An Idiocy of Innocence of Muslims

OK, I’m getting used to the ongoing stream of “Those idiots did WHAT?” when it comes to… what to call it… it is variously termed “the Arab Street” or “the Muslim World” or several other things. The basic pattern is pretty clear. Somebody gets their panties in a bunch over something that’s really not very important, other groups exploit it to flame violence, then our idiots in government come out to try to sooth and smooth the whole thing.

So this fairly crappy ( in terms of production values at a minimum from what I’ve seen in the clips ) “Movie” comes out. Produced, if you can call it that, in Los Angeles. Some YouTube trailers go up, and all sorts of folks in the “Muslim World” decide to demonstrate their complete lack of self control and tolerance by having a tantrum. Well, I’m OK with that. The answer to offensive speech is, as Noam Chomsky said, more speech, not less. So some rube in L.A. is a movie maker “wannabe” and makes an attention getting bit of “D” grade film; fine, go out and call him on it. Say it’s crap and say you find it offensive.

But then things take a turn that I find incredibly offensive. At least as offensive as any “insult” to Mohammed. INNOCENT people are killed via mob violence directed at folks completely unrelated to the movie making. That there is ample evidence for it being an artificial act, one planned well in advance and orchestrated, only makes it worse.

Evidence for that? First off, the date. The attacks on the US Embassy sites were done on 9/11. That is no accident. Second, the level of force. The attackers showed up with heavy guns, trucks, and rocket launchers. They didn’t just get angry and decide to go have a rally, they planned a military operation.

Bottom line is that the embassy staff were killed by hyper-emotional idiots “acting out” and killing folks completely unrelated to the real stimulus of their “rage”. Led and directed by organized forces acting against the U.S. Government, cause be damned.

Then our idiots ( Madam Hillary and Sheik Obama) go on TV and apologize for it and talk dirt about the “movie”. This is just so stupid. First off, it tells the folks behind creating the (artificial?) rage and event that THEY have the power to jerk the chain of the Secretary Of State and POTUS any time they want. But worse, it validates the “knight fork” strategy. Pick some “insult” to islam (no, no capital, not when they are behaving like spoiled children having a tantrum) and then through a tantrum, mix in some violence, aim it at the USA and pay no attention to actual ‘guilt’ or cause. Now sit back and wait. Now the USA either needs to express sympathy for your POV and cause (such as condemning free speech), or be drenched in blame. Nice maneuvering. As long as the US Govt chooses to play along…

IMHO, the only correct answer here is simple: The SOS and POTUS ought to have gone on TV and given a speech about the nature of freedom, that we have freedom of speech in the USA (for now…) and point out that the US Govt has no relationship with private speech, can not ban or forbid it, and that is a good thing. Then suggest that any folks wishing to peacefully express a counter point of view to the movie is free to do so, here… THEN SHUT UP. (I’m tempted to say they ought to also state that any violence will be met with appropriate responses and criminal actors will be hunted and brought to justice; but that, in this context, just gives more for the instigators to work with; so ought to be in a different venue.)

Unless and until the US Govt Representatives recognize that they must stand up and explain / advocate for our way of life, for our rights, and for our freedoms; they will remain in the ‘knight fork’ trap, looking weak and easily manipulated on TV, apologizing for being American.

Some Video Clips

It took a while to find out just what was what. Oddly, it was the Israeli news on Mosaic on Link TV that actually gave out the name of the movie AND the fact that the producer of the movie is an American Jew (Link TV is a very left wing, Arab Friendly, ‘user supported’ TV channel that I regularly watch. Mosaic gives 5 minute or so chunks of news broadcasts from many Middle East country broadcasts, including Israel. The contrast can be very enlightening). At that point, I figured it would be easy enough to find the particular trailers on YouTube without as much time spent trying to find a ‘handle’ with which to search.

The name is “Innocence of Muslims”. There are now several “trailers” up on YouTube. A couple of them come withe the “warning” that the trailer has been flagged as “offensive” by some number of YouTube users (one can expect that the Islamists are busy with their phone trees telling folks to go flag for removal). So I have no idea how long any one of these links will continue to work. If they fail, I expect new ones will show up from other posters, but it is likely to be a game of “whack a mole” for a while.

I’ve only watched 2 of the trailers so far. They are pretty poor. Something of about High School or maybe first year film class in college level. What I’ve seen has some truth in it (in that some of the ‘set dressing’ and ‘side stories’ are historically accurate); but is heavily slanted for the worst possible point of view on that history. Presenting Mohammed as a mix of insanity with stupidity and violence. In other words, it’s pretty crappy stuff.

Sadly, by having a hissy fit about it, the muslim nutcakes (no caps here either, they are not worth it…) have given the producer more advertizing and more viewers than he could ever have hoped for in his wildest dreams. Rather like “Satanic Verses”, which I bought when they started a “ban it” activity. Became a ‘best seller’ over night. (Someday I may even read mine ;-) Read a few pages, but it was not engaging enough to keep me reading.

So, OK, the muslim nutcases want to remove MY freedom of speech (and more importantly, my freedom of reading, listening, and watching; and judging for myself). I answer with “Freedom of speech is exactly for speech you find offensive. If you only have freedom of speech for things with which you agree, there is no freedom of speech.” ( A rough paraphrase of Noam Chomsky.)

With that, here’s some links. No, I am NOT endorsing them. I am advocating for the RIGHT of freedom of speech even by those with whom I do not agree. We will see how long YouTube takes to ‘cave to pressure’…

One link claims to be “the whole movie”. As it is 6 minutes long, ether that is one heck of a small movie for causing so much fuss, or it isn’t the whole thing… I’ve not watched it yet; figured I’d get this posted first, then get into the race condition with censorship via watching the actual clips. So I’ve got no idea what is in the whole thing. Right after that are some copies of ‘trailers’. I have no idea how much is redundant, which will go “poof!”, or which are not representative.

This one claims to be the “original movie” and matches the trailers below:

This one claims to be the “full movie” but has very different content and production:

Update:

This video (that is basically a set of text slides set to music) says that the original trailer is the 11 minute one, and that the movie in full is 2 hours. ( I don’t know if I could sit through 2 hours of that poor a production value rant movie…) I think it is correct, as I’ve now watched the various clips. The 11 minute one looks like the original trailer, and has the usual “jump cuts” and lack of organization of a trailer. It hints at a more complete story, following the line of history over longer stretch. The smaller “trailers” look like folks picking out bits of it to make “me too” videos (either to frustrate the “whack a mole” censors or to clip some ad income from a hot topic).

That means there’s a lot more “legs” to this story as the whole 2 hour movie comes out. Generally I buy a copy of anything that folks try to “ban” or vilify just to make the point that MY freedom to choose is NOT up to them to change. (As did a whole lot of other folks for the Satanic Verses book, so I’m not alone…) Given the fairly crappy quality of the clips, I’m not sure I could hold my nose and buy the DVD “someday”… Partly because I’m also not interested in rewarding folks who are deliberately trying to exploit artificially created outrage for personal gain. At any rate, I think this clip is a decent example of a sane and balanced response from what looks like a “moderate Muslim”. So I have some hope.

In Conclusion

IMHO, Islam (with a capital, as I’m talking about the whole group, not just the nutcakes in the street) has taken a very bad turn. It has started to deify Mohammed. They have turned The Prophet into an Icon. To be worshiped and NEVER treated as an ordinary man. Despite their nearly rabid attacking of all icons, they are in the process of turning Mohammed into one. Never mind that we KNOW Mohammed was ‘just a man’. Never mind that Islam and the Koran teach that he was just a man, who happened to be a prophet. (Much as it teaches that Christ was just a man who happened to be a prophet – one of the reasons they go ballistic over Catholics and the Trinity as it deifies Jesus. Well, that and the iconic pictures of Jesus and Mary. Yet they have started to have their own iconic images of Mohammed as more than just a man…)

So WHY be so upset about “insults” to Mohammed if he is KNOWN to be just a man who happens to be a prophet? Hmmm? Perhaps because they don’t like insults to THEIR Icon Of Islam? History pretty well confirms he was just a man, so will have had all the failings of all men. Saying that is in conformance with the Koran. Denial of it is what is un-islamic. The Prophet was not some demi-god of perfection. Treating him that way is an insult to the teachings of the Koran, IMHO. He had a life as an ordinary man prior to finding God and Religion (Christian religion, BTW… remember that he taught from a copy of The Bible and preached a kind of Christianity. Only after his death did it change into “only the Koran” and nothing Christian… That is historical fact as well. One exploited by Islamists when it suits them to cite the story of Mary and other Biblical connections, but conveniently ignored at other times.)

So, IMHO, what we have here is a Plethora Of Idiots. On ALL sides. The Jewish Idiot who made a bad film designed to insult and inflame. The Muslim Idiots who let themselves be inflamed by it. The Arab Street that has let instigators and The Muslim Brotherhood (and others) inflame them into attacking innocent folks, unrelated to the source of the insults. The Muslim World Idiots for not recognizing that the only effective way to deal with insulting speech is counter speech, not censorship nor violence. And our Government Idiots, for letting themselves be led around by the nose, choosing between “condemn our way of life, freedoms, and liberties; endorse our enemies” or “We accept the blame”. Not having the courage to stand for truth, that “we” are not involved and THEY are being “useful idiots” at best.

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About E.M.Smith

A technical managerial sort interested in things from Stonehenge to computer science. My present "hot buttons' are the mythology of Climate Change and ancient metrology; but things change...
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110 Responses to An Idiocy of Innocence of Muslims

  1. jim2 says:

    Obama enabled the “Arab Spring,” aka Muslim Brotherhood Spring, and now the rest of us will pay the price. Obama is an idiot.

  2. rdrevilo says:

    Great Piece. Please feel free to check my blog out and follow @rdrevilo

  3. GT says:

    SOS and POTUS need to say one more thing: “We will defend our embassies vigorously when attacked.” Then they need to do it. No more, no less.

  4. R. de Haan says:

    Al Zawahri personally ordered Al Qaeda to murder US Ambassador Stevens
    DEBKAfile Exclusive Report September 12, 2012, 10:04 PM (GMT+02:00) Tags:  Al Qaeda   US diplomats   Libya

    US Ambassador Chris Stevens vehicle on fire
    The US Ambassador to Libya Chris Stevens and three staff members at the US consulate in Benghazi were deliberately murdered Tuesday night Sept 11 just after memorial ceremonies were held in America for the victims of the 9/11 outrage. DEBKAfile’s counter-terror sources report exclusively that far from being a spontaneous raid by angry Islamists, it was a professionally executed terrorist operation by a professional Al Qaeda assassination team, whose 20 members acted under the orders of their leader Ayman al Zawahri after special training. They were all Libyans, freed last year from prisons where they were serving sentences for terrorism passed during the late Muammar Qaddafi’s rule.
    In a video tape released a few hours before the attack, Zawahri called on the faithful to take revenge on the United States for liquidating one of the organization’s top operatives, Libyan-born Abu Yahya al-Libi in June by a US drone in northwestern Pakistan.
    Its release was the “go” signal for the hit team to attack the US diplomats in Benghazi.
    To mask their mission, they stormed the consulate on the back of a violent protest by hundreds of Islamists against a film said to insult Prophet Muhammed produced by a Florida real estate agent called Sam Bacile, who has been described as of Israeli origin.
    The operation is rated by terror experts as the most ambitious outrage al Qaeda has pulled off in the last decade. According to our sources, the gunmen split into two groups of 10 each and struck in two stages:
    1. They first fired rockets at the consulate building on the assumption that the ambassador’s bodyguards would grab him, race him out of the building and drive him to a safe place under the protection of the US secret service;
    2.  The second group was able to identify the getaway vehicle and the ambassador’s armed escort and lay in wait to ambush them. The gunmen then closed in and killed the ambassador and his bodyguards at point blank range.
    DEBKAfile’s intelligence sources report that the investigation launched by US counter-terror and clandestine services is focusing on finding out why no clue was picked up of the coming attack by any intelligence body and how al Qaeda’s preparations for the attack which took place inside Libya went unnoticed by any surveillance authority.

  5. BobN says:

    This has been in planning for a while, the move was just a convenient thing to hang their rage on. If not the movie, something else.
    We have freedom of speech in this country, they better get used to it as they will always become incensed over something. Why aren’t we outraged over their killing of Christians and burning their churches.
    Our society is not compatible with Islam, it will not end well.

  6. adolfogiurfa says:

    Who are the masters?

  7. R. de Haan says:

    The religion of peace demonstrates their respect for other religions http://stevengoddard.wordpress.com/2012/09/12/september-2012-the-religion-of-peace-demonstrates-their-respect-for-other-religions/

    Islam and freedom of speech…. Amending the First Amendment: http://stevengoddard.wordpress.com/2012/09/13/amending-the-first-amendment/

    This is what you get when your Commander in Chief publicly distance himself from prvious US policies and openly supports the Muslim Brotherhood. Hopefully his ass will be kicked during the elections.

  8. hillbilly33 says:

    Hi Chiefio. Long time no post but been a busy old boy.
    Apologies for being outrageously O/T but I know you’r einterested in tAussie politics and his could be so important in so many ways for Australia’s future.

    People ask, “What did PM Julia Gillard do wrong”.? Let’s hear it straight from Julia herself at her 23/8/12 “ambush” press conference!

    “I assisted with provision of advice re the setting up of the workplace reform association. I had no involvement in the working of the association. I provided advice in relation to its establishment and that was it.”

    The only possible lawful legal advice she could have given was “Bruce, I represent the AWU and unless you have written authorisation from the Branch Executive or a resolution from the National Executive under Rules 51 & 54 of the AWU, you simply cannot set up an association and I can’t assist you”!

    That she chose to ignore those Rules and assist him to set up and incorporate an association enabling him to unlawfully open Bank A/c’s to deposit AWU moneys and put them to his own use makes her an accomplice or accessory from day one!

    The sworn Affidavit of Joint National Secretary of the AWU, Ian Cambridge, sets out in great detail why that sham association should not have been set up!

    PS Still bloody cold in Tasmania!

  9. EM – I never bothered to read the “Satanic Verses”, and I don’t feel the need to watch this film either just because it’s famous. It’s impolite to poke fun at anyone’s religion, and I try to avoid it for this reason rather than threats of violence.

    I feel that the violence in Islam is a power-play by the people ruling it. Muslim friends of mine have been normal, polite people – I don’t notice the religion. In the past, the same has been done for Christianity. Protestants V Catholics, too. When I was a kid, the churchgoers looked down on the chapelgoers, and vice-versa.

    The murders are simply that. Possibly the film was released to give a reason for the violence. Recently a Muslim cleric was arrested for putting burnt Koran pages in the bag of a Christian girl in Pakistan, and then denounced her for heresy (a killing offence there). She’s most likely innocent. Religion seems to be used as an excuse for violence, rather than something that teaches you to be a good non-violent citizen.

