Defenestration of Prague

History has these quirks…

It all started with an innocent attempt to figure out “Why Iran? Why Syria? Why now?”

I saw the “surface reasons” (Iranian desires for a nuclear bomb to erase Israel; Syrian Bathist roots in Nazi doctrine) but that just lead to secondary reasons. The aftermath of World Wars I and II, which created imbalanced ethnic states with mixed religions. The alliance of the Axis Powers with Arabs who were peeved over French and British colonialism (and also liked the notion of “roast Jew” in the morning…) OK, I thought, maybe I can anchor “now” in “then”…

So I wandered around in W.W.II for a while, and mostly found it was the second half of W.W.I in most ways that matter.

There was a bit of a divergence as I headed off to Socialism 101 ( reading the Communist Manifesto, Mein Kampf, and finding the roots of “modern socialism” heading back toward The French Revolution and the British Utopians).

Oh Dear, I’m thinking… So I have to start with The French Revolution to sort it out properly… And after a bit of immersion in that, figured out that it was in many ways just a reflection of the Empires that had gone before, and how they did combat and eventually imploded. ( Starting before, and ending shortly after, the American Revolution; that in some ways led to the French Revolution, that lead to the empires just before W.W.I that lead to W.W.II that… )

At that point was a detour into the Ottoman Empire (and some of the Arab Muslim dominance of North Africa, a detour thorough how the Berber Language worked, and their odd old alphabet / abjad and potential link into Iberia, then on into Ireland, Scotland, and how the British Empire evolved)… but that was not getting me much closer to “Why this, why now?”… Even as it did explain much of the behaviour of Turks and Greeks…

I was beginning to despair.

Was EVERYTHING a necessary consequence of what went before? Were we really that tied ‘to the wheel’ of fate? Was the American Revolution so clearly and directly an outgrowth of European behaviours and Old King George (at the end of a long line of such Kings…)? Couldn’t I just find some nice ‘cut point’ and say “it starts here!”? That took a day or two to ponder.

So tonight I came back to it, deciding that I’d ‘run causality backwards’ just a bit more. Surely the path from Communist / Socialist arising from capitalism that arose in Democratic Republics that came from Kings and Empires that came from earlier Kings and Empires that… had to start SOMEWHERE! And well before two guys, a nice cave, and a fight with sticks and rocks over who got to have it…

Well, I think I found my “break point”.


To an American, we don’t really notice religion much. I’ve worked with hundreds of folks where I could not begin to tell you if they were Catholics, Protestants (and don’t even hope to figure out what FLAVOR of Protestant… Methodists vs Lutherans vs Presbyterians vs Baptists – that come in at least 3 seasonings I know of, having attended 2 of them) and thats before you even start to get into the “other bits”. Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists, Christian Scientists. Then there are the Buddhists and Hindus too. Oh, and a passel Jews and Muslims (both somewhere around 6% of the US Population, last I paid any attention to it.)

As a kid, I personally spent most of my time in Baptist Church. Primarily as my Mom did not have a drivers license until I was about 12 so we walked to whatever was closest, and they were it. For a while we lived closer to a Methodist Church, so I went there for a year or two. At about 12, two things collided. Mom could drive and my sister started dating the son of the Episcopalian Minister (and they had just built an Episcopal Church the year before). So for a couple of years we went there… Mixed in along the way were sporadic visits to the Catholic Church (Dad was a Catholic) and to the Mormon Church (as they were about 70% of the town, and by then I lived 1/2 block from the Biggest Church In Town…) Also, as they have to attempt to recruit folks, and there were not a lot of folks to recruit in a mostly Mormon Town, well, it was only polite to let your friends tally a “Brought A Visitor” on their score card…

There are others. I’ve been to a Presbyterian Church a couple of times, a Lutheran a few times, and recently visited a Jehovah’s Witness church (nice folks, even if a bit persistent and literal…) My favorite has been the times I’ve gone to a Buddhist service. Shinto, especially, has something special for me. I’m sure there are more, but frankly, I kind of stopped ‘keeping score’. It is fun to sometimes go to an “alien” church. ( In town, now that I’m in a big city, is a Coptic Church that does the liturgy in Coptic; but I couldn’t talk the spouse into that one. She’s taken me to a couple of different churches that both have “Unity” or “Unified” it the name, so I now can’t keep them straight ;-) I also found a Greek Orthodox and thought listening to the whole thing in Greek would be fun, but she declined that one too…)

The point? Well, that point is that we don’t do much fighting or arguing over religion. If you want one, go ahead. If you want me to visit, well, OK, I can do that. Or maybe I’ll go fishing… Or we can all go to a friends wedding at the Synagogue (an interesting ceremony if ever I’ve seen one…) and not get worked up about it. Heck, in about the same year we had a Pagan wedding in a Redwood Grove too. Well, actually it was sort of a Pagan / Christian mix, as they were a mixed couple… Religion is sort of like hair color. Most of us grew up with whatever we had, some folks change theirs, and most folks pay about as much attention to it. Nobody argues over it. (Well, sometimes you can get an argument about the existence of God, and you can get good arguments about creation vs evolution; but try, just TRY to get an argument about Christology – the nature of Christ, the trinity and all that, or about iconoclasts vs Catholics or “ought the Apocrypha be included in the Bible?” and you find yourself talking to an empty room pretty quick.) Almost nobody knows, or cares, about the Catholic vs Protestant wars of generations ago.

Day to day, I’m as blind to it as most Americans. Religion is just wallpaper, and we just don’t notice the wallpaper much.

(Frankly, I think that’s part of why the Muslims get P.O.’s at us. We just don’t care. They want a good religious war with someone and we just say “What? No. Look, be polite and stop shouting about war or we’re gonna whack you.” which is just what someone desperately in need of an adversary wants to hear. A guy at work starts talking about being a Muslim and I’m going to ask if he knows where a good Moroccan Restaurant is in town. He gets rankled ’cause he wanted me to honor his religion, or be a foil for a spitting match, or whatever; and I’m asking about Halal Lamb… Being ignored is worse than being denigrated… We expect them to compete in the marketplace of ideas, live and let live, and they want to compete in very different ways. Oh Well. Welcome to America…)

But it turns out that I think I DID find my “Hinge Point of History”, and it is Religion. The Religion of the 16th century (that is in the 1500’s – a point that constantly bothers me… The 1500’s ought to be called the 15’s Century… but I digress… oh, heck, I’m going to whack it some more… WHY do they have the 15th Century end with 1500? That’s just nuts. YES, I know the math. Everyone forever has to be encumbered with this crap because some guy way back when forgot about Year Zero? Sheesh, fix it already…) Meanwhile, back in the Europe, on each side of the 16th Century (that makes it in the 1400s and 1600s, sigh…) it was not wise to have political meetings in tall buildings in Prague…

In 1618 they had The Second Defenestration Of Prague. Yes, not only did they toss someone out the window, they’ve done it so much they started numbering them (and then lost count!). So, if you have any meetings with Czechs in Prague, make sure you rent a ground floor conference room. They seem to like tossing folks out windows when they get cranky or don’t reach an agreement.

On 23 May 1618, four Catholic Lord Regents, namely Count Jarolslaw Martinitz, Count Vilem Slavata of Chlum, Adam II von Sternberg (who was the supreme burgrave), and Matthew Leopold Popel Lobcowitz (who was the grand prior) arrived at the Bohemian Chancellory at 8:30am. After preparing the meeting hall, an assembly of the three main Protestant estates gathered at 9:00am, led by Count Thurn, who had been deprived of his post as Castellan of Karlstadt by the Emperor. The Protestant Lords’ agenda was to clarify whether or not the four regents present were responsible for persuading King Matthias to write a letter which ultimately removed the religious freedoms that had been granted with the Letter of Majesty. According to Martiniz himself:

Lord Paul Rziczan read aloud… a letter with the following approximate content: His Imperial Majesty had sent to their graces the lord regents a sharp letter that was, by our request, issued to us as a copy after the original had been read aloud, and in which His Majesty declared all of our lives and honor already forfeit, thereby greatly frightening all three Protestant estates. As they also absolutely intended to proceed with the execution against us, we came to a unanimous agreement among ourselves that, regardless of any loss of life and limb, honor and property, we would stand firm, with all for one and one for all… nor would we be subservient, but rather we would loyally help and protect each other to the utmost, against all difficulties. Because, however, it is clear that such a letter came about through the advice of some of our religious enemies, we wish to know, and hereby ask the lord regents present, if all or some of them knew of the letter, recommended it, and approved of it.

