Plant based arthritis treatment for dogs

This article looks at treating arthritis in dogs using plant medicinals. Found that it works.

The first formula, composed of curcumin, devil’s claw, black current, Indian frankincense (Salai), willow bark, pineapple bromelaine and camomile, was developed to treat arthritis-induced inflammation. The second included the same ingredients, plus dietary supplements such as omega 3, chondroitin sulfate and glutamine, and was formulated in the hope that it would promote the regeneration of articulations.

Curcumin comes from turmeric (i.e. eat more mustard) but bioavailability was low. In some other story some time ago (which link I don’t have to hand) the absorption and bioavailability was increased with consumption of pepper in the same meal. So you need a bit of pepper with your mustard… Hot Polish with German mustard anyone?

The spouse reports such mixes are sold at health food places, so a trip to assess what is already on the shelf might be in order.

Half the dogs received the first formula for four weeks and then the second formula for another four weeks. The other half, acting as the control, received a placebo. The outcomes were tested using three methods. Firstly, the dogs were filmed as they walked at a consistent speed over a special platform that captures the strength of each paw. Secondly, a special electronic collar recorded the dogs’ daily activities. And finally, the owners were asked to provide their own evaluations of their dog’s behaviour.

The researchers were able to identify an improvement by the fourth week of the trial.

“After the eight week course, on average, the strength of the dogs receiving treatment had improved to the equivalent of a kilo of extra strength per paw

That 4 week improvement implies that the first formula alone is sufficient.

They go on to say this implies that research into human efficacy might be a good idea…

The findings raise the possibility of offering a new form of treatment to human beings. “The model of evaluation that we have used is the best for predicting the efficacy of anti-arthritis treatments. We can therefore consider that clinical trials on humans would have a good chance of having positive outcomes,” Troncy said.

University of Montreal

Don’t know what Devil’s Claw or Black Current are, exactly; but many of the things on that list are familiar. No idea on amount or ratio though. But it looks like control of inflammation really does matter. This also implies that pushing Omega-3 levels high and Omega-6 low is important too.

I presently use mostly Olive Oil for general cooking and salads, with a 1/2 butter 1/2 Olive mix for things like cooking vegetables in a saute where I want a buttery flavor. I use Palm Oil (solid shortening) for baking. I’m avoiding any high Omega-6 oil ( seed oils like corn, soybean ) the only exception being a bit of Canola (the high monounsaturated type) if I need a truly neutral flavor oil and the others just don’t cut it. (Palm is great for frying and pastries…). Oh, and some coconut oil when the bit of coconut flavor is helpful (but don’t use it for deep frying as it foams greatly. Cooks well and flavor is very interesting on fried chicken, but you end up fighting the tendency to foam over the edge of the pan…).

The Omega-6 / Omega-3 ratio directly drives inflammation as there is ONE enzyme that converts both to an active inflammation controlling compound. The Omega-6 derivative makes inflammation, the Omega-3 one prevents it. So the ratio of the two, in competition for that one enzyme, directly drives tendency to inflammation. Lots of links on the web for that bit, so I’m not putting any here. Monounsaturates are neutral in that context, so just getting rid of polyunsaturated (especially Omega-6) is helpful. Olive Oil is mostly monounsaturated… Coconut and Palm Oil Shortening are saturated (but very short chain, so not a health issue as they are metabolized in the liver, not stored as body fat) so also don’t effect the 6/3 ratio. Just swapping monounsaturated and saturated plant oils for the polyunsaturated Omega-6 rich seed oils changes the 6/3 ratio significantly, and is very easy to do.

In Conclusion

It looks like, per this study, adding some plant / spice supplements might help, and adding Omega-3 sources too. It is also well covered in many other studies that getting the Omega-6 level down (so shifting Omega-3 / Omega-6 ratio) is good to do.

Also, in other older studies, saturated fats have been shown to not have any effect on cholesterol (neither lowering nor raising when tri-stearate was fed) so were vilified without cause, while Transfats were shown to be the really evil stuff. (Avoid “hydrogenated” on the label and any “mono-glyceride” or “di-glyceride” as these are used to hide the use of transfats since they are not counted in the fats on the label…)

That is the reason I use Olive Oil, Palm Oil vegetable shortening, and high monounsaturated Canola oil for most things. Butter and coconut oil as flavor profile needs dictate.

