Galactic Collisions and Our Ice Age

An odd potential exists that the collision of Sagittarius and The Milky Way has implications for our weather history. Perhaps even for why our present series of Ice Ages began. I don’t have any mechanism for it, but the time line is rather, er, interesting…

First off, the “backstory” is that we are aliens to The Milky Way. That’s part of why our solar system is at an odd angle to the galactic plane. (Normally spinning things tend to form such that the spin axis stays aligned. Conservation of angular momentum and all that.)

http://today.uci.edu/news/2011/09/nr_milkyway_110914.php

Milky Way’s spiral arms are the product of an intergalactic collision course
UC Irvine models show dark matter packs a punch

— Irvine, Calif., September 14, 2011 —

UC Irvine astronomers have shown how the Milky Way galaxy’s iconic spiral arms form, according to research published today in the journal Nature.

A dwarf galaxy named Sagittarius loaded with dark matter has careened twice through our much larger home galaxy in the past two billion years, according to telescope data and detailed simulations, and is lined up to do it again. As the galaxies collide, the force of the impact sends stars streaming from both in long loops. Those continue to swell with stars and are gradually tugged outward by the Milky Way’s rotation into a familiar ringed arm.
[…]
The smaller galaxy pays a steep price though – sucked inward repeatedly by the Milky Way’s mightier gravity, it’s being ripped apart by the blows, sending huge amounts of its stars and dark matter reeling into the new arms.
]…]
The Sagittarius galaxy is due to strike the southern face of the Milky Way disk fairly soon, Purcell said – in another 10 million years or so.

Billions of years, millions of years, it’s just “big stuff”… So the first couple of times this went by, I didn’t think much about it. So we were in another galaxy Billions of years ago. Now we’re in The Milky Way. What about things recently? ( Or so my usual line of attention goes…) But look again at what it said:

twice through our much larger home galaxy in the past two billion years”

So really only about 1 Billion for the last time through. Perhaps even less. If the next one is in just 10 Million (when the bit that was not captured last time returns) that’s 3 times in 2 Billion or about 660 Million years. That’s modestly recent on geologic time scales.

During one of those passes, our solar system got sucked off of Sagittarius and into The Milky Way. Don’t know if it was the first pass ( 2 Billion ) or the second ( 1 Billion to 660 Million) and don’t know what happens to our neighborhood in 10 Million… but it would be interesting to look in our geologic / biologic record for anything “odd” with those dates. 2 MY BP, 1 BY BP, 660 MY BP.

We also don’t know if we got ‘nabbed’ in the first pass, or the second. Or if they are evenly spaced or on a dampening time period for the ‘passes’. So what happened between 1 BY and 660 MY BP?

The parts measured in “Billions” are in the Precambrian. Near as I can tell, it was warm, wet, stable, and not much of interest happening in the first Billion of it.

Looking at geology we find an interesting bit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age#Major_ice_ages

Rocks from the earliest well established ice age, called the Huronian, formed around 2.4 to 2.1 Ga (billion years) ago during the early Proterozoic Eon.

So our first major Ice Age started just about the time of the first collision of the two galaxies…

The next, and worst, happens about the time of the second pass through. (I suspect this was the one where we got captured by The Milky Way. It was likely traumatic.)

The next well-documented ice age, and probably the most severe of the last billion years, occurred from 850 to 630 million years ago (the Cryogenian period) and may have produced a Snowball Earth in which glacial ice sheets reached the equator, possibly being ended by the accumulation of greenhouse gases such as CO2 produced by volcanoes. “The presence of ice on the continents and pack ice on the oceans would inhibit both silicate weathering and photosynthesis, which are the two major sinks for CO2 at present.” It has been suggested that the end of this ice age was responsible for the subsequent Ediacaran and Cambrian Explosion, though this model is recent and controversial.

http://park.org/Canada/Museum/extinction/venmass.html

Extinctions are proposed to have affected even life’s earliest organisms. About 650 million years ago, seventy percent of the dominant Precambrian flora and fauna perished in the first great extinction. This extinction strongly affected stromatolites and acritarchs, and was also the predetermining factor that encouraged the diversification of the following Vendian fauna. However, this distinct fauna, resembling modern-day soft-bodied organisms such as sea pens, jellyfish, and segmented worms also perished in a second extinction event at the close of the Vendian. This event, responsible for the demise of the Vendian organisms, may have been reponsible for the ensuing diversification of the Cambrian shelly fauna.