  10. dearieme says:

    You can’t argue both “killed by hyper-emotional idiots” and ” there is ample evidence for it being an artificial act, one planned well in advance and orchestrated”. These are mutually contradictory. The second sounds much likelier to me: it’s a calculated attempt to get a stupid response out of the USA. So was 9/11, and that worked only too well. Mind you, this stunt wasn’t brave and daring; it didn’t need to be since the USA stupidly collaborated in the overthrow of Gaddafi and then sent some of its people, hopelessly underprotected, into Libya to be targets.

  11. R. de Haan says:

    Still obesity outranks terrorism in termes of National Threats to the USA: http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2012/09/12/FLOTUS-Obesity-Absolutely-Greatest-Threat-To-National-Security

  12. E.M.Smith says:

    @Dearime:

    Um, yes I can say both, as it is two different groups of folks. The basic assault planned in advance by a core group. The rest of the crowd being the hyper-emotional cover group. As I don’t know exactly who was killed by which parts of the whole, both can be culpable for some parts.

    @Simon:

    Taking the “high road” is fine, unless the opposition is setting you up via exploitation of those “high road” behaviours. That is why I point out that THE thing likely to work is to state plainly and clearly that what “they” are doing is stupid and that “we” have liberty and so the Government has nothing to say on the subject.

    An assault on freedom must be resisted, or the assault will prevail, if for no other reason than that “serial compromise” is asymptotic to loss of liberty.

    And while I generally agree that many folks exploit religion for violence, some religions PROMOTE violence via their teachings. The Koran is chock full of ‘off with his head’ and other violent exhortations. (As is some of the Bible – but we ‘got over it’ after several hundred years… and no longer teach it.) Look at the various Muslim Clerics and you find a LOT of hate and violence being taught and advocated.

    If you’ve not read the Koran, I suggest that you do ( as mind numbing as some of it can be). The frequency with which “peace” is followed or preceded by “be violent” is astounding. Very Schizo..

    @Hillbilly33:

    Interesting… I’ll look into the story a bit after dinner. Cold in Tasmania, eh? ;-)

    @Adolfo:

    I think even they do not know. IMHO there’s an ongoing “power play” with shifting alliances. Old Europe Aristocracy vs Russia and hangers on vs Official Islam vs American Elite vs… with China and Japan playing the usual ‘close to the vest’ Asian Inscrutable Game in partial alliances. When a ‘consensus’ or ‘quorum’ can form, we get broad movement in the global stage. When not, we get a variety of “disruptions” that break out. (From the argument over how to handle Syria to Iran to Spain saying “not so fast” to the EU, to Britain staying out of the Euro, to Prince Whohaw of Britain looking forward to the Grand Game Redux vs Russia to Putin playing with gas pipelines, to…)

    So “who are they” changes year to year, and what they want shifts year to year. With that, the methods and systems used shift. There is NO “grand THEY”, only a contest of global ‘leaders’ in a shifting tableau. “They” meet in various places and say they all agree on things, then many run out and do exactly the opposite, or sit on the sidelines. Lots of lies, from them to us, and from them to them. Right now “they” include Putin and the Chinese Central Committee, the EU Parliament and the English Royal Family, along with the American Rich and the heads of multinational corporations among many others. And the only things you can say about “them” with certainty is that “they” all have different goals and agendas, and fleecing US is one of the few things on which they all agree…

    @R. de Haan:

    So I can be arrested on terrorism suspicion if I’m pudgy? After all, I’m a threat to the national security…

    (No, no smiley… I can actually see that happening eventually…)

  13. EM – I have to admit that my first reaction is “Kill the Bastards”. I then cool off and remember that I can’t treat “them” as a group. The guy down the road who happens to be Muslim is not responsible for something another Muslim does, in the same way as I’m not responsible for what another English person does.

    When someone does something malicious, it’s often hard to find the right target to attack.

  14. adolfogiurfa says:

    @E.M.: But, let´s think,…you are an economist so you could find what´s the business behind this. There is nothing done for free (at least among “them” smart guys), so what would it be the gains or profits out of this?

  15. agimarc says:

    I wonder about the play of the Iranians in all of this, specifically the Iranian Revolutionary Guards. Last week the Canadians closed their embassy in Tehran and kicked out the remaining Iranian diplomats from Canada apparently on intel that something big was up. Have read that the Iranians are cozying up nicely with the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. Thinking that the Al Qaeda link is operational disinformation for the Iranians. We have killed an awful lot of them over the last decade. In fact, the only ones that should still be at full fighting strength are the MB, IRG and ISI. Perhaps they are next up to bat, for if they want to play, it is long past time to include them in the game. Cheers –

  16. BobN says:

    @adolfogiurfa – Economics is a secondary issue. The Muslim religion teaches that it needs to conquer the world and convert or kill the infidels. That would be you or me. The Muslim Brotherhood is trying to Unite the middle east in a religious Caliphate and seems to be doing a good job. Everything will be complete when they get the house of Saud to fall, expect it soon.

    @ agimarc – The Iranians are now engages with talks with the Egyptians. The Egyptians are moving tanks and troops to the Sinai, which is against the treaty with Israel. The noose is tightening and it looks pretty dire for Israel. I fully expect Israel to pop its nukes all over the Arab world in its attempt to survive. Israel has been countering the move with their own tank columns into the Sinai. Once these events started in the past they have never pulled back without engagement.

  17. R. de Haan says:

    Israeli military, security forces on alert for anti-US Palestinian and Israeli-Arab riots
    DEBKAfile Special Report September 13, 2012, 11:15 PM (GMT+02:00) Tags: Arab protests Barack Obama Mohamed Morsi US Middle East Islamists Israeli security

    US embassy mobbed by Cairo Islamists
    In the wake of the anti-US Islamist turbulence sweeping Arab capitals, Israel has posted additional military, police and security forces in the West Bank, opposite the Gaza Strip and among Israeli Arab communities following information received that all three are preparing to stage big anti-American protests Friday, Sept. 14, which could easily spill over into Israel.
    DEBKAfile: The Palestinian Authority hopes to re-direct West Bank and East Jerusalem anger against PA leaders Mahmoud Abbas and Salam Fayad into an anti-US channel, while Hamas is under orders from the Muslim Brotherhood in Cairo to fill the streets of Gaza with protesters against the alleged anti-Muslim film produced in the US in sync with a big Brotherhood demonstration in Cairo Friday.
    Several scores of Israeli Arabs, members of the extremist Northern Section of the Islamic Movement, demonstrated outside the US embassy in Tel Aviv Thursday, chanting anti-American slogans and praise for the Prophet Muhammad.
    Israeli authorities are bracing for this small demonstration to swell in numbers after Friday prayers at the mosques and send large numbers of Palestinians and Israeli Muslims out on the streets to replicate the riots against the US spreading Thursday through Libya, Egypt, Yemen, Tunisia, Sudan, Iran, Iraq, Morocco and Bangladesh since the deaths of US ambassador Chris Stevens and three of his staff in a premeditated Al Qaeda attack in Benghazi Tuesday, Sept. 11.
    DEBKAfile’s Washington sources report that the anti-US ferment sweeping Arab capitals in the last three days finds Obama administration policy-makers in two minds about how it fits into the bigger picture of the Arab Spring and its aftermath. According to one interpretation, the tumult has a domestic motive, and was stirred up or exploited to weaken the new rulers thrown up by the Arab Spring while at the same time dimming US influence in the region.
    This view holds that radical Islamists, ranging from Salafites to groups associated with Al Qaeda, are fanning the flames to start a process that will lead to the overthrow of the overly “moderate” Muslim Brotherhood, which is the bedrock of the relationship President Obama is striving to build between the United States and the post-revolution Arab world.
    The advocates of this approach say America must maintain the flow of economic and political assistance to Brotherhood-led regimes, notably President Mohamed Morsi of Egypt, to help them stay on their feet against the violent buffeting of radical Islamists.
    The other Washington camp takes the opposite line, arguing that “moderate” Islamic rulers like Morsi are in no danger at all and are in fact riding the anger of the masses over the film deriding Islam to solidify their grip on power at the expense of America’s unpopularity among Muslims.
    To prove this point, they offer three examples:
    1. Since becoming president, Morsi has never retracted statements he made denying al Qaeda’s responsibility for the 9/11 attacks in America. Brotherhood Secretary General Mahmoud Hussein pinned the attacks on “one of the intelligence services in America, or the Jews.” The Brotherhood still stands by the conspiracy theory that the US staged the atrocity to villify Islam.
    2. Morsi, who has been invited to the White House at the end of this month, refrained from condemning the murder of four US diplomats in Libya or offering the Egyptian people’s condolences to the US for its loss. He also waited 24 hours before issuing a tepid statement against the militants who stormed the US embassy in Cairo. he made no mention of the black al Qaeda flags hoisted above the US embassy in Cairo after the Stars and Stripes was torn down. Instead, the Egyptian president instructed his embassy in Washington to prepare a suit against the film’s director. That was before he turned out embarrassingly to be an Egyptian Copt.
    3. Thursday, Brotherhood websites aired divergent messages on their English and Arabic sites: In English, protesters were exhorted to exercise restraint. There were also words of self-congratulation that the US embassy gates were not broken down and no Americans harmed. In Arabic, the Egyptian masses were called out to demonstrate en masse Friday against the made-in-the-USA film.
    That demonstration will be carefully watched to see whether it is quiet or veers into violence and anti-American outbursts. That will be the test of Morsi’s bone fides in American eyes. However, its main importance as he sees it is as a demonstration that the Brotherhood has regained control of the streets of Cairo.
    It was to show the Egyptian president that he is still on trial in Washington, that President Obama said Thursday that the US would no longer consider the Egyptian government an ally, “but we don’t consider them an enemy. …I think we are going to have to see how they respond to this incident, to see how they respond to maintaining the peace treaty with Israel.” he said.
    The way ahead is unclear for Washington as well as Jerusalem. The anti-US ferment in Arab capitals may just be starting. Its next directions and duration are still imponderable. Israel prepares to celebrate the New Year next week surrounded by extreme volatility among its neighbors.

  18. R. de Haan says:

    Headlines Drudge:

    Exclusive: America ‘was warned of embassy attack but did nothing’…
    State Dept ‘had credible information 48 hours before’…
    Revealed: Inside story of ambassador’s assassination…
    Sensitive documents go missing…
    Exposed: Names of Libyans who are working with Americans…
    Was ‘revenge for drone strike’…
    ‘There were 400 attackers’…
    OBAMA ADMINSITRATION DENIES…
    PAPER: Egypt intelligence warned on Sept. 4 of possible attacks…

  19. hillbilly33 says:

    Thanks Chiefo. Check out Michael Smith. He’s the one who quit his job rather than submit to PM Gillard’s bullying. He wanted to question her on matters raised in a Stat Dec. before he was doing an interview on air 2UE, Sydney, with the gentleman concerned, a former AWU official Bob Kernohan, still trying to get Union members stolen money back. PM got on phone to Boss, interview pulled 10 minutes prior to airing, Mike quit and got a settlement. He’s now leading a quiet people’s revolution unlike anything I’ve ever seen before. Momentum is building. Here are my latest efforts.
    hillbilly33 comment@10-14am
    http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/2012/09/the-awu-scandal-gillard-slush-fund-rips-off-bcitf.html
    or
    hillbilly33comment at end of page
    http://www.kangaroocourtofaustralia.com/2012/08/26/prima-facie-case-to-charge-julia-gillard-with-concealing-a-serious-indictable-offence-in-awu-scandal/

  20. E.M.Smith says:

    @Simon:

    I suspect you have “swallowed the line” that “The Satanic Verses” is anti-Muslim doggerel. It isn’t. That’s part of what made the “outrage” at it, so pathetic. It’s a novel mostly about Indian people. There is one ‘dream sequence’ in it, that has a Mohamed character that makes reference to The Satanic Verses (which have some basis in fact as having existed).

    From the wiki:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Satanic_Verses

    Plot

    The Satanic Verses consists of a frame narrative, using elements of magical realism, interlaced with a series of sub-plots that are narrated as dream visions experienced by one of the protagonists. The frame narrative, like many other stories by Rushdie, involves Indian expatriates in contemporary England. The two protagonists, Gibreel Farishta and Saladin Chamcha, are both actors of Indian Muslim background. Farishta is a Bollywood superstar who specializes in playing Hindu deities. (The character is partly based on Indian film stars Amitabh Bachchan and Rama Rao.) Chamcha is an emigrant who has broken with his Indian identity and works as a voiceover artist in England.

    At the beginning of the novel, both are trapped in a hijacked plane during a flight from India to Britain. The plane explodes over the English Channel, but the two are magically saved. In a miraculous transformation, Farishta takes on the personality of the archangel Gibreel, and Chamcha that of a devil. Farishta’s transformation can be read on a realistic level as the symptom of the protagonist’s developing schizophrenia. Chamcha is arrested and passes through an ordeal of police abuse as a suspected illegal immigrant.

    Both characters struggle to piece their lives back together. Farishta seeks and finds his lost love, the English mountaineer Allie Cone, but their relationship is overshadowed by his mental illness. Chamcha, having miraculously regained his human shape, wants to take revenge on Farishta for having forsaken him after their common fall from the hijacked plane. He does so by fostering Farishta’s pathological jealousy and thus destroying his relationship with Allie. In another moment of crisis, Farishta realizes what Chamcha has done, but forgives him and even saves his life.

    Both return to India. Farishta, still suffering from his illness, kills Allie in another outbreak of jealousy and then commits suicide. Chamcha, who has found not only forgiveness from Farishta but also reconciliation with his estranged father and his own Indian identity, decides to remain in India.

    So, not exactly a hotbed of politics and / or ‘poking’ at Islam. And I think you can see why I haven’t read my copy and became disinterested after some pages. Just not that into Bollywood… But on to the dream sequence:

    Dream sequences

    Embedded in this story is a series of half-magic dream vision narratives, ascribed to the disturbed mind of Gibreel Farishta. They are linked together by many thematic details as well as by the common motifs of divine revelation, religious faith and fanaticism, and doubt.

    One of these sequences contains most of the elements that have been criticized as offensive to Muslims. It is a transformed re-narration of the life of Muhammad (called “Mahound” or “the Messenger” in the novel) in Mecca (“Jahilia”). At its centre is the episode of the Satanic Verses, in which the prophet first proclaims a revelation in favour of the old polytheistic deities, but later renounces this as an error induced by Shaitan. There are also two opponents of the “Messenger”: a demonic heathen priestess, Hind, and an irreverent skeptic and satirical poet, Baal. When the prophet returns to the city in triumph, Baal goes into hiding in an underground brothel, where the prostitutes assume the identities of the prophet’s wives. Also, one of the prophet’s companions claims that he, doubting the “Messenger”‘s authenticity, has subtly altered portions of the Quran as they were dictated to him.