YMMV and this is only what I do, not recommendations for anyone else. (Obligatory disclaimer…)
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About E.M.Smith

A technical managerial sort interested in things from Stonehenge to computer science. My present "hot buttons' are the mythology of Climate Change and ancient metrology; but things change...
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18 Responses to Plant based arthritis treatment for dogs

  1. Petrossa says:

    i use about the same formula for years now for my own arthritis. Except for the cat’s claw which actually worsens the pain for me. Transfats aren’t as evil as they’re made out to be, in any case it’s highly questionable

  2. Graeme No.3 says:

    Trans fats occur naturally in butter and some animal meats, among others. I would expect them to be digested fairly readily through the normal pathway rather than stay in the blood.

    Willow bark releases salicylic acid (much as Aspirin does) and curcumin is noted as an anti-inflammitory if enough gets into the blood stream. Devil’s claw is an african herb possibly with similar properties. Green ginger is also supposed to be effective, although I’ve not noticed any help from it. What does seem to work are fresh cherries, but the season is very short and unless you live in the growing area they’re rather expensive.

  3. E.M.Smith says:


    I have the same kind of ‘paradoxical reaction’ to chondroitin, that seems to help some folks. Just goes with the turf, I think. (Part of why I keep pointing out each person is a unique biological entity come from such paradoxical reactions for all drugs in a small percent of folks.)

    That junkscience link is interesting, but seems more name calling and assertion than evidence. It would be improved with links to some kind of study or other showing a population with high transfat intake and no problems ( rather like the population in north Italy that consumes lots of cheese and is a longevity hot spot with many over 100, that points to short chain fatty acids from sheep milk / cheese as beneficial, or the French / Butter cohort who are an exception too and also consuming lots of short chain saturated fats, or the Pacific Island population with loads of coconut oil in the diet as another short chain fatty acid saturated fat cohort with ‘surprising’ health, or the Eskimo with loads of saturated animal fat intake and low heart attack – but who convert to USA health patterns when eating like non-Eskimo…).

    Unfortunately, the populations with high transfat intake also have a load of health problems. The USA in particular is a poster child for being fat and dying from heart attack and stroke. Now “why” is what’s being argued over, but it does look (from that link) like maybe Harvard and one guy have a few too many fingers in pies…

    “Somewhere” I have a saved link to an article that was looking at transfat metabolism and found that it takes something like 50 times as long to metabolize a given bit of trans fat, compared with other fats. That, alone, is a big issue. Unfortunately, as I’m “packing up”, that link is not easily found (so you get to “trust me” on that for a while ;-) My thesis, that has no study at all to back it up, is that transfats (exclusive of the ones with a delocalized bond as found naturally in small amounts in butter) clog up the enzymes that metabolize fat and slow the entire fat metabolism; shifting your energy satisfaction over to starches, sugars, and proteins. This is based almost entirely on my personal reaction to elimination of transfats from the diet, and what happens when they are reintroduced.

    Even a half gram in a day causes me to feel more hungry and not satisfied by eating other fats. Energy levels drop, and a bit of lethargy sets in. This can be ‘put off’ with starches and sugars, or with a very high protein diet moving energy production to benign dietary ketosis ( a friend went on a ‘protein diet’ and I joined him for ‘moral support’ for several months; and to note anything interesting about it. It works, with some clear metabolic stresses as the metabolism shifts over, but long term is not satisfying as it’s damn dull.)

    Being “squeaky clean” on transfat / glycerides leads (eventually, after the body load of transfats gets used up) to a higher rate of overall fat metabolism (for me). At that point, even a dab of butter (or natural peanut butter) on a spoon gives a ‘satiated’ feeling and energy boost for an hour or two as it gets immediately ‘burned up’. Cravings for sugars and starches for fuel drop way off. Overall desire to eat and hunger feelings dampen a lot too, and are easily met with even a small meal with natural fats in it.

    It was oscillating between those two states over several years that convinced me there’s something to the transfat issue. (Yes, I’m a compulsive researcher who must do multiple trials to assure things… and took advantage of various friends going on strange diets to experiment with my diet. Also as the family cycled through things like vegetarian… So I’ve included cycles of vegetarian along with cycles of ‘meat only’. My major conclusion being you can live on just about anything ;-)

    But it’s the “exactly what” that is harder to nail down. Lucky for me, I’m not that worried about or interested in the heart attack risk as I am in “feeling good” and not being “fat and hungry”. That last part is easier for an individual to prove to themselves.