Before the regents gave any answer, they requested that the Protestants give them the opportunity to confer with their superior, Adam von Waldstein, who was not present. If they were given the opportunity, the Protestants would get an official answer to their grievance by the next Friday (seeing as this was all taking place on the eve of Ascension Day and they all must observe the holy day). The Protestants would not accept this run around and demanded an immediate answer. The first two, Adam von Sternberg and Matthew Leopold Popel Lobcowitz, were decided innocent by the Protestant Estate holders and too pious to have any responsibility in the letter’s creation. They in turn were removed from the room, however before leaving, the supreme burgrave (Adam II von Sternberg) made it clear that they “did not advise anything that was contrary to the Letter of Majesty”. This left only Count Vilem Slavata, Count Jaroslaw Martinitz (who had replaced Thurn as Castellan), known Catholic hard-liners, and the secretary to the Regents. They eventually claimed responsibility for the letter and, assuming they were only going to be arrested, welcomed any punishment the Protestants had planned.

The Lord Count von Thurn turned to both Martiniz and Slavata and said “you are enemies of us and of our religion, have desired to deprive us of our Letter of Majesty, have horribly plagued your Protestant subjects… and have tried to force them to adopt your religion against their wills or have had them expelled for this reason”. Then to the crowd of Protestants, he continued “were we to keep these men alive, then we would lose the Letter of Majesty and our religion… for there can be no justice to be gained from or by them”. Soon after, the Regents were thrown out the third floor window along with the Regents’ secretary, Philipus Fabricius. Some texts say they fell 70 feet (21 metres) and landed on a large pile of manure in a dry moat and survived.
Philip Fabricius was later ennobled by the emperor and granted the title Baron von Hohenfall (literally “Baron of Highfall”).

Now, the first thing that comes to mind is “who throws someone out a window and doesn’t notice the pile of horse poop?” and the second thing is “And then lets them live to go get friends?”…

But the point:

Folks, then, were really hung up on exactly what particular flavor of religion you were. The Arab Muslims had just been lopping of chunks of Europe (both ends…) for Islam. The Catholics were trying for European Domination. The Eastern Orthodox HAD been wanting domination, but were swallowed up buy the Ottoman Turks empire (other than some that ran off to Russia – setting the stage for THEIR feeling of being the New Roman Empire…) and the Protestants had been fighting Papal domination and corruption for a while already. (Yes, many of the Popes were made Pope by questionable means, some via purchase, and at times there were even multiple Popes… It’s a bit chaotic, that bit of history… )

IMHO, it is THAT which is the Hinge Point.

We had a long history of The King du Jour, and a long history of miscellaneous Empires (Maya, Chinese, Persian, Roman, Greek, Egyptian, etc. etc.) but things had never really changed much. Mostly just the same old same old. One guy robs another guy, one Lord dominates some other Lords and gets called King. Some King kills off other Kings and calls himself Emperor. Those things have echoes into today, but did not determine today. We could just as easily had a Byzantine Empire Redux… but for religion.

So the Turks remember their Ottoman Empire days, the direct result of the Arab Conquests. That influence runs from 700 or so AD up to about W.W.I, so is a direct root of today. But it is a consequence of the Muslim Religion and how it spread in that era. The Russians have memories of their USSR Empire, and the Russian Empire from before it; but the root is in the Eastern Orthodox religion, how it came to be the dominant form in the East, and from which they got their Alphabet. And Central Europe has dreams of the Holy Roman Empire (and France tacks on the Napoleonic Empire…) while Britain had the Anglican Church split with the Pope over the many divorces of Henry…

In essence, there was a long period of Religious War, running from about 300 AD with the conversion of Constantine to Christianity in the Byzantine Empire, through the attacks of the Turks and the Moors into Europe, through the Crusades and even with the Protestant vs Catholic wars in Europe. Those were the events that lead to the Ottoman Turk Empire, the Holy Roman Empire, the Russian Empire, the British Empire; and eventually to the American Revolution, the French Revolution, and on through several other steps until we reach the W.W.I and II events, then end up in the Cold War and the mess we have today.

And that shift, from Religious Wars to wars over property, land, which Royal Family can lay claim to what, the Hapsburgs and the Mccoys, if you will, that whole silly European Privilege system; that is what leads to our present state. It is the legacy of those turf fights that shapes today.

What does this have to do with Defenestration in Prague?

Roman Catholic Imperial officials claimed that the three men survived due to the mercy of angels assisting the righteousness of the Catholic cause. Protestant pamphleteers asserted that their survival had more to do with the horse manure in which they landed than the benevolent acts of the angels.

Soon after he was officially crowned upon Matthias’ death in 1619, Ferdinand II was deposed by the Bohemian rebels. They replaced him with Frederick V, Elector Palatine, a Calvinist, who reigned for only 15 months. Ferdinand annulled this election on January 29, 1620. Ferdinand followed this on November 8, 1620 by outlawing Protestantism, executing the Bohemian rebel leaders and confiscating their estates. The Defenestration of Prague was unsuccessful in its immediate motives, but served to precipitate the Bohemian Revolt and the Thirty Years’ War.

It was the proximal cause of the Thirty Years’ War.’_War

The Thirty Years’ War (1618–1648) was fought primarily in what is now Germany, and at various points involved most countries in Europe. It was one of the most destructive conflicts in European history.

The origins of the conflict and goals of the participants were complex, and no single cause can accurately be described as the main reason for the fighting. Initially, the war was fought largely as a religious conflict between Protestants and Catholics in the Holy Roman Empire, although disputes over the internal politics and balance of power within the Empire played a significant part. Gradually, the war developed into a more general conflict involving most of the European powers. In this general phase, the war became more a continuation of the Bourbon–Habsburg rivalry for European political pre-eminence, and in turn led to further warfare between France and the Habsburg powers, and less specifically about religion.

A major impact of the Thirty Years’ War was the extensive destruction of entire regions, denuded by the foraging armies (bellum se ipsum alet). Episodes of famine and disease significantly decreased the populace of the German states, Bohemia, the Low Countries and Italy, while bankrupting most of the combatant powers.

It was that near endless bickering, astounding destruction, and the need to replenish the wealth squandered in that war which lead to several things. A load of folks, fed up with it, headed off to the New World. (So, eventually, we get the American Revolution, then the French Revolution, then all the sequale of THAT, including eventually the various socialisms (communism, democratic socialism, naziism, fascism, market socialism, etc.) AND we get a treaty at the end. It also lays out the winners and losers and lays the table for a few generations of Family Feud between various “Royal Families” of Europe (who seem best suited to greed and getting a lot of innocent folks killed trying to satisfy their power lust and greed; but I’m a Colonial, so what else would I say ;-)

Reading the link on the 30 Years’ War is well worth the time. It is just full of detail I can’t cover here. All the various Royals busy killing each other (and many innocents) in the petty rivalries. Even the Ottomans get involved:

In the east, the Protestant Hungarian Prince of Transylvania, Bethlen Gabor, led a spirited campaign into Hungary with the support of the Ottoman Sultan, Osman II. Fearful of the Catholic policies of Ferdinand II, Bethlen Gabor requested a protectorate by Osman, so “the Ottoman Empire became the one and only ally of great-power status which the rebellious Bohemian states could muster after they had shaken off Habsburg rule and had elected Frederick V as a Protestant king”. Ambassadors were exchanged, with Heinrich Bitter visiting Constantinople in January 1620, and Mehmed Aga visiting Prague in July 1620. The Ottomans offered a force of 60,000 cavalry to Frederick and plans were made for an invasion of Poland with 400,000 troops in exchange for the payment of an annual tribute to the Sultan. These negotiations triggered the Polish–Ottoman War of 1620–21. The Ottomans defeated the Poles, who were supporting the Habsburgs in the Thirty Years’ War, at the Battle of Cecora in September–October 1620, but were not able to further intervene efficiently before the Bohemian defeat at the Battle of the White Mountain in November 1620.

