Dear President Trump – A “Dreamers” Solution

There are a large number of “Children of Illegal Immigrants” who were brought into the USA, often at a very young age, know no other country, really, and yet are not U.S. Citizens. That makes them subject to deportation under current law. These folks are called “Dreamers” by many, as a reference to their “dream” of living in the USA.

I think there is a simple solution that requires no new laws, no “amnesty”, and yet benefits both the U.S.A. and the “Dreamers”.

The short form is “Enlist in the US Military”.

The Law & Process

lists the present requirements. Of particular note is that requirements under conditions of hostilities:

There is no minimum age requirement for an applicant under this section. The designated periods of hostilities are:

April 6, 1917 to November 11, 1918
September 1, 1939 to December 31, 1946
June 25, 1950 to July 1, 1955
February 28, 1961 to October 15, 1978
August 2, 1990 to April 11, 1991
September 11, 2001 until the present

Note two things.

1) There is NO minimum age requirement.
2) We have been in a ‘period of hostilities’ for the last 16 years. That ought to cover most of the “Dreamers” and those over 18 can join anyway. That leaves those 17 years old. I think we can find a way to “take a year” to get them processed…

Ok, what are the requirements?

Naturalization through Qualifying Service during Periods of Hostilities

Generally, members of the U.S. armed forces who serve honorably for any period of time (even 1 day) during specifically designated periods of hostilities (see below) are eligible for naturalization under section 329 of the INA through such military service.

In general, an applicant for naturalization under INA 329 must:

Have served honorably in active-duty status, or as a member of the Selected Reserve of the Ready Reserve, for any amount of time during a designated period of hostilities and, if separated from the U.S. armed forces, have been separated honorably
Have been lawfully admitted as a permanent resident at any time after enlistment or induction, OR have been physically present in the United States or certain territories at the time of enlistment or induction (regardless of whether the applicant was admitted as a permanent resident)
Be able to read, write, and speak basic English
Have a knowledge of U.S. history and government (civics)
Have been a person of good moral character during all relevant periods under the law
Have an attachment to the principles of the U.S. Constitution and be well disposed to the good order and happiness of the U.S. during all relevant periods under the law

So what do I think it would take? Pretty simple, really.

Establish a program of education that leads to a Military Induction. Like ROTC but for enlisted members as well as those working toward officer status. Issue the curriculum requirements (Civics, History of the USA, Military History, English, Military Life Skills) and certify any public school that applies to the program to administer that curriculum. Have a presidential order that any child who enrolls in the program and signs a contract (co-signed with their parent) to enlist at the age of majority will be allowed to stay in the USA as long as they fulfill both the program and their enlistment.

IMHO, anyone resident in the USA who is willing to fulfill those requirements AND join the military, with an honorable service record, is suited to be a citizen.

So that’s the idea. Kick it around. Look for “issues”…

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About E.M.Smith

A technical managerial sort interested in things from Stonehenge to computer science. My present "hot buttons' are the mythology of Climate Change and ancient metrology; but things change...
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61 Responses to Dear President Trump – A “Dreamers” Solution

  1. Larry Ledwick says:

    Sounds like a good solution to me!
    Nothing in the force structure that requires those in the military to serve in an infantry unit etc. you could create community service battalions that although in the military and having finished basic training (basic would likely have to be modified for those under 16) did most of their service performing public works like assignments.

    Tasks could be anything from building bike trails to rehabilitating shattered neighborhoods in Detroit (clean up fix up for seniors), medical training and service in the VA system caring for soldiers recovering from combat injuries, – – the list is endless regarding tasks that strengthen both the military and the community, with the people involved working in non-high risk tasks until they reach age 18 then if they choose to stay move into the normal military force structure to complete their enlistment.

    Like in Vietnam where you did 2 years if drafted service or 4 years active if enlisted, with a total service of 6 years including a period in the inactive reserve subject to call up during major disasters or other emergencies, with full citizenship on honorable separation.

    Another benefit is offer an expedited citizen ship for immediate blood family of those who successfully complete their term of service.

  2. Ian W says:

    It seems like a good idea – but as Larry said above, a period longer than 1 day would be required, I would suggest 2 years service after completion of training. Take it further and the training could include useful trades electrics, avionics, mechanical engineering, vehicle maintenance etc. That way not only are the individuals concerned doing something useful and getting a path to citizenship but they are learning a ‘trade’ that ensures that they are productive when they leave the ‘military’.

  3. cdquarles says:

    That’s an excellent idea. It could be extended to select civilian service, like the NHSC. Note that the NHSC people are, or were, automatically in the reserve as medics LT JG, if I am remembering correctly.

  4. H.R. says:

    Hate to rain on the parade, but we have 93 million out of the labor force. However, we could pay the dreamers to dig holes and fill them in as a path to citizenship while all the newly created jobs are filled first by Americans.

    E.M., your idea still requires the taxpayer to take care of the 93 million Americans and continue to take care of the illegal aliens.

    Now that we’ve given the H1Bs outstanding hands-on experience, we should send them home with their valuable experience to build up their own countries.

    /grumpy old curmudgeon

  5. E.M.Smith says:

    @Ian W.:

    I think the 1 day was for those killed or wounded in action… the requirement for an honorable discharge covers the need to assure folks don’t quit on day 2 post induction.

  6. E.M.Smith says:


    This is for kids. I don’t think they are sucking up jobs… FWIW, I don’t believe “make work” works.

    In any case, they do schooling until 18 then are inducted into the military for a service term. Don’t see how that impacts jobs much…

  7. Canadian Friend says:

    Let’s be real here, it is almost exclusively non-whites who enter illegally white nations and want to live there.

    Syrians and various muslims in Europe and mexicans and various south americans in north america.

    Almost no white people enter non-white nations illegally because they want to live there at any cost,

    the white race is not even 10 % of the almost 8 billion humans on this planet.

    if we let people in as long as they do A or B or C eventually billions will come here ( and the UN says within a few decades the planet’s population will be easily over 10 billion )

    and once north america is over populated the same problems they have in places such as Africa or El Salvador will happen here.

    moving to white nations is not the solution.

    non whites should work on improving life in their nation for their people instead of flee they nation and come in our nation.

    watch this video, the guy uses gumballs and glass containers to show why immigration does not make much sense.

    it is simple yet brilliant.

  8. Serioso says:

    Chief, I like your idea, assuming service in Americorps or similar (non-military) would be included. I have several friends who received US citizenship in this fashion, back in the day when there was a military draft. They earned their citizenship, rightfully so.

  9. David A Anderson says:

    It is an interesting thought. I would add formal education into US principles of liberty and small government.

    Another thought; these children have a home nation. Why not aid that nation by sending them back with more then adequet financial aid, ( far less costly to the US) far better for the home nation to be kickstarted into solutions that stop the flow. The EU is learning that the demand for free housing, food, and expenses is unlimited, so stopping the flow of more imigrants is a requirement with this idea as well.

  10. David A Anderson says:

    Also, I never understood why the ONLY considered solution to M.E. and N.A. into Europe ” humanitarian crisis” is and has been immigration. IMV that is ridiculous, and indicative of a political objective.

  11. bruce says:

    I like the idea, basic training should be training for everyone. Got to admit I never did it though.
    Just as long as they don’t get their training at a institution that wants to create a better world.

  12. H.R. says:

    @E.M. – “This is for kids.”

    Ah yes, I forgot. However, you wrote: “The short form is “Enlist in the US Military” which didn’t bring 4-5-6-years-old to mind, thus jobs concern.

    When I lived in SoCal in the early 1970’s, a couple of my running buddies were children of Mexican illegals. There weren’t enough people for the available jobs at the time so taking care of their children was not put on U.S. or local taxpayers; the parents worked and supported themselves and their own kids. Both of my buddies joined the military to gain citizenship and I was quite proud of them.

    I don’t have a problem with “catch and return or else serve in the military” for those who are the right age. Whatever we paid for them in taxes is a sunk cost, so going forward, they should at least carry their own weight as U.S. citizens.

    But today we have an influx of illegals and their children who are here and living on the largess of the U.S. taxpayer, and we don’t have the money for it; the credit card is maxed out. If there’s a solution whereby they are carrying their own costs and demonstrably want to assimilate into American culture (Many don’t, you realize. They are just here for the benefits and still think of themselves as citizens of their home country with a very long commute.), then those are the people we should be working with.