There was another minor Ice Age a bit later, then our present Ice Age (consisting of many Glacial periods) began.

The current ice age, the Pliocene-Quaternary glaciation, started about 2.58 million years ago during the late Pliocene, when the spread of ice sheets in the Northern Hemisphere began. Since then, the world has seen cycles of glaciation with ice sheets advancing and retreating on 40,000- and 100,000-year time scales called glacial periods, glacials or glacial advances, and interglacial periods, interglacials or glacial retreats. The earth is currently in an interglacial, and the last glacial period ended about 10,000 years ago. All that remains of the continental ice sheets are the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets and smaller glaciers such as on Baffin Island.

Just about the time we’re getting to a few million years to merger, again.

Speculation?

Effectively, we were part of a different galaxy prior to the onset of the Glaciations. Did they have onset about the time our old galaxy was starting to merge with The Milky Way? Was there a significant change in the amount of cosmic rays or interstellar dust? I have trouble believing such an event could happen and not mess them up to some degree. Nor would I expect the Sun to have been unaffected.

It’s also possibly part of why there’s an odd protrusion of stars out of the Galactic Plane near us (and some of the more active and interesting stars at that).

https://chiefio.wordpress.com/2012/01/25/belts-bubbles-galactic-rumbles/

When did our present Ice Age begin?
How far back for the onset of this round of glaciations and interglacials?
Is there a part of the smeared out Sagittarius near here now?

The stage prior to the Calabrian was, for a while, defined as being in a different age. It got moved up a bit. It isn’t typified by a ‘plunge into cold’ so much as by ‘some cold starts’.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelasian

The Gelasian was introduced in the geologic timescale in 1998. It is named after the Sicilian city of Gela in the south of the island. In 2009 it was moved from the Pliocene to the Pleistocene in order that the geologic time scale be more consistent with the key changes in Earth’s climate, oceans, and biota that occurred 2.588 million years ago.

The base of the Gelasian is defined magnetostratigraphically as the base of the Matuyama (C2r) chronozone (at the Gauss-Matuyama magnetostratigraphic boundary), isotopic stage 103. Above this point there are notable extinctions of the calcareous nannofossils: Discoaster pentaradiatus and Discoaster surculus. The GSSP for the Gelasian is located at the Monte Sant Nicola near Gela.

The top of the Gelasian is defined magnetostratigraphically as the end of the Olduvai (C2n) chronozone, and faunally as the extinction level of the calcareous nannofossil Discoaster brouweri (base of biozone CN13). Above the Gelasian as the first occurrences of the calcareous nannofossil Gephyrocapsa sp. and the extinction level of the planktonic foraminifer Globigerinoides extremus.

During the Gelasian the ice sheets in the Northern Hemisphere began to grow, which is seen as the beginning of the Quaternary ice age.

So I’m going to posit a ‘wild idea’ here.

About 2.5 to 2 Billion Years Before Present, we were in Sagittarius and just starting the merge process. Things started getting cold. “We” stayed in Sagittarius during this process, but didn’t get far. On ’round two’ we were fully captured by The Milky Way. In the process, we had a plunge into a very cold ice age glacial.

Then about 60 Million years ago a bit of a ‘Hobbit Galaxy’ whacked into the local area making Gould’s Belt. I would speculate it was some ‘left overs’ from the collision of Sagittarius a long ways back. In the process, a couple of fat stars had a very unusual ‘head on’ and gave us that ‘over supernova’ event that formed Gould’s Belt. After that, it quieted down again.

Our local changes mostly dominated by 50-60 Million years of ‘bobbing’ up and down in the local spiral arm area as we settle in.

Things warmed up again.

Then, just a couple of Million years ago, with parts of the Sagittarius galaxy returning, we started a new Ice Age with a new series of glacials.

But in 10 Million years, “something interesting” will happen, again… (That’s way short in evolutionary time scales). The main body of what’s left of the smeared out Sagittarius galaxy returns, for yet more merger mania.

There are some odd things about the evolution of the solar system and Earth that are puzzles. Things like The Faint Young Sun Paradox, for example. Yet in none of those have I seen folks considering what it means to the process if it is NOT a stable and steady evolution; if instead the solar system gets tossed around and the amount of galactic dust and cosmic rays get wildly changed by galactic mergers.