    There actually is scholarship saying that the Satanic Verses existed:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_Verses

    The Satanic Verses are a small number of apparently pagan verses that were temporarily included in the Qur’an by the Islamic prophet Muhammad, only to be later removed. Narratives derived from hadith involving these verses can be read in, among other places, the biographies of Muhammad by al-Wāqidī, Ibn Sa’d (who was a scribe of Waqidi), al-Tabarī, and Ibn Ishaq (the last as reconstructed by Alfred Guillaume).

    The first use of the expression ‘Satanic Verses’ is attributed to Sir William Muir (1858)
    […]
    The Satanic Verses incident is reported in the tafsir and the sira-maghazi literature dating from the first two centuries of Islam, and is reported in the respective tafsīr corpuses transmitted from almost every Qur’anic commentator of note in the first two centuries of the hijra. It seems to have constituted a standard element in the memory of the early Muslim community about the life of Muhammad. The earliest biography of Muhammad, Ibn Ishaq (761-767) is lost but his collection of traditions survives mainly in two sources: Ibn Hisham (833) and al-Tabari (915). The story appears in al-Tabari, who includes Ibn Ishaq in the chain of transmission, but not in Ibn Hisham. Ibn Sa’d and Al-Waqidi, two other early biographers of Muhammad relate the story. Scholars such as Uri Rubin and Shahab Ahmed and Guillaume hold that the report was in Ibn Ishaq, while Alford T. Welch holds the report has not been presumably present in the Ibn Ishaq.

    So in the middle of a NOVEL about Indians, with a polytheistic theme, there is a DREAM SEQUENCE that is based strongly on actual history, where in a “Mohammed like” character recreates some of the (more or less documented) history in a satirical way, so set the mood for more of the NOVEL.

    Not exactly high on my “poking” at other folks religion meter… In fact, when I went out of my way to find that section, and read it, I found it dreadfully dull. (Most dream sequences do that for me… they are largely emotional gush and disconnect from the major plot line in self indulgent fluff.)

    That strong “disconnect” between the actual “offense” and the reaction was why I bought a copy (as did several friends, who also didn’t manage to read the whole thing…)

    Now the ‘clips’ here ARE clearly offensive. (And have even less redeeming artistic value). And that’s why I’m unlikely to actually watch the whole movie (for a price at some theatre) nor buy the DVD. Just don’t see a reason to give money to folks making a poor product. Despite the desire to support ‘freedom of speech’, as it looks like ‘trash made to be inciting for the purpose of artificial buzz’, IMHO.

    BTW, I do not have a “kill the bastards” emotional response. I typically want no hurt to come to anyone ( it’s a long story…) My emotional response is largely limited to “God they are so STUPID.” And nothing offends me like Stupid Writ Large. The “Ambassador” knew what he was getting into as did the staff. Heck, watch the CIA lobby and see how many new stars show up on the wall in the next couple of months… I’d wager at least 2 from that embassy… So not a lot of emotion about folks taking hazardous duty pay discovering it comes with hazards…

    That, then, is followed by some “indignation” at attempts to take my freedom from me or to muzzle others. Finished up with a touch of resolve to do what the POTUS was too wimpy to do: Demonstrate how Freedom Of Speech works buy putting up links to the particular speech I find “pretty bad” as an example of promoting freedom of speech even for speech with which I do not agree. (i.e. mostly driven by principle, not emotion.)

    Frankly, I’m as peeved at the POTUS and Madam Hillary for being apologists for America as I am about the embassy being torched. Had they just said “We have freedom of speech, get over it.” I’d likely have had a positive spin on the whole thing. (Why I’ll never be POTUS, reason 5,043,439: I’d have held a press conference where I’d have SCREENED THE CLIP, then given a critique of it and asked that the Muslim World, if they didn’t like it, make their own clip and I’d screen it as well. I’d also have asked the news reporters to keep the cameras running during the screening… i.e. give the ‘offensive speech’ air time. Then explain about setting an example of how freedom of speech works…. Yeah, I know, the riots would have been worse and more people would be killed. Like I said, why I’m not POTUS ;-)

    @Adolfo:

    No, I’m not going to play the game of 20 questions until you manage to reposition enough that it’s clear you think it is Evil Jewish Banker Bastards. I know you have that bias, and it is not welcome here, no matter how indirectly you want to try playing towards it.

    There is no “One World Order”. There are many forces vying for influence. The bankers do not make the money from the banks, the OWNERS of the banks do. Jews are not any more evil than anyone else. I’ve known good ones and I’ve known bad ones. Many more good ones than in several other populations of folks I’ve known, BTW.

    BTW, you DO know that an Arab Sheik is one of THE major owners of Citibank… and that a Gentile – Warren Buffett, owns more bank stocks that anyone else… Birkshire Hathaway owns large chunks of Wells Fargo and BofA, along with some others.

    So needling and wheedling about it does nothing for your ’cause’.

    Muslims have regularly declared that Israel ought to be destroyed and all Jews killed. For that reason alone, I ‘cut the Jews a lot of slack’ on things like making movies that insult Muslims. It’s called “symmetry”. Part of my “be a mirror” philosophy. So if the Muslims are evil toward Jews, then Jews are justified in being evil in return; they can ‘be the mirror’…

    Yes, that is antithetical to Christian Traditions of “turn the other cheek”. I tried that (a lot) and got a lot of bruised cheeks. Once I adopted “be the mirror”, the bruises stopped… At it’s core, that is why Obama and the Dims fail. They think “If we are nice, they will eventually be nice too.” That is “exactly wrong”. Israel has it right. “Eye for an eye. Tooth for a tooth.”

    Get over it.

  21. E.M.Smith says:

    @Agrimarc:

    Good points… Interesting that the Canuks had intel going… Smart folks up north…

    Sunni and Shia hate each other viscerally and enjoy nothing more than killing each other off, except cooperating to kill off Infidels…

    So I’d expect to see Iran working every angle it can to stir up trouble for us. No doubt about it.

    Islam also teaches to accept alliances with enemies against larger enemies. So no problem working together for a while… and getting back to killing off each other, later. (It’s like a husband and wife fight, and we are the neighbor they BOTH hate getting in the middle of it… expect to be attacked by both of them…)

    @BobN:

    About right. Don’t forget, though, that Saud has bought the best army in the world. Ours….

    It’s going to get very interesting, and I think it will take longer too.

    Got a cite for the tank movements? I’d not heard of that happening. Not good…

    I don’t think that Israel will need to use nukes. They have a lot of good tank killer capacity. We’ve sold them Apache Helicopters, for example.

    @R. de Haan:

    Interesting perspective.

    I wonder if our Idiots In Chief will ever figure out that they are ALWAYS being played by the various factions of Muslims. The only thing that they can really do is leave, taking the money with them, or bomb the hell out of folks. The Koran specifically commands that Muslims are not to take infidels as friends, so we can never be “friends”. Ever. It does allow for temporary alliances of convenience; so they let us be their Air Force in Libya, but once that is over, we are just supposed to convert or die. The Koran says so…

    @Hillbilly33:

    Michael Smith, eh? Guess what the M stands for. ;-)

    Gotta luv ’em…. FWIW, there is one Mike Smith per 2000 of working population in Silicon Valley (and anywhere else I’ve worked). So at Apple there were 10,000 folks when I was there, and 5 Mike Smiths. IIRC, Michael Smith also runs ANZ the Australia New Zealand bank group…

    Most extreme example: Once, about 30 years ago, Mike Smith was watching TV when Mike Smith, the reporter on the news, reported the death of Mike Smith in a boating accident…

    Honest. It happened…

    FWIW: There is a Club of Fred Smith, for all the Fred Smiths of the world.

    So best of luck with the efforts down under…

    (You know, I wonder if I’m related to any of them… My Mother’s Mother’s maiden name was Smith. Completely unrelated group to Dad, which had been in America since 1700 something. But Mom’s Dad and his brother spent a lot of time in Australia – they were sailors H.M.M.M. and the brother moved there. So I’m definitely related to a bunch of Sumners ‘down under’. Don’t know if any of the Smith’s made it… )

  22. Pascvaks says:

    Think of it (and I’m talking about all the ‘its’ you can think of) as a “Game”. Sometimes the hardest part about playing games is learning the rules. I’ve had the impression that the current administration thinks that playing other people’s games is more fun than making other people play their game, in fact I’ve often wondered that if I’m wrong what the hell the current administration’s game is. I’m sure they have one, everyone has one. If they don’t have one that would be stupid, right? That would be like the Schzoid Economics, right? Do you think we could figure out their game (and where they’re taking us) by looking at where they started and where they (we) are now?

    PS: People use people to play The Game.

  23. philjourdan says:

    Well, I have to give you some thanks for posting the narrative about Satanic Verses. I never felt the need to buy the book, and only knew what is caused, not what it was about. I almost fell asleep reading just the synopsis, so I can see why you have not progressed beyond a few pages.

    What I saw in this tragedy is a weak man caving to terrorism, and a strong man condemning it. Unfortunately the wrong man is president.

  24. R. de Haan says:

    Arababian falll update: Egypt, Libya, Yemen, Morocco, Tunesia, Sudan and now Lebanon
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/arabian-fall-update-egypt-libya-yemen-morrocco-tunisia-sudan-and-now-lebanon

  25. Pascvaks says:

    Always liked the title “When World’s Collide”, didn’t you? It says so much about who we are and where we’re going, and has for the past 15,000 years or so. One planet, many worlds, and lots of colliding. It’s “The Game”; and it hasn’t changed much in 6 Million years. Damn! We sure live in exciting times! Can’t beat it with a stick!

    PS: The world as we know it is a figment of our immaginations, reality is what you can personally reach out and touch, and who and what touches you. When the figments start to flutter, reach out and personally touch as many and as much as you can. The best way to defend a cave is to have lots of friends who live in and around the same cave you do, and think that it and you are worth protecting. Local churches and temples, and etc.’s, have been important for more things than just religion and etc. for thousands of years. Have faith! Think safe! Don’t go Alone! Etc.

  26. jim2 says:

    For t hose who want to avoid blaming Muslims “as a group,” it is their culture that causes this sort of thing. Their culture mandates Islam as government, intolerance of other religions, intolerance of anyone not a Muslim. I think we can blame them as a group. Consider the culture of the Japanese of WWII. It is debatable that they would have ever changed their suicidal approach to life had the US not hit them extremely hard. I’m thinking we need to give many of the Middle Eastern countries a definitive, brutal lesson. Maybe then they will see the world won’t tolerate their backwards culture.

  27. Jason Calley says:

    There is something I find very interesting about the movie, but which I have not seen much comment on. The movie as presented in the trailer (horrible and poorly done as it is) seems to be a make-over of the original film. Listen to the soundtrack and you will hear that essentially all the anti-Islamic script was dubbed over the original dialog. Judging from the sound balance and slight echo of the dialog, I would say that the original film was made in an enclosed space with hard walls. In contrast, the anti-Islamic lines were dubbed over in a standard sound studio with proper sound deadening materials in it. The sound quality is a plain give away, even in sections where you cannot see the mismatch of mouth to words.

    Regardless of who made the film, what the process was, or even whether the current film is a redubbing of original dialog, there seems no doubt that the current film was made as propaganda (and I mean that word “propaganda” in the old sense of a presentation of ideas without reference to whether it is true or false) to influence a group of people. The question becomes “which group” and “to what end?” The most obvious choices are: first, perhaps to attempt to convince people (Christian or Muslim) that Islam is scorn worthy. Alternatively, perhaps it was designed and produced with the desire to motivate Muslims to violence such as we have seen.

    There is at least one other possibility which I can think of. It may be a psy-ops project aimed at Americans and Europeans, and designed to influence how we interpret the motivations of the people who have attacked the US and its various outposts. At the risk of stirring up a hornets nest (and with the VERY CLEAR statement that I personally do NOT support initiation of violence by Muslims, Christians or Jews) let me just point out that the US and its allies have been responsible for killing a lot of women, children and other non-combatants. Note that I am not even stating an opinion on justification or lack of it, only saying that in the process of our national involvement overseas we have left a lot of dead and injured people. This is what warfare today is like, even with so-called smart bombs and laser guidance. The day that the American people begin to think about the realities of warfare is the day that we begin a reconsideration of whether we should have our soldiers in so many conflicts around the world. If the companies and individuals which are collectively earning hundreds of billions of dollars from the current wars have any hope of maintaining their income stream, they need the American people to believe that the people of Egypt, Libya, Iraq, etc., are irrational hoards of unreasoning jihaddists intent on goose-stepping across the North American continent. To anyone who really agrees with the idea that this film was the motivation for the recent attacks, this silly, almost ludicrous, film provides what would seem to be clear evidence of such irrationality.

    If it seems unlikely that the people of the United States would be subject to psychological operations to mold public perception (and to generate public support for military operations) you may wish to read “Truth From These Podia,” a paper by USAF Colonel Sam Gardiner, a former instructor of strategy and military operations at the National War College, Air
    War College and at the Naval War College.
    http://www.usnews.com/usnews/politics/whispers/documents/truth.pdf
    This document is nine years old now. I read it when it first came out, and in the times since then I have not found a reason to think it unbelievable.

  28. E.M.Smith says:

    @Pascvaks:

    A lot of the Democrate / Obama “Game” make much more sense if you ask one question:

    “Will this advance the Socialist / Communist Manifesto model of the downfall of the Capitalist and rise of the Workers Revolution?”….

    When you expect and even want the collapse of the US Dollar, the destruction of US Imperialist Power, the resentment of the proletariat and the nationalization of industries, well, suddenly there’s a lot less “conflict” between what he does and what is happening…

    @PhilJourdan:

    You are welcome.

    I probably out to point out, too, that the dream sequence was from a character that was at the time supposed to be mentally ill. So I guess you can’t even have a crazy person in a novel dreaming about Mohammed with a historically correct setting; if it casts any negative light on The Prophet…

    Hmmmm…. Maybe I’ll get it down of the shelf and see if I can use it as a sleep aid ;-)

    @Jim2:

    There are several “cultures” of Islam. Frankly, it is the battle between them that has caused much of the grief in the Middle East. Iran vs Iraq (Sunni vs Shia) and the present Alawite vs (everyone else) in Syria.

    In general though, yes: Islam does NOT “play well with others”. In the long run either the West will be converted to Islam, the West will destroy Islam, or Islam will have a ‘Reformation’ event. It is designed specifically to prevent “plays well with others”. (For those who will point out peaceful Muslim neighbors, be advised that the Koran directs ‘sojourners’ in foreign – i.e. non-Muslim – lands to basically be extra nice and blend in some. Lying to Infidels is A-OK. Don’t rock the boat, just bring in more Muslims until the land is converted. So you can not judge Islam by a small minority population, only by looking at nations where it is the dominant group.)