The emperor, who had been preoccupied with the Uskok War, hurried to reform an army to stop the Bohemians and their allies from overwhelming his country. Count Bucquoy, the commander of the Imperial army, defeated the forces of the Protestant Union led by Count Mansfeld at the Battle of Sablat, on 10 June 1619. This cut off Count Thurn’s communications with Prague, and he was forced to abandon his siege of Vienna. The Battle of Sablat also cost the Protestants an important ally — Savoy, long an opponent of Habsburg expansion. Savoy had already sent considerable sums of money to the Protestants and even troops to garrison fortresses in the Rhineland. The capture of Mansfeld’s field chancery revealed the Savoyards’ involvement, and they were forced to bow out of the war.

So this was the point were the Ottoman Empire first aligned with the Protestants against the Catholics. Laying the groundwork for their later being allied with the Germans and the “Central Powers” in W.W.I, that has the Arab States reprise that role in W.W.II again as German Axis power members, that leads to the present Nazi Emulation by the Ba’ath Party in Syria, and the Turks being grumpy about folks, like the USA, talking about entering Syria or Iran.

We also get the Royal Family groundwork laid that later, under the Austo-Hungarian Empire, has the match lit for W.W.I with the killing of the Archduke. It is the peace and aftermath of the Thirty Years’ War that leads to the structural issues that lead to W.W.I, which really only pauses to resume in W.W.II, and smoothly transitions into the Cold War, that leads to where we are today.

By the war’s end, four major imperial powers—the German, Russian, Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman empires—had been militarily and politically defeated and ceased to exist.
The successor states of the former two lost a great amount of territory, while the latter two were dismantled entirely. The map of central Europe was redrawn into several smaller states. The League of Nations was formed in the hope of preventing another such conflict. The European nationalism spawned by the war and the breakup of empires, the repercussions of Germany’s defeat and problems with the Treaty of Versailles are generally agreed to be factors contributing to World War II.

Which lead to a new USSR / Russian Empire, our present “Arab Spring” and the pan-Arab Socialist movements, and, in some ways the end of the Cold War has led to a new Holy Roman Empire / Napoleonic Empire / Greater German Empire in the EU.

Which is WHY the present state seems so familiar. Seems to have that “it’s gonna blow” feeling. Because it looks a whole lot like what it has been the last few times Its blown up. The only major difference I see this time is that the USA is playing some of what had been the British Empire role in prior runs.

Peace of Westphalia

The Thirty Years’ War ended in a peace agreement that basically gave us the modern European layout.

Over a four year period, the parties (Holy Roman Emperor, France and Sweden) were actively negotiating at Osnabrück and Münster in Westphalia. The end of the war was not brought about by one treaty but instead by a group of treaties such as the Treaty of Hamburg. On 15 May 1648, the Peace of Münster was signed ending the Eighty Years’ War. Over five months later, on 24 October, the Treaties of Münster and Osnabrück were signed.

The Peace of Westphalia was a series of peace treaties signed between May and October 1648 in Osnabrück and Münster. These treaties ended the Thirty Years’ War (1618–1648) in the Holy Roman Empire, and the Eighty Years’ War (1568–1648) between Spain and the Dutch Republic, with Spain formally recognizing the independence of the Dutch Republic.

The Peace of Westphalia treaties involved the Holy Roman Emperor, Ferdinand III, of the House of Habsburg, the Kingdoms of Spain, France, Sweden, the Dutch Republic, the Princes of the Holy Roman Empire, and sovereigns of the free imperial cities […]
The treaties resulted from the big diplomatic congress, thereby initiating a new system of political order in central Europe, later called Westphalian sovereignty, based upon the concept of a sovereign state governed by a sovereign. In the event, the treaties’ regulations became integral to the constitutional law of the Holy Roman Empire.

The treaties did not restore the peace throughout Europe, however. France and Spain remained at war for the next eleven years, making peace only in the Treaty of the Pyrenees of 1659.
The power taken by Ferdinand III in contravention of the Holy Roman Empire’s constitution was stripped and returned to the rulers of the Imperial States. This rectification allowed the rulers of the Imperial States to independently decide their religious worship. Protestants and Catholics were redefined as equal before the law, and Calvinism was given legal recognition.

So in one swoop, we got the nations of Europe, a start down that path of ending religious wars, and the formation of the Royal Family Sovereigns (and what all THAT leads to later).

The Holy See was very displeased at the settlement, with Pope Innocent X in Zelo Domus Dei reportedly calling it “null, void, invalid, iniquitous, unjust, damnable, reprobate, inane, empty of meaning and effect for all time”.

Which leaves me wondering what the Pope REALLY thought ;-) Nothing like being told you can’t lay claim to ALL Christianity to put a crimp in that Ultimate and Infallible Power Trip…

Religious toleration

The 1648 Treaty of Osnabrück, part of the Peace of Westphalia, specified three types of worship, “domestic devotion”, public religious services “exercitium religionis publicum”, and ‘”exercitium religionis privatum,” and tolerated communal worship by minority faiths in clandestine churches or as private, family or individual devotions.

Now this focus on stepping away from Religious Wars was all well and good. Though I have to note that we largely just shifted into wars over Colonial Empires and over Economic Forms instead. But it does leave me with another minor “Oh Dear”…

The present move to intolerance of the practice of Christianity in any public setting is “not good” as it risks reopening this kind of Religious War. We really ought to learn from the Peace of Westphalia that religious toleration is important, included toleration In Public. Starting down the path of suppression of religion has generally lead to ‘very bad things’.

We also need to look at the present problem with “Radical Islam” vs “Jews” vs “The Christian West” and realize that it, too, has long and deep roots. We are fairly close to recreating the circumstances that existed before the Peace of Westphalia and before the breakup of the Holy Roman Empire. Do we REALY want a new Ottoman Empire (Arab Spring) vs a new Holy Roman Empire (EU) vs a new Russian Empire (Russia and allies)? Will it really be any better for having the USA playing “UK Analog”?

1648 Europe

1648 Europe

All those little states in “Germany” were parts of the Holy Roman Empire.

One other difference. While we still have vestiges of the historic Royal Families (and I’m sure they are just as greedy and ambitious as ever) we have added two new layers of greed and avarice. The Mega-Capitalists and the Apparatchik. I am quite certain that th power lust of a Putin or a Maurice Strong is no less strong, nor any less hazardous to the world than when those same urges came from folks with Nobility in their title.

Somehow, despite all the changes, we’ve ended up letting those folks who lust most for power and domination set the agendas of government. We are forming up into religious blocks again (though with the Atheistic religion added to the mix). And we have many of the same territorial imperatives at work again.

We desperately need to change that, and find a way to prevent doing over what has already been done a hundred times.

In Conclusion

It looks to me like we have the Muslim Brotherhood working hard to rebuild the Ottoman Empire. Turkey is making sympathetic sounds toward the east, and away from the west, as well. We have Putin and Russia working to replay The Cold War, and we have a British Royal Prince on record as saying they expect to win The Great Game this time. W.W.I was started by a Royal getting assassinated, triggering a rats nest of interlocking mutual support treaties, much like we have a load of them today. The Thirty Years’ War (among many others) was in large part over religion. In all three ( 30 Years’, W.W.I and W.W.II) the Ottoman Empire was participant and part of the problem.

I don’t see how adding global oil dependency on the Middle East, US Dreams of Hegemony, and a Nuclear China, India, Pakistan, Israel, and shortly Iran; adds stability to this mix.

It looks to me like we are one Serbian Rebel or one Defenestration away from a dramatic change in Life As We Know It; and all our “Leaders” seem quite happy with this state of affairs.

But, on the bright side, I think I’ve figured out where our present circumstances had their foundations laid. Some Czech Defenestrations and the Ottoman Empire vs the European Empires & Royals… That, and I’m really coming to appreciate how the Framers of the US Constitution crafted that thing. And why ‘freedom of religion’ ranked so high, along with no titles of nobility and only Congress declaring war. Now if only we were to do what it says…

But somehow I think we’re going to have Madam Hillary toss someone out a window instead…

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About E.M.Smith

A technical managerial sort interested in things from Stonehenge to computer science. My present "hot buttons' are the mythology of Climate Change and ancient metrology; but things change...
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48 Responses to Defenestration of Prague

  1. R. de Haan says:

    “It looks to me like we are one Serbian Rebel or one Defenestration away from a dramatic change in Life As We Know It; and all our “Leaders” seem quite happy with this state of affairs”.