I think that matters.

We didn’t slowly evolve over 5 Billion years in our present place and configuration in The Milky Way. We evolved in an entirely different context. One that is now gone as the Old Sagittarius galaxy got mergered, smearing and stretching in the process.

One other small note. “Something big” happened about the time our solar system was formed, in that long gone Old Sagittarius galaxy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Precambrian

c. 4,570 Ma: A supernova explosion seeds our galactic neighborhood with heavy elements that will be incorporated into the Earth, and results in a shock wave in a dense region of the Milky Way galaxy. The Ca-Al-rich inclusions, which formed 2 million years before the chondrules, are a key signature of a supernova explosion.

4,567±3 Ma: Rapid collapse of hydrogen molecular cloud, forming a third-generation Population I star, the Sun, in a region of the Galactic Habitable Zone (GHZ), about 25,000 light years from the center of the Milky Way Galaxy.

4,566±2 Ma: A protoplanetary disc (from which Earth eventually forms) emerges around the young Sun, which is in its T Tauri stage.

Spectacular picture of the metallic spherical chondrules inside meteorites here:

http://www.saharamet.com/meteorite/chondrules/show.html

Notice a small problem with those first two dates?

Add the margin of error to the second one. You get 4,570 MY BP. Same as the first one…

So how did all the “stuff” travel from ‘far far away’ to get here from that supernova and form the Sun, while zero time passes?

Hmmm?

It sure looks to me like some kind of small nova event happened, a lot of ‘stuff’ stayed in the area, and it formed our present sun and solar system. Which would put the center of the ‘bang’, right on top of our Sun. You can have near zero travel time if you have local creation of materials… Without that local creation, there is one heck of a timing problem.

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About E.M.Smith

A technical managerial sort interested in things from Stonehenge to computer science. My present "hot buttons' are the mythology of Climate Change and ancient metrology; but things change...
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30 Responses to Galactic Collisions and Our Ice Age

  1. Sparks says:

    It’s Interesting how scientific theories are developed, sometimes, like a fantasy jigsaw puzzle.
    Our universe doesn’t have any edges or corner pieces, only man made imaginary boundaries.

  2. There is room for confusion here, it seems to me, on several levels: Astronomers are still apparently trying to sort out “collision” versus “orbit with tidal effects.” The orbit may have brought Sag DEG closer many times in the last billion years or two. Sag DEG (not to be confused with Sag DEG) seems likely to have lost a lot of its mass in the meantime, but it is apparently only a fraction of a percent (about 1/10,000) of the Milky Way’s mass now. I’d not heard that Sol was originally a Sag DEG star, and that’s interesting indeed.

    Using Google Scholar, a number of papers are accessible as they try to work out the parameters going back not quite two decades.

    Restrict this search to 2012, and the paper at the top of the list is free:
    http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,5&q=sagittarius+collision
    But many others can be had by clicking on the PDF links at right.

    It’s an interesting topic, and I look forward to more details.

    It seems to me that the ice age of the past few million is likely unrelated, as it seems to tie to the re-route of ocean flow when Central America was sealed off by volcanic uprising. It was open previously, and the Gulf Stream flowed into the Pacific. Now that the heat is forced northward, somehow that seems to make ice ages. I wrote a bit about that situation here.

    ===|==============/ Keith DeHavelle

  3. Sandy McClintock says:

    Wow!
    I read
    http://www.space.dtu.dk/English/Research/Research_divisions/Sun_Climate.aspx
    and was intreagued. See Fig 3 in particular. He says our solar system is rotating around the centre of the Milky Way at a DIFFERENT speed to the many other stars. I explained this to my self in terms of 2 galaxies merging, just like you describe :))
    The key to seeing Svensmark’s view-point is to understand that we move in and out of spiral arms as we rotate around the Milky Way centre.
    While we are in the arms, we get more protons hitting the earth, and get more clouds and it gets cooler.
    While we are between arms, with fewer neighbours, we get fewer GCR protons and we get warmer.