    While, in general, my opinion of Muslims is that they are a heck of a lot better (as individuals) than many other groups of folks I’ve known, are generally reliable, moral, and honest; it is also true that the “group dynamic” when dominant is antithetical to western values. Prone to violence, intolerance, and brutality. (As this is often directed at their own people, I can’t ascribe it to them being anti-non-Muslim. It is some other power dynamic of the culture that can manifest as anti-Muslim, or as anti-non-Muslim, depending on context.)

    At any rate, I would be comfortable living in a Muslim community, as long as I was particularly careful about some specific things… and tried to “blend in” culturally…

    IMHO, the basic problem is that the Koran sets down specific rules of behaviour that are quite reasonable and proper; for an Arab in 700 AD. But completely lacking in the modern world. Like stoning folks for adultery. Shall we keep a box of large stones at the courthouse?…. Yet as it is taken to be the direct and immutable word of Allah, no variation is allowed… The West has “moved on” from 700 A.D. while Islam has not, and can not. (BTW, it was the Christian Knights that started the tradition of suicide attacks and ‘conversion by the sword’. We really were just about the same culturally, then.)

    @R. de Haan:

    On the one hand, I’m quite happy that the Evil Bastard Dictators in the various Islamic countries have been deposed. On the other hand, we really really ought not to have supported the Muslim Brotherhood factions…

    On Al-Jazeera news right now they are reporting “live rounds fired” into a crowd of protesters against America in Nigeria… So add a bit further south in Africa to the list… and remember that some radicals (back from the war in Lybia) have started taking over Mali for Sharia and have the northern 2/3 or so wrapped up. (Doing the usual of destroying shrines in the process, though in that case it is burial mounds of Muslims who had brought Islam to the country… they didn’t like folks venerating the tombs… )

    Oddly, on Al-Jazeera they have a guy making the point that “We can not apologize for basic freedom of speech”. If there is one thing that gives me hope for Islam it is Al-Jazeera. Honest and fair reporting of ‘straight news’ (even if it has a sympathy for the Arab / Muslim point of view). It gives me some hope that Islam is just having a schizo divide between the fundamentalists and modernists, and maybe, just maybe, the modernists can help cure the fundamentalists…

  29. Pascvaks says:

    @Jim2 –
    Speaking only for myself I can’t agree in the glump-em-all-together approach, too many variables (people). Take Egypt, the bad boys with ‘organization’ took over the country, it wasn’t a unanimous 99% vote that the current idiot speaks for all of us thing. I know it makes the solution harder, carpet bombing is always preferable to ‘search-and-destroy’, but if we’re going to be fair about it and fight by marquess of queensbury rules, we’re just going to have to allow for the exceptions to the rule of “Muslims are all alike”. And I have a feeling there are more exceptions to the rule than you or I realize. Kill-em-all-and-sort-em-out-on-the-ground only works if they wear uniforms.

    PS: But I don’t like the “Wait-For-Them-To-Shoot-First” rule. Very bad form! Very bad for Us.

  30. E.M.Smith says:

    Watching the US press secretary? grovel on the news about the protest events, it confirmed again the stupidity of the groveling.

    So we are confirming to every one in the world that if they would like to feel their power, all they need to do to see the POTUS and US Government grovel and plead is to have a tantrum.

    So if I’m a dis-empowered person in some sot hole in The Muslim World, I can bring the U.S. Government and POTUS to apologetics and groveling. Then we’re surprised we get more of it?

    IMHO, what ought to happen is that ANY time there is such an attack at a US embassy, a drone ought to drop a small explosive into the mob (just inside the fence…) and then the POTUS ought to go on TV and say “Don’t attack our embassy. Idiots who do so will be executed.”

    Kind of takes all the fun out of it for the attackers and plotters….

    Also on Al-Jazeera, reports of some UK and German embassies being hit. I think it was in Egypt, but might have been Tunisia. ( I was typing this at the time and didn’t split attention well enough to catch the location…) So the attacks are being generalized out to The West, not just the USA.

    The other thing this stupidity does it it gives Zionists and Israel a great lever. Any time there is a slow down in support for Israel, all they need to do is trot out some anti-Mohammed pictures and “Viola!” we will have “Muslims vs The West” on the nightly news.

    So not only is the POTUS subject to “grovel at will” from Muslims, but subject to “chain jerk at will” from Israel and Zionists.

    That’s what is called “being weak” where I come from.

    Again, drop some drone shots on ANY attacking crowd and DO NOT apologize, takes a lot of the steam out of it.

    One other thing… Lots of pictures of folks climbing over the fences around the embassies. None of these folks ever heard of electric fences? Yes, I know, they can be defeated with a heavy wire… but folks have to plan for it and it would certainly surprise some folks…

    I would just remind folks who do not agree with my “hard power” approach that we had a little problem once with pirates from Tripoli … It’s recorded in the Marine’s anthem. We have an existence proof of what works: Overwhelming power, directly applied.

    Had many decades of “cooperation” after that.

    Oh, and it would be good for the various Arms Merchants to make some tear gas bombs that can be fitted to drones too. So you could ‘gas them’ first, then if they didn’t get the message deliver the “boom stuff”.

  31. E.M.Smith says:

    DW News (German) is reporting it was the German Embassy in Sudan

  32. BobN says:

    My view of Muslims got set straight in 2000. I worked with several and one of them I considered a good friend, we did lunch together and got together in the evenings – friends!
    One Saturday I got up and went to the book store and got a book and big cup of Coffee and sat down at an outside table to enjoy the coffee and book. The table behind me was full of Arabs, my friend being one of them. For about the next hour I listened to nothing but pure hate for America. They were talking about hurting us and some day when their numbers were large enough to force their way of life on us and to just kill those that didn’t go along. They kept talking about the key to success as being more babies and push immigration – the day would come. What surprised me the most was the fact that my “friend” was the most vocal one spewing hate.

    When I left I made sure he noticed where I had been sitting. He tried to follow and said I didn’t understand what was being said. I told him that I had fully understood his words and when the day comes and he tries to act I would kill him, we never talked again. When 9/11 occurred that little group and words sure came to mind.

    After that, I read the Koran and follow closely the Muslim Community. Just look to Deer-born, the UK or the suburbs of Paris to see what its like when their numbers in an area reach a certain level. It looks like 20% is the magic number, when those numbers are reached those quiet friendly people get in your face and start demanding.

    Their religion and culture is not evolving. This will be a major issue for the rest of our lives, we need to learn to deal with it and quite giving soldiers rubber bullets and the need to ask permission to engage. Our society will not survive with the play nice attitude.

    Are all Muslims bad, probably not, but I will never trust one again.

  33. Pascvaks says:

    Life is very complicated. You can only do so much. When we get to the saturation point we tend to shut down or put on the auto-pilot. The problem with Jihadist-Muslims is they think we’re weak and that they can push, and push, and push. Very BIG mistake. If we go ape-$&!# we’re going to decimate them, indecriminately. We’ve done it before and we’ll do it again. Something about Americans, Europeans, Russians, Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, etc., etc., push too far and there’s no tomorrow. All’a beware!

  34. Jerry says:

    For any folks out there who want to be Nice. Fine, you deal with this one:
    http://michellemalkin.com/2012/09/12/egyptian-faux-rage-deadly-american-dhimmitude-and-the-return-of-islamic-rage-boy/

    I will continue to reload. I am OK with “Kill the Bastards”; “Kill the Bastards”; and keep on “Killing the Bastards”. Worked for Halsey and worked for Patton and they were fighting MEN.

  35. If that 14 minute nonsense is the “Trailer” you can be sure that I will not be wasting my time watching the two hour “Movie” if it exists.

    The real problem here is the behavior of the SOS and POTUS who should be slamming the idea that a silly movie somehow justifies violence against America. Remember Neville Chamberlain with “Peace in our time”? That bit of appeasement worked really well didn’t it?

    Obama and Hillary should be doing a little historical research about now. They should be looking at the case of the Barbary Pirates who operated out of Tripoli, Tunis and Algiers for centuries until the French got really ticked off in 1830.

    Then they might want to study some of the things that General Jack Pershing did a century ago when dealing with Muslim extremists in the Moro province of the Phillipines.

  36. Ooops! I forgot to mention why the US Marines mention the “The shores of Tripoli” in their Hymn.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Barbary_War

    Now there is appeasement that works!

  37. I particularly liked this Wikipedia quote about Thomas Jefferson’s efforts to “negotiate” with the Barbary Pirates:
    “In March 1785, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams went to London to negotiate with Tripoli’s envoy, Ambassador Sidi Haji Abdrahaman (or Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja). Upon inquiring “concerning the ground of the pretensions to make war upon nations who had done them no injury”, the ambassador replied:
    “It was written in their Koran, that all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet were sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave; and that every mussulman who was slain in this warfare was sure to go to paradise. He said, also, that the man who was the first to board a vessel had one slave over and above his share, and that when they sprang to the deck of an enemy’s ship, every sailor held a dagger in each hand and a third in his mouth; which usually struck such terror into the foe that they cried out for quarter at once. [19]”

    Does any of that sound slightly familiar? “Deja vu” all over again (to quote Yogi Berra)?

    Although Jefferson appeased the pirates to the tune of $1 million per year, he did it to buy time to expand the US Navy, setting the stage for the second Barbary war in 1815:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Barbary_War

    After that, US ships were no longer targeted even though the Barbary Pirates continued to operate until 1830 when the French “Colonized” Algeria.

    In Thomas Jefferson’s time when the USA was weak our leaders understood that appeasement was intolerable. They had the courage to end “Danegeld”. Do our modern leaders understand what is at stake?

  38. E.M.Smith says:

    @BobN:

    Reading the Koran is something I strongly recommend to folks. I see you have read yours…

    @Pascvaks:

    Especially Russians and Chinese. They give little warning of the edge… Then again, neither do my Celtic relatives… or the British ones for that matter, though with them it’s hard to tell even after they have started sliding the knife in the ribs as they have that wonderful polite way of saying “Dear chap, so sorry to say, but I really must let you know you are dead…” smiling the whole time… I’ve got some of that via my Mum. Folks have had no clue even when I was thinking it was time to take them down… Just wouldn’t be polite to be loud and rude about it… It unfortunately is often mistaken for weakness and / or invitation to more abuse; so I’ve learned to put on an American Act and be all Texas Blustery on demand “jus ta communicate wid ’em more die-rectly.” Part of “be the mirror”.

    If there was one thing I could get folks, globally, to learn, it would be the lesson of “be the mirror”.

    Each culture has norms for how an outburst is interpreted. The Muslim Rage to them looks more like “I am appropriately expressing my desires”. The British can see a “Please stop, hitting isn’t nice.” as nearly shouting “I’m going to bash your face in” (in American terms)… So one thing I learned is to “level” off the other person’s culture. For “Angry Muslims”, that means “in your face violence for violence”. Otherwise you are not heard, you are agreeing to be beaten as your meekness admits guilt. For “polite society” even saying “Hey, Stop It.” is too “rough”. So you level off the audience.

    @Jerry:

    I just love Michelle Malkin. If only she and I were single, I was 20 years younger, had more money, and was her type and… but I digress… I really love her near Celtic like Spunk.

    That’s what is under the Asian Reserve for more Asians than folks think. I just wish it was let show a bit more… then again, strong feeling need a strong container…

    Especially liked the Hitchins quote. Kind of captures it all for me. That and the “Rage Boy” line ;-)

    If Muslims are polite and accepting with me, I am accepting with them. For those who are violent, and prone to raising guns: “Be the mirror” and “communicate effectively”.

    It really is a fundamental philosophical tool, to “be the mirror”…

    “Symmetry is your friend. -E.M.Smith”

    @GallopingCamel:

    Yes, they knew how to ‘be the mirror’ rather well ;-)

  39. Chiefio,
    I read the Quran from cover to cover in 1961. Like our esteemed president Obama I lived in Pakistan and other Islamic countries.

    To my shame I still have not read the entire king James Bible although much of it is locked in my memory.

  40. E.M.Smith says:

    @GallopingCamel:

    You are a better man than I am… I’ve not gotten through every page of either of them… just a lot of each.

    On the Koran, I’ve dug my copy out again. Tonight I polished off 56 pages out of 356 in Volume 2 of 2. (Another 350 pages are in Volume 1) I’m trying a different strategy this time. I’m reading it from back to front.

    For those who don’t know, that’s not as crazy as it sounds. When the Koran was assembled, it was done ‘after the fact’. The verses were collected from all over. Some on palm leaves. Some from memory ( 2 folks had to attest). There was no order. It could not be put in chronological, as nobody was sure what that was. There wasn’t much way to put it in ‘reasonable’ order, either, as all the ‘bits’ were scattered and many were repetitive. The solution? It is in “size order”. Largest chunks of verses first, then down to shortest last.

    By reading the verses (suras) back to front, I’m starting with the smallest ones and working my way up to the most complete. It really doesn’t make much difference where you start, and in fact there are many folks who have suggested orders to ‘get more out of it’…

    FWIW, the last 56 pages are mostly extolling how Believers will be given gardens with rivers underneath and a great time in heaven while non-belivers will be sent off to the trash heap of hell (Gehenna) and suffer a variety of unpleasant things. Not many of the more inflammatory things in the smaller verses.

    I’d guess I’ve read about 2/3 of the Bible and about 1/2 of total Koran verses.

    For those wondering, I’m reading the A.J.Arberry interpretation. 1955 copyright. I use Koran instead of Quran or Qur’an as that’s what’s on the cover of the one I’m referencing…

    As I get to the “more interesting parts”, I’ll likely put up selected quotes as postings. Just so everyone else doesn’t need to read the whole mind numbing repetitive thing to find out some of the more interesting bits…

    Such as Sura IX (volume 1) “Repentance” about verse 5:
    “Then, when the sacred months are drawn away,
    slay the idolators wherever you find them,
    and take them, and confine them, and lie in wait
    for them at every place of ambush. But if they
    repent, and perform the prayer, and pay the alms,
    then let them go on their way;
    God is all forgiving, all compassionate.”

    So, got that? You are to be ambushed, hunted down, and killed; unless you convert to Islam, perform the prayer, and pay them off. That is “compassion”…

    On the KJV, my downfall was the Begats… just mind numbing. Found the Apocrypha much more interesting. The Old Testament up to the Begats was interesting, and the New Testament had some interesting bits. The various Psalms can be quite poetic…

    Then I got distracted by some things like the Gnostic Bible and the Nag Hamadi library… and got sucked into a quest for figuring out how good the translation was. ( It is quite good. Mostly being at variance from the original Hebrew or Greek in things like translating the Dual Number to “they” or putting the Neutral Gender into “he” or “she”. Oh, and YHWH is variously transformed into LORD or GOD (or whatever He, Him, His…) as some folks think it a sin to use the four letter name… All noted in the footnotes of the translations, BTW.

