Why on God’s Earth are we helping any of these Effing Bastards?
I’m sorry for the language… well, maybe a little… but…
So on the news we have that Al Nusra Front has made some gains, so the USA, as a backer of them ought to be somehow pleased.
Yet Al Nusra Front is a subsidiary of Al Queda
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Nusra_Front
The al-Nusra Front, or Jabhat al-Nusra (Arabic: جبهة النصرة لأهل الشام Jabhat al-Nuṣrah li-Ahli ash-Shām, “The Support Front for the People of Al-Sham”, often abbreviated to JN or JaN), sometimes called al-Qaeda in Syria or al-Qaeda in the Levant, is a Sunni Islamic jihadist militia fighting against Syrian Government forces in the Syrian Civil War, with the aim of establishing an Islamist state in the country. It is the Syrian branch of Al-Qaeda, and also operates in neighbouring Lebanon.
These are the “moderate rebels” that, in theory, we in the USA support.
They are opposed to the Syrian Government and Assad, who we, for some unknown reason, “hate” as he kept things oppressed but peaceful for a few decades… but he is supported by his fellow travelers of the Iranian Shia… against the Sunni… who we love / hate as they help / kill us…
The alternative being to support the Sunni who are supporting ISIS / ISIL / DAESH as they establish a Caliphate who are hell bent on killing anyone who isn’t Sunni Islamist… rather like The House Of Saud who we just love… and want to establish a Wahhabi Dominion over us, as infidels….
Say What?
Am I the only one wondering why in hell we are shipping $Billions of arms (and have shipped $Billions in arms that ended up in the hands of Iraq / ISIL / ISIS / whoever ) into this hell hole?
We have zero clue who is on what “side” (if there are sides…)
We have zero clue who is going to win.
We have zero clue what is our gain from {anything | anything at all we do | anything we don’t do } will be.
I’m just really Really REALLY tired of $Billions of U.S. Tax money being spent on these collective Hell Holes.
Let it rot and collapse into crap without any of my money. Damn it.
Just wall them off and let the pustulence consume them. It is what nature does with a boil.
And, while I’m on the subject, do NOT under any circumstance, bring any Muslims into the country.
(GASP! Horrors! What A Bigot!!! Or maybe just someone who can “do the math” and has observational skill…)
In Europe we have plenty of data to show that the imported folks Do Not Assimilate.
Not only that, but the 2nd generation is alienated and easily “radicalized”.
This involves exactly zero of my POV or my ‘attitude’ or anything at all that I think about Islam. It only involves looking dispassionately at the data. Lord knows I’m not able to understand the Muslim Mind. I am not ‘of them’ nor need I be. I make zero assertion about what they do or do not understand and even less about my opinion of them.
I only need to observe what happens. I can’t explain it, and I don’t need to. Seeing something does not require explaining it.
Muslims from the Levant do not assimilate into western culture. Period. Full stop.
Why? Not my problem.
How to fix it? Not my problem.
Can’t we all get along? Not my problem.
But, what about the Morality???
It’s {immoral | illegal | cruel | stupid | bigoted | racist | evil | etc } to discriminate against them that way!!!!
Um, no, it isn’t. It is simply observing the facts, and the history, and saying “Golly, this always happens.” nothing more.
What happened in Belgium and France? A body of folks were imported and lived happily. Their children, reading the Koran, and raised as Muslims, felt alienated and rejected Western Judaeo-Christian Values along with our laws, norms, and expectations.
Islam has a set of norms based in Sharia Law, the Hadith, and remotely in the Koran, that are strongly antithetical to all things Western and Democratic. That’s just a fact… and a fact is a very stubborn thing.
So you can not, ever, under any circumstance, expect Islam to adopt Western Values. It just can not and will not happen.
A necessary consequence of this is that any, and I do mean any, imported Muslim community will never assimilate to Western Values. They will always be outsiders.
Now I have some experience at being an “outsider”. My Mum was from England. I was raised a non-Mormon non-Catholic in a community where the #1 religion was Mormon and #2 was Catholic. I know it sounds odd, but in California in a Farm Town as a Protestant, I was in about 10% of the local population. 20% max. (it was a strange town in many ways… Largest Mormon Stake west of Utah, but a tiny little farm town). Yes, Dad was Irish Roman Catholic, but I attended First Southern Baptist Church. (It’s a long story…)
Suffice it to say that I have been vilified, beaten, ridiculed, and insulted publicly many many times. (It wasn’t helped by being the smartest kid my town had ever seen and being a bit ‘geeky’ before the term geek existed… think about 1/2 way from Leonard to Sheldon in Big Bang Theory terms… but without getting Penny … Sigh…)
So, basically, “I can relate” to the alienated feeling of the Typical Muslim in The West. At one point I figured out how best to “do in” the various folks who frequently caused me grief… Believe me when I say “I understand the folks who want to blow up the folks around them.” I’ve been there and made the “boom stuff”. I just was able to restrain myself from acting on the desire. That whole Mum and Christianity thing actually had some sway over me.
Yet I look at the Muslim Youth today, and how they are radicalized, and I can see a very clear and attractive path. Had ANYONE said to me, at 12 to 16 years old, that I was oppressed by assholes and if I’d just “join up” with my brothers in geeky oppression we would Get Revenge!!! I’d have been signed up in a heartbeat. No doubt at all. I’d have even brought my tech and explosives skills with me.
The Point
My point is NOT that Islam is bad, or that Muslim Youth is to be feared, or even that Geeks are Scary! (even though we can be…)
No, it is simply that anyone too far removed from their own cultural norms is alienated, is afraid, is subject to conscription into systems that offer acceptance and support. It does not matter at all if you are a 16 year old Black Male Ghetto Youth and the group is a drug gang, or if you are a 16 year old White Geek and the group is a Neo-Nazi group, or if you are a 16 year old Asian and the group is a Tong, or if you are a 16 year old Muslim Immigrant and the group is a Jihadi Cell Recruiter. We ALL want acceptance and mutual support.
So, given that the USA is predominantly Christian, it is astoundingly absurd to import a load of Syrian (or any other nationality) Muslims as “refuges”. No, not because I have any animosity toward Islam or Muslims; but for the simple reason that they (be they 1st generation or the kids to follow) will eventually feel exactly what I felt.
YOU are an alien here.
YOU do not belong.
YOU are different.
YOU are not accepted.
I felt all of those, and more. ( I admit it. I don’t have any interest at all in ‘American Football’. Nor basket ball. Do you have any idea at all how alienating that is here?… I would be more accepted as a Martian who rooted for the 49ers Football team…)
The simple fact is that it is cruel to import a load of Muslims into a culture that they can never accept. (I’ve read the Koran. The culture of America or the EU today is 100% not acceptable and they can NOT assimilate into it.)