  4. Sandy McClintock says:

    FYI Svensmark’s thoughts are contained in email Q and A
    Me to Svensmark
    “… figure 3 looks at 500 million years for what appears to be a partial orbit, but in your film (The Cloud Mystery) talks about 250 million years for our sun to make a full orbit of the centre of the Milky Way. Have I misunderstood?
    Svensmark to me
    “Well an orbit for the solar system is 220-250 Myr, so in the figure with time interval of 500 Myr, corresponds to about two orbits. However the spiral arms are also moving presumably with half the speed of the disk stars (and sun). So in 500 Myr the solar system will cross all 4 spiral arms. Therefore there are four maxima in the figure over the 500 Myr.
    Hope this helps.”

  5. E.M.Smith says:

    @Keith DeHavelle:

    Near as I can tell they are still in the “Is so, is not” haggling phase. Are we from Sagittarius, or just got disrupted as all the other stuff ‘flew by’? I suspect the definitive answer may take a while to sort out. ( It may be impossible to sort out.)

    It doesn’t change the time line much, just a nudge to the narrative, if it is instead:

    “So we were sitting peacefully in a very different Old Milky Way when Sagittarius ran through and mixed everything up, pulling out spiral arms and stirring the pot”. Other than that change, the narrative stays the same.

    It’s possible either way, IMHO. Per the first article linked, the spiral arms, where we are found in an outer band, are created from the “collision” (that is actually mostly just a gravitational collision as most stars just whiz past each other) and created from material from both galaxies, with the smaller one being absorbed into the larger.

    That implies that many of the stars in the arms (especially the outer arms) will be from the Sagittarius galaxy and many from the Milky Way ( I’d speculate the number from The Milky Way increasing the closer you are to the core, as the core gravitation would bind them more strongly). To the extent that is true, we’d have about 60% odds of being from Sagittarius.

    Don’t know how to sort it out more than that. Perhaps some population study of number of each kind and age in the Sagittarius remnant vs The Milky Way or a population vs arm position?

    At any rate, while I’m leaning toward “We’re Sagittarians” at about a 60% level, I don’t think it can be stated categorically just yet… That’s why I flagged this as speculation.

    @Sandy McClintock:

    Yes, the whole spiral arm dynamic thing is rather complex. The arms are ‘density waves’ so the actual stars in one at any one time change. The stars rotate at one set of speeds and the “arms” as a congestion zone at another. Like peristaltic waves of ‘traffic jam’ on the freeway, sometimes one set of cars is stopped, sometimes another. ( Gravitationally, we get slowed down as a ‘wave’ approaches so it catches up and overtakes, making us part of it, but then we lag as it pulls away, and then get gravitationally pulled to faster speeds, but eventually left behind. Until the next density wave starts to catch up… Similarly, we bob ‘up’ out of the plane and get pulled back by the greater mass ‘below’ us, only to shoot through and ‘bob’ out the other side, where gravity now attracts us back toward the plane of rotation…)

    So not only do we periodically enter and exit this arm via ‘bobbing’, but we periodically leave this arm and get caught up in the next… repeat.

    The thesis in the article is that a Proto Milky Way and an Old Sagittarius “collided” but with lots of “dark matter” in Sagittarius (so the model works out right – something that worries me… but figure it for a lot of black holes…). The big dark matter blobs tend to get pulled more into the core, and the Sagittarius stars get sucked out into long swoops (along with some Proto Milky Way starts) that then form arms of density waves as the combined angular momentums pull it all down into one flat disk with one rotation.

    Pictures here:

    http://www.solstation.com/x-objects/sag-deg.htm

    Including a description of the difference between Sag DEG and Sag DIG which is what I think Keith was meaning to point out.

    SagDEG is the Milky Way’s nearest known neighbor and comprised of mostly old, yellowish stars. Astrophysicist Rosemary Wyse of Johns Hopkins University has estimated that as much as 10 percent of the stars in the Milky Way’s halo came from dwarf galaxies like SagDEG, merging with the Milky Way over the past eight billion years or so. (In November 2003, astronomers announced that an even closer galaxy (located 25,000 ly from Sol and 42,000 ly from the galactic center) called the Canis Major dwarf may be losing stars to the Milky Way’s disk as well.)

    So with at least 2 and maybe more ‘contributors’ figuring out just which one we came from might be a bit tricky ;-)

    In about 2.2 Billion Years Andromeda gets here to join the party.

    It looks to me like, on the time scale of 1/2 to 1 Billion Years, galaxy merger is a common event.