    Do recall, when the entry point for the U.S. was Ellis Island for the mass immigration of the Germans, Italians, Irish, etc. that we turned many away because they were sick/contagious or had no skills or had no proof that they would not be a burden to the U.S.

    What plan do we have to to make sure that any illegals who are already here – from any country – have paid their way and are here to assimilate?

    My daughter-in-law emigrated from China, paid for her own college education, didn’t cost the taxpayers a dime for her upkeep, went through the l-o-o-o-ng and legal process to become a U.S. citizen, and thinks of herself as an American. She is not very sympathetic to the line-jumpers.

  13. bruce ryan says:

    Knowing a few members of the illegal immigrants from South of the border, (I worked in construction, a field that became dominated by I.A..) I’d say that their work ethic is strong. There is no doubt though they will utilize the safety net, healthcare, education, whatever freebies are out there. Generally though I’m inclined to say they work rather than mootch. In part because that keeps their profile low.
    My perception is that they are left of center politically as a result of their upbringing in their home countries.
    While I’m at it, one of my favorite wook buddies died / disappeared crossing the southwest. (He went home annually to see his family.) How, no one is sure, perhaps by a harried coyote, perhaps by lack of water. So fixing the immigration issue would be a good thing on several levels. Keeping it the same, is a crime. Baiting and then expecting them to arrive on their own is wrong. Whether it is intended or not, current policy isn’t the mark of an enlightened society.

  14. Titan 28 says:

    There may be some wiggle room on the dreamer issue. It could depend on the numbers. The larger issue for me, and I am not sure this is correct, is that dreamers who become citizens can then act as “anchor babies” (what liberals call “family unification”). If this is so, then you are not simply making, say, 100,000 (there could be a million; I don’t know) new citizens, but you are making citizens of their parents, siblings and extended family, sort of like 15 for the price of one. If that is the case, then they have to go. Or the left has to put “family unification” to sleep.

  15. p.g.sharrow says:

    Also add that at most 30% of the so called Dreamers would even qualify to inter the military. Some of them are now in their 50s and 60s!
    this problem has been brewing for at least 60 years and every time the congress tries to address it the Democrats and the unions stop real solutions…pg

  16. philjourdan says:

    DREAM – Development, Relief, and Education for Alien Minors (act)

    It actually is an acronym, and stands for more than just the “dream” (which some clearly do not do as their rhetoric makes clear).

    But I fully support your idea. I have seen it stated before, and see no reason to send these children back. Yes, they are a product of a criminal act. But they are also not knowing accomplices of the action, and should be given an opportunity to prove themselves.

  17. John F. Hultquist says:

    Canadian Friend says: “Let’s be real …

    And then CF goes off half-cocked.
    ” … if we let people in as long as they do A or B or C eventually billions will come here…

    Well no. The whole idea of calling yourself a Nation and having borders is to prevent just such a thing.

    … ( and the UN says within a few decades the planet’s population will be easily over 10 billion )…

    Well no, the UN does not say that. Here is what, given reasonable assumptions, they do say:

    “Under the assumptions made in the medium
    scenario projection, world population will not
    vary greatly after reaching 8.92 billion in 2050
    (figure 6). In another 25 years, by 2075, it is projected
    to peak at 9.22 billion, only 3.4 per cent
    above the 2050 estimate. It will then dip slightly
    to 8.43 billion by 2175 and rise gradually to 8.97
    billion, very close to the initial 2050 figure, by
    2300. Therefore, world population growth beyond
    2050, at least for the following 250 years, is expected
    to be minimal.
    ” [ p. 12 ]

    Click to access WorldPop2300final.pdf

  18. E.M.Smith says:

    @Canadian Friend:

    Um… don’t know how to break this to you, but lots of Arabs, North Africans, Persian derived muslims, Syrians, etc etc are biologically caucasians. You use “white” and “non-white” too loosely.

    Similarly, much (most?) of Mexico, Central America, and South America are European derived peoples. So “white”.

    Yes, many of the poorest in Latin America (though not near all) are from minority populations in their home countries. This has far more to do with their historical racist cultures promoting Spanish heritage and privilege over native, and very little to do with inherent genetic or cultural traits.

    As example, Brazil has about 10% African slave derived population (and similar native Indian population). That makes them genetically about 80% European (mostly Portuguese but also many others). Similarly, Argentina has a huge percentage each of Italian, British, and German derived population (and Irish went pretty much everywhere…).

    So, when my English, Irish, and German relatives “immigrated” to the non-white lands full of Indians, from Agentina to Brazil, to Mexico, to North America: Were they not immigrating to non-white lands for a better life?

    I think you will find the racial POV a poor one for describing the broad scope of historical (or current) migations. It has far more to do with bad governments and a modest amount to do with sudden cold plunges in climates.

    Per the racial purity argument you allude to:

    Until and unless you destroy global travel, that’s a waste of time.

    All peoples from all over the world like to get in each other’s pants. Always has been, always will be. The gene maps of the old Roman Empire space shows that.

    So until you forbid contact between peoples, it is only a rate problem (“problem” in the math sense, not social or politiacal sense) not an outcome level problem.

    The Globe WILL become one continum of types, like it or not. Better get used to that.

    My “Black Motorcycle Buddy” married a lady from the Phillipines. I’d guess she is mostly polynesian with only a little Spanish. They moved to Korea (working on computer systems at an Air Base) where his (very good looking and smart) kids picked up Korean in months… and now are no doubt the interesting exotic types that many locals were interested in “sharing pants time” with…

    My son married a lady who is a mix of Dutch and Puerto Rican. I suspect there may be a bit of Africa in the Puerto Rican mix, but nobody cares enough to find out. (Long legs and a bit of waves to the dark hair on her side). Looks like my grandson is getting blond and blue eyes out of the mix… WITH long legs, speed, and energy from the other bits. So is he “white”? Non-white? Impure mutt? Or my cherished grandson with a LOT of hybrid vigor?

    Now that’s just two examples. Most folks in the Americas have similar stories. Substantially, we just don’t care. The heart loves who it loves, “color” be damned, and the genetics of hybrid vigor says the children of crosses “out” will be better off than those from inbread populations.

    Looking up stream to Europe, you will find that even the “pure” German or French or… is in fact already a mash up of dozens of peoples. Not even the root nationalities were a pure type…

    So my nephew can trace his roots to:Britain (Celts, Saxons, Angles, Vikings, “French”), Ireland (Celts, more Vikings, Spainish origin Celts, English,…), Germans (from Holland via Switzerland…), French (Germanic Franks, Celtic Gauls, Italic and other Romans, Norseman Vikings), and that is just on his Mom’s side… Dad added more Euro-mutt AND about 1/4 American Indian.

    So does my nephew qualify for your “white” type?

    Does it change when I point out his very blond hair, bright blue eyes, and fair skin? How about the fact he can get a tan and has lower skin cancer risk than me? Or that he has Native American high cheekbones? BTW, he works in high tech in Silicon Valley… does making money and being very bright erase his “non-white” part in your scheme?

    As you might guess, It does not bother me at all that 100% of my parents grandkids and / or greatgrandkidds have “non-white” contributions in their genetic mix. So far every one of them has benefitted from the richer gene set. Hybrid vigor is a very good thing.

  19. John F. Hultquist says:

    @Phil re: DREAM
    Thanks for that. This is a topic I haven’t paid a lot of attention to.

  20. E.M.Smith says:

    Well, agreement with Serioso… there is hope in the world…

    @David A. Anderson:

    The immigration as solution is from Soros and his desire to destroy national identities.

    The “send them back” problem is that they are often spurned minority populations in their source country. One must look inside the source country racial, religious, and tribal infighting to see that.


    IMHO there ought to be ZERO public support payments for non-citizens. I don’t care what their status (with a possible exception for those well into the naturalization process). No candy just this side of the wall…

    @Bruce Ryan:

    I have described that as slamming the back door entry, and opening the front door to our friends… why have peopke breaking the law to sneek in the back? Tell them to go around front, and fix THAT process.


    Nuke family unification. Jets go the other way, should unification be that important. My Mum emmigrated and never saw a sibling for 18 years until a trip back to the UK. One brother was not seen until about 45 years after she moved to the USA. Suck it up and deal with reality.


    Somewhere else? So another of my ideas stolen by someone else before I had it! The nerve!