That simple fact is the root of so much grief.
Now, being the Geekly Sort, I don’t care at all if you like, or do not like, the reality that I observe.
“Reality just is. -E.M.Smith”
The reality is that the Islamic World needs to be given 100% dominance in their domain. And we need to have an isolation between them and us. They can not accept our values and they can not live in our society without resenting us.
Yes, “separate but equal”. That thing that sticks in the craw of every American Progressive. Yet is the best right answer.
In Conclusion
That is why importing a few thousand Syrian Refugees is just not a good idea.
That is why it is a ‘good idea’ to import Christian Syrian Refugees to The USA, but not Muslim Refugees. Frankly, it isn’t about me, or the USA, or Christians. It is the simple fact that a Sunni will be happier in a Sunni Arab country and a Shiia will be happier in a Shiia country.
Frankly, I don’t Give A Damn what anyone thinks or believes, yet I know that folks are most happy among others who think the same things they think; whatever that may be.
I don’t care what you think, but I do want you to be happy and accepted thinking it. I’ve lived the alternative, and it is NOT good.
In a nutshell, that’s the issue. It directly implies the answers. Divide Iraq into Sunni, Shiia, and Kurdish areas. Call each a nation. Tell Turkey to let their Kurdish areas join Kurdistan. All they will lose is grief and pain. And some dirt. Tell Assad that he can join Iran as “Greater Shiiastan”… but that the Kurdish areas join Kurdistan and the Sunni areas join Jordan or Sunnistan.
The Christians? Well, had I “my way” I’d move the Lebanese Muslims into their respective Sunni / Shiia areas in other countries and declare Lebanon to be once again Christian Lebanon as it was in my youth… but frankly there is no future for Christians in any land with more than single digit percentage Muslims and it is highly unlikely that Lebanon can ever return to that condition. So let them emigrate to the EU and USA.
The Progressive Left will want to vilify me for saying that maybe if we all live in our own area we will be happier. “Strong fences make good neighbors” has never been in their wheelhouse….
I don’t understand it, and can’t explain it, but the Progressive Liberal (American definition) Left Wing Nuts have always wanted to mix oil and water and never quite got a grip on the idea that it is better to let folks be in peace and comfort in their own beliefs and trade with them, but not mix or convert them.
“Live and let live” is just not something they can accept, even if I can.
Musings from the Chiefio 
I couldn’t agree more EM. I have another few things to add. Tempting people to come via people smugglers is evil because: 1) they will be miserable; 2) we will be miserable and in danger from them; 3) lots of them are likely to die in the process; 4) most of the ‘refugees’ are young men and if they are opposed to ISIL scum, they are the only ones who can do anything about them, yet we are taking them away and therefore increasing the concentration of ISIL in those areas.
Thanks for voicing the truth.
I forgot to mention send the ones who are here (don’t care about how many generations) to their homeland. They clearly have failed to assimilate.
If you are looking for someone to blame, start with the teachers who tell their students how bad western culture is and how it is responsible for all the ills of the world. Unsurprisingly, many of the are Green (and therefore hate all people, not just the west).
It seems our politicians and philosophers think that we can improve their way of life if they use the same rules as we do (and of course the Muslims also think their ways are best). According to the news there are about 140 separate factions in Syria, and they are all fighting each other. We shouldn’t be backing any of them, and we should let them sort out their own problems.
At this time, there is a lot of soul-searching happening in the UK as to whether to bomb Syria or not. I’m not at all sure what any bombing wins. Yep, you can take out the sources of money as regards what oil production there is, but it’s maybe better to just stop people buying it or to stop the money being transferred. There are better ways than bombing that are more specific. Cutting that money-line should be far more effective. Without money, you can’t buy the armaments and you can’t buy transport to where you want to use them. If someone has bought oil and can’t prove where they bought it legally, then they also get embargoed.
Personally I haven’t had problems with various religions, apart from the odd pairs of Jehovah’s Witnesses wanting to take up my time and chalk up another soul saved. Oh, and some dark looks when I described Muslims as a prophet-oriented society. Fundamentalists of all stripes seem to find puns on their religion unacceptable. Even the trusted Bishop and Actress jokes aren’t so funny these days with said bishops being more into paedophilia and being jailed for it.
I hold to the principles of live and let live, and if others don’t like that and want to change our ways then they should stay where they feel comfortable. In much the same way I wouldn’t go live in a country where my standards are unacceptable, for example in Saudi Arabia where having alcohol can get you in jail and flogged.
Given a few hundred years and an absence of discrimination (and also a lack of those fundamentalist rabble-rousers) it’s possible that there wouldn’t be a Muslim problem, since the UK didn’t have such a problem for a long time despite having many different religions cheek by jowl. Maybe it’s less of a problem if you don’t get ghettoes. I know that there is that exhortation in the Koran to convert others (and to kill if you can’t convert), but that’s also been done by Christians amongst others in the past.
Overall, a nice separation where people grow up feeling part of their society is going to give fewer problems.
On the problems of geeks, I was one too before the term became current (about the same age as EM). I do understand the problems from being different, and I agree that it’s not a good policy to annoy a geek since you may get unpleasantly surprised. That also means I don’t really understand why someone would want to threaten me with death for not following the same religion as they do. If they do however threaten me, I’ll find a way to annul that threat and it might get a bit bloody.
Thanks, E. M. Smith, for this information.
The chain of events after Climategate emails emerged six years ago, in late Nov 2009, have revealed an incredibly evil, dishonest and powerful force that has been trying since the end of WWII to use “science” to take worldwide control of humanity. It can be summarizes as:
TRUTH versus UNTRUTH
We have no option but to resist this now seemingly irresistible force.
The conflict that may conclude in the UN Paris Climate Conference next week, apparently began in the ruins of Hiroshima in August 1945, with the revelation of this TRUTH:
TRUTH: “The Beginning of the World . . .”
Click to access The_Begining_of_the_World.pdf
Followed by unreported events at Konan, Korea in August-September 1945 that changed the course of world history:
UNTRUTH: “Stalin’s science” https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10640850/STALINS_SCIENCE.pdf
Personal note
I had Thanksgiving dinner with relatives who either lived in Israel recently or were visiting from that country.
Takeway: There is no such thing as a “moderate Muslim”. A fair number of the Arab Muslims in the region are actively trying to
kill Jews. One American laughed at the black’s idea of prejudice by saying “imagine walking down the street, and having to make sure
that every Arab you see remains out of knife range. People only go out in groups and are armed. But the point is that there is virtually no one in the entire Muslim community who will even make a feeble protest against the killings, or the culture that fosters them. “yes, there are some quiet ones, but they are merely trying to decide what land and business they want when all the Jews are killed”.