    We need to keep that in mind when thinking about nearly 5 BY of Sol history. It has grown up in a neighborhood prone to change and what we see now is not what it was like a few BY ago.

  6. Sparks says:

    Galaxy pairs are interesting, they’re either moving towards each other or away from each other. apparently they are the majority, in our observed universe.

  7. Pascvaks says:

    (-; We have just got to be The Fallen Angels, those cast out into the darkness –in a manner of speaking– doomed to never see The Face of God, doomed to forever reincarnate in different times and places and ask “Who am I?” and “How did I get here?” and “Where am I?” and “What is all this around me?” and “When did it happen?” and never to know the true reason “Why?” ;-)

    Just imagine. It would explain a lot. (-; In a manner of speaking ;-)

    Y’know, we must’ve done something real bad. I wonder what it was?

    Then again…

    Y’think it all just, y’know, kind’a just happened?

  8. Panther77 says:

    I wonder if every once in a while, we pass another star system and life seeds from that system as we pass near it? Or even still, robotic aliens check up on their little experiment ;))))

    This is an interesting book about the robotic aliens which may exist. SNIP! Looks like shilling for a book / product. And it’s about SETI not ‘robotic aliens’. -E.M.Smith

  9. Panther77 says:

    Do any of these timeperiods occur at the same time as this bombardment? http://phys.org/news/2012-04-splatters-molten-period-intense-asteroid.html

  10. adolfogiurfa says:

    @Pascvaks: You are right as always, though to be precise those fallen angels were another tribe; ours had an accident according to forgotten traditions.
    As for the absolutely wrong concepts about the mechanics of the universe, it is fair to mention the great contributions, ignored by those members of the “pebbles universe” community, those from the consensual/politico “science”, those self conceited people, sons and daughter of daddy and mommy who, lacking that “common sense”, swallowed entirely the tale of a phantoms´universe, concocted along the 20th. century.
    The universe is 99.99999% plasma, the fourth state of matter, and the rest of it, it is but the same in a state of transient charges´equilibrium, which make us believe on its “solidity”, while everything behaves as moving charges, moved by attraction and repulsion, in an eternal dance of loving partners.
    http://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/2011/10/17/essential-guide-to-the-eu-chapter-2/
    http://www.giurfa.com/unified_field.pdf

  11. p.g.sharrow says:

    Nothing stays the same. Even GOD evolves. pg

  12. Æthelwold of Wessex says:

    We’ll have our old “Iron Sun” mate over here soon!

  13. R. de Haan says:

    Very interesting article.
    Svensmakr talked about the ice ages correlating with our solar system traveling through the spiral arms of the milky way.

    Years ago I heard a story about our solar system heading into a huge hot gas cloud that was going to effect our solar weather and climate for the next 10.000 years.

    This story came back when the Voyagers reached the outskirts of our solar system and it’s sensors reported a dense gas cloud. Interesting enough I once again read about the period of 10.000 years it would take for our solar system to cross this gas cloud.

    No conclusions were drawn about what effects this gas cloud could have on our climate.

    I try to find the original NASA publications about the subject.

    Anyhow, can imagine how snowball earth looks and I can imagine how a scorched planet looks.

    Both are unsustainable for our current civilization.

  14. R. de Haan says:

    Here are the publications:
    Here is the first article I read about.
    http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1978ApJ...223..589V

    Here is the article that remembered me about the first article
    http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2009/23dec_voyager/

    Both articles went on to live their own life beefed up with stories of pending armageddon, mass extinction and other BS.

  15. adolfogiurfa says:

    @R.de Haan: This story came back when the Voyagers … What the voyagers found was the Sun´s external electric cocoon or “double layer”.
    http://www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=74fgmwne

  16. DocMartyn says:

    The answer is in the Dust, plot log(dust) vs temperature. Increases in dust precede the drop in temperature and the fall in dust levels occurs before the temperature spike.

  17. gallopingcamel says:

    The trouble with these interesting speculations is that they contradict the idea that CO2 is the major factor controlling global climate, so they won’t attract significant funding.

  18. E.M.Smith says:

    @GallopingCamel:

    “Significant” being anything above zero…

    @DocMartyn:

    Somewhat poetic to think of the small insignificant dust as being so important ;-)

    @R de Haan:

    Yes, I suspect the interstellar ‘cloud’ is part of the old neighborhood in Sagittarius… the early part of the return…

    @Æthelwold of Wessex :

    Well, you have to admit that with the times listed, the Sun forms 3 Million years before the nova makes the stuff from which it forms; OR, you add ALL of the error band to it and the nova happens the same time as the sun forms without ANY travel time for materials.