    BTW, the biggest “issue” in the whole thing was just how ubiquitous transfat is in American processed foods. It’s damn near impossible to get below that 1/2 gram a day level without a LOT of diligence. Until below that level, you won’t notice anything different… So any “study” that doesn’t achieve that starting point will be compromised from the start. Until recently, I had to resort to making my own bread since ALL the bread in the store had mono and di glycerides in it (that are full of transfat fatty acids but not reported as that on the label). That means anyone eating regular “store bread” is basically stuck. Recently I found that Walmart in store bakery doesn’t use glycerides. I’m now exploring other on site bakeries…

    FWIW, one of the big ‘ah ha’ moments for me came after a few months on the ‘all meat’ diet with the friend. Eventually dietary ketosis sets in, and your energy level goes back up. Fats get burned too. Lost a few pounds while being bored to tears with chicken and beef every day… Then the ‘exit’ came. Of course, I played with it. Just a touch of sodas, then stop. Just a touch of potatoes, then stop. Noting the reactions. Adding breads “had issues” with suddenly being much more hungry the next day or three. Why breads and not potatoes? Hmmmm That was one of the confirming moments for me for “it isn’t just starch”. And that was where the thesis began to form that transfats might just be plugging up the fat metabolizing enzymes and slowing down ALL fat metabolism. Clearly fats were being metabolized fast and easily on one side of the trial, slowly and with hunger on the other. Strongly implying that fat metabolism slowed down due to ‘something’. And that something was not just a bit of sugar or starch.

    A year or two later I’d settled on a kind of “old farm style” diet, rather like Dad ate on the Iowa farm, as my norm. Leave out most things with chemical names ( no, not a fear of them, just it’s an easy way to not need to read, understand, and think about each and every item on the ingredient list; which is most often the same result anyway – and yes, I know what the chemicals are and mean and which are artificial vs which are chemical names for natural things.) So most any meat, vegetable, and grain are “in”, and most any processed packaged chemical ingredient rich food is “out”. (It also tastes great, makes me feel good, and seems to result in a healthy outcome.) Now I do make exceptions. Someone has a birthday and you get cake from a package and icecream from a factory. AND I notice that the next day I’m more hungry, regular food doesn’t satisfy as much, and eating make more lethargy instead of more energy. A few days later it’s back to normal.

    So for me, from personal experience, I can say that when “clean” of transfats and processed mystery list stuff, a few sushi roll bits and some nigiri and I’m good on energy for a few hours. Get up hungry? Some toast with real butter will hold me for a couple of hours. Have a 2 egg omelette with cheese added and I’m good until noon. Lunch of a ham sandwich with some cheese on the side, and a bit of fruit, is plenty. And so it goes. Add trans fat sources and then after those meals, I’m craving sugars and starches to get some energy. I want to sit and conserve energy. Meals want snacks after them, and between them, and with coffee and tea, and… So my conclusion is that the fats in those meals get turned rapidly to satiating energy when transfat free, stored and I’m left with sugar / starch cravings when in the presence of transfats.

    All anecdotal, I know. But it works for me.

    Now if that has some impact on heart attack rates, well, fine. But not my focus.

    BTW, Dad died of lung cancer from 40 years of smoking unfiltered Camel cigarettes. At autopsy they stated his circulatory system was fine. That, after 56+ years of a very high fat diet rich in butter, meat, cheese and all the things the Amish eat on the farm. His Mom was Amish… and he was never overweight nor ever calorie restricted (i.e. ate steak and potatoes, bacon and eggs, toast and butter, as desired with deserts and whatever he wanted. No “diets”). What he avoided was margarine and all the artificial packaged foods that he thought tasted odd. Yes, we had some of it, but not much. Being a “restaurant family” we made most of our own foods from scratch. Bread being one exception. But IIRC, in the ’50 and ’60s the bread had fewer things on the ingredient list…

    That, too, is anecdotal, I know. But it is a very big data point…

    So one really really big thing in the way of any ‘study’ is finding a cohort with transfat levels near zero for the control group. The only way to do that, IMHO, is those longevity “hot spot” populations listed above ( Italian shepherds, traditional Eskimo, The French drowning in butter and duck fat, Okinawan old people, …) and the odds of finding a good ‘control’ in the USA are near nil; making many of the papers a bit limited and most of the research tainted by lack of a control that really IS a control, IMHO.