The number of killings in Israel; Muslim on Jew in a terrorist setting, would translate to something on the order of 5,000 -10,000 per year – stabbings, shootings,
knifings, suicide bombers, missiles, vehicular homicide, if done per capita here.
The table was convinced that Obama is a Muslim based on his childhood, and that the Palestinians understand and exploit this.
The table was convinced that Iran will have to be done by Israel alone. There was no doubt that they would use tactical Nuke as soon as they had it available.
the west refuses to understand the prominence and power of martyrdom in Muslim thought.
vis a vis our politics, the life long Democrats were conflicted and felt abandoned. The reflexive support for a Jewish Bernie was not there. H was viewed as a clear and present danger already sold out to Arab interests.
A sobering holiday, all-in-all.
But also an object lesson that we must appreciate the safety and bounty a free, democratic America has given us, and vow to protect and preserve it. With few exceptions, the rest of the world is a much nastier place.
I have long been puzzled why we are not allowed to feel this way, when it is the way most people instinctively feel?
In answer to the first difference that you noted, E.M., it is well described here –
Unfortunately I have to agree with the vast majority of your sentiments. Any culture which does not assimilate well into the predominate culture it lives in, creates divisions and points of friction. Some are relatively benign like the China towns in California, but they tend to mostly restrict their violence to their own culture and rarely strike out at the surrounding culture. Every culture has its violent element Tong, Yakuza, Irish Republican Army, the Hatfields and McCoys etc. Any culture which has a blood feud doctrine is very dangerous to any other culture which is not war like or share that view of the proper way to settle disagreements.
It is sometimes useful to use analogies, so lets replace Muslim with Klingon or Romulan and ask if it would be a wise idea to encourage a mass migration of Klingons or Romulans into your community? Do you really think all would go smoothly and they would quietly assimilate into the numerically dominant culture? Both of those fictional cultures have more similarity to Muslim cultures than they do western culture.
Primarily it is due to how they define their allegiances. In the middle east in many of these areas, their primary allegiances are family, tribe, religion in that order with country or secular government system being literally at the bottom of the list. Where in contrast, western culture has for several generations transitioned to a model of family, country, rule of law system hierarchy of allegiances which has taken almost 1000 years to develop from the time of the signing of the Magna Carta 1215, when the old feudal systems began to be restructured into the modern secular/government & nation structure. Even then if you insulted the Queen in front of a British subject he would want to punch your lights out but would still adhere to the rule of law and not feel it necessary to kill you, your family or random members of your group to redress the insult. In the middle east National loyalty is largely a non-existant concept, it is only nominally adhered to and very junior in the hierarchy compared to family, tribe, and religion.
I think we are seeing the beginning of a Muslim reformation which will take perhaps 500 years. There are a small group of westernized muslims who, although being raised in a Muslim environment are non-observant and want to just get along they have internalized the western concept of rule of law and have largely dimissed loyalty to religion but still strongly adhere to family, tribal (ie ethnic) loyalty. These are the peaceful self emigrating migrants who came here on their own for opportunity to open small shops and try to fit into the local culture. They often come from the more secular Muslim countries (old Lebanon) prior to the civil war, or the major cities of Egypt who have had routine contact with western tourists for generations.
Even in my life time I have seen the same sort of moderation occur between Catholics and Protestants here in this country, and remember the times when John Kennedy was challenged to state he would not defer to the Pope by some strict Protestants who still carried the long standing old world suspicion between Catholics and Protestants dating from our Reformation. In 1572 French Catholics murdered thousands of French Protestants in Paris during the St. Bartholomew’s Day massacre. Their actions would be hardly distinguishable from the current Sunni / Shia slaughter going on in Syria.
It takes centuries to purge that sort of religious hatred and enmity from a culture. It does not happen in just one generation. Anyone who thinks it does is delusional and completely ignorant of history.
Interesting reading:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/paris-attacker-abaaoud-offers-insights-into-is-strategy-a-1064902.html
Our real enemy is not Muslims, Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, etc., but the unscrupulous world leaders that manipulate these groups to decieve those they control.
Here is what the President of Turkey said about islam: “The term moderate islam is ugly and offensive. There is no moderate islam. Islam is Islam and that’s it” He said that in 2007.
See: http://www.jihadwatch.org/2007/09/turkeys-pm-erdogan-the-term-moderate-islam-is-ugly-and-offensive-islam-is-islam
The idea of “containment” has had a monumental impact on the USA’s foreign policy. While the concept precedes him, George F. Kennan – post-WWII & Pres. Truman – a is often cited as the man responsible, at least in America.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Containment
Because the USSR was mostly land-locked and otherwise had poor access to the rest of the world, it was thought a good idea to support regimes with geography between the “Red Scare” and the Ocean. A lot of bad stuff follows from that.
Somewhere in a box, I have a copy of Mark Monmonier’s “How to Lie with Maps.”
http://www.press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/H/bo3696845.html
I think it is in the 1st edition where there is an explanation of a map of the USSR with a Mercator-style projection – these significantly exaggerate the area (size) of northern latitude lands. The color “red” is often used to highlight a scary thing, and so the USSR is depicted in the map as red. Good propaganda.
I have to admit great ignorance (in a personal sense) regarding Jews, Arabs, and Geeks; although I do know about being raised Catholic in a small town. But we were also poor and no one paid much attention to any of us.
I doubt anyone has put what the average non-Muslim in the world is thinking, any better E.M!
In Australia, we once had a harmonious society which had successfully assimilated people from 140 plus different races and religions. Then people smugglers were given free rein and our borders virtually thrown open by two successive so-called ‘progressive’ Left-wing Labor governments and we are now facing the same problems as other Western democracies.
Islam makes no secret of it’s aim of a world-wide Caliphate and are brainwashing their children almost from birth into that elitist frame of mind. If the mindless but often well-meaning do-gooders, Greens and others of their ilk don’t believe those Muslims and their endless range of self-styled Imams, Grand Muftis whatever, we’ve got little hope of changing their minds.
If you’ve ever wondered how the supply of virgins in Paradise is kept up to the “martyrs” who kill themselves or are killed in their murderous pursuit of indiscriminately taking as many lives as possible in their suicidal acts, have a listen to the Saudi Sheikh in this lot in the link below.
BTW, we currently have a Muslim taking court action against a Newspaper which labelled him an extremist for taking a leading role in a Sydney march four years ago, calling for the beheading of all who insulted the Prophet. His argument is that he was normal and merely following the Islamic religion and the Koran which called for that punishment and was therefore not extreme.