    Does kind of argue for Sun as nova ‘leftovers’….

    @Sparks:

    Looks to me like it can be bigger than pairs, too. Maybe we just don’t see the really small clusters tagging along with other galaxies…

  19. Pascvaks says:

    Alas, poor Nemesis, I knew him well. Henseforth, and evermore, he shall be only seen and remembered as dust between the stars.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemesis_(hypothetical_star)

  20. Gary says:

    This scenario sounds a bit like a primary plot point in E.E. “Doc” Smith’s Lensman series. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lensman_series

  21. adolfogiurfa says:

    As times passes by, as these “interesting times” go on, it is evident that we need to know as we suspect we are going to be caught by surprise with unsuspected and unexpected facts.

  22. R. de Haan says:

    adolfogiurfa says:
    26 April 2012 at 11:13 pm
    @R.de Haan: This story came back when the Voyagers … What the voyagers found was the Sun´s external electric cocoon or “double layer”.
    http://www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=74fgmwne

    I took notice of the “double layer article Adolfo, thanks but the second link I posted is about the cloud:

    “Right: Voyager flies through the outer bounds of the heliosphere en route to interstellar space. A strong magnetic field reported by Opher et al in the Dec. 24, 2009, issue of Nature is delineated in yellow. Image copyright 2009, The American Museum of Natural History. [larger image]
    The discovery has implications for the future when the solar system will eventually bump into other, similar clouds in our arm of the Milky Way galaxy.

    Sign up for EXPRESS SCIENCE NEWS delivery
    Astronomers call the cloud we’re running into now the Local Interstellar Cloud or “Local Fluff” for short. It’s about 30 light years wide and contains a wispy mixture of hydrogen and helium atoms at a temperature of 6000 C. The existential mystery of the Fluff has to do with its surroundings. About 10 million years ago, a cluster of supernovas exploded nearby, creating a giant bubble of million-degree gas. The Fluff is completely surrounded by this high-pressure supernova exhaust and should be crushed or dispersed by it.
    “The observed temperature and density of the local cloud do not provide enough pressure to resist the ‘crushing action’ of the hot gas around it,” says Opher.
    So how does the Fluff survive? The Voyagers have found an answer bla, bla, bla.
    See: http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2009/23dec_voyager/

    There are many more articles about this subject on the web now but most of them published on IMO dubious sites as explained earlier.

  23. E.M.Smith says:

    @Pascvaks:

    You got me chucking with that one! Never thought of mixing Shakespeare with astrophysics before ;-)

    If you check the image in the first article linked ( I’d have put a copy here but don’t know the copyright status) you see Sagittarius as a large ‘hoop’ around the outside of The Milky Way. That implies impacts on the outer regions more than the inner and on two opposite sides of the Milky Way at the same time. (On source says ‘we’ are ‘on the other side’ from Sagittarius, I think they are talking about the main mass and not realizing the smeared out circle like nature which would put us in the tail on the other side…)

    So is Nemisis in that cloud? Or is it a general reference to that “stuff” that keeps coming around…

    @Gary:

    I’d forgotten about Lensmen. Don’t think I ever read the books, but the story line looks interesting.

    Interesting that he set it 2 BY BP…

    @R. de Haan & Adolfo:

    It is becoming pretty clear that the ‘stuff’ way ‘out there’ is clearly important to what happens here. That we’re starting to whack into the ‘local fluff’ that has a structure that can’t be explained is, er, “interesting”… in a “may you live in interesting times” kind of way…

  24. R. de Haan says:

    E.M.Smith says:
    27 April 2012 at 9:48 pm
    @R. de Haan & Adolfo:

    “It is becoming pretty clear that the ‘stuff’ way ‘out there’ is clearly important to what happens here. That we’re starting to whack into the ‘local fluff’ that has a structure that can’t be explained is, er, “interesting”… in a “may you live in interesting times” kind of way…”

    You can say that….
    I really like this subject and I really like your eloquent approach in regard to the “settled” (nothing is settled if you ask me), published science on the subject and your conclusion that their timing tables of events in time and space don’t add up.