    Also note that one must clearly distinguish between the natural conjugated bond trans-fats found in butter and milk products, and the other kind of transfat bond found in hydrogenated oils. The conjugated bond tends to have a delocalized character and act more like a saturated fat. A secondary thesis I’m pondering is the question of “Does nature use a delocalized conjugated bond to tell a nursing animal to grow and does the other transfat over stimulate that process?” Just a question at this point, but perhaps a mechanism for how transfats make one hungry. At any rate, I’m not concerned with natural conjugated bond fats, as they look to have no bad effects and some good effects, so confounding them with artificial fats is a bit daft.

    At any rate, this is straying far from arthritis, that’s the nominal topic of this thread…

  4. E.M.Smith says:

    @Graeme No.3:

    Oddly, I’m fine with fresh cherries, but concentrated cherry “stuff” causes a negative reaction. I noticed this when the Jihadies were going nuts over the Danish newspaper cartoon. Went shopping for something Danish to buy, and the only thing I found was a Cherry Liqueur… Wonderfully tasty, and enjoyed it. But every time I had a bunch of it, the fingers got creaky…

    Later found some Danish cheese and swapped over … but subsequent trials with other cherry “stuff” had similar responses. It may be an idiosyncratic reaction on my part to some other stuff from the concentration process. Or it might be the ‘freshness’ that makes the difference.

    Per Dairy transfats:

    “CLAs can be either cis- or trans-fats and the double bonds of CLAs are conjugated and separated by a single bond between them.”

    It’s that conjugated character that makes them different. The electrons tend to delocalize and the bond takes on an intermediate character.

    Conjugated linoleic acid is both a trans fatty acid and a cis fatty acid. The cis bond causes a lower melting point and ostensibly also the observed beneficial health effects. Unlike other trans fatty acids, it may have beneficial effects on human health. CLA is conjugated, and in the United States, trans linkages in a conjugated system are not counted as trans fats for the purposes of nutritional regulations and labeling. CLA and some trans isomers of oleic acid are produced by microorganisms in the rumens of ruminants. Non-ruminants, including humans, produce certain isomers of CLA from trans isomers of oleic acid, such as vaccenic acid, which is converted to CLA by delta-9-desaturase.

    In healthy humans, CLA and the related conjugated linolenic acid (CLNA) isomers are bioconverted from linoleic acid and alpha-linolenic acid, respectively, mainly by Bifidobacterium bacteria strains inhabiting the gastrointestinal tract. However, this bioconversion may not occur at any significant level in those with a digestive disease, gluten sensitivity and/or dysbiosis.

    In short: We have mechanisms to use the natural conjugated bond fats and convert them into things we need. We didn’t evolve with the strange molecules of industrial trans fats and they act differently…
    Or, in shorter: Butter good, hydrogenated bad ;-)

    It really is very important to keep each individual molecular shape in its own bucket and not “over average” things or put too many different things in the same bucket. Enzyme systems tend to be shape specific, so just saying “trans fats” glosses over that shape specific enzyme system and confounds what it can do with what it can’t do.

  5. Venter says:

    Chiefio, Turmeric is not mustard. Turmeric is Curcuma Longa. Mustard is of 3 types, Sinapis Hirta, Brassica Juncea and Brassica Nigra.

    [Reply: I know it’s not the mustard plant, but it is used IN prepared mustard, so that is the easiest place for most folks to get it. For example, Walmart house brand lists as ingredients: Distilled vinegar, water, mustard seed, salt, turmeric, paprika, spices. -E.M.S. ]

  6. p.g.sharrow says:

    @EMSmith; I must say your “fixation” with natural food treatment of inflammatory problems has resulted in one very nice treatment for my lady and I.
    Very delicious and healthful!
    I would assume vinegar and 3 spice mix to be the active ingredients, the beets and cooking method capture all the nutrients of the beets. Even more important, a wonderful addition to any meal. What not to like! They are a pain to create! To complete 12 quarts takes me all day. 12 hours of constant work for 48 pints. At least no one has ever turned up their noses to an offer of seconds or the gift of a jar full, 8-)
    And even more important I feel better for the next day or two. Oh yeah, the dog likes them, if we share. pg

  7. kuhnkat says:

    Here is a book on diet you may want to look thru to see how much matches other things you know or suspect. May be some new things too even though it has been around for a while:

  8. E.M.Smith says:


    Cloves are a known anesthetic. ( Just put a big of ground cloves on a sore spot in your mouth and notice how it stops hurting ) so I’d guess it to be part of the fix. I try to make sure there are always cloves in the house for just that sort of need. ( Making a tooth ache go away at 3 AM until the dentist wakes up, for example…).