    In order to eliminate the risk of war between nations, a nuclear armageddon, over population and the environmental destruction of the planet our political elite’s have conspired against their own populations and took on agenda that has brought us “The First Global Revolution”
    The concept for the First Global Revolution was created by the Club of Rome

    Also See
    UN Agenda 21:
    And the Green Agenda:

    Just make a cross link of power brokers from the Club of Rome, the UN, the Bilderberg Group, the EU and our National politicians and you know where we’re heading.

    You will also know why the election of the next President of the US will be crucial to the progress of the Globalist objectives.

    Ron Paul is the only viable candidate to stop the process.

    However, I don’t think we can stop the planned destruction of the global financial system.

    Hard times ahead.

  2. Sir,

    Your remarkable skills at pattern recognition constantly have me at awe. A large round of applause seems appropriate for that entire exposition. However, there is one thing I feel inclined to add. We need no archduke – all we need is the collapse of the european financial system, and the reprecussions thereof that will pit nations against nations and likely start a vicious circle of economic nationalism, economic decline and political aggression. The triggering of derivative instruments like credit default swaps are guaranteed to drag the US right into the middle of it, altough I suspect they already are.


  3. Scarlet Pumpernickel says:

    Capitalism doesn’t actually exist anymore. It existed before WW1, but ended when WW1 started. As this is when the government got involved. And once they became involved, pretty much it is impossible to remove.

  4. adolfogiurfa says:

    @E.M.: You have totally forgotten the role played by the “Free-masons”, in organizations made up by the banking elites of that time, having in mind a whole faked “philosophy” in order to replace the power of the Catholic Church and all the kingdoms. In them they managed to gather second ranked or third and fourth ranked individuals, cheating them they were going to replace the old order by a new order based on “Liberté, Egalité & Fraternité”, but really controlled by their new masters, where those “initiates” served without any objections, as their masters provided them with a limited amount of Money and Power they never had or that they never have ever had or achieved by their own means and faculties.
    Nobility exists,and it is the inherited virtue through which men cannot betray their principles. Such a virtue does exist and it is usually found among hard working people who almost instinctively perceive natural laws and who know they must follow them. Sometimes such virtue is called “common sense”.
    In order to establish those initiatic societies, lenders/speculators elites preferred those of innoble tendencies, easy to bribe and much easier to manipulate.
    As you may realize this process still works though it is not good for man or for nature itself, and nature itself will take care of it.

  5. Jason Calley says:

    @ E.M. You seem to have placed your finger on a very interesting part of history! There have been more than a few comments in the past about how the increasing decentralization of information (due to the availability of relatively inexpensive books) brought about major realignments of local and national power structures in the centuries just after Gutenberg. Certainly the rise of Protestant churches was one effect. The breakup of the monolithic Catholic church was a foregone conclusion once people began to read widely, and do their own interpretation of the Bible (and other religious writings.) Certainly the rise of popular support for representative government (although with the retention of nationalism in place of direct allegiance to a personal monarch) was another effect of decentralized information.

    I would speculate that the primary reason why Islam has been so very resistant to dilution of influence among its adherents is that the heavy emphasis on “read the Koran in its ORIGINAL version, no translations!” has served as a sort of binder to hold the religion together. Yes, we have various sects of Islam, but it looks to me like Islam has an over-all unity and a cultural importance that most Christian sects do not have.

    So, where are we going from here? If the first big information revolution led to the de-emphasis of “one-great-religion” in the west, where will the current digital revolution lead? R. de Haan is absolutely correct that the powers that be are attempting to foist a world governance on us, but I suspect it will be unsuccessful. My hope is that the effect of all this information will be a growing awareness that the hyper-developed nationalism of the last century will be seen as unproductive and as anachronistic. Just as the people of the 16th and 17th Centuries grew out of the belief that there was one great Mother Church, I think that the next generation will grow out of the belief in “one-great-government,” whether it be at the United Nations, in Washington or in Moscow — or Tehran — or Jerusalem.

    Oddly enough, the followers of Islam may have an easier time with giving up faith in nationalism than the Christians or Jews. The annual haj has already shown many Muslims that nation is less important than religion. Can they make the leap to seeing individual belief as being more important than collectivist religion?

  6. adolfogiurfa says:

    @Jason Calley (14:30:35) : A single world government…a single pocket! , that´s the “new order” elite´s dream!. No way, it won´t happen that way: You are forgetting “third worlders”, in special the chinese propensity to cutting off conspirers´heads.

  7. Adrian Camp says:

    They didn’t stop chucking folk out of windows in 1618!

  8. adolfogiurfa says:

    @E.M.: It seems you are right; it´s about Religion, and not that “wallpaper”…as most Americans. Religion is just wallpaper, and we just don’t notice the wallpaper much.
    Look at this:MONDAY, FEBRUARY 20, 2012
    To Our Orthodox Greek Brothers, You Are Never Alone

  9. Power Grab says:

    I read something not long that called those uprisings “bankers’ wars”. The premise was that the international bankers were destabilizing the area so they could get a “piece of the action” in that part of the world. Since observant Muslims don’t charge usury, if their banks were eliminated, then that would pave the way for the non-Muslim banks to take root. I think some would say that the phenomenon of bankers’ wars goes way back in history….

    Another idea I had was – what was the effect of the warming of the climate as we climbed out of the Lilttle Ice Age? Did that correspond with an easing of hostilities?

    As always – your articles are very worth reading!

  10. George says:

    “It looks to me like we have the Muslim Brotherhood working hard to rebuild the Ottoman Empire. ”

    I came to that same conclusion around 2002 or so. A major part of the problem is that the old empire was divided up with no concept of the cultures involved. The Kurds and Assyrians were ignored (see Wikipedia article on Iraq), for example, in Iraq and the Shiite population was basically split between Iraq and (then) Persia. It was almost as if the borders of the region were drawn up for the purpose of strife.

  11. Jason Calley says:

    @ George “It was almost as if the borders of the region were drawn up for the purpose of strife.”

    I think they were. That seems to be a simpler explanation than to think that the great powers were so very consistently unable to find more workable borders.

    In my more cynical moments, I wonder whether the current (for the last few decades at least) policies of the US are not knowingly designed to create a sort of Balkanized USA as well.

  12. Scarlet Pumpernickel says:

  13. Scarlet Pumpernickel says:

  14. Scarlet Pumpernickel says:

    Ok, I’ve been thinking about Syria. Since Iran it’s obvious what the war is about.

    Syria used to be part of the Ottoman empire, so was Iran, so was Saudi, the area was all pretty sliced up by the Europeans especially the UK. For eg some of the boundaries of Saudi were sliced up by some UK general while he was half drunk and he just drew a line on the map.

    But Syria, I can’t really see what the goal really is, as there is not really that much to take from the country?

    Maybe a gas pipeline runs through it?

    It looks like the CIA is bombing this one, not sure really why, seriously 12 times now? It’s similar to when the oil pipeline were bombed over and over during the peak oil hoax in Nigeria.

    My feeling is that war is all about this? since maybe there is more gas then we know in this area, and they want to get this pipeline to go through EU/USA new gas delivery by pass Russia friend, Turkey. Since they can get the gas from Egypt to Europe, hook it into the new pipelines that are coming through Turkey, so that it can supply gas. Maybe another pipeline is coming via Northern Iraq since it could either be gas or oil?

    Did some googling, and it looks like Syria is very important to the future capture of Iran, as this pipeline will help bybass Russia’s gas to europe

    Also there is this important one as well


    Iraq has more oil then Saudi. Why you have to keep it down, as oil was running out remember

    Don’t forget OMG IRAN IS ABOUT TO MAKE A NUCLEAR BOMB IN 3 YEARS (lets recycle the same story over and over for the last 30 years)

    And by the way, any country that has been in civil war in Africa probably has a massive amount of oil eg this. And remember Uganda, has more oil then Saudi :P

  15. adolfogiurfa says:

    @Scarlet Pumpernickel: The Club of Rome!

  16. E.M.Smith says:

    I don’t have a link to hand, but the UK was known to have desired to so arrange new countries such that they were a “house divided against itself”.. IIRC, that was a design goal during the Ottoman Empire breakup at the end of W.W.I and was why the Kurds are spread over 3 countries and the Sunni / Shiia are mixed in various countries.