  21. Larry Ledwick says:

    During our peak immigration years (ie Ellis Island) immigrants were carefully screened. If sick – sorry go over to this hospital and if you don’t die we will put you back in the screening process, no job or skills sorry go back where you came from.

    In the process you had to have a sponsor, a promise of a job, or an identifiable and desirable skill to be admitted. That is why so many Irish came in, they were known to be hard workers, often had sponsors from family and friends already here or took a term as indentured to learn a trade (ie promise of a job). Once unlimited immigration ended with the establishment of rules for immigration we have always screened new arrivals, until recently when all you had to do was be able to breath and walk to qualify.

    Something like 60% of the middle east immigrants/refugees are not even literate in their own language, they can speak it but not read or write to any meaningful degree.

    People forget that we had the same back lash against massive immigration in prior immigration waves (Irish, Italian, German, Slavic etc.) the country can only efficiently absorb and acculturate a moderate number of refugees/immigrants. If you bring them in too quickly faster than they can fit into the fabric or the country, you end up with isolated communities (China towns on the west coast, and until just a few decades ago Italian or other ethnic neighborhoods on the eastern seaboard. In the 1960’s even Denver still had predominately Italian neighborhoods in North Denver, that neighborhood has transitioned to Hispanic over the last 30 years or so. Oh and by the way my Italian neighbor when I lived in that area was not at all fond of the Hispanic new comers.

    Humans are hard wired to be tribal, but it takes a long time to shift people from a racial tribe to a national tribe. The current immigrants from the middle east are tribe composed of family clan lines, so they are about 3 – 4 transitions away from identifying primarily with a nation rather than their cousins aunts and uncles.

    To fully blend into the classic American culture they need to transition from clan – to – Tribe – to – religion – to – sect of their religion – to – nation as their identity. That will take 5 or more generations.

  22. Larry Ledwick says:

    A Muslims view on the pause in immigration from several middle eastern countries.

    I agree with the above, I think Trump should designate those who have worked as interpreters for our troops as already vetted by their actions in combat. They should with one recommendation from a American Soldier that they worked with, be approved for immigration and given priority as someone who has demonstrated at the risk of their own lives that they support American ideals and reject violent Jihadists. Like the special status of other oppressed religious groups in the executive order (Christians, Yazidi etc.)

  23. agimarc says:

    The problem with the dreamers is not the dreamers per se, it is that they will be used as an anchor for immigration of immediate and extended family members into the US. We still have the issue of line jumpers – people who jump ahead of those trying to go through the formal immigration system. O’Bama literally invited these people into the country.

    I have a hard time getting my hands around parents who will send their kids on the long trip from Central America with hopes of them getting to cross the border and become dreamers. A not insignificant number of those don’t complete the trip alive. Cheers –

  24. H.R. says:

    @E.M. who wrote, “So another of my ideas stolen by someone else before I had it! The nerve!”

    Yes! I’m always surprised how often that happens to me. There ought’a be a law… ;o)

  25. Canadian Friend says:

    None of you got my point.

    Maybe 20 years from now you will.

  26. Gail Combs says:

    I agree with H.R. 28 January 2017 at 3:18 pm

    Use your heads not your hearts and LOOK at the statistics.

    Trump says a country without borders is not a country and that is what we have right now. Our country is GOING Going…. and will be completely GONE if we do not completely HALT immigration for a period of AT LEAST 30 – 60 years.

    ALWAYS keep in mind that Bush II doubled the national debt and then Obama doubled the national debt again to $ 19,968,154,500,000 and still growing.

    We simply can not AFFORD immigrants sucking up benefits/wages and sending the $$$ out of country. Look up The Local Multiplier Effect (LME) It is a very valuable, hidden feature of our economies. The term refers to how many times dollars are recirculated within a local economy before leaving through the purchase of an import… It has been estimated that about a century ago, thriving industrial communities had a LME in the high 20s or low 30s. Today it’s estimated to be in the single digits. With immigrants it is often shipped out of country. “Across the globe, immigrants sent $583 billion back to their home countries in 2014….” (This is a critical feature of Trump’s plans.)

    Illegal Immigrants send $50 billion Annually But Cost Taxpayers More than $113 Billion “Illegal immigrants in the U.S. send $50 billion in remittances to their home countries each year… The World Bank estimates that number is even higher closer to $120 billion…” which ups the cost to American tax payers to $2.7 billion.

    This is the reality that is hidden from Americans:
    Right Now We Have Longest Soup Lines In History of America, You Just Can’t See Them And much of that ‘soup’ goes down the gullets of illegals. One estimate is a billion and a half a year.

    Then there is Illegal Aliens and the Mortgage Mess

    Our REAL Unemployment, including ‘long term unemployed’ that Bill Clinton tossed into a blackhole is actually around 23-24% Yet immigrants accounted for nearly 17 percent of the workers in the civilian labor force by 2014. (see below)

    So here are the statistics on immigration we should keep in mind before granting any type of amnesty to illegals.
    Frequently Requested Statistics on Immigrants and Immigration in the United States

    In 2014, 1,016,518 foreign nationals became lawful permanent residents. The top five countries of birth for new LPRs in 2014 were Mexico (13 percent), India and China (8 percent each), and the Philippines and Cuba (5 percent each).

    The U.S. immigrant population stood at more than 42.4 million, or 13.3 percent, of the total U.S. population of 318.9 million in 2014, according to ACS data. Between 2013 and 2014, the foreign-born population increased by 1 million, or 2.5 percent.

    Immigrants in the United States and their U.S.-born children now number approximately 81 million people, or 26 percent of the overall U.S. population.

    In 2014, 17.5 million children ages 18 and younger lived with at least one immigrant parent. They accounted for 25 percent of the 69.9 million children under age 18 in the United States.

    Between 1990 and 2000, the number of children ages 17 and under with immigrant parents grew 60 percent, from 8.2 million to 13.1 million. Between 2000 and 2014, the number grew 34 percent from 13.1 million to 17.5 million.

    For first-generation immigrant children (those born outside the United States), population growth was sizeable between 1990 and 2000, increasing 43 percent (from 1.9 million to 2.7 million)

    In 2014, there were 30.3 million children under age 18 living in poor families (i.e., with family incomes below 200 percent of the federal poverty threshold) in the United States. Of them, almost 9.5 million (or 31 percent) were children of immigrants.

    The ACA (Obamacare) has increased health insurance coverage of immigrants—especially noncitizens—at a greater rate than the U.S.-born population. From 2013 to 2014, the immigrant uninsured rate fell from 32 percent to 27 percent, compared to the rate for the native born, which fell from 12 to 9 percent. [Go to an emergency room and you will find it filled with the non-english speaking.]

    Immigrants accounted for nearly 17 percent of the workers in the civilian labor force in 2014. Between 1970 and 2014, the percentage of foreign-born workers in the civilian labor force more than tripled, from 5 percent to 17 percent.

    According to DHS’ Office of Immigration Statistics (OIS), an estimated 11.4 million unauthorized immigrants resided in the United States as of January 2012.

    We keep hearing 11 million illegals and that is complete bull feces. 30 Million Illegal Immigrants in US, Says Mexico’s Former Ambassador

    Not only does Americans lose $$ from the above, Hudson Institute: Marco Rubio, Saul Alinsky and the Gang of Eight set us up for the cost of even more!

    This is an interesting article that explains how American Tax payers got hung with the bills for illegal immigrants’ access to in-state college tuition, preschool, and health benefits. ” Hoyt and ICIRR also supported Islamic groups that were resisting law-enforcement examinations of suspicious Muslim charities, and they worked with others to pass an Illinois law mandating that detainees for immigration violations have access to “religious counseling” (often from radical imams.)”

    Not to mention Tax Payers getting hung with the cost of radicalizing Hispanic immigrants in school via La Raza.

    …the National Council of La Raza succeeded in raking in over $15.2 million in federal grants last year alone, of which $7.9 million was in U.S. Department of Education grants for Charter Schools, and undisclosed amounts were for get-out-the-vote efforts supporting La Raza political positions…

    We are a bronze people with a bronze culture. Before the world, before all of North America, before all our brothers in the bronze continent, we are a nation, we are a union of free pueblos, we are Aztlan. For La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada.”

    That closing two-sentence motto is chilling to everyone who values equal rights for all. It says: “For The Race everything. Outside The Race, nothing.”