One of the features of the march was a young Muslim woman with a baby in a pram and her little toddler son who was carrying a huge placard: “BEHEAD ALL THOSE WHO INSULT THE PROPHET”.
ISIS have their 7-8-9-10 year old Caliphate Cubs in the Middle East training them in such gentle arts as cutting off the head of an Infidel or other designated enemy, and how to enjoy doing so!
The “bleeding hearts” in our society have their heads well and truly stuck in the sand!
http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/2015/11/hizb-ut-tahrir-australias-spiritual-leader-sheikh-ismail-al-wahwah-on-russia-and-global-war-to-rid-t.html
Talking of beheadings I recall that the person formerly known as Cat Stevens, who sang so well of peace, converted to Islam. When there was a death-fatwa on Salman Rushdie, he was asked about the death sentence. He said, basically, that that’s what the rules say so it should be done.
Although my own experiences have been benign, that sort of thing makes me wonder whether it’s just that the circumstances have not been such that the need to apply the Rules did not come up. I expect that in other circumstances, my sense of humour would likely get me into trouble, especially if I did not know what religion was espoused by the people who heard me. After all, most religions have a lot of ridiculous customs and some very silly hats. Just too easy to poke fun at them….
@O.Manuel:
Yes. You can see those machinations in full force in the UN. Why on God’s Earth we have a UN “commission” that gets first sort on who emigrates to the USA is a very good question. We can reject some, but they are rejected from a list selected by the UN. Just crazy… unless you are a UN Apparatchik being paid nicely by the global elites to do what they want done. Ditto the IPCC.
It is a strategy that has been used since the Roman Empire and scattering the Jews into Spain and Europe and in the British Empire as they scattered Indians all over their Island possessions and scattered blacks from Africa to plantations globally and as they set up the modern mess in Iraq as a deliberately conflicted mix.
I’ve worked in a company owned and run by Muslims. I liked the folks (and in fact took some heat here from having told them I’d help if they needed defending after 9/11 happened). I have NO issue with Muslims wanting to be Muslims and live their life as they see fit in Islam. I just ask the same in return.
Unfortunately, until they have a Reformation of their own, the Koran says that they are not to allow me that freedom. “Sojourners in foreign (i.e. not dominant Muslim) lands” are to keep a low profile and make nice, but once 51% Muslim, they are to enforce the Koran on everyone. That includes “convert or die”. (Or, if they need the money or slaves, be enslaved or pay a hefty special tax to be allowed to live as a non-Muslim… Do note that every Arab scene with a ‘belly dancer’ in it was NOT showing Muslim women; those were captured, enslaved, non-Muslims. The Koran explicitly allows for the enslavement of non-Muslim women into slave brothels for the enjoyment of Muslim men, and specifies under what conditions you must let one out if she converts to Islam… so if you want your wives and sisters and daughters to be in a Muslim whore house, just have them refuse to convert… We see that today in Syria and the capture of Yazidi and Christian girts, and with Boko Haram and the capture of Kenyan Christian girls.)
So while I’m quite comfortable working with Muslims and quite comfortable “being their friend” (even if the Koran forbids them from being my friend in return): I’m well aware that this only works in a dominantly non-Muslim context.
So yes, I have no enemy in any of the religious tribes, and do realize that it is the deliberately arranged in-fighting that is the core problem; but also realize that what happened to Christian Lebanon is what will happen in any Christian land that gets to near 50% Muslim. It is their law that demands it.
@Larry:
I’ve often used the early Christian years as an example of why I have some hope for Islam. But they are running about 700 to 1000 years behind us… “Conversion by the sword” is why most of Europe is no longer Pagen. More folks ought to know that…
In my own family, Dad stopped attending Mass since the local Catholic Church refused to recognize him as he had married a Protestant and then not had her convert to Catholicism and would not baptize his kids. (Oddly, after his death, my Mum converted to be a Catholic and when she died had the service in the same Catholic church that had shunned her and Dad…). This was in many ways amusing as the local Mormon Church also shunned anyone who married out and didn’t have the spouse convert. As those two made up most of the town, and “kids will be kids”… there were a LOT of “mixed marriages” where they both just said “Go To Hell” and attended one of the protestant churches instead… Free soap opera! ;-)
And, yes, you saw that same Kennedy dynamic with the run of a Mormon for president… It isn’t over yet…
@Chuckles:
Well, I don’t subscribe to the notion that someone else “allows” what I can think or feel. Everyone, IMHO, is a free agent. You can think and feel anything you like and I’m OK with that. As long as action on it stops short of injury to others (and to me…).
Like the poster… It is, sadly, in most cases accurate.
@Richard Ilfeld:
I’ve sometimes wondered if the Klingons were based on Muslims as many of the behaviours are similar… Then we had the “kiss kiss” in TNG where we got Worf the nice Klingon just about the time we were all supposed to think of Islam as “Christianity Lite” (which it isn’t.)
Israel has a major problem. The Muslims call it something like “the war of the womb”. IFF Israel is to survive as a Western Democracy, it must allow equal rights for all including voting rights. But then the significant Muslim population will demographically swamp it in a couple of generations. And it will cease being a Western Democracy… The only way for Israel to survive as a Jewish nation is to embrace being religious bigots and expel Muslims from citizenship. But then it ceases to be a Western Democracy and becomes a theocracy…
How they solve that will be very interesting to watch.
Trick Question: What is the 2nd largest Jewish City?
I have relatives in Israel and my Aunt from the UK married a Russian Jew from New Jersey in W.W.II England. (interesting guy… his Dad swam ashore in Florida from 3 miles out in water with plenty of sharks… jumped from a Russian Freighter passing by. Gutsy sort of folks ;-) I think that makes him an “illegal immigrant”, or maybe “asylum seeker”… but a great family. My Cousin (their kid) looks like me with a Jewish overlay – beard and all, while I look like him with a Celt overlay (red beard and freckles…) Side by side we look like twin brothers, sort of ;-) He’s a Ph.D. in Operations Research or some such and at one time when in the Army carried the Nuke Codes for Europe. “We’ve talked”…
That whole thing of attacking Jews in Israel is not going to help the Palestinian cause. I am amazed at the tolerance of the Jews. They are fully capable of simply erasing the problem, yet restrain themselves. Maybe morality is not a long term survival advantage…
Answer: New York
It was number one at one point, but Tel Aviv now is larger.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population_by_urban_areas#Jewish_population_by_metropolitan_areas
Why any politician is advocating hauling more Muslims into the USA with New York ‘in play’ is beyond me. Then again, why so many US Jews are Democrats and “drink the cool-aid” is beyond me too.