    I have no doubt that the desire to flood the country with Mexicans and folks from India on H1B visas are only partly for lower costs of production…. ( The Democrats expect to collect their votes…)


    I didn’t “forget” the Masonic Order. (Why does everyone always think it is a “forgetting” when something is edited out?…)

    They were important in the American Revolution, and perhaps in The French Revolution as well; but not central to the point of the Religious Wars as leading to the peace of Westfalia that leads to the world of today. So I chose not to spend several days writing the complete history of the Masons and all the Conspiracy Theories connected to them AND the history of the Knights Templar – as interesting as all that might be…

    Besides, I think they were deprecated in the 1800’s when some scandals happened in the USA. ( I think the Scull and Bones is what’s left… now being folded into the other groups mentioned above. B.B. and C.O.R…)

    More important, IMHO, is the realization that The Power Families of Europe did not go away and forget their history just because of the rise of the Nation State, nor W.W.I & II, nor the ebb and flow of Communism in the Cold War.

    They have continued to be schooled in their history and have the same DNA that lead to dreams of power and avarice before… So, IMHO, what we are most likely to find is pretty simple. A desire by the remnants of the Old Houses to undo the Peace of Westfalia and the Nation State, to return to a time of Empires, and with them in charge. To carve up the world anew, but wrapped up in the trappings of “Democracy” and “Globalization”.

    It would be very interesting to look at the family trees and pedigrees of the Aparatchicks running the EU, and hanging out at those “Secret Organizations”…

    Is there any hope of preserving the notion of a Nation State of Free People, with rule arising from the bottom and “delegated upward”? Frankly, I’m suspecting it isn’t (but not ready to give up yet…)

    Time will tell. IF the EU breaks up, there is hope. (As it damages their attempt to swindle the people of Europe out of their self determination and nation states). IF the USA backs off of “globalism” and decides not to play ball anymore, there is hope (as, if we are ‘outside the pen’, they do not have global control.) And there is always the “wild cards” of the Muslim World, Russia, China, and India. (South America seems already a ‘done deal’ with the integration into one continent scale pen with socialist trappings…)

    There’s also a chance that Canada and Australia can serve as “good examples”. Canada is already acting in its own interest and telling the world to “stuff it” on some of The Agenda. Australia is having enough grief lining up from the various taxes that I figure they will “flip” pretty soon… Just don’t know if they are ‘enough’ to act as a seed for change back to liberty.

    At any rate, a lot of it looks to me like an attempt to recover by stealth that which was lost in the various World Wars and due to the Magna Carta, Peace of Westfalia, and the revolutions in the USA and France.

    Heck, I’d already figured out that the Carbon Trading Scheme Tax was just pining for the “Good Old Days” of a Royal Coal Tax Post:

    It all makes sense if you just think of it from the point of view of a wealthy “royal” being schooled in the history of “The Good Old Days”, suffering from a lot of ambition and ego, while faced with a ‘bottoms up authority” world of Democratic Republics. So you lay out a plan of how to roll back the bits you didn’t like, and have learned to “hide” the process as much as possible.

    Or I could just be projecting a fantasy ‘that fits’ but is wrong… (But there comes a point where ‘quantity has a quality all its own’…)

    So at this point the “trick” is to “judge them by what they do”. If actions move as predicted by the model, it gains credence.

    And “dig here” into evidenciary bits, like finding if the EU Parliament and / or UN “commissions” are packed with Old House Retreads…

  17. R. de Haan says:

    Hans Palmstierna (12:41:08) :
    “all we need is the collapse of the european financial system, and the reprecussions thereof that will pit nations against nations and likely start a vicious circle of economic nationalism, economic decline and political aggression. The triggering of derivative instruments like credit default swaps are guaranteed to drag the US right into the middle of it, altough I suspect they already are”.

    Goldman Sachs Takes Over Eurozone

    Please translate link with Google Translate Dutch – English

    If the Eurizone collapses the UN will come into power due to the agreements set by Agenda 21 and the IMF requirements. This is the mai reason wy the IMF is involved in all bail out deals. US is in the same boat.

    adolfogiurfa (17:04:43) :
    @E.M.: It seems you are right; it´s about Religion, and not that “wallpaper”…as most Americans. Religion is just wallpaper, and we just don’t notice the wallpaper much.

    Although religion played a huge role in passed conflicts the Globalists see religion and divide by religious and tribal lines as one of the threats for further conflict.

    This is why they have taken on the challenge to provide the world with a new global religion (see details at

    Interesting in this case is the rle of former USSR President Gorbatchov.

    The UN of course the spider in all the webs spun.

    The biggest threat to any of the plans is the unlimited and global exchange of idea’s and comments via the internet.

    UN biggest threat to Internet Freedoms

    The CAGW doctrine is rolled out without delay with countries even spending development funding allocated to fight poverty to finance climate projects.

    The Globalist concept is a total concept which includes all facets of life from economics to resources from religion to education with all controls in the hands of the unelected few.

    The economic destruction of the West is part of the agenda.

    Here lies the big risk.

    Not only is it extremely difficult to role back freedoms on those who lived in freedom for at least two or even three generations.

    But there is also the risk of vulnerability of the West creating a power vacuum
    to those nations who do not support the Globalist Agenda but have their own

    If any religious agenda would be valid today we would not have engaged in the armed support of the Arab League and we would have come to the rescue of Christian minorities that are under mortal threat in countries like
    Iraq, Egypt, Turkey etc. etc.

  18. George says:

    Well, I think people have to put the phrase “new world order” in its proper context. At the time, the Berlin Wall had just fallen, the people of the Soviet Union and many Eastern European countries had just rebelled and there was a feeling of the end of the Cold War that had driven international politics for some 45 years. That was the “new world order” that was being spoken about at that time.

    As I drove to work every day in Southern California, I watched building after building literally bulldozed down to bare earth. These were buildings once sporting signs of Northrup, Lockheed, General Dynamics, McDonnell Douglass, and some others. In Northern California it would be a little harder to find where places like FMC were building Bradley fighting vehicles.

    The “For Sale” signs were sprouting all over the neighborhood as the defense industry in Orange County began to shut down. Then one day McDonnell Douglass announced they would never build another plane in Southern California once the currently scheduled C-17 production was complete. That was “black Friday” in my neighborhood. McD announced layoffs in the thousands and many of the surrounding support companies that made their living a subcontractors did the same. These were people with 15-20 years of service with the company with engineering degrees and kids in college. By that time nearly every home in my neighborhood was either for sale or had been sold within the past year or so.

    It was a “new world order” for a lot of people.

  19. Beth Cooper says:

    Grand sweep of history appreciated, Chief.The long battle of totalitarian and democratic politics.
    Meanwhile, here in Australia, the hip pocket nerve is beginning to hurt, and the electorate’s no longer listening to the leftist press and its religious BS..

  20. Scarlet Pumpernickel says:

    Europe will collapse soon. This Greek deal is basically just bailing out the bankers. The new government that will come in next month will just reverse the Austerity again.

    Anyway, even with the current Austerity Greece is still losing money. With 11million people its amazing they probably need 1 Trillion. Greece’s Debt/GDP is too high and they have Spain and Italy. So it’s finished it’s like subprime, we know it will happen and but it just has not happened, but it’s just the bankers trying to get as much as possible before it does go under..

    And essentially europe is in big trouble now, because Iran is not shipping oil to them, like Greece for eg relies almost totally on the Oil from Iran. They have Libya now for the bounty, but it’ll take some time to bring that online to replace the missing oil from Iran. US is stirring up the oil price even higher with it’s drone wars.

    The other crazy thing is the DOW. It’s basically faked up with the phantom accounting profits. Ok all these companies make all this fake profit all the time, so where does the money go? They barely pay dividends.

    But USA and UK (who just injected 50billion into the economy last week) have been printing money hard. Greece/Europe has not in the same way. So eventually the UK/USA will come out first and are protecting themselves already they have a head start.