    Apple Cider Vinegar is also reputed to have beneficial effects on health, though I have no plausible reason (other than a rampant speculation that it might help get the acid / base balance back in line if you are at a basic fringe state).

    Cinnamon tends to have a bit of ‘burn’ and most anesthetics burn when first applied, then shift to anesthesia, so perhaps it does a bit of that too? ( he does a search…) Yup.

    Health benefits of cinnamon

    The active principles in the cinnamon spice are known to have anti-oxidant, anti-diabetic, anti-septic, local anesthetic, anti-inflammatory, rubefacient (warming and soothing), carminative and anti-flatulent properties.

    Cinnamon spice has the highest anti-oxidant strength of all the food sources in nature. The total measured ORAC (Oxygen radical absorbance capacity) value for this novel spice is 2,67,536 trolex equivalents (TE), which is many hundred times more than in chokeberry, apples, etc.

    The spice contains health benefiting essential oils such as eugenol, a phenylpropanoids class of chemical compound, which gives pleasant, sweet aromatic fragrance to it. Eugenol has got local anesthetic and antiseptic properties, hence; employed in the dental and gum treatment procedures.

    Other important essential oils in cinnamon include ethyl cinnamate, linalool, cinnamaldehyde, beta-caryophyllene, and methyl chavicol.

    Cinnamaldehyde in cinnamon-sticks has been found to have anti-clotting action, prevents platelet clogging inside the blood vessels, and thereby helps prevent stroke, peripheral arterial and coronary artery diseases.

    So in addition to general health promoting properties like mineral content and such, there are a couple of essential oils with anesthetic and anti-inflammatory properties.

    Nutmeg is known to have mild effects on the nerves ( in high doses is reputed to be a very mild hallucinogen)

    Medicinal uses

    Since ancient times, nutmeg and its oil were being used in Chinese and Indian traditional medicines for illnesses related to the nervous and digestive systems. The compounds in this spice such as myristicin and elemicin have been soothing as well as stimulant properties on brain.
    Nutmeg oil contains eugenol, which has been used in dentistry for toothache relief.
    The oil is also used as a local massage to reduce muscular pain and rheumatic pain of joints.

    Freshly prepared decoction with honey has been used to relief of nausea, gastritis, and indigestion ailments.

    So looks to me like a decoction of those three spices, long with the vinegar and all the minerals and such from the beets would be not only generally health supporting, but likely have some effect on joint discomfort.

    And what do you mean by my “fixation”??? ;-)

    It’s not a fixation, just a fruitful area of exploration 8-0 …

    I wonder if that’s why I like the occasional pickled beets and odd cucumber pickle…

    @R. de Haan:

    Yup, fish oil is a known way to get the Omega-3 oil up, so shift the 3 / 6 ratio rapidly in the ‘good’ way.

    Nice link on Devil’s Claw. Answered a question or two for me (like what the active ingredient is thought to be and that it blocks some inflammation pathways).


    Interesting too. Any “synopsis” of his proposed method?

    FWIW, I was referred to a specialist for a root canal / patch on a lower molar that had (on the x-ray) the root pulp pushing a small abscess out of the root tip. Hurt a lot, and was clearly a big issue. But, at the time, I had no job and not much money. A couple of $K was not on the cards. This was a couple of years ago. Well, at home in a drawer I had some antibiotics… I decided to run an experiment.

    Took a normal dose of the antibiotic ( don’t remember which one, but think it was doxycycline ) and did mouth rinses with peroxide. In a day the pain was going down. In a couple it was gone. End of the week, everything was fine.