    One thing is for sure, we still have a long way to go and a lot of puzzling to perform.

    With all the recently acquired technology that allow us to take “a finger print” from sediment cores that allow us to determine the origin of past volcanic eruptions, the global seismic network, the eyes in the sky, the remote sensing technology we have in space right now and all the nice stuff “underway”, we sure live in interesting times.

    It’s like Adolfo said some postings earlier, we are going to do some interesting discoveries soon and within a few decades we will acquire some substantial understanding about what makes our world tick. For this purpose we will simply ignore the “political scientists” who don’t play by the rules.

    But despite all the knowledge we require, we will remain temporary fellow travelers on this great planet. So let’s enjoy the show and make the best of it.

    I really love the internet.

  25. adolfogiurfa says:

    @R.de Haan: Those “discoveries in a few decades” could be right now if, for example, an intelligent person, having access to all data, to all pieces of the puzzle could arrange them properly. The KEY it is known from old, however it has been studied and regarded as “symbolic”.
    Our wise ancestors, in every culture, left a message EVERYWHERE, the problem of understanding is twofold: Either truth is rejected because of fear or it is plainly not perceived, as it is not “perceived” a high frequency emission with a low frequency receiver. Higher energies to be perceived (resonate) need a similar energy level (In order to make “gold” you need to have “gold”).
    As an example, “liberalism” strongly rejects the existence of a lawful universe, because it entails responsibility, ethics; rather they prefer chaos and anarchism. This has been called by psychiatry the rejection of the “father”.

  26. Pascvaks says:

    Went off looking for more info on Mercury’s magnetic field and ended up thinking that it’s just gotta’ be a matter of centuries (if we’re lucky;-) before we get into terraforming Venus by crashing Mercury into her and letting the old Earth-Moon Metamorphesis Thing happen again. Bet it wouldn’t be too hard once we get the anti-gravity propulsion problem licked. Just think, two Earths and two Moons. Anybody know that Brit Billionaire with the hair on his face that’s into all that ‘Virgin’ stuff? Bet he would be interested, Venus-Virgin why it’s a natural. (The idea of terraforming Mars kind’a seemed a little too Pie-In-The-Sky to me, but maybe we could plow it into Earth sometime and restart the Carbon Clock –after we get Venus virginated I mean — I’m sure Al Gore and the Warmests wouldn’t mind

    PS: Nearly forgot… (SarcOff)…. No, we’ll never be that smart. No way, Jose!

  27. E.M.Smith says:

    @Pascvaks:

    We could do it with a gravity tug ship. Have to be a big one, though…. and it would take a long time.

    It would be a lot easier, and a lot faster, to just start tossing asteroids, comets, and KBO’s into Mars. It would both provide the missing volatiles (water, air) and warm up the place enough to recreate a melted core and get the magnetic field back. The warming bit would work better with U and Th rich asteroids… Couple of million years, tops!

    But while it’s technically possible to terraform Mars, it would be a lot easier, faster, and much more effective to just build orbital space colonies from the Asteroid material instead. Why try to turn a giant gravity well and massive solid object into Earth Like Conditions when all you really need is a thin film inside a metal can? Make them about 5 km long and you won’t even notice any significant difference between spin and gravity. Coat with about 4 meters of slag from the metal forming process and you get radiation shielding and protection from minor impacts too.

    Much easier. Though “Virgin slag covered spinning metal can” may need a bit of work…

  28. adolfogiurfa says:

    @Pascvaks ANYTHING circling the Sun, any conductor, at that distance, will develop a big electromagnetic field, as it would become charged. Mercury´s charge is denoted by its big eccentricity and by its peculiar movement.
    http://www.giurfa.com/unified_field.xlsx

  29. p.g.sharrow says:

    Terra forming Mars may be doable with foreseeable technology, Venus would be much harder. Way too close to the sun. The best place for Venus is to swap places with Mars, A twofer. But a very tricky maneuver as Earth may get in the way!
    I prefer the slag cover cans. Why go back into the gravity well if you obtain true space travel. Just may as well be “as beasts of the field” once more. But then, that is what the Watermelons want.
    I must go back to construction of the propulsion system. One more coil to complete. ;-) pg

  30. omanuel says:

    Sorry I overlooked this posting earlier. I will return.

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