  21. George says:

    The political left is in retreat globally. Look at what has happened in Spain and Portugal and Ireland. They have all three thrown their socialists out of office. Beth, in your own country, I believe recent elections in New South Wales threw the left out of seats they had held for decades. In the US, state after state has been throwing Democrats out of the statehouse. The big untold story if the 2010 elections were the record number of Democrats thrown out of state legislatures and other statewide offices and it appears from polling that this trend will continue into 2012.

    But it isn’t just here in the US, it is global. The left is losing power, losing influence, and losing money.

  22. R. de Haan says:

    The NWO has nothing to do with left or right or democracy for that matter.
    Take the biggest Europhiles, read Globalists in Europe:

    Cameron, Sarkozy, the former Italian President Berlusconi.

    You can hardly call them lefties can you.

    Even three out of four Republican Presidential candidates are Globalists.

    Political battles based on the old trench lines of Democrats versus Republicans have no meaning anymore.

    It’s a diffusion from the real agenda.

    Too many people still don’t realize this.

  23. E.M.Smith says:

    @R. de Haan:

    You owe me 1/2 a day…

    Yes, I’ve now read (almost all) of that link to The Global Revolution. (It’s the usual mind numbing stuff from The Club Of Rome, full of lots of grand sweeping self aggrandizing Radical Revolutionary Important Stuff – that doesn’t quite make sense and doesn’t add up and seems just sort of broken, but Very Important and always with a vague sense of impending doom and unease… Unless, of course, you sign on to a Global Green Agenda and do what the nice UN tells you to do…)

    I figure my blood pressure will be back to normal by tomorrow…

    (Those crazy folks want nothing less than a complete top to bottom radical “do over” of the social, educational, economic, political, and governmental fields … and maybe a few more I forgot… all with a Central Authority / Distributed Cells structure and elimination of personal rights and national sovereignty [at least in any areas they care about] and they want it now… via influence pedaling and NGOs and the UN, but not via national governments doing the will of the people… And the way they write prose is very dull and numbing… )

    That link had a bunch of ‘pages missing’ in it (likely due to copyright; but I doubt if I missed much).

    @Hans Palmsteirna:

    “It’s just what I do…”, but glad you liked it…


    Sorry, but capitalism certainly DOES still exit. I think you are talking about the very small subset of “Laissez Faire free market capitalism” that is only one of the forms of capitalism:

    and it’s demise has approximately nothing to do with the military (and a whole lot to do with Rapacious Monopolists like J.P. Morgan and Rockefeller resulting in the anti-trust laws.

    Please “fact check” even just a little prior to posting such stuff. It really does make you look kind of silly.

    The USA has just stepped over the line into Lange Type Socialism, but it is a kind of Market Socialism characterized by partial government nationalization of a few industries in the context of a regulated capitalist market. Still a kind of capitalism, though of a socialist tinted flavor.

    There are plenty of other economies around the world that are what is called “Mixed Economies”. Capitalism with a Government Regulator.

    And several more sub-types…

    Per Syria:

    So, you don’t think them Shelling Homs nor the requests of the Arab League nor the constant support for and basing of Hamas / Hezbollah folks, nor the support for the destabilizing of Lebanon (that had been Christian) nor the roots in a Fascist Doctrine nor the support for all sorts of hostile acts has anything to do with it, eh? Just pipelines, eh?

    Yes, pipelines matter, but no, not that much. BTW, the one that goes to Israel from Egypt is blown up by Muslims in Egypt who hate Israel and have publicly stated that they think selling gas to Israel is evil and so they were going to keep blowing up the pipeline. Again, a trivial fact check would have found that.

    Also NOTE: I’ve given you a very long leash, but I’m getting tired of the “Rant and LOL” pattern. Do not start bull baiting over the Iran Nuclear Program in this thread (that is about historical patterns that got us to “here”, not about your conspiracy theories about “here”…) Iran has a nuclear bomb program and has now refused UN Inspection. To deny that is just to indulge in self deception. I see no reason to allow that kind of thing in this thread. ( I already let you pretty much trash the one about “what is likely to happen in Iran”, go put that dreck there.)


    Oh, and on the topic of tossing rocks at Masons, I ought to point out that my Father-in-law was a 3rd Degree Mason… and one of the finest men I’ve ever known. (101st Airborne W.W.II at Bastongne). Frankly, every Mason I’ve ever met has impressed me as a pretty decent person.

    @Adrian Camp:

    Thus my advice to only book 1st floor conference rooms in Prague ;-)

    @Jason Calley:

    That’s a bit to chew on…

    Yes, the Printing Press mattered. Now that every cell phone is a printing press it will have an impact, but that every tweet is now perpetual and government monitored will also have an impact. No idea where it all ends, though…

    I suspect that we are breaking up into ‘voluntary tribes’ embedded inside ‘national administrations’…

    @R. de Haan:

    I don’t see a religious agenda today (other than trying to eliminate it and replace it with a Green Goddess…), it was more about ‘what was in the past’. Today I think the ‘goal’ is “Secular Humanism” and they see hard core Islamist States as a threat to that goal.

    I also think they have sorely underestimated Russia and China… and will likely find that once they get the attention of The Average Joe and Jane in America, they will regret it… ala Pearl Harbor… $5 gasoline is likely to cause an epiphany Real Soon…

    That, and a load of cold and snow with rising food prices…


    I’ve noticed a difference in ‘cadence’ in N.W.O. when said as a descriptive term vs when said as a Grand Pronouncement. Not characterized enough to explain it, but something in the individual speech tends to flag ‘innocent’ vs ‘watch out’ for me.

  24. Ralph B says:

    I am just finishing a a good read about Peter The Great. It is amazing how he totally transformed Russia. Sweden was removed from world power status because of him, much of Germany, Poland, and Denmark were transformed as well because of that. He is one person who had a huge influence on where Europe is today. Another would be Bismark. I recommend reading Dreadnaught, it goes through European politics of the later 19th century (1800’s EM…). Germany was united because of him, he wrote the German constitution which due to its weaknesses under any other chancellor set up the path to WW1.
    If you don’t believe there is any form of supernatural intervention, read the whole story about how the Archduke was shot in Sarajevo. If that doesn’t make you go hmmm I don’t know what will. A great reference is “A World Undone” by G J Meyer. He also breaks down how the belligerents learned to squeeze more and more debt out of their countries, practices most governments are using today.

  25. adolfogiurfa says:

    @R. de Haan: So there are common masters…..

  26. adolfogiurfa says:

    @E.M.: Those crazy folks want nothing less….It is neither a future issue nor political fiction, there have been signed a lot of binding agreements, by the majority of countries, and they have been implemented in many countries already. As an example: National history it is not longer teach in several SA countries, only a few hints of it, science courses in primary and secondary schools have been reduced to a mockery…etc.
    GAS prices are already above US$8.- per gallon, etc.,etc. Everything contained in the Agenda 21 has been already tested in other countries; now is the time for the US people to “enjoy” all these (among them: land property it is not longer in the hand of nationals: Land Reform-promoted by the USIS during John Kennedy´s government took the property out from the hands of local “oligarchies”, to be substituted by the blessed international elite).
    What now happens in Venezuela is the removal of the local elites, in the name of a “Socialist Revolution of the XXI century”. Once it is accomplished “democracy” will return there.

  27. Scarlet Pumpernickel says:

    Lots of other countries have nuclear bomb programs too and don’t allow inspections. India, Pakistan, Israel. Saudi says it wants one too now, should we check them.

    Syria is just a fight between the government and the mercenaries from Libya.

    Russia is sending in more arms because they want to try to block the Iran-Iraq-Syria-Europe pipeline at all costs. It’s just a war to protect their gas and the west is wanting Syria under their control so that they can get this pipeline going.

  28. Scarlet Pumpernickel says:

    Sources in the Israeli consortium that oversees gas imports by Israel say the blast was “nowhere near” the main pipeline that runs into Israel. Instead, they say, it hit a pipeline that runs into western Jordan and then back into eastern Israel.

  29. Scarlet Pumpernickel says:

    The real purpose of claiming that free markets are the American ideal is to give the collectivist a scapegoat to blame for all their nefarious wealth redistribution programs. Too many of today’s activists have fallen for this intentional misdirection.

    Blaming free market capitalism for our economic problems is accusing a ghost. It has been dead for a long time. It was first stabbed in the back in 1913 when the U.S. Congress passed the Federal Reserve Act and the United States Revenue Act (creating the IRS).