    Now, a couple of years later, it’s still fine. Odds are that I’ll go back to the dentist for a cleaning and check up when back in his area. It will be interesting when the question of “How did my root canal go?” comes up and he snaps an X-ray of it ;-)

    I’ve learned, from way too many cycles of it, that if I totally avoid sodas (coke, pepsi, etc.) I have no cavities. If I indulge in them, I end up at the dentist in about a year. Just don’t drink things with phosphoric acid in it and teeth are much more happy…

    Now I drink iced tea, hot tea, coffee, beer, and a lot of water. Occasionally goat milk, but rarely (as it is $4 / quart…). Avoid all soda whenever possible. Been a couple of years now and nothing hurts…

    I’m certain there is a large opportunity to stop / reverse / prevent tooth decay with diet alone and maybe with the occasional antibiotic treatment if things have gotten infected.

  9. p.g.sharrow says:

    @EMSmith; The just above comment has got to be one of the most valuable you have ever done. Everyone young and old could learn something about maintaining their health from it.
    I am tempted to lift it and copy it to my blog thread!

    Your obsession is a blessing to those that encounter it.

    I can second your observation on tooth problems and possible solutions. The only thing more dangerous to you teeth then a dentist is soda pop. Real, slow term death in a easy to use container. Long term, a root channel always results in a new abscess and tooth loss. So you saved your tooth and several thousand dollars. pg

  10. E.M.Smith says:


    Feel free.

  11. Pingback: Canned Spiced Beets | pgtruspace's blog

  12. Graeme No.3 says:

    E.M. Smith
    Cherry Heering seems to involve ‘muddling’ cherries and soaking them and pits in alcohol (and some spices). Not sure what comes out of the pits, claims that it is cyanide seem strange as it has been around nearly 200 years and that is long enough to notice customers dropping dead. After all it only took around 10 years in the eighteenth century for the British port trade to work out that adding sugar of lead (as a preservative) was not good for repeat orders.
    My thought is that the “almond” flavour might be benzaldehyde, and there may be some other chemicals dissolving too. How do you react to nut based liqueurs e.g. Amaretto or Frangelico?

  13. Power Grab says:

    Re dentists and teeth: My long-time favorite dentist retired. I slipped over to the other side of their building and started seeing the dentist over there, because it was convenient. The first visit, they’re looking for stuff to do. Before they even had examined/cleaned my teeth, it was, “Ever thought of whitening your teeth?” (Actually, I had, but since that 3D toothpaste and mouthwash made my whole lower jaw hurt after one month’s use, I never went further with that.) Then, still before much examining had been done, “Ever thought about a night guard?” “Why?”, says I. “You grind your teeth.” Huh? /roll eyes

    Eventually, they come in after x rays and say I have 6 or 7 things that need to be drilled and filled, and let’s set a time.

    I’m already feeling like a cash cow with this bunch. I said that I had been going to Dr. (previous dentist) for many years, twice a year, and he had never told me I had 6 or 7 things in bad need of fixing. I said give me a printout and I’ll see when I can afford it.

    Now, my previous dentist saw me twice a year. It was very routine. Once or twice I did need something else done besides just a cleaning. But they usually just asked if I was having trouble with anything, and I wasn’t, and that was where we left it.

    When I got to thinking about it, I realized that the only time I had trouble with a tooth, it was with one that had ALREADY BEEN drilled and filled. So I really don’t think I’m gonna let someone TELL ME that something needs drilled/filled. Besides, the new dentist took 3 tries before he finally got a crown right. He was using the latest scanning gizmo and sending it off Back East to make the crown. It always left a huge gap underneath for food to collect in. They didn’t believe me when I told them it was a bad problem. But I said, “Give me the floss and I’ll show you how far it goes under…” Then they believed me.

    The temporary crowns he made in the office were much better. Between Crown Try #2 and Crown Try #3, I strongly told him that his own temporary crowns fit much better, etc. Well, he finally sent off Back East a known-good temporary crown and got it duplicated. It’s still not as good as one gold crown I’ve had since the early 1980s, but I don’t want to return to the new dentist. :-(

    I read about Weston Price’s book(s) on root canals and decided if they ever told me I needed one, I’d just have the tooth pulled. The dentist that did my gold crown is still practicing. I took my kid in to him last year. I told him he did my gold crown around 1980 and it was still serving me well. That raised some eyebrows!

  14. DocMartyn says:

    Curcumin is a pretty good inhibitor of P-glycoprotein (Pgp) and the multidrug transporter ABCG2. ABCG2 is the urate transporter and inhibiting ABCG2 is used in gout treatment.