@Simon:
Our “leaders” are selected for a tendency to being sociopaths with a power lust complex. They are largely out for themselves and it only an aware electorate that keeps that tendency in check. Every so often it fails, and we get a power mad dictator in the making like Obama has shown himself to be with his “screw congress” pen. Or the present backlash running to Trump (another in the same mold, but from the other side).
FWIW, I like to do what I call “sampling religions” . The spouse and I will go to various churches just to see how they do things. I find it fun. (On the list has been to visit an Eastern Orthodox and a Coptic Church, be the spouse has been reluctant to do the Coptic thing… but now that the Eastern Orthodox is in communion with the Catholics, maybe we’ll do that one ;-)
We went to a Mormon Church once, and a Jehovah’s Witnesses a couple of times. (Communion is always a bit tricky and it is worth asking ‘the locals’ how it works. In the J.W. for example, they pass around a tray of grape juice and crackers, but nobody sips… it seems that the act of taking communion is the act of saying “I want to join you” and not a reaffirmation of membership… while the Catholics don’t want any of us ‘unclean non-Catholics’ to take a sip… but the Southern Baptists welcome anyone to sip the grape juice… It’s not wine for them, just good old Welch’s .)
One of my favorites was the Buddhist Temple. I really like their world view in many ways. (There’s a Japan Town in San Jose and at the time it was largely a Japanese congregation. But that was 40 years ago and the neighborhood is losing that special character as folks “move on” and move away. Youth getting jobs elsewhere.) I’ve been in a Jewish temple once for a wedding. Fun process. Another time they had a wedding outdoors, even more fun. Can’t say I did the dancing all that well, or correctly, but nobody seemed to mind as long as you were enthusiastic and tried ;-)
Yet somehow I’ve never been able to work up the ambition to attend a Mosque. Partly as I’m pretty sure that the ‘recitation’ will be in Arabic so kind of pointless to me, a non-speaker. Partly as I’m pretty sure I’d stand out as clearly an “unclean non-believer” and I see no reason to dirty someone else’s special moments or places. Partly just due to not having the paraphernalia (prayer rug, funny hat, whatever) nor knowing what to get, use, or do with it. If I had a guide I’d be up for it. But as a singleton, it’s just beyond my comfort zone. Oh Well.
The local Druids have a ceremony in the Redwoods, and I’d love to do that one. But I’m not all that great to look at “in the buff” and the spouse would not approve ;-) I actually know enough of the Druid and Pagan belief system to fit in, more or less. I do find the idea of being in the center of 1000+ year old trees and feeling connected to all of life an attractive kind of spirituality…
Oh Well, again. Maybe someday, or maybe not. There’s too many things on the ToDo list and not enough days to do them all…
@Andysaurus:
For the life of me I can’t understand why Western Culture has decayed into this self flagellating self hating morass. We brought the world to modernity and the most comfortable, peaceful, and profitable life on the planet. What’s not to like?
You can go just about anywhere from Alaska to Florida and from California to the far edge of the EU and it is generally happy, healthy, and rich. (Modulo a few slums and ghettos where those who refuse to accept the gifts of freedom and self reliance congregate).
Yet our collective governments are trying desperately to break down that world and grow the slums and ghettos. Drive more folks into dependence and bondage, lifting fewer out.
It seemed to really get going in the ’60s and ’70s. Maybe it’s a post-Colonialism backlash?
More to think about, and yet more ‘not enough time’ to do it in…
@Simon:
Do NOT test your thesis by drawing a funny picture of Mohammed and sitting on a street corner in a Muslim country…
The underlying problem is that America caused the mess. Not just killing and wounding millions, but also flattening their infrastructure. As Colin Powell said. “You break it, you buy it.”
The inescapable problem is that the above breeds terrorists. You can’t win militarily without vitrifying several countries. Even you might find that immoral.
EM I think the answer to that question is in those videos on r/K selection. The very act of creating a society of abundance, also creates the conditions to produce a lot of r selected people who in turn want to endorse and promote free stuff to sustain the illusion that resources are unlimited and we are all interchangeable. Their low affinity for others also dissolves concerns for caring about what happens to folks as a result of their actions and the suppression of K selection individuals over time largely wipes out the historical conscious the prevents an inevitable disaster of excesses.
As I recall his video 3 covered that as he tied up the lose ends and brought it all together. Success without stress and occasional hardship sets the conditions that leads to runaway breeding of r selected low information voters that swamp the K selected guardians of boundaries and rule of law.
Video #3
E m Smith
Yes, very few people are aware of the white slave trade practiced by Muslims for hundreds of years. It was an admiral from my home town who finally killed it. I wrote of it here a few years ago in connection with a journey through various places using a climate relatd themes. I repeat the relevant portion here. There is a famous painting of a white woman being assessed for being sold. Hope the link comes out
‘….But this story is not his. Looking at the town sheltering under St Michael’s church -situated right on the beach under the cliffs beyond the pier-serves as a reminder of the funds raised by churchgoers throughout England to recover white slaves seized from their homes in villages all around the South West-including Teignmouth- by Barbary corsairs from around 1620.
Giles Miltons book ‘White Gold’ provides an intriguing account of the North African white slave trade during this period. It includes a description of an attack on a Cornish fishing village by a fleet of Islamic corsairs. The warriors, wielding scimitars, stream into the cobbled streets and force their way into cottages, taverns and churches to seize the villagers and carry them off to the Moroccan port of Salé to be sold as slaves. This abiding folk memory was so deeply ingrained that even my mother’s generation (born 1920) still feared the white slavers that were a byword for terrible cruelty.
Figure 3 ‘The Bitter draught of slavery’ by Ernest Normand shows a slave trader offering his captive to a Mid East potentate). http://www.bridgemanartondemand.com/art/101737/The_Bitter_Draught_of_Slavery_1885
Centre of the white slave trade was North Africa, particularly Morocco and present day Algeria. It is reckoned that some 1.5 million white slaves were taken from towns, villages and vessels throughout Europe. To the left of the port in the first panoramic photo is Bitton House-formerly the home of Admiral Lord Pellew- who in a stroke of delicious irony avenged the capture of his own ancestor who had been seized 100 years earlier from a Cornish village and kept as a slave by the Barbary pirates for decades. Admiral Pellew comprehensively destroyed the pirates in Algiers in August 1816 and liberated up to 20,000 Christian slaves taken from all over Europe, from Iceland in the North, to Spain in the south, with many of Pellew’s countrymen amongst them. It was a close run thing with the outcome of the battle in the balance until superior cannon eventually destroyed Algiers-to this day reproductions of the cannon used can be seen in the grounds of Bitton House.