    FWIW, I find the Bible much more readable than the Koran. I like the New Revised Standard most, then KJV, then all the others. The Book Of Mormon is also pretty good reading. Better stories in it ;-) some seem rather, um, ‘imaginative’… There’s whole chunks on other peoples and other histories.

    The Koran is very redundant ( one estimate I saw said about 50% is duplicative) and sorely lacking in proper nouns. Lots of folks just get a pronoun and you get to guess who is being talked about. Others get ‘inside names’. So things like “owned by your right hand” instead of “your slaves”. Makes it a bit rocky at times..

    So again, you get special recognition for having the stubbornness to have read the whole thing. I’m on my 3rd or fourth try now… But at least each time I’m reading a different part ;-)

  41. Chiefio,
    I am with you on the “begats”. While the KJV is otherwise very readable that is probably a result of talented scholars. I can’t find my copy of the Quran from 50 years ago but I suspect the scholarship that went into the translation was not in the same class.

    IMHO the stories from the “Old Testament” were told better in the KJV than in the Quran (Noah, Moses etc.)

  42. For me the Quran was much easier to read than Darwin’s “Origin of Species”. After four attempts I have been unable to get into the last 100 pages.

  43. Non Muslim says:

    A couple comments.

    I think I may have mentioned this before, so please forgive me for being a bit of a broken record. As you mentioned, the Koran is organized in order of longest to shortest suras, which means that the chronological order is difficult, if not impossible for anyone but Muslim scholars to figure out. That is important because of the Muslim doctrine of abrogation, which says that later Koranic pronouncements take precedence over earlier pronouncements. And that is important because the more benign pronouncements (like tolerance for different religious views) all come from the earlier (chronologically) ones when Muhammed and his followers were weak both politically and militarily. The more bellicose pronouncements (like convert infidels or kill them) all come from the later (chronologically) ones when Muhammed and his followers were strong politically and militarily. So, when the Koran counsels Muslims to live in peace and harmony with their neighbors, it is because when that counsel was given, they were weak compared to their neighbors. But they only have to live in peace and harmony until they are strong enough to overcome their neighbors. Also, the concepts of kitman and taqiyya are important (at least one of these was in operation in BobN’s story above in which his peace-loving-Muslim good friend’s true feelings were unmasked when he thought no non-Muslims could hear what he was saying). The “Islam 101” essay at http://www.jihadwatch.org/islam-101.html explains all of this in great detail. I strongly recommend that essay to everyone, whether they have read the Koran and think they understand it, or have not read it. Basically, if you have or have not read the Koran — or parts of it — without understanding abrogation, kitman and taqiyya, you can’t possibly understand the Koran, or Muslims.

    Second, regarding your “be the mirror” attitude, I think that you would be interested in Bill Whittle’s take on this. I have followed Whittle for about 7-8 years, first on his “Eject! Eject! Eject!” blog (http://www.ejectejecteject.com/), and more recently via his video essays on PJTV, DeclarationEntertainment.com, and his “The Stratosphere Lounge” video chats (for lack of a better description of them). Whittle is, IMO, one of the best thinkers/communicators of conservative thought that we have today. The Stratosphere Lounge is a (usually) weekly production in which Bill takes and hour or two and either answers questions from his Facebook friends, or talks about something that interests him. In TSL episode 14 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ThJD_lcZXM) which he published just a few days ago, he discusses a question about whether the U.S. should become isolationist again. That discussion starts at the 32:45 mark, but if you want to save some time, you can skip ahead to the 43:30 mark and start there. Between about the 44:00 mark to the 65:00 mark, Whittle discusses how, if he were President, he would implement your “be the mirror” strategy with respect to our enemies (using Iran as an example).

  44. Looks like I’ll need to get the “mirror” technique internalised and functioning. Though I’m aware of cultural difference being a problem between Europeans, I haven’t dealt with Arab culture so haven’t so far had a basis to work from.

    It also looks like I may need to get a Koran and read it sometime. It’s hard enough getting through the Bible…. I’ve also got some Mooney books that my brother left me last year that I haven’t steeled myself to read yet. So many religions, so little time.

  45. j ferguson says:

    E.M. and All,
    Instigated by what I took to be mis-characterizations of the Koran I thought I’d understood when I read it in 2001, I took it up again to see if I’d missed the harsh stuff. The version I read earlier is in storage, but there is one for the Kindle, to wit:

    THE HOLY QURAN (KORAN)
    English Translation of the Meanings by Abdullah Yusuf Ali
    From a version revised by the Presidency of
    Islamic Researches, IFTA, Call and
    Guidance. Published and Printed by the King
    Fahd Holy Quran Printing Complex in 1987.

    My thought was that this translation predated the recent turmoil and might be relatively benign – no recently incited agenda. The first or second Sura in Ali’s translation is the “Cow.” I would find it difficult not to find this one of the most remarkable religious writings I’ve ever encountered (very small exposure) given its contemplation that devout people of the book and followers of Christ can also make it to heaven.

    At the same time, I realized that the sort of calumny recommended for idolators is indeed in there. My suspicion is that I didn’t take it seriously not thinking myself an idolator. On the other hand, I would not be doing the designating.

  46. Pascvaks says:

    As the Middle East explodes, as the US and Western economies near the ground at 214mph, reality begins to set in once again, and the daydreams about a new millenium’s ‘Pax Whatevera’ fade into distant, disapating, evaporating memory. Welcome to the 21st Century. There’s a hell of a lot to do and people haven’t changed one bit; it’s a very dangerous planet. Nothing’s changed.

  47. E.M.Smith says:

    @GallopingCamel:

    I find the Koran fairly easy to read, but just so repetitive and in many parts uninteresting that I find something else to do…

    Last night I got to page 185 of Volume 2; so some 171 pages. HOWEVER:

    That whole chunk mostly reminds me of the old Fire & Brimstone preachers. Same thing, over and over. Heck, most Suras start with the same phrase “God the merciful, God the…” then launch into a rant that amounts to ~”Be a Believer and be rewarded in heaven and with lots of goodies on earth; or be a non-believer and roast in hell and have ‘chastisement’ beyond limit on earth.” After the first dozen times, the mind wanders…

    Yes, some subtle variations from verse to verse, but the content is far more the same than different. As though the same “pitch” was being given at many places on the road, and each time was a bit different (and recorded with some differences of memory); then collected into one set.

    Many of the first Suras (the longer ones) have more direction of what to do. So looks like a lot of the smaller ones are very similar ‘snippets’; probably as folks only remembered or wrote down similar things for those folks that only caught or kept a small chunk.

    There was one Sura that said a little bit about dumping your wives or pregnant servants and how / when to do it; but as I think there’s a more detailed version in the front, I’ve not bothered to mark that one for posting. Also one on taking ‘stuff’ from Infidels, but again a Sura Lite compared to much more detailed and aggressive variations in longer earlier Suras.

    So, easy read of 170 ish pages, but mostly the same thing in a dozen variations. Be a Muslim or roast in hell, oh, and Muslims get perks on earth too…

    IMHO, Mohammed really really needed a good copy editor…

    @Simon:

    One of the more enlightening things to me was working closely with a very nice Muslim man. He was clearly a very moral and very likeable guy, a regular family man type. Technically knew his stuff well (mostly routers). But the cultural divide was clear on one simple point. He would get “all wound up” from a western point of view. If there was even a slight emotional loading (political or even just technical) his rate of speaking and emotional presentation would start to ramp up.

    Many times his boss and I (who both liked him rather a lot) would find ourselves saying things like “Calm down, calm down. Take it easy.” or “Now, take a breath, and tell me calmly…”

    After working with him for a couple of years I had enough ‘input’ to realize that from his point of view I was asking him to talk in a monotone with zero grade emotion. We have two very divergent scales for ’emotional content’ in speech. His was an exponential with 10 times higher top end. Mine was linear of very slow slope.

    I’ve seen the same “emotional ramp” in other Muslims, so it isn’t just him. I’ve not seen many Arab Christians, so don’t know if it’s an “Arabic Culture” thing, or a Muslim thing, but since all Muslims are to learn Arabic to read the Koran, the two are kind of joined at the hip…

    In this case what we were doing was trying to get HIM to “be the mirror” as he was embedded in our culture. (Having him get ‘excitable’ about the config of a Cisco router being off on some lines or other was kind of fun to watch ‘just between us’, but not so effective on the client site… Still, he ‘knew his stuff’ and most folks were able to accept some extra emote from him.) On other occasions, just him and me talking non-work things, I’d play a bit with more emotional ramp on my side. His response was one of minor relief, that he could ‘be more normal’ and I was not being so flat and stiff…

    Hope that helps…

    FWIW, I suspect that in groups, that tendency to “high ramp” is part of why there is the periodic wind up to Rage Rants and Rage Mobs as they have mutual feedback. No British Reserve training there…

    @J. Ferguson:

    IMHO the Koran is rather Skitzo in places. Always talking about being merciful and generous, then launching into an “off with their heads” and “pillage and take”, and then back to “the all merciful and all knowing”…

    So depending on which part you focus on in the reading, you get a different total ‘feel’… and all memory being selective, that changes the perception.

    Also, as Arabic does not do vowel marking, there are often multiple meanings for any set of consonants. This leads to two very important points:

    One the one hand, Muslims will assert that “The Koran can NOT be translated.” While this is clearly not true, as a great many things are translated into and out of Arabic all the time; it is also true that “All translation transforms”. Especially so when the translator must take a ‘multipath via variable vowels’ and turn it into a ‘single path in the target language’. HOWEVER, many scholars have studied the Koran and decided what vowels to use (and, IIRC, some Korans are now vowel marked). So take the word “Jihad”. It can mean “Holy War” or it can mean “Struggle with yourself”. This ambiguity is exploited by Muslim Apologists who emphasize the “Struggle” and gloss over the “Kill them all Holy War” meaning…

    So any given verse with Jihad in it: Which marking do you use? Holy War of destruction and retribution, or internal Struggle? My solution was to pick a version translated some time ago (before the USA got on the Muslim Shit List) and done by a devout Muslim. Figure that’s as good as it’s likely to get. But it is true that the “multipath” and “deeper meanings” part of the Koran is lost in any translation as we do not have a half dozen potential meanings for any one word going off in our head as we read it. ( That effect, BTW, is part of why one Islamic Cleric can say “Oh, that verse says ‘nice thing'” while the next one can say (usually in private and in Arabic to Believers) “Oh, that verse really says ‘mean thing'”.) So we get “That verse means “Struggle with yourself” while in the Jihadi camp the Imam is saing “That verse means have a Holy War with the Infidel and kill them all”…

    FWIW, I got a small book on “learning Arabic” and learned enough to understand how the language works (but not enough to say much in it). Just wanted to check that the assertion was true. It was stressed early in the lessons that vowel selection could change meanings and even that you had to be careful as some dialects used different vowels… so “magazine” vs “book” might be different vowels in different dialects. That, IMHO, is a significant weakness in Semitic / Hamitic language.

    I also read a book on reading hieroglyphics and got to where I could read a few simple ones. Ancient Egyptian has the same problem. But there, as they were not written and we don’t know how the language sounded, we have to just make up some vowels and press on… makes reading some of it a bit hard. The words that are ‘one picture per meaning’ are not too hard. We know what it means, not what it sounds like. But the ones that are “one symbol stands for a sound” are tougher as we might have it wrong if we guess the wrong vowels…

    @Pascvaks:

    What bothers me about that view is not that it is right. It is that I’m not sure which bothers me the most. That we might continue sleep-walking through this minefield, or that it might blow up, or that it might NOT blow up and just fester to worse…

  48. EM – yes, that helps a lot. The Muslims I knew were very English. I have seen English people ramp up over football, which is a reversal of normal codes when it happens. The mob rage is somewhat like heterodyning, and what you’re saying, I think, is that the trip-level is set much lower and doesn’t need more than one person.

    One thing I did notice was a total lack of humour on religious matters. Bishop and actress jokes or their homologues would never fly. I once referred to it as a prophet-oriented society, which was very badly-received.

  49. E.M.Smith says:

    On various news reports last night doing “man in the street” interviews with rioting Muslims in several different countries they often had the same line in the same words that The Prophet was a red line for them.

    I suspect that “talking points” were circulated as this entire “Rage Boy Moment” was planned and orchestrated.

    Still, it is quite true that ANY lack of deification of The Prophet is met with a blow up rage.

    “They” seem to completely miss that this is a great weakness.

    1) It is functionally turning Mohamed into an Icon. They don’t notice this …

    2) ANYONE, even Israel and Zionists, are now empowered to Yank Their Chain and set them off an an alienating Rage Rant just by trotting out a simple Mohammed Slam.

    ONE minor example:

    Some years ago there was a “push” to have a law banning “flag burning”. In response, I and a friend invented the “Strike Anywhere Flag”. Kitchen sized matches with tiny flags glued to them.

    Useful for lighting your cigar or ‘doobie’ while making a statement. Thought about doing it as a product, but the law didn’t make it…

    So, say I wanted to cause The Muslim World to erupt… what to do , what to do… I’ve got it,

    How about the “Strike Anywhere Muslim Match Set”! Have “tiny Koran Pictures” and “images of Mohammed” and even just the Arabic word Allah on little bits of paper stuck on stick matches…

    Now just send boxes of them for free to all sorts of folks around the planet. Newspapers, TV, some politicians, a few radical White Supremacists , and, oh yes, selected Muslim Clerics.

    So with about $100 and a bit of time with the laser printer and a bottle of Elmers, I can Jerk The Chain Of Islam world wide and cause untold death and destruction inside their countries while forcing the USA ever closer to Israel.

    Hmmmm… Decisions decisions….

    ( I actually thought of the Muslim Match Set back in the ’80s when we came up with the Strike Anywhere Flag. We generalized the idea to all sorts of hyperemotional issues… but decided “it was a bad idea” to go to production).

    So while I’m not going to “do it” or “make the matches”, the simple fact is that the hyperemotive response means that ANYONE could do it, or a hundred similar things. Like Mohammed TP or even a Koran in a pig skin binding. That is the problem with wearing your emotional insanity on your sleeve; anyone can jerk your chain, and do it very very hard.

    So, take a Billion folks in “the west”, it takes a “one in a Billion” somewhat undisciplined person to strike that match… That’s essentially a guaranteed ‘hit rate’.

    So the only question really is: Is Islam really that stupid to not see this, or is it ‘by design’?…

  50. EM – that is a frightening thought, even though it made me laugh for a while. Personally I get the feeling that this film was just such a “strike anywhere” ploy.

    It’s possible that this hyper-sensitivity was a positive survival characteristic in the desert 700 years ago. Just doesn’t work as well with far more people and far quicker communications.

    I suppose also it gives the religious leaders a lot of power when they can tell people to go die for them.