  27. Canadian Friend says:

    But Gail! because some of them have a high percentage of caucasian DNA we must take them all in even if this means we all become poor! Don’t you get it? ( /sarcasm )

  28. Canadian Friend says:

    John F. Hultquist,

    yes of course !

    because population predictions is a very exact science, and the UN had correctly predicted that over 40 million Mexicans would invade the USA or that Germany would willingly import close to 2 million muslims and that in England in 2016 the most popular new born name would be Mohamed……

    and anyway 9.22 Billion is so FAR from 10 billion, right?

    what was I thinking? ( /sarcasm )

  29. Gail Combs says:

    Oh, yes I ‘Get it’

    One article pointed out that immigration during my lifetime switched from Europeans who had to support themselves (and were vetted to make sure they could) to 3rd worlders who are USED TO AND ARE COMFORTABLE WITH CORRUPT TOTALITARIAN GOVERNMENTS. This means they do not understand the Constitution, do not WANT the Constitution and will vote democrat as long as the goodies keep coming.

  30. Canadian Friend says: Gail. get with the program!!! you must love love love immigration and the race replacement program imposed on us!!!

    some of those people have 3 % caucasian DNA in them so it does not matter that they like totalitarian corrupt governments, or that they commit 7 times more crimes than people who have more Caucasian DNA, you must welcome them and give them your hard earned tax dollar so that they can replace your kind!

    and don’t you know about magic dirt? the second an immigrant’s toes touch European or North American soil he becomes just like us!!!

    WHich is why muslims the second they set foot in Europe or North America immediately convert to Christiantity and muslim females stop wearing tents over their heads!

    PS; I will probably get banned if I keep being so sarcastic but I am so fed up with the “immigration is good no matter what ” brainwashed zombies who repeat ” immigration is good no matter what” and who pull out of a magician hat silly or false reasons for us to like immigration even though evidence clearly shows diversity is 95% trouble and slowly destroying Western Civilization…Not to mention the financial cost which is now probably close to a trillion dollars. ( the billions we sent to those nations + the billions we have spent trying to integrate and help those immmigrants since roughly 60 years + the billions spent on things such as the NSA or FBI or CIA + the hundrds of millions spent by large companies such as Pepsi or Ford on diversity programs ( that produce so little resutls, it is almost a 100% loss ) = we are surely close to a trillion spent on something that does not work. )

  31. E.M.Smith says:

    @Canadian Friend:

    I got you point, I just don’t care about it….

    I’d be thrilled to have a 1/2 Asian 1/2 Euro-Mutt grandchild. I’d be fine with my great grandkids being quite dark ( as I’ve had way too many sunburns in this latitude / sky clarity). (Why great grandkids? ‘Cause the kids are already committed to partners who are not black, so for the grandkids that’s not an option..)

    Simply put:

    There is nothing particularly “special” about “the white race”.

    Similarly there is nothing particularly “special” about any other races either. Each has some higher or lower concentration of particular genes and their traits, but those early drift into other populations if of benefit. ALL races are mixtures of many different bundles of genes and those bundles have been wandering between populations for a few million years.

    ONE example: My Neanderthal genes. Shared with Asians, go figure…

    The Asians have some Denosovan genes ( likely why they have those interesting eye folds…) but those Denosovan genes are also prevalent in the Aborigines of Australia. Oh, and one of the most interesting girls I ever met had “asian eye folds” but was German / blond. Genes wander… Also met a jet black girl with bright blue eyes (that, unfortunately, she was sensitive about, likely due to teasing growing up). A very striking and beautiful effect, IMHO.

    So for million of years genes have been drifting all over the planet. Now, with jets and global travel you think geography is going to able to stop that? Just silly.

    Though you didn’t raise the issue directly: Swamping of recessive traits and the extinction of types. That is often used as an excuse for keeping dark genes out of the white pool. Well my family is already part of such a group. Red Hair Gene is highly recessive, even to blonds with normal melanin (it is a different kind of melanin where blond is how much melanin). As of now Redheads are small single percentage of the global population and dropping toward “extinction” level as a type. Yet those red-head genes are still wandering around. Thus my daughter has beautiful red hair despite my wife and I both having brown / blond hair. (Grandparents on both sides with red hair…). So blending out a recessive gene from the phenotypes does NOT remove it from the genotypes and it does resurface as random gene mixing brings two copies together.

    So there will not be an “extinction” of redheads. They will continue to pop up from time to time. Just like my Grandmother had the “Owl Eye” eye socket shape of Neanderthals and i’ve got their poor ability to rotate the upper body and throw, but can grapple and grip really well (and have a larger brain case like they did- large hat size an occasional issue…) Neanderthals didn’t go extinct, in fact their skull gene is slowly coming to dominate much of the globe. Each gene moves and is selected for benefits individually… So trying to preserve a particular package of genes is fighting against nature’s way.

    FWIW the rate of selection for a given trait has a known relationship to selective pressure. For skin color it is a two fold pressure. At the equator, pressure is from skin cancer. Darker skin protects more so is a survival advantage. At the high latitudes of the poles, rickets and Vit-D shortage is the selective pressure and white skin benefits (or under clouds – translucent skin and the Redhead Gene is ideal). Turns out the pressures are about the same degree. The timing ends up at 25,000 years for complete effect. What this means is that if you put a tribe of jet blacks in Alaska, in 25,000 years (even with no out mixing) their progeny will be white. Similarly, 25,000 years from now all the White Europeans in Australia will be as black as the Aborigines.

    Oh, and at 10,000 years they will have made considerable progress toward that status. It isn’t exactly linear as the pressure drops with increasing levels of the needed traits. Even 30 generations of strong pressure gives big results. That’s 900 years for people. Now if you have ingression of desired (in the genetic fitness sense) genes,the process can run much faster.

    So, you see, in not too much time, and black folks who move to Sweden will have blond white tribal traits, and any whiles moving toward the equator will become a black tribe. Even without any genetic mixing, but faster with it (and since nobody can keep their trousers zipped, there is a lot of genetic mixing).

    In short “racial purity” is a fools errand. It never has existed, and it never will exist. We find genes from all races all over the planet in all sorts of populations. Recessive traits are not extinguished by genetic flooding with dominant traits, they just tunnel through them to resurface in later crosses.

    Oh, there is one bit of argument that would support your concern: Both the neanderthal brain case gene and the redhead gene show evidence of promoting greater intelligence (by different methods). So over time both ought to be of advantage. We see that in the neanderthal brain case diffusion. The jury is still out on how the M1CR redhead gene will fair… since it also causes transparent skin and higher skin cancer rates, there is negative pressure on it as you approach the equator (or even leave cloud dominated Europe areas). To the extent they are swamped by other genes in a given population (via ingress and dilution of racial stock) the natural selective pressures get a timing reset. Basically, you can lose a few hundred years off the nature driven time line. (But in the end, natural selection wins…) So one might make the case that a given genetic swamping was dilutive of a given trend.

    OTOH, given the outcrossing going on in the world, the gene stocks are being widely distributed over the whole planet and that just gives a wider field to selective pressure for the best genes to win AND gives far more opportunities for the best combination of genes to form. That hybrid vigor. Take a look at the black population in America and you can see that effect clearly. Any football team as a load of linemen with the European / Neanderthal influenced “stocky build” and the African 10% more dense bones with greater musculature. Formidable. Yet basketball is dominated by the long African legs and speed coupled with long European arms and heavier musculature and more. “White men can’t jump” is true as we have poor butt muscles. Mix some African with European, though, and you can get great basketball players… African butts and European arms / shoulders.

    Where you see some kind of threat, I see opportunities.

    Nature sees them too.

  32. A C Osborn says:

    Interesting development in the Canadian Mosque shooting in the UK press.
    As it now appears to be a Muslim on Muslim shooting the Daily Mail has deleted thousands of comments on their article about the shooting.
    Why would they do that?

  33. Canadian Friend says:

    There is nothing particularly “special” about “the white race”?

    then tell me why 99.9% of non white immigrants want to come live in white nations?

    why does the rest of the world want to come live in white nations?

    Syrian refugees do not run to Africa or El Salvador do they?

    white liberals who hate their own civilization do not move to Africa or Afghanistan either.

    yup nothing special about us that billions are willing to risk their life for a chance to come live in what we – whites – have created ; the best and most advanced civilization in the history of planet earth.