Two hundred yards away from Bitton House lay the home of Thomas Luny-one of Britain’s greatest marine artists who took a commission from Pellew to paint a depiction of the Algiers battle in 1820
Figure 4: Bombardment of Algiers by Thomas Luny
http://www.bridgemaninteriors.com/art/80303/Bombardment_of_Algiers_August_1816_1820
—– ——
Tonyb
@Adrain; Sometimes the best way to deal with a huge pile of explosives is to separate them into small piles and then detonate them one at a time. Of this Muslim Nations pile, only Iran is left intact and it is being rotted from inside. It is not possible to eradicate Mohammedanism but it can be reformatted from within. Maybe as much as 90% of the followers of Islam would be peaceful without the ministrations from the 10% that follow the prince of death.
The key to civilizing the Muslim world is being driven into our arms. The west can not wait for the 300 years that it will take for the natural progression of this cult to grow up. We must help NOW!:
https://pgtruspace.wordpress.com/2015/10/05/middle-east-refugee-solution/
The smell of their children’s blood is beginning to affect the thinking of these followers of Mohammad and those of this “Peaceful” religion are tiring of the killing of their people, by their people, in the name of their religion. For their moderates to prevail they must have protection from their murderous cousins while they create a real , dogma of peace. Just as the dogma of war was created from the words of Mohammad, a dogma of peace can also be created. But it must be done by Muslims for Muslims.
For a hundred years the Muslim Brotherhood and the House of Saudi have infested Madrasa and Mosque, around the world. Teaching their brand of hatred and intolerance, creating their Armies of “death to all others”. Now GOD gathers them into one place so they can be known and eradicated. But it must be done by Muslims from around the world. We can help organize, train and equip, but they need a new civil view of Others. They know what a modern civil society requires, as large numbers of them have been westernize. These fear for their lives as the evil ones have organized power and we have stepped back in the name of Freedom. Freedoms that the evil followers have bragged that they will use to destroy us. It is time we use all of the tools that GOD is putting in our hands…pg
If you search for the titles you can get to those images. but the links redirect to the home page :
The_Bitter_Draught_of_Slavery_1885
Bombardment_of_Algiers_August_1816_1820
Muslims act differently depending on how many there are in an area. With just a few the seem like normal citizens, but as there population grows they become more militant and start making demands. When they each 20% the start the no Travel zones and star enforcing Sharia in their area. Just follow the events of places like Deer Born Michigan and you will see the trend.
The sad part of it is once you let in any significant number of them you will end up with a Muslim country in a matter of years, they out breed the regular population and much of this is planned. It is my belief the Europe will be all Muslim countries in 50 years as they have already passed the tipping point. The US will soon follow if Obama is allowed to keep bringing them in at the rate he has.
I was once naive and thought them to be like any religion but I read the Koran and the Hedith and had my eyes open. They have one perverted religion and it is more of a political Force to conquer the world. People keep defending them by saying the Bible has bad passages, which is true, but Christians don’t live that and do not act on the messages, they have modernized their thinking and do not go around terrorizing other because of their religion beliefs.
I had several Muslim friends when I lived in the bay area, some even had dinner at my house. That all ended when I overheard what they were saying in an outside coffee shop. The hate was unbelievable.
Maurice Strong has met the real director of the “Play of Life on Planet Earth.”
http://junkscience.com/2015/11/maurice-strong-dies-architect-of-uns-left-wing-radical-environmentalism/
@Oliver; It would appear that GOD conspires against them. Paris is under siege by the Muslim. For 20 years the runaway Global Warming has failed to materialize. The seas still do not threaten to engulf the coastal cities, Massive Great Storms have not multiplied nor droughts spread. Nations resist giving up vast funds and signing up for economic reductions demanded by the UN Ecoloons and now their godfather has died. THE END of the WORLD is neigh for Radical Environmentalism supported by governments, as they are in danger of losing their public funded gravy train.
This lavish Ecoloon gabfest in Paris may well be their last…pg
It has been Obama’s dream from the very first — “dreams of my father” — to preside over a pure marxist plus pure Islamist country. Do the research; read his father’s (reputed father’s) writings. I did before he was elected in 2008 and knew he was pure evil. Unfortunately, he has also been fully supported by the GOPe (e for Establishment) who have made certain that the U.S. has no budget, has spent trillions of taxpayers’ dollars, and will turn to the UN as the global “law of the land”. All the candidates in the race except Donald Trump are being paid by the globalist, uniparty, GOPe billions (SuperPac). The large numbers are needed to split the vote so their only opposition — D Trump — can be defeated. They gamed the Repub Primaries by changing them so that any candidate who wants to be elected must win by 51% in 8 states or else there is a brokered convention. Carson and Trump both are part of this strategy. They are as evil as are the current Democrats — not a real Democrat among them –who are progressive-Marxist-islamists to the core. Think about how to make American great again. All the Muslim migrants — as well as thousands from other countries are part of the UN goal of making every country contain the percentage of peoples as are in the global population. Therefore, the U.S. should house 22% muslim. Goodby everything worthwhile. (Also note how much Saudi’s are in on this — supported the Bushes, flew planes into the towers in 9/11, paid for Obama to go to Harvard, at the very least.)
Well stupid is incurable.
Do-gooders are the most determinedly dangerous people on this planet.
In their desire to be seen as doing good, they will destroy everything of truth and beauty.
Appearances are everything.
Why are we , as in North America, messing around without any strategy or purpose in the arab waste lands?
Damned if I know.
The Iranians have told us what they wish to do to us, the absolutists such as ISIS even send us beautifully produced documentaries of their past deeds and intent.
Winston Churchills observations from 100 years ago have not been improved on.
Since the development and demonstration of output from the Athabasca Oil Sands, there has been no reason to even bother continuing the one sided trade for oil.
The only potential use for the Arab regions are as an example to us all.
That Moslems openly admit they come as invaders and as deliberate liars within our society, I can see why Progressives love them.They speak the same language.
When we lose it with our enemies within, it will be lots of fun to airdrop them into ISIS territory.
I am becoming quite hostile to fools and bandits all trying to get their paws in my pockets.
As our democracy and your republic have devolved into full blown Kleptocracies, the muslim creed fits right in, I am betting the large majority of young men who are the current wave of “refugee” never bother to get off of welfare.
When you are superior to the soon to be slaves and they pay you the fee without question, hog heaven.
Lost my thread, time for another toast to Uncle Mo, may he roast.
@Simon – That was when I destroyed all my Cat Stevens records, and have refused to listen to a single song of his since (I change the channel).
@E.M.Smith – You do not have to go to a Muslim country. Witness Charlie Hebdo and Texas. They will come to you.
Sadly, modern liberals don’t understand this. They think that deep down everyone wants to think like them. They think that deep down everyone wants to be free from religious oppression and to be a good neighbor, working hard to fit in.