    Come to think of it, you could make a little cardboard book of matches and burn things bit by bit. No, I’m not going to do it. Never!

  51. adolfogiurfa says:

    Wait to see a single and big new “Caliphate” as Glenn Beck forecasted…supposedly backed by the Arab Spring backers, however only time will tell against whom they will be. Hope it was not a wrong calculation.

  52. R. de Haan says:

    The movie didn’t do it: http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/video-didn-t-do-it_652387.html

    and

    Blame the Movie instead of Obama’s failed Middle East policies: ! Islamic Movie maker donated million dollar to Obama campeign
    http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Hollywood/2012/09/15/Obama-Contribution-Anti-Islam-Filmmaker

  53. E.M.Smith says:

    @R.de Haan:

    In that ‘Breitbart’ link, I love this line:

    “And the lapdog media just can’t stop humping a leg of lies.”

    Just so visceral… and so spot on…

    @Adolfo:

    Much as the Germans keep lusting for a return of the German Holy Roman Empire, the Muslims keep lusting for a return of the Ottoman Empire (or earlier incarnations of Islamic Empire).

    The general history pattern has been that such lusts are eventually satisfied, and collapse into a world war… (or major regional war prior to our bringing the rest of the world into this behaviour).

    “Against whom” is pretty simple. Anyone who is not Muslim. That’s what their book tells them to do.

    So first and nearest target is the EU, and southern Russia. Most emotional target will be Israel. As we’re backers of Israel and as we’re the folks who fight the EU’s battles (they being unwilling to stir a pot so close to home, and us so willing to borrow Chinese money to blow it up in their name…) we get a chunk of the “action” too.

    IMHO the “order of battle” will be to harass the US while planning a major war against Israel (with either Iranian or Paki nukes) and with Russia left on the sidelines for now (contributing to the effort sub rosa) while the EU is infiltrated and subverted as that’s easiest and most comfortable. Who needs to fight them if you can just move in and make babies? I give it about 50 years max to European implosion and about 1 year minimum to Israeli war. US effort is already underway.

    Really not all that hard to see coming…

    @Simon:

    Yeah, it’s one of those “I’d laugh more if I wasn’t so busy crying” or “I’d cry more if I wasn’t so busy laughing” moments… Like watching “stupid people hurting themselves” videos. Emotionally painful and wincing sympathy even while you laugh… I tend to think of it as “sweet and sour pork” moments…

    @Non Muslim:
    https://chiefio.wordpress.com/2012/09/13/an-idiocy-of-innocence-of-muslims/#comment-40164

    Glad you liked it. Yes, good points about the “later” overriding the “earlier” and that the later bits are the more strident “kill the infidel” bits.

  54. E.M.Smith says:

    Looks like someone in Germany printed a bit of Koran stuff on TP… and got hauled off to jail… Yet Christ can go in a jar of piss and that’s OK….

    http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2008/01/quran-on-toilet.html

  55. R. de Haan says:

    Post-Arab Spring “moderate” Muslim regimes cornered by radicals
    DEBKAfile Exclusive Analysis September 15, 2012, 12:45 PM (GMT+02:00) Tags: Islamists Barack Obama US Middle East enbassy attacks Egypt

    Hopes that deaths of four US diplomats won’t be the last
    The United States is positioning military forces so that it can respond to unrest in as many as 17 or 18 places in the Islamic world, Defense Secretary Leon Panetta announced late Friday. “We have to be prepared in the event that these demonstrations get out of control,” he said.
    Those words dashed hopes in Washington that the anti-US Islamist rampage by now sweeping 21 countries over a video deriding Islam had passed their peak. In fact, by their sixth day Saturday, Sept. 15,the street protests against American embassies and other US symbols of influence were growing more violent and more organized, threatening not only American lives but tearing up President Barack Obama’s entire outreach policy toward Arabs and Muslims. I
    In at least four Arab countries, anti-US protesters were no longer just throwing stones but using firearms. The most serious occurred in Egyptian Sinai, where scores of armed Salafist Bedouin linked to al Qaeda firing missiles, grenades, mortars and automatic weapons were able to break down two guard posts at the US-led Multinational Force near El Arish base in search of American victims. A battalion of Colombian troops fought the invaders off in fierce battle for hours, preventing them from reaching the hundreds of US officers, soldiers and air crews pinned down in fortified quarters.
    In Cairo, Islamist demonstrators began firing rubber bullets at Egyptian security forces which have still not succeeded in breaking up the disturbances.
    In Tripoli, Lebanon, protesters and the Lebanese army exchanged heavy gun fire. In Khartoum, Islamists shot their way into the US embassy and the American school before setting them ablaze.
    In Tunis, the American ambassador almost suffered the same fate as his colleague, Chris Stevens and three consulate staffers who were murdered in Benghazi, Libya, last Tuesday, Sept. 11. The ambassador and several US diplomats were rescued from the burning embassy building by a special Tunisian counter-terror unit and taken to safety.
    Friday, saw the first five fatalities as well the first violent Muslim demonstration in the Australian town of Sydney.
    DEBKAfile’s counter-terror and intelligence sources draw seven conclusions from nearly a week of surging anti-American violence across the Middle East, South Asia and beyond:
    1. The anti-Islamic video film was not the cause of the upheaval only a pretext.
    2. The outbreaks were orchestrated by a number of radical Islamic organizations ranging from the ultraconservative Salafis to Al Qaeda terrorists. They took advantage of swelling anti-US sentiment in many Arab and Muslim countries to weaken local governments which maintain ties with the United States, including the Muslim Brotherhood.
    3. It is not yet known how the mechanism coordinating operations among those Islamist extremist groups works, but it has already shown to be faster and more efficient than the American intelligence and counter-terror bodies keeping track of them. Day by day, Washington is caught unawares by fresh outbursts.
    4. After firing up Arab and some Muslim streets, this radical coalition believes its component organizations are gathering enough leverage to start pushing out the “moderate” Muslim Brotherhood branches brought to power by the US-backed Arab Spring in order to take their place. The anti-US ferment will therefore not abate, as Washington hopes, until they achieve their goal.
    5. The US has sent two platoons of 50 men each of specially trained Marines to protect its embassies in Libya and Yemen and may send a third to Sudan. Otherwise, the Obama administration dare not send in American troops to prop up the new Arab regimes; any visible US military intervention in those countries would only enhance the radicals’ popularity and weaken the regimes they are fighting to remove.
    6. The new Muslim Brotherhood rulers of Egypt, Tunisia and Libya face a tough strategic dilemma; Lean more heavily on American support to save their regimes, or bow to the Islamist extremists, turn their backs on America and give them a place in government.
    7. Power-sharing with radicals has already begun in some Arab countries, spelling the reversal of Obama’s policies and the goals of the “Arab Spring”
    Those policies aimed naively at the removal in the name of democracy of autocratic, secular Arab rulers to make way for “moderate” Muslim Brotherhood regimes elected by the people and ready to work with the United States. This ideal was violently reduced to ashes in the second week of September 2012.
    It is hard not to recall another debacle of 33 years ago, when President Jimmy Carter helped overthrow the Shah of Persia only to bring implacable ayatollah rule to Tehran.

  56. R. de Haan says:

    Meanwhile In Beijing: “For The Respect Of The Motherland, We Must Go To War With Japan”http://www.zerohedge.com/news/meanwhile-beijing-respect-motherland-we-must-go-war-japan

    and

    Mission Accomplished: http://stevengoddard.wordpress.com/2012/09/15/mission-accomplished-5/

  57. R. de Haan says:

    Now we have demonstrations in Europe as well: Sharia4Belgium is calling for protests in Antwerp and Amsterdam: http://www.key103.co.uk/news/uk-and-world/20120916-us-anti-islam-film-protests-spread-to-europe/ut also to London and Sydney: http://uk.news.yahoo.com/us-anti-islam-film-protests-spread-europe-031212463.html
    In Nigeria troops fired shots to disperse film protesters: http://www.rnw.nl/africa/bulletin/nigeria-troops-fire-shots-disperse-film-protest
    We also have protests in Indonesia, the Maladives etc. In short, this is going global.

    Busted!… State Department Scrubs Damning Memo From Website Following Deadly 9-11 Consulate Attacks
    http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2012/09/whoa-state-department-scrubs-damning-memo-from-website-following-deadly-9-11-consulate-attacks/

    Libyan president: ‘No doubt’ consulate attack was ‘preplanned’ starting months ago…
    http://www.politico.com/blogs/politico-live/2012/09/libyan-president-no-doubt-consulate-attack-preplanned-135664.html

    Libyan official warned US three days before the attack
    http://edition.cnn.com/2012/09/15/world/meast/libya-diplomats-warning/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

    I’m happy Obama wasn’t President during the Cold War

    Libyan President: Foreigners carried out murder
    http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2012/09/15/Libyan-President-Foreigners-Carried-Out-Murder

    Obama skipped intell meetings now under scrutiny: http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/09/15/Obama-s-Skipped-Intel-Meetings-Now-Under-Scrutiny

    In the mean time, armada massing in the Strait of Hormuz as Israel prepares an Iran strike (again)(http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/9545597/Armada-of-British-naval-power-massing-in-the-Gulf-as-Israel-prepares-an-Iran-strike.html

    Failed policy of a failed President: http://washingtonexaminer.com/obama-stumbles-in-response-to-embassy-attacks/article/2508062#.UFXo74uhJLI

  58. R. de Haan says:

    Escalaion: Al Qaeda-led Salafis hit three Egyptian Sinai bases, down Egyptian chopper
    DEBKAfile Special Report September 16, 2012, 6:04 PM (GMT+02:00) Tags: Al Qaeda Salafis Sinai Bedouin Egypt MFO US

    Al Qaeda-led Bedouin fighters in Sinai
    Salafi Bedouin and al Qaeda bands Sunday, Sept 16, expanded their Sinai offensive to three Egyptian bases along a 70-kilometer front three days after they raided the US-led Multinational Force base south of El Arish in northern Sinai and hoisted the black Islamist flag. DEBKAfile’s military sources report that at dawn, a small group managed to creep up to the northern Sinai Egyptian command center in al Arish and plant a large bomb against its walls. Because of the total Egyptian blackout on the episode, there is no information on casualties or damage.
    The explosion was followed by a horde of heavily armed gunmen firing rocket grenades and heavy machine guns swooping on the center and seizing the rooftops of surrounding buildings to pin down the Egyptian commanders inside the compound. By the end of the day, the Salafi-al Qaeda gangs were in control of El Arish, the key town of northern Sinai.
    At a distance of 40 kilometers, a fierce battle erupted at another site, Sheikh Zuwaid, 3 kilometers from the MFO’s northern base which was attacked Friday. The raiders captured the local school and took dozens of children hostage. Using them as human shields, the terrorists advanced on the local police station shooting anti-tank rockets, rocket grenades, automatic weapons and fire bombs.
    To repel this attack, the Egyptian army deployed combat helicopters which struck the invaders with missiles and heavy machine guns. One chopper was reported shot down. Due to the Egyptian news blackout, there is no word on the fate of the children, the helicopter crew or whether it was downed by an anti-air rocket or machine gun fire,
    The Salafi-al Qaeda terrorists next turned to the Egyptian special forces base at Rafah abutting the Gaza Strip and just across the Israeli border. This is the same base which Salafi Bedouin and al Qaeda gunmen attacked on Aug. 5 killing 16 Egyptian troops and crashing through the frontier barrier into Israel.
    DEBKAfile’s military sources report that the broad al Qaeda-led offensive Sunday marks a major and dangerous escalation in the Islamist terrorist coalition’s war plans for Sinai. It carried four messages:
    1. It is a military force to be reckoned: The jihadi terrorists first displayed their military prowess on Aug. 5, when they took on two armies at once. Sunday, they attacked three military targets along a 70-kilometer front, a feat which even the Afghan Taliban has not mastered.
    2. This feat puts the Sinai Army of Islam at the forefront of the violent Islamist protest against the United States sweeping across the Middle East and Asia over a film mocking the Prophet Muhammad. Because it is beyond the horizon of international attention and the Western media, Washington, Cairo and Jerusalem have been able to keep its true impact under wraps.
    3. More than 1,000 MFO peacemakers including hundreds of American officers have been under Salafi-Al Qaeda-Bedouin siege for three days since their Al Ghora base was raided Friday. They have a fleet of helicopters and small reconnaissance aircraft with American crews, but they don’t dare take off because it is feared that al Qaeda gunmen will shoot them down with FIM-92 Stinger anti-air missiles smuggled into Sinai from Libya.
    4. The IDF high command is tensed now for the jihadis to again turn their guns and rockets on Israel.

    Off topic: Japanese Ambassador to China dies…
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/japans-ambassador-china-d

    Rice: Libya attack not premeditated (an attempt to take the heat from Obama)
    http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/09/ambassador-susan-rice-libya-attack-not-premeditated/

    Israel Foreign Ministry: US ignored arab radicalization (and that comes from the left wing Haaretz)
    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israeli-foreign-ministry-u-s-ignored-arab-radicalization.premium-1.465210

    And Iran joins in as well: http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/iran-threatens-israel-with-hezbollah-retaliation-if-islamic-republic-is-attacked.premium-1.465207

  59. adolfogiurfa says:

    @R.de Haan: Chess games are usually not so easy and linearity which prevails in our current way of thinking make us see the show but not what it is behind the curtains.

  60. Jeff Alberts says:

    If you’ve not read the Koran, I suggest that you do ( as mind numbing as some of it can be).

    I find all of these ancient “holy books” simply unreadable. While they may have their VERY few lucid moments (e.g. “Do unto others…”), they are completely nullified by the stupidity, hypocrisy, and violence endemic in them.

  61. E.M.Smith says:

    @R. de Haan:

    It’ll take me ’till dinner to get through that set of links… BTW, I have the ‘limit’ set up at 7 links as acceptable, 8 goes to the SPAM queue, so you can up up to 7 in one comment.

    @Jeff Alberts:

    Sometimes it is very good poetry (Song of Songs…) sometimes it is reasonably readable history (Maccabbes) and sometimes it is complete trash. But the trash can still give insight into the particular way people of that era thought, or sometimes just the peculiar nature of human mental failings…

    Just don’t try to read it all with the same expectation…

    @Adolfo:

    Especially with the Chinese. Sometimes I think even THEY get lost in the games they play…

  62. BobN says:

    With all the coordinated attacks its real obvious that this was not about some movie.
    Yet our government continues to issue absolutely stupid statements. Either the government is no smarter than a box of rocks or they are lying to the people.
    The activity in the Sinai is very troubling. It looks like Israel knew what coming over a week ago when they moved their tank columns into the Sinai.
    The present US government doesn’t comprehend whats going on.