  34. E.M.Smith says:

    @A.C. Osborn:

    Because it doesn’t fit the narrative of “Muslims are oppressed” and “Christians are the oppressor”…

  35. Canadian Friend says:

    Why would they delete so many comments?

    because too many people were pointing out that immigration is nothing but trouble.

    and that we are freakin fed up of being called racists for simply pointing out facts and figures.

  36. Canadian Friend says:

    nothing special about the white race?

    it is not like we invented

    the printing press
    the telescope
    the microscope
    the steam engine
    the internal combustion engine
    the airplane
    the helicopter
    the jet engine
    the rocket engine
    the telephone
    the radar
    the GPS global positioning system
    better ways of producing food ( to also feed non whites)
    medications and antibiotics ( to also cure non-whites )
    understanding diseases ( that also benefits non-whites)
    the discovery and understanding of DNA
    trucks, boats etc etc ( that also help bring aid to poor non white nations )
    water sanitation ( that non-whites benefot from as well )
    or the guitar, the saxophone and the piano (so that black people could “””invent”””” blues and jazz)
    or recording devices ( so that we could save recordings of performance by those non whites )
    or the discovery of electricity of of all its rules ( which benefits non-whites as well)
    or solar panels that produce electricity ( non-whites benefit from that too )

    really I can not see anything special about whites even though this a SHORT list of what they have done that no one else has even come close to doing.

  37. Canadian Friend – maybe I can add something here since I am an immigrant. I moved from the UK to France in order to get better weather and lower living costs, and I like the French and their way of life. I’m not however a Catholic, so don’t fully fit in, and as soon as I open my mouth people realise I’m English (it’s the bad teeth…).

    The majority of the Syrian emigrants actually stay pretty close, and Lebanon has taken a massive number of them. They would like to move back just as soon as it’s possible. Still, they look at the life in the camps and they have heard of the better way of life in Europe, so it’s unsurprising that a number will want to escape the camps and improve their lives. If my country had been torn apart by people fighting over religion and oil, I’d probably do the same.

    Back in the days of Dick Whittington, it was said that the streets of London were paved with gold. People who went there to see this marvel found that it was just the way the sun glinted off the urine-soaked streets…. In the same way, the Syrians would likely have a rose-coloured impression of life in the West, and of course it doesn’t have those people wanting to chop your heads off if you’re not as religious as they think you should be.

    I don’t try to insult people by calling them a liberal. The policies that are covered by that label would actually work if everyone stuck to them, but the problem is that there are enough Evil Bastards that most systems that rely on people taking no more than they need (and working to their maximum ability to support others) fall over pretty quickly. After all, that’s why we have courts, punishments and prisons – for the ones who get found out.

    For immigrants who moved because they liked the culture, I don’t see a problem, and that’s naturally a fairly low rate. Maybe a short-term drag until they’ve got their lives sorted out, but a longer-term benefit. The difficulty is when people bring their problems with them, or when the rate of influx is too much for the local system to deal with. The rate of immigration is after all the big reason for Brexit. There’s a certain rate of change that is acceptable, and if you exceed that then there will be problems – and scapegoats will be found.

    Living in colder countries means you have to have better technology to survive. In a warm and wet country there’s not the same drive, since food grows more easily. Arid countries have natural limits on the size of communities, so you’re not going to get the specialist trades that technology depends on. Although the Arabs invented the concept of zero, and were good astronomers and thinkers, there was no need to push things too far. That’s really why the white races ended up with the technology, as I see it, since there was the right combination of ease and difficulty of living in the temperate zones. Communities were large enough to support specialist technology, and there was enough wealth that people could buy it.

    I thus see the dominance of white people as following on from the conditions. These days, when students come from all over the world, a top student could be black or white. As it happens, though, they’d most likely be Asian – look at the names on the important scientific papers these days. Their culture after all does encourage people to spend a lot of time on study, far more than the US or European culture does. In England, being too bright and knowing the answers is a social disaster (I have the tee-shirt). Until something needs fixing, of course.

    Among those Syrian emigrants are doctors, lawyers, and many trades. There will probably be some Jihadists, too (I’ve read that 5 of the 8 Paris attackers came in as refugees). It’s a tricky problem to sort out which of them will be good people to have, and it’s still going to be a problem if there are too many at once and they don’t integrate well. I expect a lot would try to hold on to their own culture, since they didn’t leave their home willingly but because staying meant death.

    White supremacy is probably simply because that white person had better technology and could overwhelm the others. It looks unlikely to be anything to do with raw intelligence or other innate superiority. What we do need to preserve is the culture that led to that excellence, and that may be a difficult task. Still, after all the Indian immigration, you can probably get a better curry in the UK than in India. Assimilate what is good, and try to reject the bits that are bad.

  38. cdquarles says:

    There is only one race, and it is human. There are three subtype phenotypes. We are all mutts to a greater or lesser degree. Lots of ‘black’ folk in the USA are ‘black’ from the one-drop rule during Jim Crow. Now-a-days, we ‘self-identify’.

  39. Larry Ledwick says:

    @Simon Derricutt

    Although the Arabs invented the concept of zero, and were good astronomers and thinkers, there was no need to push things too far.

    Actually there is considerable doubt about that, it is probably a merged concept from several civilizations. The Hindus (who were devastated by the Muslim invasion) also had a zero concept and were likely the source of the concept to the middle eastern cultures as back prior to about 600 CE the Hindus were a very advanced culture. The Arabs did not do much with math given that most folks were still counting sheep using a knotted rope. Aside from their application to astronomy they did very little with technology with a couple minor exceptions like steel making for swords.

    The assertion that the Arabs were great mathematicians is a little thin in my estimation, they were acquisitors ( collectors of ideas ), they studied them, but did very little with them and did not apply them to produce a vibrant productive society. The knowledge that they acquired that helped jump start Europe out of the dark ages was plunder from their conquests and destruction of other civilizations, raids on the silk road and piracy at sea. The singular achievement of the Arabs was to freeze progress or at least slow it to a crawl and to destroy other productive cultures for about 700 years.

  40. Canadian Friend says:

    People who lived in warm climates – say Africa – still needed to find cures for diseases, or how to fix broken bones, or how to transport the wounded quickly, yet they made about zero advances in health and medecine, and they never came up with the wheel…

    When we found Africans in Africa they still had not figured out the wheel.

    if it is too hot to walk under the sun why did they not come up with the wheel??

    they still needed glasses for those with bad eyesight, they needed water more than anyone yet never came up with plumbing or any efficient way to transport water ( like the wheel and a cart)

    They never came up with a written language, they have no paper, no books, no printing press, no written history, those things have nothing to do with cold weathers or warm weather.

    I could go on all day with such examples

    It is not cold weather and snow storms that made us want to understand the human body or the planets or save our thoughts on paper or go to the moon or build microscopes.

    The theory that whites were simply lucky that cold weather made them do all that was invented so that non-whites would feel better about themselves and to discredit whites.

    It reached its peak when Jared Diamond published is book ( can’t remember the title…germs and steel ? ) in which he discredits whites at every pages and says we were simply lucky as if scientific inventions and scientific explanations ( for things such as thunder or germ transmission ) just fell on our lap.

    Cold weather in only a very tiny factor that ” helped” whites.

  41. Larry – at times this blog is like QI, where things you’ve been taught a long time back have been shown to be wrong and you didn’t notice. Thanks for the update, and I’ll learn the newer research. The Arab’s lack of progress may be due to their attitude that all an educated person needed to know was the Koran.

    Canadian Friend – considering just how much trade happened between countries in the last few millennia, I’d prefer CDQ’s assertion. We’re all mutts. Back in Elizabethan times there were negroes documented in the UK, and it’s unlikely they kept their trousers zipped up. As such, both you and I are almost certain to have some non-white heritage. I’d thus look to the location and the culture as the reason we see so many British-heritage names on the inventors listings. I may be a bit biased there…. In future, though, it does look like we’ll be seeing a lot more Asian names on the giant leaps.

    I find it very difficult to put a hard line between “white” and “non-white” anyway. Would Galileo qualify as “white” even with the typical olive skin? How about the various Indian physicists and mathematicians? How about the Israelis? Then again, unless they were in typical clothing I couldn’t tell a Jew from an Arab. I think we’re thus down to culture as the main reason for the different rates of advance in the last few centuries, with the latitude (and thus climate) probably having an effect itself as well as making such lands attractive to immigrants (good farmland) and thus leading to hybrid vigour.