Well the world doesn’t work like that…and at least half the people have an US vs THEM mentality. Its not something that normally inspires them to violence…but as you pointed out, it really does make them a lot less happy when they’re living in a “them” country. And as a side effect of the crazy immigration of the developed world…lots of people that are of similar mindsets, that will fit into the society quickly and easily…those people are put on the back burner.
It’s really sad when you think about it. Huge numbers of people are trying to be united into families with loved ones in other nations. They pretty much wait a minimum of a year. If they take the short route to be reunited and come on a visitor visa, they aren’t allowed to work for that year…and not only are there no benefits to help (not that I would expect it), often times even if the resident family had qualified for benefits before…those benefits will be taken away because of income made in another nation before arriving (or as in my case, not only while I lived in another nation but was legally married (but seeking divorce) from another person.
Then you’ve got the refugees…who I freely admit are in a terrible situation. They’re brought in and given everything while they increase the wait times of others substantially. Now, I’m not saying the other people from the developed world that are trying to immigrate should be given (or are even asking for) benefits…but its a huge slap in the face to the citizens of a nation that they have to wait months more to be with their families, the whole time with their family members literally prohibited from working, without support…while a bunch of people from another nation with NO TIES to the culture (much less citizens) get a free ride for two years, and are given a lifestyle that is superior to the one they have had where they came from.
A very good explanation of why immigration can never be a humanitarian solution to world poverty:
Immigration, World Poverty and Gumballs – NumbersUSA.com
Immigration gumballs pt. 1&2
The USA has the firepower to turn the sand of the middle east into glass and exterminate the muslim scourge from this earth once and for all. It but needs a leader who will do so.
I’m afraid that solution won’t work. The disease is everywhere. It needs treatment from with in…pg
The above videos (last 2) came out several years ago, interesting to note where we stand today vs the projections he makes on those charts. Current estimates are we are at 320 million which fits very well with his projections made some 40 years ago. In the late 1960’s I had a physics professor who spent an entire class discussing the power of exponential growth (this was about the time the book the Population Bomb) book came out, and like this demonstration, he showed that the numbers were unforgiving.
It is a mathematical certainty that without major changes, we cannot get ahead of population growth. As China has demonstrated even with their 1 child program they could not put a dent in the growth rate and in the process they created huge dislocations in their society, many of them destabilizing. Many do not realize that the Muslim world today due to their high birthrate are, on the leading edge of a Mediterranean/West Asian population explosion and will soon outgrow all their resources. They will not be able to pump enough oil to satisfy their own needs either for income or local use at current growth rates. The current constant state of war in that region will slow that down and delay the outcom but will not prevent it, only delay the inevitable. The western world cannot take in enough refugees to make a dent on that outcome, and in trying to do so, we will accelerate the run away growth in our own populations.
Paul Ehrlich was wrong about the exact nature of the problem as he stressed pollution etc. as the agent which would make the world unlivable. But not about the totality of the problem. Yes we have managed to keep ahead of the food curve (for now), and the disease curve ( although in the process we have rendered almost all our antibiotics ineffective) and are just now returning to a pre-antibiotic world where many infections will soon be uncontrollable. Will we have some miracle antibiotic show up in the nick of time? Hard to say but I suspect that is not a good bet.
The entire world is well on its way of turning into the sort of world India already is, with a mixture of shoulder to shoulder masses in the cities surrounded by less affluent filling the country sides. Depending on the resilience of humanity, and our capacity for defusing problems before they blow up we may convert the population bomb into a slow motion tidal wave of population growth which will sweep through the industrialized world and eventually destroy everything that we consider normal about our way of life.
The when of the final outcome is uncertain, as is the exact mechanism, but short of massive interplanetary migrations there is only one possible outcome. Like Rabbits in Australia we will over load our carrying capacity or we will have some agent like the plague or war cause a huge die back in population. Unlike Paul Ehrlich I don’t think the exact cause is predictable, it will probably come on us as a black swan event, but we can only be incredibly lucky so many times, and eventually exponential growth will run out to its historical conclusion. There are only 3 outcomes for logistic growth, and from our perspective they are all bad.
Explosive exponential growth leading to collapse and a huge die back approaching extinction, Exponential growth to a limit of carrying capacity where all systems are pushed to their limits and our current quality of life essentially disappears into a world wide Calcutta and a stable but overloaded system barely tolerable by today’s standards, or an exponential growth that leads to over stressing the carrying capacity and a controlled crash to a new lower carrying capacity and significant culling of the herd back to sustainable numbers at a new lower limit. Then over time a repeat of the same boom bust in populations we see in the animal world, just like prairie dog towns, deer herds or flocks of birds. We cannot escape those out comes, as they are biological and mathematical certainties, we can only delay and modify them (if we are very lucky).
Will I live long enough to see one of those end states? I have no clue, we have so far been more adaptable than people expected in the 1960’s and 1970’s and 1980’s etc. but I trust the math more than I trust either our politicians or our luck.
Population bombs take care of themselves. It is a virtual certainty. I don’t understand people who spend their lives in misery worrying about it. Every living thing dies eventually. Enjoy life while alive, knowing that it will someday end, and that in the long term it really doesn’t matter when. Look around you. Fight for survival of the fittest is nature’s way and has been from the first origins of genetic code. Do you somehow think that you and yours are above nature? What if all life on earth were to end. Would that be a problem? Not for nature or the universe, it would go on as always. It would be a non-event. Perhaps there is a creator out there who would care? If there is such a thing, then destiny lies in the hands of that creator. Worrying about what may happen in the future, beyond what we immediately control, is not our place and would seem to be a waste of a life.
@pgsharrow – I don’t agree that the disease is everywhere in significant number. My guesstimate is that over 95% is concentrated in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Arabia, Yemen, Oman. It would take perhaps 1/5th of our arsenal to vaporize all of these simultaneously. Over a period of maybe 5 minutes. This would cure the disease. The host would suffer as well, perhaps chemotherapy is a fitting analogy. At what point does the disease become so bad that chemo is the preferred treatment? Who knows. What would Alexander the Great, or perhaps Ivan the Terrible, do? It is said that the difference between a moderate and radical muslim, is that the radical muslim cuts off the head of the infidel, while the moderate muslim would like the radical muslim to do this. Perhaps I am the moderate westerner, who would not carry out the act but may not object were someone else to do so.
@Average Joe:
While I’m not advocating “the solution”, but more hopeful for a Muslim Reformation, I’d like to point out an error in your statement. You stated “1/5th of our arsenal”. Not even close.