  63. E.M.Smith says:

    @BobN:

    With the POTUS skipping security briefings, he doesn’t care. He cares about being re-elected and he cares about making a Socialist America. The rest he clearly just finds a bother.

    Per the coordination: Yup. It’s clear from the timing and organization that this is NOT spontaneous at all. Either the video was a deliberate plant to be used later, or more likely, they found it some weeks back and “banked it” as a convenient “casus belli” for the planned event.

    We’re back in a “Hot War” with Islamic radicals and the POTUS either doesn’t know, or doesn’t care; and is distracted and ineffective whatever the cause. Heck, for all I know, he could easily have been informed and happy about the idea. Let them use the air force, then help them distance themselves from America. If you want a good “Mutt and Jeff”, you can’t be seen as being on the same side…

    If the goal is to recreate the Caliphate and if the POTUS is bought into that, you get the loan of air power, then the “other” for them to rally against. All you need next is a political unification movement and the POTUS to “recognize its authority” as an “equal”… Yeah, an “outside” theory, but not much else makes sense.

    POTUS isn’t as stupid as required by the “stupid” answer. Too much of this is just too coordinated and offset against “too stupid to be natural”…

  64. j ferguson says:

    My understanding is that W requested the oral briefings – possibly because he wanted to be able to appraise the comfort of the briefer with the contents. Before W, the security appraisals were conveyed on paper and an oral presentation was only provided if requested. Obama went back to the original plan – astonishingly the same as the one used by George Bush I, who likely knew more about security than anyone else who has held the office in modern times – or possibly ever.

    It never hurts to imagine the possibility that there is an intelligent explanation for something that on the face of it seems stupid.

  65. Pascvaks says:

    The Fog of War is thickening. Though this is just another campaign it’s getting harder to see what’s happening and understand why, at a point all appears to be chaos –which is closer to the truth than anyone realizes– then there is the long silence, the long wait for the air to clear, the wait to see which forms emerge from the fog before anyone knows ‘who won’.

    The Cities of Europe are in for a bloodbath, if some French guy was right not too long ago (by European Timekeeping Standards). Think his name was Michael too, Michael d’Nostridamus something or other.

    US Officialdom is out and about saying the bad, bad film did it while Potus rambles on and on and on about something or other (well at least he’s not playing the violin). Everyone else is saying this was a very well planned Jihadist TET and, as before, Uncle Sugar was caught off guard and flatfooted.

    Time will tell!

  66. BobN says:

    The link below is something I came across that pulls together a perspective on the Historical context of Muslims.

    http://patriotsforamerica.ning.com/video/video/show?id=2734278:Video:404074&xgs=1&xg_source=msg_share_video

  67. R. de Haan says:

    Thanks for the link Bob. www,politicalislam.com has all the links and references to the video. Now we have to link political Islam to the climate doctrine and the financial crises to see the true policy of our leaders. The EU going for EURABIA and the complete destruction of our civilization, similar strategy for the USA. Now get rid of Obama ASAP.

  68. R. de Haan says:

    You can never wake up a man who pretends to be asleep: http://www.politicalislam.com/blog/you-can-never-awaken-a-man-who-is/

  69. R. de Haan says:

    Bill Warner about Obama: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWpl-eN0a1Q

    “Obama chops wood and carries water for Mohammed. I don’t know how he could do more, other than raising the black flag of Jihad over the White House. What more could he do in 3-years? He has forbidden people like me from speaking to federal agencies. What more could he do? He could criminalize what I’m doing- and if you re-elect him- that’s what will happen- I’ll go to jail.”

  70. R. de Haan says:

    Just for the record to finish the Bill Warner lecturers for common understanding: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9sYgqRtZGg

  71. R. de Haan says:

    adolfogiurfa says:
    16 September 2012 at 5:21 pm
    “@R.de Haan: Chess games are usually not so easy and linearity which prevails in our current way of thinking make us see the show but not what it is behind the curtains.”

    I think you will have a close look behind the curtains if you read all the comments and watch the video’s..

  72. Pascvaks says:

    When I grew up I played cowboys and indians with my brothers and the other guys; I know I felt comfortable playing either role. We also played war, nobody wanted to play the japs or natzis so we all fought against immaginary bad guys when we played war. Muslims (aka Arabs to a boy) were never an issue when I was a kid, it was like they didn’t exist; then came ‘El Cid’ and later ‘Lawrence of Arabia’, but by then I had long since outgrown the games. My first tour in Germany taught me Germans were not nazis, and I projected that into Japanese were not japs, and Vietnamese and Muslims were not ‘all’ bad either; just some; sometimes many. “We shouldn’t generalize about people!” (unless they’re Soviets;-) was the insight of a 22 yr. old 2LT. But, when the Munich Olympics Massacre happened the Arabs took a BIG hit and with each hyjacking they took more and more hits. Then, years later, came 9-11. I try to keep telling myself that Arabs (who happen to be Muslims) aren’t all bad. I’m sure my youth, teen years, majority, and now ‘old age’ have been as kind to me as most, likely far better than some, and even a heaven to a few who have been in a living hell. But… here it comes… I listen to the young (sometimes). They are limited to their experience. They are impacted by their contemporaries. They tend to not listen to the good counsel of the.. humpf.. elderly. Among the young there is more and more easy glumping of certain “others” into one and only one category; the same category I used to put japs and natzis as a child. Intellectuals might call it something fancy, it’s just visceral, primal, no-thought hate. The more we hate the more dangerous life becomes (for everyone).

    PS: If I missed any group I used to hate, I sincerely appologize. As for the people I still loathe and despise, well I’m sure you #$%#$%^&$# know who you are and that nothing’s changed;-)

  73. R. de Haan says:

    Obama administration, Libyan president clash over explanation on consulate strike
    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/09/17/obama-administration-libyan-president-clash-over-explanation-on-consulate/

  74. adolfogiurfa says:

    @Pascvaks : Arabs just they swallow the bait in….which was their expected reaction…and for free. All men are good guys until they got trapped in the machinations of the big players.
    If we dig a little, just “following the money”, we find there is nothing for free. You know….all those unemployed people would be more occupied killing among themselves in a convenient war while “we” turn all those nice “collaterals” and fake bonds their politicians bought us, into metallic Gold…..Oh! May our holy Golden Calf be exalted for the whole eternity! (BTW: Hope that f#..Jesus doesn´t come again to throw us away from the temple!)

  75. E.M.Smith says:

    Just saw a bit of news on Al Jazeera where the leader of Hamas (some notable cleric) was demanding that the USA and the UN ban freedom of speech for such videos…

    Islam is not compatible with freedom of speech and wants the UN to be its enforcement arm. That was my “take away” from his speech. BTW, the crowd cheered and loved it…

    @J. Ferguson:

    Maybe Baby Bush needed help with the big words? ;-)

    @Adolfo:

    There’s more to it than that. It looks like a planned systematic expansion of Islam and Islamic ideals, then harden the core. Rinse and repeat…

    @R. de Haan:

    More links than I can follow up… Sigh. Looks like CNN doesn’t mind being an accomplice to murder and suppression of freedom of speech.

    One side is having a Holy War on the west; the other side is helping them. I’m stuck in the middle… At least that’s what it is looking like. Damn, some times I hate just seeing facts and patterns. It’s just sooo hard to believe the farce layered over them by the ‘authorities’ sometimes… We’re in a culture war far worse than the Cold War, and we’re apologetic for not helping the attackers more…

  76. j ferguson says:

    E.M.
    I never make remarks along those lines. I can’t read without moving my lips. I’ve been assured that this correlates closely with dragging knuckles on the ground.

  77. E.M.Smith says:

    @J. Ferguson:

    Sorry, not following. “never make remarks along those lines”… there’s a LOT of remarks above. Any clue as to which one(s)?

    @All:

    Looks like the film maker is a real scumbag. I also notice that now that he’s in custody, the videos have been ‘removed by the user’…

    http://www.businessinsider.com/californias-californian-coptic-christians-distance-themselves-from-anti-muslim-filmmaker-2012-9

    Says he’s a “not very frequent” sort of a Coptic, not an Israeli nor a Jew (which he had said he was to some press early on). He’s on probation (that he likely violated in making the film via using an alias); and he’s got a criminal record for at least bank fraud…

    Looks like he shot one movie (about some random guy in the desert) with a very chopped shooting schedule and a near plotless dialog; then brought in other people to dub over the voices. Even those folks had “jump cuts”; so he’d just say to one of them “Say Mohammed” and similar one word / short phrase things. The rest was cut / past via editing.

    Makes the whole film even more reprehensible. One can only wonder what his motivations might be. Cause a war between Egyptian Islam and Israel? Get America PO’d at the current Egyptian government? Just P.O. Muslims in general? Who knows.

    So he’s a slime bucket, but IMHO still ought to have ‘freedom of speech’. Precisely because freedom of speech is for that speech with which you disagree most.

    FWIW, I’ve polished off the second volume of the Koran (the last half). Digesting the experience now. Posting to come. It’s much more “mild” that the first volume. Still, has a couple of interesting bits. I’d read some of it before, but not ‘end to end’, more random bits. Taken as a whole, it’s even more repetitive.

  78. p.g.sharrow says:

    That movie was made just for the use it was put to. It was only shown once in a closed hired theater and then cuts were posted as needed with dubs for the intended internet viewers.

    Whom the gods would destroy, they first made mad.

    Most of the death and destruction will be visited on Muslims by Muslims, faction against faction. Every sect feels that the others must be treated as outsiders that must be converted or enslaved. They must war on someone to gain paradise. Just as they have done for over a thousand years. When they have destroyed themselves the Twelveth Imam will appear and teach them peace, as the Twelveth Imam walks with Jesus. pg

  79. j ferguson says:

    Sorry, that wasn’t intended as a slam. i just don’t kid about any reading problems W might be thought to have since i have some myself.

  80. philjourdan says:

    @E.M. – re: ” Looks like CNN doesn’t mind being an accomplice to murder and suppression of freedom of speech”

    They seemed completely comfortable with that position during Saddam Husseins reign in Iraq.

  81. philjourdan says:

    @E.M. – re: “So he’s a slime bucket, but IMHO still ought to have ‘freedom of speech’.”

    The freedom is designed to help people just like him. No one has to protect speech they agree with.

  82. Pascvaks says:

    FWIW – I’ve noticed that nothing is free, everything costs something. Understand it has something to do with the physics of this universe we live in. We do have something we call free will –well most of us have at least a little of that– but I get the impression sometimes that when people jump up and down about free speech, or free whatever, they think there ought to be no ‘equal and opposite’ in the equation. I don’t know where they get that. Maybe they’re from another universe. Shouting “FIRE!” in a crowded theater and 30minutes later saying it was just a free-speech-joke is not without physical consequences. Putting a crucifix in a bucket of piss and calling it art has consequences. A Hollywood movie star wearing a topless bathing suit in the Masjid al-Haram in Mecca is going to have consequences. Nothing’s free. You even have to pay something for every breath of air you take, it won’t go in unless you suck it in and that takes energy. Dimocrats seem to have a thing for ‘freedom’ without costs or consequences, I have no idea where they got that idea.

    Just like fish, what we can and can’t do depends on what kind of fish we are and where we swim; we’re free to try anything we want but there’s nothing that says we have a right to walk on water, or anywhere else; or anything else. What is art? What is pornography? What is permitted? What is allowed? It really depends on where we stand and what we try to get away with. The courts of this country will ‘preserve’ your right to free speach –really, they will– but you may not get home. Yes, of course they’ll try the so-and-so who killed you for murder, that’s the law. People can be very, very stupid when they think they are free to do whatever they want to do and entitled to get away with it; there’s always an equal-and-opposite coming that’s going to kick them in the ass, or worse.

    DOTS! Everything is DOTS!
    (Depends On The Situation!)

  83. Pascvaks says:

    PS: Also remember that the Law also has something called a jury trial (and a little thing called “Justifiable Homicide”); the latter being apparent when the jury says we had temporary insanity, or some such excuse, and lets us walk out free and clear, never to be tried for the same offense again. People can and do get away with murder. It happens all the time. Life is dangerous. Nothing’s free. Go with care;-)

  84. Jason Calley says:

    @E.M. “then brought in other people to dub over the voices. Even those folks had “jump cuts”; so he’d just say to one of them “Say Mohammed” and similar one word / short phrase things. The rest was cut / past via editing. Makes the whole film even more reprehensible. One can only wonder what his motivations might be. Cause a war between Egyptian Islam and Israel? Get America PO’d at the current Egyptian government? Just P.O. Muslims in general? Who knows.”

    Yes. This is pretty much what I remarked at 14 September 2012, 5:29 pm. This bit of video has been made for a propaganda purpose, but the big question is, “at whom is it aimed?” More and more the attackers have been reported as claiming that the video had little or nothing to do with the attacks. If that is true (and yes, that is a big IF; I see no better reason to automatically believe the Islamic fundamentalists than I would the MSM or official releases from our own government) then the obvious target for the video would be those to whom it was most widely presented — you and me and the people of the West. Warfare is horrific, whether it is high tech or low tech, but the simple fact is, war is also tremendously lucrative for certain people. I know for a fact that there are people who would stab you in an alley for $20. I do not see anything odd or unbelievable about the existence of people who will send thousands of people to death for billions of dollars. If such people are to maintain their source of income they need cultures and nations to hate each other, to de-humanize each other and ultimately, to kill each other. Nothing personal…. it’s just business.

  85. Pascvaks says:

    I have to keep pinching myself and repeating “People haven’t changed! People haven’t changed!” I don’t quite know why I keep thinking we ought to be smarter than we are. Think maybe it was some propaganda I picked up in school, or at church? I’m convinced now at this late date, that once we “learn” something, be it true of not, it’s all but impossible to think any other way. “Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it” should be changed to “People never learn from history and those who teach and study it are doomed to fail.”

    Why do people riot, hang politicians, and burn down the very structures that make life more endurable than that of life in a cave? Hell if I know, but I’m beginning to feel that I’m beginning to feel it too. Must be something in the water. (If we don’t have something or someone to blame that kind’a leaves just you and me;-)

  86. R. de Haan says:

    Al Qaeda, ex-Gitmo detainee involved in consulate attack, intelligence sources say
    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/09/19/top-administration-official-says-strike-in-libya-was-terror-attack/

    So, the Libyan leader was right and the Obama clan including Ambassador Rice was wrong.
    The least they can do is to file their resignation.

  87. p.g.sharrow says:

    On FoxNews;
    http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/09/19/actress-in-anti-muslim-film-sues-for-its-removal-online/

    Actress says that the movie that she worked on was not anything like the one that was aired.
    She wants It removed as it has endangered her life and career. pg

  88. E.M.Smith says:

    @P.G. Sharrow:

    So the whole movie was actually shown to someone? Here I figured it for a internet only ‘release’ or DVD…

    Per the 12th Imam: As I understand it (AIUI?) the 12th Imam thing is only a Shia belief. That’s part of what makes the Iranians such a problem, not just for us, but for their Muslim Sunni neighbors as well… even the Saudi’s know they are mad… So The House of Saud would love to stay alive to spend their $Billions (or is it $Trillions now?…) and here the Shia want to mess it all up…

    Though generally, yes, they get the express lane to Paradise for killing and dying in battle for Allah…

    @J. Ferguson:

    I didn’t take it as a slam. I’m just lost is all..