    There is a lot of investment (relatively) in Africa for education now. We’ll find out later on as to whether the education will change their culture and make them as inventive as “whites”. It will however take a few generations. Not so much teaching them how to fish but to be able to work out how to fish for themselves. Judging by my experience there’s a lot of currently-untapped brainpower that is kept back by the culture they grow up in.

    Racial purity is unattainable. If it’s turned backwards and people celebrate “non-whites” then that’s just as stupid.

  42. Gail Combs says:

    Well the Mexico situation is heating up.

    Mexicans replace American flag with Mexican flag at Maywood California post office.

    This film was made in 2008 and it clearly shows Mexicans openly declaring war on our own streets.

    Jorge Castaneda was a member of the Mexican Communist Party. In 1988 he advised Vicente Fox during his presidential campaign in 2000. After winning the election, Fox appointed Castañeda as his Secretary of Foreign Affairs. Castaneda is still a close advisor to Vincent Fox AND is Professor of Politics and Latin American and Caribbean Studies, New York University.

    AN ACT OF WAR???
    If this loudmouth doesn’t represent Mexico, then I expect Mexican leaders to slap him down in a hurry. If not I’ll have to assume they agree with him, thereby confirming what everyone already knew. The Mexican economy is built on drug money and the cartels run Mexico.

    In a stunning segment on Fareed Zakaria’s CNN broadcast today Mexico’s former foreign minister, Jorge Castaneda, states the Mexican government is willing to counter U.S. President Donald Trump policy by unleashing drug cartels upon the U.S. border…

    Castaneda not only threatens to send drugs, he also threatens to flood the United States will illegal South Americans and openly admits Mexico could stop the border crossings if it wanted to, but instead chooses to use immigration as a weapon against the United States.

    He openly states Mexico should use Central American immigration as a weapon against us [Mexico can use Central-American immigration as bargaining chip with Trump, Univision, December 8, 2016]:

    There has been a surge in Central American immigrants heading for the United States since Donald Trump won the Election in November, according to several initial reports… If this is the case, it is only logical. Trump has vowed to build his wall. It does not matter if Mexico will pay for it or even if the threat is true. It makes perfect sense for anybody hoping to make it to the United States, from Salvador, Honduras or Guatemala, to do so before any wall is put up….If they have relatives in the United States, or if they think that their reception will be better with President Barack Obama still in power until January 20, then their decision is perfectly rational.


    Video of Jorge Castaneda’s threats.

    The US government gave $75 million of our taxpayer money to help Mexico build their southern border wall.

    Fat lot of good it did. Mexico gives temporary passes to illegals headed for the US border.

    This is all about drug MONEY.

    An analysis of recent surveys and research studies places the size of the illegal U.S. drug market at $200 billion to $750 billion per year, with most estimates coming in between $400 billion and $500 billion.

    The vast majority of that amount is coming through the land border with Mexico. When you count the cost for the USA of putting and maintaining criminals in prison,( I read it costs about $40,000 per person per year) and the cost of rehabilitation of addicts and the cost of welfare of drug addicts…. The economic costs are probably over a trillion per year. 20 billions sounds like a peanut compare to this.

    The last Chinese dynasty fell because of the widespread opium addiction from the British selling opium to Chinese. Remember the Opium Wars??
    The Chinese still hate the English (and the USA) because of this.

    And another threat this time from a Mexican Senator: Mexican Senator Threatens To Stop Fighting Terrorism If Trump Builds Wall Which is a complete laugh given the Drug Cartels help ISIS cross the border to scope out targets in the USA. (See Judicial Watch: Cartels Help Terrorists in Mexico Get to U.S. to Explore Targets; ISIS Militant Shaykh Mahmood Omar Khabir Among Them )

    Nt that the Progressives give a crap about containing the Mexican cartels.
    “Obama Commutes Life Sentences of Four Mexican Cartel Leaders” by ILDEFONSO ORTIZ

    19 Jan 2017 Four family members who ran one of the largest cartel smuggling operations in south Texas had their life in prison sentences commuted and will likely be returning to this border city [Roma, TX] from where they ran their criminal empire. One of the main destinations that the criminal organizations delivered drugs to was Chicago, Illinois….

    Now we know why The Chicago mayor is NOT interested in stopping the gun wars and has declared Chicago a sanctuary city. Mustn’t interfere with the Drug runners.

    A couple of interesting comments:

    I lived in Mexico including the border. I used to drink beer with the guys doing the runs at night. They are often escorted by Mex military on expensive loads or VIP illegals. There are places where you can lay in the brush and watch a convoy of 3 4wheel drive trucks slash through the fence area with the black Mex military vehicles…….Drop the loads and run back……..Every night…….The profits are trickle down economics and many are part of the cartels networks…..They are extremely violent and run most prisons in the US…….Like ISIS they will chop you up and yes they have a long reach………..This guy talking was one of them……….Mexico officially is a narco state run by gangs and mafias….They have a very long reach and can cause extreme pain to those against them…So buckle up and get ready………..

    currently they outgun the BP..They own our territory 30 miles in and they own the high ground…Snipers and advanced electronics everywhere as they run loads from up high. You need more than to expose the BP guys to this they need backup of trained military people. Your talkin billions a year here no on will give that up Freddy

    This jives with what I have heard from others.

    Illegal aliens generally do NOT want U.S. citizenship. Americans are very vain thinking that everybody in the world wants to be a U.S. citizen. Mexicans want to remain citizens of their home country while obtaining the benefits offered by the United States such as employment, medical care, in-state tuition, government subsidized housing and free education for their offspring. Their main attraction is employment and their loyalty usually remains at home. They want benefits earned and subsidized by middle class Americans. What illegal aliens want are benefits of American residence without paying the price.

    Mexico is NOT a friend of the United States. Since 1848 Mexicans have resented the United States. During World War I, Mexico allowed German spies to operate freely in Mexico to spy on the U.S.. During World War II, Mexico allowed the Axis powers to spy on the U.S. from Mexico. During the Cold War Mexico allowed spies hostile to the U.S. to operate freely. The attack on the Twin Towers in 2001 was cheered and applauded all across Mexico. Today, Mexican school children are taught that the U.S. stole California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas. If you don’t believe it, check out some Mexican textbooks written for their schoolchildren.

    – David J. Stoddard, 27 year veteran of the Border Patrol

  43. Gail Combs says:

    Simon Derricutt says “For immigrants who moved because they liked the culture, I don’t see a problem,…. The difficulty is when people bring their problems with them, or when the rate of influx is too much for the local system to deal with.”

    That is the key and why I said we in the USA needed to stop immigration for a generation (30 years) This is to allow those here to ‘become Americans’ When a quarter or more of your population are NOT NATIVE then you are looking at a big problem if you keep adding more and more people.

    How To Destroy America: A Speech By Governor Lamm does a really good job of explaining the problem.

    I have zero problem with immigration IF it is controlled
    IF the immigrants are NOT eligible for any type of assistance except school for their kids.
    If English is REQUIRED
    IF they do not try to change the USA into THEIR type of Culture. AKA sedition.

    At present none of those conditions are met by many coming to the USA and I for one am darn sick and tired of being EXPECTED to kow tow and lick the boots of someone invited into my house or worse someone who broke into my house.

  44. Canadian Friend says:

    I agree with Gail 100 %.

  45. Gail Combs says:

    Canadian Friend brought up the subject of IQ/abilities of the different human sub types. I think a discussion of the topic is long over due WITHOUT the Political Correctness garbage getting in the way.

    Very UnPC
    The Bell Curve: IQ, Race and Gender | Charles Murray and Stefan Molyneux – YouTube

    I think you have several factors at play.
    First, if there is no snow then you do not have to think ahead about storing food for winter. Glaciation seems to have been responsible for kicking human brain size up on a number of occasions.
    “…During the NHG we had evolved crude stone tools with our more plentiful grey matter.
    The Stone Age had begun, and with it a prolonged cooling trend in East Africa, both of which
    are believed to be responsible for rapid evolutionary changes among the hominids stirring around
    in those times…”
    All five parts linked HERE

    Also brain size is ‘expensive’ and if you do not use it you lose it. For example modern koala has a skull that is filled with 40% cerebrospinal fluid implying that early ancestors had a much larger brain. Over the past 20,000 years, the average volume of the human male brain has decreased from 1,500 cubic centimeters to 1,350 cc, and the first evidence of farming in Mideast [was] 23,000 years ago From the point of view of evolution farming has not been good for smartening humans up. More ‘also rans’ could grow up to breed thanks to a steadier food supply that didn’t run off. On the other hand it allowed the excess time needed for inventing.