    The Federal Reserve Act gave a private cartel of international bankers control over the very essence of a free market; our medium of exchange, our money. This put the free market into a death spiral. Now factor in the Legal Tender Act which prohibits any form of lawful money except the Federal Reserve Note. It is this Legal Tender Law that gives the Federal Reserve bankers their money monopoly. Without this law, individual enterprise could offer alternative commodity-backed money and compete with the FRB head to head. But honest competition is not what the elitist central planners want. Well, at least our new federal money still had some value. It was backed by gold, but not for long.

    What we have today is not free market capitalism, it is corporatism. Corporatism is a form of fascism, where big business and government work as partners at the expense of the productive class. We have the military/pharmaceutical/energy/media/industrial complex and the elitist central planners of big government ruling our country. We see a revolving door of big business CEO’s and bankers taking key government positions of power. They then move back into their private positions after accomplishing their goals of amassing great wealth for their friends and themselves. These are the outward signs of corporatism for everyone to see. But few are aware or care!

  30. adolfogiurfa says:

    @E.M.: Many “good people” with better intentions and the best hearts, have been cheated with those tales of “social justice” and “redistribution of wealth”.
    Who in the world could imagine that behind an anti tobacco campaign or an anti obesity campaign there is something bad? The majority of people think “they” want their well being and welfare…and we all know it is not, it is about power, power and money. But not “money” of “capital” from working capitalists but money from not working at all “ponzi schemers”.

    An economic bubble: A bubble is similar to a Ponzi scheme in that one participant gets paid by contributions from a subsequent participant (until inevitable collapse). A bubble involves ever-rising prices in an open market (for example stock, housing, or tulip bulbs) where prices rise because buyers bid more because prices are rising. Bubbles are often said to be based on the “greater fool” theory. As with the Ponzi scheme, the price exceeds the intrinsic value of the item, but unlike the Ponzi scheme, there is no person misrepresenting the intrinsic value.

  31. Scarlet Pumpernickel says: Russian gas prices keep rising. More incentive for the Syria/Iran wars

  32. adolfogiurfa says:

    To know where all this ends we only need to revisit the recent history of the 20th century.

  33. E.M.Smith says:

    Some folks are just “slow learners”…

    Earlier I’d said to S.P.:

    Also NOTE: I’ve given you a very long leash, but I’m getting tired of the “Rant and LOL” pattern. Do not start bull baiting over the Iran Nuclear Program in this thread (that is about historical patterns that got us to “here”, not about your conspiracy theories about “here”…)

    To which is the response:

    Lots of other countries have nuclear bomb programs too and don’t allow inspections. India, Pakistan, Israel. Saudi says it wants one too now, should we check them.

    Syria is just a fight between the government and the mercenaries from Libya.

    Sigh. So, do I allow threads to continue to be “overrun” with a few dozen “Rant – LOL” per day?

    Do I allow a historical retrospective / introspective thread that could be followed by an introspective deep discussion of the sweep of history into today; to instead be turned into a platform for yet more semi-paranoid conspiracy theories about an Evil USA looking to maintain global hegemony? About how we have it “in” for the Muslim World? How Russia is The Great Enemy again?

    Frankly, I’ve just gotten tired of sorting out the dozen or so “distractors” from the bits that contribute some value. It’s become more trouble to “sort and respond” than it’s worth (and consuming more time than I care to invest.)

    Add that to “failure to take direction well”…

    So S.P. now puts posts into the Moderation Queue. I’ll likely get to them once or twice a day, most days. Single line posts will likely be consolidated (so the 10 in a row with one link each will become one consolidated) and things that are just “pushing the same already made, and rejected, point again and again with a string of gratuitous LOL LOL LOL” will be “edited for relevance”.

    I’d really rather not have to do that, but the alternative is to have this become S.P.’s Blog with me just putting up a header comment each day as a “posting”… then endlessly trying to cope with distractors. I just don’t have the time for that, and don’t want that “atmosphere” here.

    Oh Well.

    Back At The Thread


    I hope you are wrong… but fear you are right. It does look like we’re headed for a ‘rerun’ of some of the prior history. I’ve been pondering “why”, and I’m torn between “personal greed and power lust” by whomever is “in charge” of that process, and “boredom coupled with ambition” by the same folks. Basically, are they trying to own the world, or just want to see if they can ‘win the game’…

    There is another difference between bubbles and Ponzis. A Ponzi Scheme is run by an individual or consortium as a conscious act. A bubble tends to be self generating as a consequence of a self created mass delusion (that may have some folks consciously ‘cheering it on’). So a ‘stock bubble’ happens when a lot of folks decide to believe a Story and start chasing it; then more pile onto the Momentum Stock… A Ponzi has someone selling a bogus stock, and then recruiting more buyers to rebuy that stock from the first crop, and then some…

    Basically, Ponzi schemes are a deliberate criminal act. Bubbles are an artifact of human herd behaviour and greed and often have no leaders and few conscious ‘cheer leaders’.

    I suppose my only hope for places like South America is that “binding agreements” get broken all the time. At some level, the population can just repudiate their governments…

    @Ralf B:

    Thanks, I’ll take a look at those two bio’s. It looks like it might help fill out the image…

  34. E.M.Smith says:

    @Beth Cooper:

    Glad you liked it! I tend to oscillate between a “grand sweep” overview, then a “dive deep” on particular bits of interest. I “vision” this as a series of pillars holding up an elevated platform of understanding.

    Most folks see learning / mastery as a solid vertical column. Build a foundation, then just keep adding stones. You end up with a tall, deep, but narrow “silo” of understanding. Conventional education tries to make a broad base of ‘general knowledge’, then builds the silo.

    I always had broad interests, and at about 10? 8? years old, realized that it was true that you could not build out ‘sideways’ without foundation – eventually as the leverage would break off the ‘too speculative and unsupported’ bits… That’s when I decided to do the “bridge and pillar”…

    So I make some pillars of ‘foundation’ then bridge between them with a floor of understanding… Lets me cover much more range with a workable base under it…

    I think most folks naturally do that, but it gets ‘trained out of them’ in school…

    Glad to hear that Australians are “deciding for themselves”. Nothing makes me happier than an independent bunch of folks saying “Nahhh” to the nose ring (ANY nose ring, from right or left or religion or…)


    It’s a good development, to see the pendulum start to swing. Unfortunately the “left” has found a way to advance the agenda when in power, then prevent or reduce the erosion when out. The “seats” oscillate but the agenda ratchets…

    @R. de Haan:

    I suspect, but can not prove, a ‘coordination’ of left / right, republican / democrat with both agreeing to accumulate more power, but haggle only over the marketing to keep the ‘swap’ between them about equal…

    Or it might be a natural artifact of human nature and adapting to public swings of opinion…

  35. George says:

    Unfortunately the “left” has found a way to advance the agenda when in power, then prevent or reduce the erosion when out.

    One of the mechanisms they will use is the creation of various bureaucracies that survive their terms in office. The left will have no problem in completely purging a department of appointees as Clinton did at the Justice Department when he took office. He purged the department of every single US Attorney in the DoJ and there wasn’t a peep about it in the press. When Bush attempted to replace 8 of them in his second term, you would have thought he was trying to do something “unprecedented” and was “politicizing” the DoJ. The press plays a huge role in this enabling such behavior or in attempting to constrain it. As we can see these days with the daily conference calls/meetings with such agitation groups as Media Matters and the current administration and other “journalists”, we have close coordination with the Obama administration and what appears in the press.

  36. George says:

    For example, we have this story today:

    Mr. Rendell, a former chairman of the Democratic National Committee, is teaming with George Norcross, the Democratic Party boss of southern New Jersey, and others in an effort to purchase the Philadelphia Inquirer, the Daily News and the company’s website,

    Papers have always shown a political bias going all the way back to Benjamin Franklin but what we haven’t seen before is a specific party “cornering” the media market in large areas of the country. I believe this will hasten the demise of these papers and push more people to the Internet to get greater perspective on issues.