One single submarine is sufficient. Even the French one.
http://www.nti.org/analysis/articles/france-submarine-capabilities/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_de_dissuasion
So sixteen missiles per sub.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M51_%28missile%29
10 warheads each. 160 warheads.
Now try, just TRY to find 160 cities large enough to need a nuke to take them out in the Muslim World around the Mediterranean. One sub. 6,800 mile radius. Middle of the Med. Not much left.
Then there are 3 more of them still sitting unused. From France alone.
That is what the idiots who attacked Paris do not understand. It’s a very bad idea to attack Paris.
I was thinking along the lines of making every last square mile of land scorched earth, but perhaps as you say hitting only cities would be sufficient. It is surreal to think about, but I think the chances of a major nuclear engagement happening by 2100 is more likely and dangerous than a bit of CO2 fertilizer in the air causing global destruction.. One thing I agree with Putin on, when you see a fight is inevitable make sure to strike first with everything you’ve got.
About 30 countries excluding the Asia / Indonesia half dozen.
Most have a capital city and maybe one major port city or economic center. That’s 60.
You now need to decide what small towns and cross roads, not already in the fallout zones, are worth the cost of a bomb… Pick 100. You will rapidly find yourself looking at under 10,000 population places that would collapse into ruin anyway, with the major cities, production, government, and transport gone. That’s the dilemma of nuclear war….
Something needs to be done about this scourge. GOD will not permit humans true space travel as long as they follow Warlords…pg
If this turns out to be true, the EU’s days are numbered, they are setting up conditions for an European spring social collapse if they are not careful.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-12-02/hungary-s-orban-says-germany-struck-secret-turkey-refugee-deal
Decided to Fact Check myself on city size distribution. Sampled some countries like:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_in_Tunisia
I was surprised to see that Muslim countries are a flatter distribution than many 3rd world countries. Instead of “the usual” of capitol, econ, port; there are more midsized cities. So Tunisia has 7 over 100, 000 population.
It might take 2 subs to get down to the under 100, 000 size for all that’s left…
This is an interesting read on the dilemma of the merging of Muslim cultures and the west. A bit long but goes into the complexities of he issue and the fact that many of the public stereotypes really only apply to a fraction of those who consider themselves Muslims. Just like Republicans or Democrats, socialists or Communists, Christians or Jews, each population group is a continuum ranging from extreme adherence to dogma to only nominal support for a world view.
http://20committee.com/2015/01/21/the-west-islam-and-the-last-stand-of-the-weird/
@Larry:
I thought that was kind of well known?…
The problem is that an “extremely dogmatic” Democrat compulsively chants “Gun Control!!” at any shooting even though the shooter was in no way going to be stopped by their solution, while the similarly dogmatic Republican chants “Free Market!!!” to any economic question while the dogmatic Christian flagellates themselves and prays for your soul and the dogmatic Communist chants “Let the STATE run your life!!!”… and the dogmatic Muslim chops your head off and kills 20 strangers…then blows up the place.
Um, I think that makes the whole dogma of that species a bit of a problem…
It is well known to folks who waste time thinking but for many it is so much less work to just throw everyone in the same pile like claiming the NRA is evil and them moving on. No wasted energy firing synapses that way. I just like the way he lays it out and points out how even within one group, there are large differences depending on which region they come from and which subgroup they belong too. Many people have difficulty seeing reality as a continuum they try to pigeon hole groups and ideas in black or white boxes, and that always ends up with them being wrong most of the time.
It constantly amazes me when folks on the web assign beliefs to conservatives which are in may cases 180 degrees out of phase with all the conservatives I know, and then defend their beliefs and find that maybe 80% of what they think is the opposite is actually true of the group they are trying to demonize.
Classic example would be the Occupy Wall Street protesters and the Tea Party folks. The two groups actually agree on several important issues but they are so blinded by the fact they are viewing the same problem from opposite sides of the room that they cannot see the areas of convergence. If we had a leader in this country who could tap into those convergences and tease them out of the rhetoric you would be able to get general consensus on some important issues and possibly start the process of digging us out the the hole we are busy burying ourselves in the areas of financial, regulatory abuse of power and corruption in high places.
Take the recent calls for anyone on the no fly list not being able to buy a gun. If you are against that proposal you are instantly labeled an idiot or a supporter of terrorism. No one bothers to mention that the basic assumption of the proposal that the no fly list is a valid list of people at risk is wrong. It is a useless feel good response that gets children and grandmothers listed and no one knows how or why they got put on the list, nor can people find a process to audit the list and get your name off the list. Because it is so arbitrary anyone (literally anyone) could be tagged for that list at any time and be denied their rights with no effective recourse. Over haul the list so it is a valid well audited list of folks at high risk for terrorist action and create a system where people could challenge their listing and demand a “show cause” declaration from the TSA and I might support it. Until then no thanks not interested in any secret black lists those are things that totalitarian governments have always abused and we should not go there without lots of careful consideration.
@Larry – not that I am disagreeing with your comment just yet, but I am curious about one thing. What do the Tea Party and OWS have in common in their beliefs?
They are both protesting run away corruption and abuse of the system, they just see different perpetrators behind the same issues and different methods to try and control it. OWS sees evil bastards in the corporate world as the ring masters and the tea party sees the evil bastards as the politicians who are corrupted by those same power players. OWS is protesting the runaway engine, and the Tea Party are complaining that the brakes (people’s representatives who will not actually represent the people) are not good enough to stop the run away train. They are just trying to use different levers to stop the train.
Obviously the OWS folks like big government and the Tea Party folks strongly dislike big government but in their own world view they are really trying to fix the same problem. OWS thinks a bigger government and more regulation will stop the corruption and abuse of power, while the Tea Party folks realize that big government and over regulation is a key part of the problem of corruption and abuse of power, because many of the entrenched power players in politics are in the pocket of the big money evil bastards.
OWS wants to get to the engine so they can drive the train, and the Tea Party folks want to uncouple the train from the run away engine.
@OWS – Thanks for the explanation. I can see what you say now. But I do not see a common solution, so I do not see a common interest. In the end, one wants bigger government, and the other wants a smaller one. Corporate Cronyism is definitely a problem, but that is due to the fact that government has the power to award favors. And both sides do (D and R). You have one movement that recognizes both the problem and the source, and the other that sees the symptoms and wants to treat the symptoms with more poison.
Sorry, that was @Larry Ledwick. Fingers moving faster than brain.
There is a large difference between OWS and Tea Party. Tea party folks pay their own way, are considerate of others and leave a clean area when they leave. The OWS people trash any area they occupy, convenience everyone they encounter and are paid to show up.
On several occasions when interviewed they stated that they were PAID to show up and maintain their “demonstrations” and occupation of streets and parks. The question IS, just WHO is the puppet master?…pg