    Then there is hybrid vigour. Europeans mixed with Neanderthal and Asians with Denisovan while Africans are ‘pure homo sapien’ Human diversity is largest in Africa which would suggest isolation of populations (inbreeding) over long periods.

    This map shows the proportion of the genome inferred to be Denisovan in ancestry in diverse non-Africans. The color scale is not linear to allow saturation of the high Denisova proportions in Oceania (bright red) and better visualization of the peak of Denisova proportion in South Asia.
    Credit: Sankararaman et al./Current Biology 2016

    Finally there is nutrition. Sabertoothed put up the video. I think it was this one:
    Suggesting insufficient iodine could lower IQ by as much as 20 points. There is also this
    Role of red meat in the diet for children and adolescents again suggesting poor nutrition will not only stunt physical growth but also mental growth.

    My point of view is that PC tries to squash us all into the same mold instead of allowing people to play to their strengths. Me? I have zero rhythm and couldn’t carry a tune in a paper bag so even though I have a three octave range, don’t ask me to sing. Musical IQ =25….

  46. E.M.Smith says:

    @Canadian Friend:

    Viewing world history through the lens of race is a very warped window. I’m not interested in either “race baiting” nor in “race trolling”, so hopefully this infatuation will be short lived.

    Just a FEW of the issues:

    1) ALL abilities are on a bell curve, even if the top of the curve is one standard deviation displaced (either way) for one race vs others: There are still millions in that race at the ends of the bell curves. (For all races and all curves). A meritocracy will sort them much better than a skin tone test…

    2) There is no “white race”. There are several dozen “white races”. They are vastly different in their skills and native abilities. Slavs, Germans, Celts, Greeks, Albanians, Arabs, Jews, Berbers, Basque, Ainu, etc. etc. All very different genetically. Then there are the million and one crosses. The Japanese considered the Ainu horridly backwards and inferior people, BTW. “Where you stand on an issue depends on where you sit”.

    3) Nutrition and environment can counter much (most? maybe even all…) racial genetic advantage. Poor Blacks starved as young slaves were likely about 20 IQ points below their potential just from that. China has mandated Iodine in salt and figures they will raise the average I.Q. by 10 full points from Iodine alone. (Now consider England and Germany eating a lot of ocean fish and getting lots of Iodine, just like the Japanese…)

    4) My Irish Ancestors were similarly racially profiled as slothful and stupid. Millions died due to my English Ancestors shipping food from Ireland back to England during the potato famine since the dumb Irish were “inferior” anyway. Now compare the great nation of the USA largely built by those Irish and look at the Irish who made large contributions here. Social context means a LOT.

    5) The arrow of history has had a very asymmetrical flight. The first culture to start on a technological run rapidly comes to dominate the adjoining people. It does not matter what race they are. First out the gate wins. At least until their empire stage collapses back into ruin. Chin and Japan were early out and beat Europeans by a long shot. Then collapsed. Greece and Rome were late comers, but then rose to dominance until their respective collapses. Egypt was very early and did a couple of rise / fall cycles. Each and every one of them knew they were the superior race. Then along comes the age of machines. Rises out of the Renaissance when England and pretty much all of Western Europe was more backward than anywhere in Africa now. WHY did they “win the race”? There are whole books written on it, but it has little to do with race and a whole lot to do with a new economic system of relative freedom. So which race is superior? Chinese? Egyptian? Japanese? Roman? Greeks? They ALL were vastly superior at one time… (Similarly the Persians – now Iranians – and the great Indian Empires, both in India and in South America). Europeans just happened to take a turn on that wheel right as a global technology arrived (large sailing ships with cannon) and the neighborhood they could dominate was global.

    6) Once economically dominant, a culture can maintain that perch long after they have decayed into an inferior culture. It’s one of the great constants of history.

    7) Actual talent is of little importance to maintenance of a dominant empire. Political manipulation and economic domination matter most.

    8) Europeans and the Americans have understood #7 very well and practice it hard.

    9) The great accomplishments of the “white culture” you laud where in many cases created by non-whites. Here in silicon valley it is especially clear. All sorts of folks are on the patent filings. My group got 4. We were a polyglot group too. One of my team was 2nd generation Japanese. Another Hispanic. So it goes. The Greeks and Romans hauled in slaves from all over Europe, North Africa, Asia and beyond. In many cases those slaves were the source of the greatness of the “white” empire.

    10) History is even more so a story of non-whites. Our “Arabic Numbers” come from those dark folks in India. Our algebra from the Arabs burned brown in the desert. China added paper, gunpowder (that let Europeans take over the world… being more greedy and bloodthirsty and seeing it weapon more than entertainment), noodles and more. George Washington Carver, a black man, created plastics from soybeans and worked closely with Ford (Sr.) on many car part enhancements (along with a few hundred other inventions… ever fry in peanut oil? Thank him.) It pays to look at WHO not just at what culture…

    I’m going to end it here as I could go one for another dozen items. But it’s pretty clear when you look at deep history that Europeans were living in hovels and were illiterate stupid dirty and worse; while China was wearing silks and India was doing astronomy and inventing number systems we later borrowed. Egypt didn’t even think us worth bothering about when they ruled the best parts of the planet (then). It is incredible chutzpah to think that there was a genetic advantage but it was somehow dormant. (BTW, most of the really cool physics was done by Jews, including the atom bomb. So an African / middle eastern Semitic people). We are not better, we just won the timing lottery by mating a set of cannon to ships at the time the world was warming and North Africa dried out while Europe got better weather. If anything was our advantage, it was our sheer willingness to slaughter our way across the planet to domination. That doesn’t take much brains…

  47. Canadian Friend says:

    3) Nutrition and environment can counter much (most? maybe even all…) racial genetic advantage. Poor Blacks starved as young slaves were likely about 20 IQ points below their potential just from that.

    According to the best science we have, whites have been around for roughly 40 or 50 thousand years while blacks have been around for at least 150 thousand years, yet in all that time blacks never could figure a way to feed themselves better, carry water better, find cures for diseases, develop a written language, discover the wheel.

    had Europeans never traveled to Africa blacks still would not have any of those things.

    and no pianos and no guitars to sing blues and jazz songs, they would be banging drums naked and living in mud huts.

    These are the facts.

    they are unpleasant, but these are the facts.

    Who kept blacks from finding ways to better nourish themselves?
    who kept them from leaving Africa and moving to better pastures?
    who kept them in 150,000 years to discover or invent even one tenth of what whites did in 50,000 years?

    NO ONE.

    stop making up excuses

    face reality.

    reality is unpleasant, it makes you uncomfortable but it is what it is.

    you are trying to make me admit that 2 + 2 = 4.37 or 2+2 = 3.98

    sorry but 2+2 = 4

    150,000 years, 150,000 years !!!

    they had a 100,000 year advantage over us, they had a 100,000 year headstart yet invented nothing


    no romanticizing and/or complex and convoluted explanation will change that

  48. p.g.sharrow says:

    CF asks, Why African blacks made little in the way of advancement in 150,000 years?
    Why should they? they were perfectly adjusted for their environment. Both their “toolkit” and social systems fit their needs for the environment they lived in. Those that moved to the marginal climes in the far North had to continuously adapt to changing conditions. Re-invent your “toolkit” and social structure as needed or die!. The leading edge of civilization belongs to the inventors and those that utilize new things.

    The World Wide Web, the net that covers the world, and the computer systems that it rides in is the most wondrous “New Tool” that humans have ever invented! A creation that has required the imputed intelligence and effort of a vast amount of the worlds population.
    An entirely new paradigm of human organization is now under creation. What will result when every human on the planet can communicate in real time and in their own language with every other human? A New Age indeed!…pg

  49. E.M.Smith says:

    The Europeans of 5000 years ago were substantially the same as the Africans in terms of technology and ability. They have also been around for at least 45,000 years as Cro-Magnons (some reasonable arguments have them being around longer, like 100,000) and with a larger brain case than moderns, too. So why did we not do any of those interesting technical advancements for 40,000 years? Eh? It certainly wasn’t genetic or raw ability.