  37. ecuamantis says:

    @E.M. Smith: “Somehow, despite all the changes, we’ve ended up letting those folks who lust most for power and domination set the agendas of government.”
    I often wondered the same thing until I discussed it with a friend that writes novels and was telling me about his latest research for a political novel. He pointed out that most political leaders and leaders of most corporations exhibit traits of a psychopath. The link below I think explains it best.
    Well worth the read as it explains so well the traits and links to the political elite and why the descendants of psychopaths breed more psychopaths. It helps to understand the traits of the psychopaths as we can easily be deceived by them and experience great pain and suffering from that.
    The book of Mathew in the bible discusses this as well:
    “Behold, I am sending you as lambs among wolves; be therefore crafty as snakes and innocent as doves.”

  38. w.w.wygart says:

    Well of course you have gotten the story more or less right in that the Thirty Years War represents the restructuring of the Medieval World into the Modern World, so very naturally you would have trace all of the Modern World’s ills back to that point. The devastation of the aftermath of the 30YW also represents the turning point at which Europeans pretty much gave up fighting over religion as fundamentally not worth it [too bad they would have to keep repeating the experience over and over again for the next three centuries in their quest for secular European unity].

    BTW, Spengler over at Asia Times On-Line and in his various books has much to say about the Thirty Years War and its restructuring of European politics and society as well.

    There are a number of other possible details of the aftermath of the 30YW to consider, such as the subsequent colonization by ethnic Germans of areas of Bohemia depopulated in that war [though they had been some there since the 14th century or even earlier] which would after World War the First in the area that then became Czechoslovakia would lead to the presence of a large number of Sudeten Germans which eventually became the political pretext that precipitated World War the Second.

    However, that may not be the most interesting version of the story of the Defenestration of Prague [the 2nd] to tell. Uncle Terrence [McKenna] used to go on and on about Rudolph II [Mad Rudolph to you and me] who’s peculiar interests if continued uninterrupted may have lead to a kind of Protestant alchemical renaissance centered in Bohemia which was unfortunately never realized due to the deposition of Rudolph by his brother Mathias in 1612 and the subsequent Hapsburg Catholic suppression after the unfortunate events surrounding the Winter King and Queen.

    But there is more.

    Uncle Terrence also used to tell the following story [raconteur that he was] back at least as far as 1991 about how exactly it came to be that René Descartes came to be the founder of modern empirical science.

    Mckenna: “When he was a young man of about 22 years old he [René Descartes] decided to go soldiering and wenching around Europe, which was something young men of that era did, and he joined a Hapsburg army which was on a mission to lay siege to the city of Prague in Bohemia to suppress what was essentially an alchemical revival, I won’t go into the details, but a young prince of the Northern League [Frederick, the Elector Palatine] and his queen who was the daughter of James of England and was named Elizabeth after her grandmother had managed to gain control of the Empire, had been elected in fact, he was called Frederick the Elector Palatine. And this Hapsburg army was sent to destroy this Protestant alchemical reformation, and it did so, it laid siege to the city, killed this young man and his queen fled to the Hague. And, then they retreated across Germany, and on I believe it was on the 17th of August that year which was 1619, the beginning year of the Thirty Years War, they made camp at Ulm in southern Germany – and, just as an aside, Ulm was later the birthplace of Albert Einstein – but on that night Descartes had a dream, and in the dream a radiant angel appeared to him and said, “The conquest of nature is to be accomplished through nature and measure,” and in that moment René Descartes went from being a nobody to being the founder of modern science. Modern science was founded at the direction of an angel, and the angel showed how it was, and to this day modern science has made all of its strides through the application of number – mathematical analysis and measure. That is the secret of the scientific conquest of nature, and it was a secret that was imparted to René Descartes by an angelic entity.”

    Thus the Thirty Years War represented not only the birth of modern political Europe, but the birth of modern empirical science – by angelic visitation.


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  40. Adrian Ashfield says:


    Thank you for an interesting and entertaining analysis.

    My suspicion is that religion is just used as an excuse. The root problem is human greed and lust for power. If religion didn’t seem to fit as an excuse for the war du jour, something else would be found. No way to prove it though. A butterfly flapping its wings somewhere might change everything.

    I still think you are wrong about Iran.

  41. pouncer says:

    The Baen Science Fiction publishing line has an ongoing series (written and edited by Eric Flint) where the “alien culture” confronting a small West Virginia town, weirdly transported thru spacetime to another world — is exactly the culture you’re studying. 1632. The year, and the very odd worldview.

    Free samples of the upcoming novel:

  42. Sera says:

    I sorta have to agree with Adrian Ashfield (22:22:13)- The war mongers know that a man will fight harder for his God/values than he will for his government. All wars are fought over land and resources and power (sometimes hatred and retribution), but if you convince your followers that it’s about their religion then, well, your troops might be a little bit more enthusiastic to ‘sign up’ and serve someone elses purpose in life.

    It also seems that history keeps repeating itself because that is the way this system is set up. Maybe there is nothing we can do about it in it’s present state. Like a mobius loop or something.

    Sorry to hear about your S.P. problem- too bad they don’t make a spray for that ; )

  43. Ralph B says:

    A classic quote from Bismark, “An English attack would be unthinkable as long as we don’t do something as utterly absurd as to fall on Holland or Belgium”. He said that around 1885

  44. adolfogiurfa says:

    @Ralph B…. But they fell on Brussels…and there the UK story ends for ever.

  45. Scarlet Pumpernickel says:

    Oh ok, so Syria is not about the Gas
    [ SNIP! ] Dramatically off topic for a thread about the grand sweep of history. -E.M.Smith
    Fine put me on moderation, but if you don’t want other opinions that’s silly.

    [It’s not about “other opinions”, it’s about maintaining some semblance of order Turning every thread into a conspiracy theory about Russian Gas and putting up 10 links in a row ends up being chaotic. I made my point, you rejected it. You made your point, I rejected it. After that both opinions are “up” and having a ‘does so – does not’ just drives everyone around the bend. So if you would like to put up a statement about the topics on THIS thread, go for it. For you theories about Iran and Syria, try the Iran thread where we’ve already thrashed it to death. -E.M.Smith]

  46. Pascvaks says:

    It’s impossible to really know, but entertaining to sometimes think, what some of the unwritten “thoughts” were that made the US Constitution what it ended up being. The issue of ‘religion’ was one that certainly involved a great deal of private reflection on the part of the drafters. An issue that has continued to plague us ever since and will for quite sometime. Imagine it was much more involved then than now, thanks to the gift of time. And, thanks to the ‘Age of Reason’, the authors appear to have been much more capable than any age since and now. No doubt some thought the same thoughts E.M. has noted, above, and came to the same general conclusions about the ‘March of Western Man Through the Tunnel of Time’. One area that I believe they really screwed up on was assuming that later generations would be smarter and more reasonable than they were. It’s a reasonable assumption, but they did ‘a s s u m e’ too much I fear.

    Ah well, in any case, they gave us and generations in the future a best guide that still merits careful study and wise immitation. How to break the back of the religious fanatic? That is the matter that the West has yet to solve. The Constitution is a rather good guide. Certain legal precidents merit study. Reason and a grounding in ethics will ice the cake.

    We often used the term “Judeo-Christian Ethic” to describe the foundation of our culture, I see no significant problem (I’m begging the question here;-) in a title change to ‘Western Ethic’ so the Muslim World doesn’t feel excluded, or ‘World Ethic’, or ‘Modern Ethic’, etc., etc.. What the US has today is not perfect, very likely does need tweeking, but I do think it is capable of using as the basis of a broader foundation for human interaction vis-a-vis “religion” and “non-religion” factions of all societies. If some country wants to make-like Saudi Arabia and go outside the club, that’s their perogative; I imagine they’ll last a little longer in the modern era. Not sure how long.

    Want to immigrate? Know the rules or face the terrible consequences of the culture and Ethos you’re joining. Works either way. Don’t expect to be able to tell your daughter what to wear, or who to marry, etc. and so and so in the US; and don’t plan on attending mass or a Baptist revival in a nice big church or circus tent in Saudi, and if you’re female, get to like the 99% ‘covered up’ fashion that hasn’t changed much in a few hundred years.

    Little planet. Many worlds. Life’s a beach. What is expected of you depends on where you stand, what you say and do, who your neighbor is, and what the common ethos is on your beach.

    PS: And it pays to also know the language, people don’t like folks who don’t know their language, but then sometimes, even if you do everything right, and don’t have an accent, you’re going to get your butt stomped (or worse).

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