    @Pascevaks:

    Sunshine is free. I enjoyed some today ;-) So is the rain, that I’ll enjoy in a couple of months…

    And don’t forget “Jury Nullification” is part of the law. The Jury can say “Yes, your honor, we find the defendant did break the law, but that law doesn’t work here, so we nullify it,”

    The bio on the guy leads me to think he had other agenda. Sort of a flim flam man, so maybe looking to make a quick buck of sensationalism? Also a Copt, so grumpy at Egyptian Muslims. Clearly not good at ‘looking ahead’ and not very good at movie making either. But he clearly knew the way he wanted the movie to go, and that it would be a very bad idea to just film it straight…

    There’s something missing in this story, about him, and why… I’d not be surprised at all to find some TLA with funding recruited him to make it ‘for a price’ and for effect… But who’s TLA?…

    It was crappy enough quality on production values that he can’t possibly have expected it to really ‘sell’ (unless very dumb and deluded). It just looks less like greed and more like deception or anger to me; then again “Intelligence is limited, but stupidity knows no bounds. -E.M.Smith”… so “Never underestimate the power and depth of stupid. -E.M.Smith”…

    @Pascevaks:

    People riot, burn, and kill because they expect to gain by it; or because they are disempowered and frustrated and blow up; or because they are bored and want the adrenalin rush…

    We are different from the past. We’re slowly becoming stupider and less competent. That happens to farm animals…

    @R. de Haan:

    The least they can do is exactly what they have been doing… screw up at their jobs… ;-)

    @P.G.Sharrow:

    Saw a bit with her on TV. Nice person who got snookered. Likely will never get a real acting job again… I suggest she adopt a new stage name…

    I’ve had ‘media training’. Part of it was how to never say things longer than a very short sentence so it could not be ‘reedited’… so nothing like “Well, burning houses down is fun; for some people. So our job is to find ways to identify them, and help them; with various medical care.” Too easy to make that: “Burning houses down is fun. Our Job is to .. help them.” Instead say things like “Pyromaniacs need psychiatry and incarceration.”

    So this crew of actors just learned the power of the editing booth…

    I’ve passed on a couple of “media releases” as the release form specifically called out their right to us in any way they wanted and edit as desired. That includes pasting your head on someones naked body (as some folks have found out the hard way)….

    Aw, well… At least we now know how to assure that the Arab Street is pissed off forever (as though they needed any help…) and how to keep Muslim vs Western conflict so stirred up that there will never be a peaceful infiltration of the Christian West. Just keep pumping out Mohamed Cartoons and insulting Mohammed Movies. Nice of Islam to hand this potent political weapon to just the folks who hate them… /sarcoff>;

    Sidebar: Found the Kate Duchess nude pictures on the internet. Frankly, I think she ought to just do a photo shoot for one of the skin mags and be done with it. She has what it takes. Lucky “king in waiting”… Clearly the family is OK with nudity (this is what, the 3rd, or 4th time one of them has been caught with their pants down?) so why not just embrace their inner skinny dipper and make some money off of it; while setting a new social trend… Once it’s all been bared and with no kerfuffle about it; well, then there’s not a lot of ‘news’ in it. Also, if they have professional fees, then it’s a copyright violation to use their image for commercial purposes… (Wonder if you can put nude pictures of yourself on copyright and then claim copyright violation for any others done without a release? If I can copyright the ‘look’ of a building, as has been done, why not a body?)

  89. Here in France, Charlie Hebdo have just fanned the flames by publishing more cartoons, with a naked Mohammad doing naughty things. They’ve done this before – last time they got firebombed, and this time French embassies and other institutions are being guarded, and armed police are outside the CH offices to try to stop attacks. Charlie Hebdo also poke fun at Christian churches in other issues. Derision of Western religions is fairly safe, but poking fun at Muslims can be lethal.

  90. BobN says:

    This post may be a bit off topic, but it relates to Muslims and terrorists so I’m posting. I read the M3 report all the time as it details what is going on south of the boarder and across south America. I actually find out more about drugs and immigration issues in the US from this report than I get in us News. The report is updated every few days not daily. Her is the Home page link.
    http://m3report.wordpress.com/
    What caught my eye are the reports of Hezbollah starting to appear in the reports. Here is a link you can scroll down and see Hezbollah activity in Belize.
    http://m3report.wordpress.com/2012/09/17/colombias-new-cocaine-blood-gold-massacres-mark-mexico-independence-weekend-slain-border-patrol-agents-family-speaks-out/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+wordpress%2Fm3report+%28M3+Report%29
    The one on bank laundering with Hezbollah out of Nicaragua I find very troubling.
    We see Hezbollah in Mexico with training camps, at least 3 reported, now in Belize and Nicaragua with tie in to the banks. I have seen bank numbers recently of the money transferred to our southern friends and it looks like the numbers have shot up, but I need to confirm that with better data. I think we are seeing a huge problem being put in place in the south and not much media attention.

    Id you scroll down to domestic USA you can see what drug and immigration activities are being reported. If you follow this for a week or two I think you will be shocked by the data. I’m kinda a doomer guy, but I’m betting it won’t be long before we start seeing terrorist attacks, much like what Israel deals with in this country.

  91. Pascvaks says:

    Thoughts-
    The idiocy of idiocies: that “The Law” is the be all and end all of everything, and that –if only we had enough time– we could and should pass laws that covered everything under the Sun. Imagine such a world, if you can. Ever hear the statement: “We are a nation of laws!” What a load of pure crap. In truth, we are a nation that’s passing too many stupid, expensive, worthless laws. And we are not the only ones who think this way. Indeed, as far as I know, the only ‘people’ that don’t have this bit of insanity in their culture are probably living in the Amazon rainforest or some issolated island cave in Indonesia. Families, Clans, Tribes, Societies, and Civilizations are built on so much more than “Laws” that you barely see the laws when you look at any of them. Lawyers as representatives, statemen, leaders, judges? It’s really insane!

    Jihadists in Mexico? Irac? Turkey? Pakistan? Afghanistan? France? New York? Anywhere? What’s Bill Cosby say about Redcoats and Minutemen? There’s something really crazy about sending Fleets, Air Forces, Armies, Corps, Divisions and Brigades and Battalions and Companies to fight jihadists hiding in caves and city neighborhoods; and paying off currupt politicians in every government and tribe. Can’t put my finger on it… hummmmmm… nope! I know there’s something crazy about it, I just can’t seem to grasp the insanity of it at the moment.

    Back in the 19th Century a fella named P.T.Barnum –I think it was Barnum– said: “There’s a sucker born every minute.” (or maybe it wasn’t ‘sucker’ but ‘fool’). I don’t recall that anyone has actually come out and said this, but today, “There an idiot born every nanosecond!” Things are not only getting worse, they’re also moving a lot faster than ever before.

  92. j ferguson says:

    Pascvacs,
    Lincoln’s suggestion that all the people can be fooled some of the time and some of the people all the time, but not all the people all the time ignores that you don’t ever need to fool all the people all the time, some most of the time gets the job done.

    Some of the rest of us can sit here nursing our stomach distress.

  93. p.g.sharrow says:

    @BobN; Not “doomer”, just not a uninformed sheeple. A wise man seeks knowledge. pg

  94. R. de Haan says:

    Iran pours more troops into Syria, ready to target Israel from Syria and Lebanon
    DEBKAfile Special Report September 20, 2012, 10:50 AM (GMT+02:00) Tags: Iran Al Qods Syria Hizballah IDF Lt. Gen. Benny Gantz

    IDF Chief of Staff observes big Golan drill
    Iran continues to fly military personnel and quantities of weapons into Syria by civilian aircraft which cut through Iraqi airspace, American intelligence sources disclosed early Thursday, Sept. 20. UN Secretary General Ban ki-Moon also said that, “Unfortunately, both [Syrian] sides, government and opposition forces, seem to be determined to see the end by military means.”
    Clearly, Iran is augmenting its military involvement in the constantly escalating Syrian civil war, broadening it into a multinational conflict which threatens to drag Lebanon in, by means of the Iranian-Syrian ally, Hizballah.
    The UN Secretary General’s statement implying that the two Syrian sides are determined to fight to the bitter end is echoed in Iran’s resolve to fight to the bitter end for Assad, on Syrian soil.
    Tehran is not hiding its actions. Sunday, Sept. 16, Iranian Revolutionary Guards (IRGC) Commander Gen. Ali Jafari said openly that Al Qods Brigades units were present and operational in both Syria and Lebanon.
    No comment on this revelation has come from the US, Israel or Israel’s military (IDF) chiefs – notwithstanding its menacing import, namely, that Tehran is no longer hanging about and waiting for its nuclear program to be attacked in order to punish Israel, but is getting ready for a pre-emptive operation.
    Still, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Defense Minister Ehud Barak have chosen silence in the face of what any other nation would regard as a casus belli: the open deployment of enemy forces on its northern and eastern borders.
    This must have been the catalyst for the IDF’s surprise two-division strength drill Wednesday on Israel’s Golan border with Syria. But the IDF spokesman sounded almost apologetic when he explained that the exercise had nothing to do with the events in Syria or with Hizballah, and that it was no more than a routine drill for testing preparedness.
    DEBKAfile’s military sources say that, in the current climate, no military operation by any army on the Syrian border – especially one of this magnitude – may be regarded as “routine.” Only a week ago, the Golani Brigade concluded a large military exercise in northern Israel including the Golan. That sort of frequency must have operational connotations: The IDF is evidently keeping the army on the move and in a constant state of readiness to fight a real war without delay on terrain made familiar by repeated war games.
    IDF Chief of Staff Lieutenant General Benny Gantz has a penchant for expressing himself through symbols, his method of overcoming the restrictions placed on his tongue by military and other constraints.
    On New Year’s Eve last week, the general handed military correspondents a small gift: The Hebrew edition of the American writer Richard David Bach’s “There’s No Such Place as Far Away.”
    For the Golan drill Wednesday, he decided to attach Maj. Gen. (res.) Nati Sharoni, chief artillery officer in the 1973 Yom Kippur War, to his party of advisers and observers.
    The book was a clear message to Tehran and doubting Thomases at home that the IDF is fully capable of an operation against Iran’s nuclear program and of successfully accomplishing any mission far from its shores.
    Gen. Sharoni’s presence at the Golan exercise, and the exercise itself, was a warning to Iran, Hizballah and Syria that they will be disappointed if they hope to catch Israel unready, as it was by the surprise attack which almost overcame the IDF 39 years ago before the tide of war was turned back against Egypt.

  95. adolfogiurfa says:

    Just tell me….what country will be the loser in the end?

  96. Jerry says:

    Don’t need no stinking vowels. Here is an illustrated Koran verse that is perfectly clear as POTUS likes to say.
    http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2012/09/horror_of_black_christian_crucifixion_in_egypt_yemen.html

  97. Pascvaks says:

    @RdeHaan-
    The problem with Romney’s 47% was that he went much too high – Dimocraps account for only 25% of the population, same % with Goppers. The Mighty Muddled Middle picks the Prez; he ought to be more respectable;-) It was taken out of context, that’s true, but hope he learned from his slip-up; everything is “On The Record”. Just ask the Duchess.

  98. E.M.Smith says:

    Looks like UAE has discovered that the Muslim Brotherhood was trying to depose them as well:

    http://beta.arabia.msn.com/news/middle-east/226596/uae-try-brotherhood-members-for-plott/

    An Emirati newspaper reported Thursday that United Arab Emirates authorities arrested 60 local members of the Muslim Brotherhood.

    The authorities accused them of belonging to a clandestine group that includes a military wing that seeks to overthrow the regime in the UAE, the newspaper added. The Muslim Brotherhood is banned in the UAE.

    Al-Emarat Al-Youm newspaper, affiliated with Dubai Media Incorporated, which is headed by members of the Emirati royal family, said that the defendants confessed in detail to the accusations. It added they were arrested a few weeks ago.

    “The defendants confessed that they found a suitable opportunity in the Arab Spring to carry out their activities,” Al-Emarat Al-Youm wrote. “[They also confessed they had] a military wing founded in 1988 to train members.

    Saw this in the ‘crawler’ on Al Jazeera, but couldn’t find the story on their web site. This one was the result of a web search.

    This is going to be really interesting… as the UAE and perhaps House of Saud start to tangle with the Muslim Brotherhood…

    Also on Al Jazeera (and Mosaic and…) we have more of “The Muslims Are Revolting!” with news of more marches in the streets, denouncing of at a minimum the USA and France (honorable mention for Germany and the UK protests which exist, but didn’t make it to the Headline News… not enough ‘show value’ one presumes…)

    Frankly, if they get this much worked up over a film trailer, perhaps we just need someone to pop one out each month and keep them in a state of perpetual rage (or aren’t they already?) until they collapse from exhaustion…

    One group is demanding that “The UN make an international law to forbid insulting Islam”… which causes me to wonder “Can the Koran be found to be Hate Speech?” after all, it advocates all sorts of evil things be done to Jews and Christians… so if they want to “go there” with the forbidden speech thing, well: “I’ll see your ‘insult’ and raise you a hundred ‘hate speech’ in the Koran.”

  99. Lynn Clark says:

    @E.M. Smith: “The Muslim Brotherhood is banned in the UAE.”

    I find it interesting that at least one government in the middle east bans the Muslim Brotherhood, but our leadership embraces them. Do you think maybe they know something our dear leader doesn’t?

  100. Pascvaks says:

    @LynnClark –
    BigBro IS clueless! (I opine;-) He thinks everything and everyone will play ball under his rules, since he is so brilliant, infallible, etc., it’s his way or NO way (just ask Congress and the Supremes). But, Obiejuan’s intelligence and leftwing politics aside… Americans really are histoically like that –totally clueless and assuming everyone is just like they are– Obama is just more thickheaded than anyone since Woodrow Wilson (and Mrs. Wilson, of course;-). I read a piece once that spoke of that trait in us, it made a lot of sense at the time and it stuck, to wit: “Americans are so unpredictable that they totally blow the other side’s minds; they’re crazy.” Not a quote, but the essence; the author was speaking about the difficulty of the German General Staff during WWII trying to figure out what we and the Brits were going to do next, they never got it right, we are crazy. Of course they were handicapped by their own little Austrian corporal’s crazy ideas too, so we can’t take all the credit. But there is definitely something to the generalization that we’re skitzo; must be the water;-)

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