  15. kuhnkat says:


    basically he and others use remineralization. They know that bacterial infections are allowed by the tooth having its minerals leached and becoming porous so balancing the diet and preventing leaching of those minerals and providing the minerals in a useable form will remineralize the tooth and harden it preventing more problems. The higher quality diet also is healthier for the gums. Can’t regrow a damaged tooth, but, can apparently heal caries and mostly prevent new ones.

  16. E.M.Smith says:



    For speculation about metabolic uses of metals / ions in various combinations:

    That second link you listed is particularly interesting as it has some history of folks looking into the boron activity in cells.


    Somewhere I saw a presentation about how cavities form. Minerals leach through the enamel, then when weak enough, the surface breaks through into a cavity. IFF you can stop the mineral loss prior to the cavity, it can remineralize. I’m also pretty sure I’ve observed remineralization in small defects in my own teeth even after they formed (oddly, one of them was a cavity under a plastic filling that had been installed. It eventually ‘spalled’ off, leaving a ‘divot’ in the side / face of one of the incisors (it had been a very shallow and small cavity). The surface left behind was in all ways I could see a normal tooth enamel surface… except it had a shallow concave shape. Showing this to the Dentist, and expecting some interest, all I got was “Lost filling, eh, OK,” followed by a drill and fill… Oh Well…)

    So in other observations… IF I drink commercial sodas (canned, bottled, fountain, whatever) for about a year, I WILL be going to the dentist for cavities. He, then, takes a probe and pushes on surfaces until something breaks through and then starts the “drill and fill”. However, IF I don’t drink soda for more than a couple of weeks, the soft spots don’t form and I don’t need to go to the dentist… IF I drink soda for several months, my teeth start to feel a bit, er, soft. Just kind of a bit more ‘give’ in hard teeth clenches. At that point, a shift back to ‘all normal food only’ and no sodas and the softness hardens back up over time; and no visit to the dentist…

    For me, it’s roughly a 90% correlation of soda consumption with rate of cavity formation. I do have to say that has slowed some recently… since at this point most of my molars and one of my front teeth are metal caps… but some of the incisors are still prone to side surface defects, so I’m still not drinking soda pop unless there is no alternative (and then I try to get a water rinse after finishing the drink…) IMHO any phosphoric acid containing soda pop is a disaster in your mouth and a boat payment for your dentist, and nothing more.

    Now I try to get unsweetened Iced Tea (to which I add a tsp or 2 of plain sugar – the ‘sweet tea’ in the south is high fructose corn syrup with a touch of tea in it and so sweet I want to gag…) or just a glass of water with meals. Beer and wine if available ;-)

    The idea that it is fermenting food particles that causes cavities is just wrong. I got cavities on the surfaces well above the gum line, in places where no food can ‘stick’ for long; but in places where a liquid would tend to wash it more. The ends (tops?) of molars, the facial surfaces of incisors and , especially those closest to where a soda gets slurped in, that kind of thing. No food sticks to the tops of my molars nor the lip facing surface of my canines, incisors, and premolars. Those places where I got cavities. But soda does tend to hang around between teeth and lips… and in the spaces between molar ‘faces’ where the tops and bottoms come together in a mouth full of soda as you swallow…

    @Graeme No3:

    I’m fine with nut liqueurs. It’s just a reaction to cherries. The more concentrated, the stronger the reaction. It MAY be some other coloring component and not the cherry proper. I recently discovered a reaction to Grenadine, so no more Tequila Sunrises for me… but that is a different kind of reactions (gut vs arthritis for cherries). Recently had a bit of toast with cherry preserves on it and nothing bad happened; but that was only one slice of toast one time only, and immune responses often take a few days to build up.

    Ah, the joys of living with a slightly hyperactive immune system… So I’m less likely to have problems with parasites ( including malaria) but more likely to have allergies, and any virus like H1N1 flu that causes damage by over activating the immune system will be worse for me. Evolution makes interesting trade offs some times…

    So eating a few cherries is not a problem. A bit of cherry preserves once in a while is OK. But something in the cherry liqueur consumed over a couple of weeks as a glass a day “caused issues” with joints being unhappy. Likely an idiosyncratic reaction for me.

