way Wrong” (as, btw, believes my Democrat Texas Uncle, my Democrat Florida Friend, my Democrat Kid, my…)

    As to your being puzzled by so much, and having limited imagination: Not much I can do to help you there. But keep working at it and eventually you can start to catch up with the rest of us. Just be polite about it, though…

  32. For me, the American politics will only affect me on a grand scale (foreign policy, and whether the USA goes bust or not) since I’m in Europe. It’s interesting but I can’t actually do much about it – not that I can do much about the UK, France or Europe, either on a political level. Reading the comments here gives me a totally different take than is broadcast by TV or newspapers. I’m gradually getting some insight into the Democrat/Republican divide, and where they both fail or succeed.

    At times the comments make me look at and re-evaluate opinions I hadn’t realised I had. This is definitely a Good Thing. I’ve also had to realise the value of goats in human history.

  33. philjourdan says:

    @E.M. – I agree with you almost 100% – economically. But do not agree with you on the social and military matters (although I am no hawk and do not believe we should be the cops of the world). But then I can discuss both issues reasonably and without having to resort to faulty logic and/or debate tactics. So I would say your analysis is spot on.

    I chose not to debate/discuss abortion as I do not see anything fruitful coming from such discussion since my beliefs are founded in my faith, not a scientific principal.

    Should you ever (and I catch it since I do not read everyone of your posts) find one on Defense, I would be happy to discuss it as that is founded on facts, logic and economic reality.

    But what I have found is exactly what you present. Not everyone agrees, but we all are agreeable.

  34. p.g.sharrow says:

    It pays to have friends in high places:
    http://www.foxbusiness.com/government/2012/10/22/biden-ties-eyed-in-hillstone-iraq-deal/
    Joe’s little brother and their friends are in line to make 100s of millions, but of course it is all legal. pg

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