    BTW, many “stone fruits” have toxins in the pit / nut. So do apples. I think it is cyanide.
    but not enough to be a problem. When I first ran into this, I started to eat the whole apple, including chewing up the seeds, so see if there was any detectable flavor or effect. Taste was interesting, but zero ‘bad things’ from eating an apple worth of seeds, or the occasional “nut” from inside peach or nectarine pits. Eventually the novelty wore off and I stopped, but I’m not bashful about chomping down on an apple seed if one ends up in the mouth anyway.

    Besides, the slight “almond flavor” of it is kind of tasty ;-)


    Does sound like you need a different dentist.

    Fillings do ‘wear out’ over time (often from new erosion around the edge of the filling in the remaining tooth) so having a filling re-drilled and re-filled is not ‘wrong’; depending on what is going on in the tooth around it. At the same time, I have one in one molar (my last old mercury amalgam filling…) that was put in about the time I was 20? Several decades ago in any case. That one just works. Others typically lasted 20 or so years for me. I also had a cap on a front tooth (from an unfortunate alignment of face to swimming pool slide…) that was installed when I was 18. Then I was told it would last “about 20 years, maybe, max”. I had to replace it about 4? years ago. It had gone about 40 years. And it only really needed to be replaced as the gums had moved back enough that the top edge was showing. It was some kind of nickle or stainless steel alloy with a vitreous surface that my dentist had informed we used Uranium to make the slight yellow color right / match. For 40 years my mouth was ‘slightly radioactive’… per the guy who put it in. They don’t make them like that any more ;-)

    Also, IMHO, the plastic fillings don’t last as long as the amalgam ones. ( I think the heavy metals tended to reduce bacterial activity at the bond / joint even if it was a bit loose at some point – but a fully bonded with no weak / leak spot plastic filling does seem to be durable enough.)

    At any rate, I’m slowing moving into “all caps all the time” land, one tooth at a time… so this is a diminishing issue for me ;-) Once the caps go on, the problems seem to end more or less permanently for me (modulo one cap that decided to come loose and needed to be stuck back on…) and that leads back to the “Root Canal”… It was in a tooth with a very nice cap on it and I was not looking forward to the cost of a root canal AND a new cap AND whatever else ( a couple of $Thousand all told most likely) so decided to ‘give it a week on antibiotics’ despite the x-ray clearly showing a bit of bulge at the tooth root tip where the infection was pushing out. After a couple of days, much less discomfort. After a week, no discomfort. After a 2 week “normal course”, nothing really noticed at all. Figured if the pain came back, I’d make the call to the “specialist”… That was a couple of years ago. Still have that tooth, and crown, and no discomfort. And not drinking sodas… ( I’d had a spell of weak will and drank sodas prior to the dentist visit… but that ended.) Don’t know if the peroxide wash helped, but I think the assertion was that there was some defect that had let bacteria into the tooth pulp under the cap via the side of the root. I figured I go for ‘eradication’ with antibiotics and surface sterilizing and stick to a remineralize diet for a while and see what happened. Seems to have worked.


    Thanks for that pointer to the metabolic pathways. I am fond of ‘herbals’ as cures, but really like them better when I know just how they work and with what else they might be interacting… Guess I’m just a chemistry weenee at heart; I like to know what’s happening at the level of the chemicals involved. Saying something is “toxic”, for example, is fine, but knowing that it screws up your Krebs Cycle is something else all together ;-)

    In this case, that P-glycoprotein is interesting:

    More formally, it is an ATP-dependent efflux pump with broad substrate specificity. It exists in animals, fungi and bacteria and likely evolved as a defense mechanism against harmful substances.

    P-gp is extensively distributed and expressed in the intestinal epithelium where it pumps xenobiotics (such as toxins or drugs) back into the intestinal lumen, in liver cells where it pumps them into bile ducts, in the cells of the proximal tubule of the kidney where it pumps them into urine-conducting ducts, and in the capillary endothelial cells composing the blood–brain barrier and blood-testis barrier, where it pumps them back into the capillaries. Some cancer cells also express large amounts of P-gp, which renders these cancers multi-drug resistant.

    Might want to be careful about plugging that up with too much curcumin.. on the other hand, if you wanted to retain some drug in stronger amounts, slowing it down a bit might be helpful. Nice to know… and the potential to use curcumin with multiple drug resistant cancer cells is interesting too. Makes me want to say “Hmmmm…. ” ;-)

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