    See, that’s the problem with your silly racist argument. It breaks on the reality of deep history.

    The particulars of location and context and how that shapes a culture matters far more than the genetics of race.

    The South American Indians founded the first ever major city. That’s ever, as in before EVERYONE else.

    MUCH later, the Maya created buildings as good as any in Egypt. Their calendar is more precise than ours.

    The Andes are crossed by roads as good as any Roman road from the empire there.

    The Asians had culture and writing (and even block printing, so sorry, they invented the printing press, we just mechanized it more and claimed credit) long before Europeans. Oh, and they used rockets in war long before Europeans knew what they were. So no, whites did not invent the rocket.

    In Africa, the Nok culture created iron in at least 500 BC and maybe as early as 1000 BC
    and they practiced aggro-forestry.

    In short, your claims are more myopia than reality.

    Please drop your racist advocacy on this site.
    I find it tiresome, offensive and a bit stupid.

    You would benefit from a LOT more knowledge about history and the way cultures grow, live, thrive, then die. It is far more due to corrupt Evil Political Bastards than to any racial failings or advantage.

  50. Canadian Friend says:

    when someone calls me a racist I know they lost the argument

    when they call me stupid I know it is because I have demolished too many of their arguments that they believe made them so intelligent in the eyes of other readers.

    I will not waste my time with small minded people anymore such as you.

    Go back to your imaginary world.

    You make science go backwards.

  51. E.M.Smith says:

    @Canadian Friend:

    Good bye and good luck to you.

    Take what solace you need from wherever makes you happy.

    My issue with your POV is simple: It is offensive and shallow and I just don’t want it cluttering up my site. You have demolished nothing and you have won nothing, but if it makes you happy to think that, go right ahead.

    Do note, though, that I never called YOU stupid. I don’t know that. I called your arguments stupid. Insults “to the person” are not something I allow here. Nor, it would seem, insults “to the people” as large collective types…

    Grace, manners, politeness. These things are not “small minded” nor are they imaginary. They are the things a pleasant society is made from…

  52. p.g.sharrow says:

    Most people don’t seem to understand how few are actually involved in invention. Early man was so few and dispersed there was very little cross-pollination and adaption of new ideas. New and better ways of doing something often died with the inventor.or the die-off of his family. It takes hundreds of births to yield one real genius and that genius might spend a lifetime and not encounter another. knowledge was hoarded and kept secret from others because of the survival advantage it might give. Just think of the utilization of metals! The native metals found on or in the ground could yield themselves to the natural progression of bit by bit invention in their working. But Iron, That was FM!.take brittle heavy black rocks heat them in your hottest fire until they are bright yellow and then hammer a bit, reheat and hammer, do it again and again and the brittle stone turns into a taffy like consistency that upon cooling is a tough grey metal, black magic for sure, and not easy to copy. a technique still used today in Africa. BlackSmiths likely existed a very long time before the age of Iron began. That would take the ability to smelt the metal in volume in the white heat of a blast furnace, another invention out of the pottery industry. Our solid state electronics industry has required vast Armies of skilled people in it’s creation, something that could only be created from a general population of billions…pg

  53. pg – that’s maybe the big thing about the internet now. It enables people to find like-minded people to have discussions with across large distances and time-zones. I’m discussing some interesting ideas with friends in Australia, the Philippines, various USA locations, and the UK, and this should result in something really useful this year. The catchment area is so much larger.

    It’s also interesting that, with the nom-de-plumes on the net, I don’t necessarily know the sex or race of people I’m having a discussion with. It’s not even relevant, and what matters is whether the ideas are useful or not. Over the years people drop clues now and again, so a gradual picture builds up, but after a few years of learning to trust someone’s opinions I wouldn’t decide to reject them if I found out they didn’t conform to the picture I’d produced.

    If we’re settling on culture as the reason for advances in technology, then the internet culture looks like being the best enabler for even more rapid advances.

  54. Gail Combs says:

    Funny as heck…

    Trump set-up the Media,… AGAIN!

    Remember the recent E.O. that had the Progressive bedwetters in a tizzy protesting at airports?

    President Trump Releases Statement – U.S. Media Officially Twisted Like Pretzels…
    Well, it would appear Don McGahn and Don Trump have indeed played the media, left-wing moonbats and the unintelligent GOPe like a Stradivarius. With bait firmly taken, the trap snaps shut.

    Here’s the statement from the White House….
    Against the reality of President Trump 2017 simply following an almost identical refugee pause process as President Obama in 2011, the media are twisting like pretzels to reconcile how Trump is bad, but Obama is good.

    ♦ President Obama puts six month ban on Iraqi refugees in 2011 and media…. crickets.
    ♦ President Trump puts 120 day suspension on Syrian refugees 2017… media explodes.

    ♦ Obama selects 7 countries for enhanced visa security policy and media… crickets.
    ♦ Trump uses Obama law, same Obama DHS policy, and same 7 countries; for a 90-day visa suspension and media explodes.

    This simply cannot be accidental, and given the release from the White House it most certainly looks like the media was set up to create a crisis where no crisis existed….

    And while the Yellow Stream Urinalists make fools of themselves chasing the stick Trump tossed them, Stunning Win – Saudi King Salman Agrees to Support/Finance Safe Zones In Syria and Yemen…

    The Progressive Politicians also took the bait with Sally refusing to defend the E.O. as is her duty.
    Trump Fires Acting Attorney General Yates For “Betrayal”

    The Democrats of course issue the usual spin, while President Trump names Dana Boente as Acting Attorney General

    And in other news, even more Progressive temper tantrums about immigration…

    Bill Mitchell tweets

    Read that California is looking into withholding taxes due the Feds in response to Trump cutting of Sanctuary Cities. Lol, go ahead fools.

    California Democrats Threaten to Stop Paying Federal Taxes

    Any illusion I had that Democrats/Progressives were sane adults OR ACTUAL AMERICANS has been removed completely over this last year.

    Do you think President Trump can induce Adrenal Fatigue in the Pussyfied Progressives by the Fourth of July?

  55. Gail Combs says:

    p.g.sharrow says: 31 January 2017 at 5:19 am

    EXACTLY! And you are correct about the internet.

    If the Globalists had left well enough alone I think humans, via the internet, would have eventually integrated. After all we (Hubby and I) hold conversations with people in Africa, Russia, Europe, Japan, Australia, New Zealand and even China. The problem is NOT integration the problem is POWER and CONTROL. People sense it and are now pushing back.

    And, yes E.M. I have always thought nutrition played a large part along with environment. Humans are very adaptive as individuals and as a species. However everyone would be a heck of a lot happier if the Progressives (and far right) would quit trying to push people into boxes.

    I have several friends who rate very high on the ‘mechanical ability’ IQ but could barely get out of high school. Doesn’t mean they are ‘dumb’ just means they need to play to their strengths. Progressives pushing the ‘College for everyone’ bandwagon leaves these individuals feeling ‘inferior’ and ultimately failing. I have helped local kids realize they should go to technical schools not college and they have come back and thanked me for giving them a ‘clue’

  56. philjourdan says:

    @H.R. & E.M.

    @E.M. who wrote, “So another of my ideas stolen by someone else before I had it! The nerve!”

    Yes! I’m always surprised how often that happens to me. There ought’a be a law… ;o)

    think of it this way – great minds think alike!

  57. p.g.sharrow says:

    Hell guys, I’m always amazed when after I broach a concept it is picked by others and used as their own sometime later. :-) fine with me!

    It is much easier to effect change if you don’t care who takes the credit…pg

  58. Larry Ledwick says:

    @Gail Combs says:
    31 January 2017 at 12:37 pm

    Any illusion I had that Democrats/Progressives were sane adults OR ACTUAL AMERICANS has been removed completely over this last year.

    Do you think President Trump can induce Adrenal Fatigue in the Pussyfied Progressives by the Fourth of July?

    Apparently they are also doubting their sanity.

  59. Larry Ledwick says:

    The web remembers when Democrats fought to keep Vietnamese refugees out of the US, even small children.

  60. Larry Ledwick says:

    On the assertion that no terrorists have come from the countries who have had immigration halted for 90 days, there have been at least 17 who have been linked to terrorism from those countries.

  61. philjourdan says:

    Chiefio is correct. The “white” race did not invent those things. Western society did (and some of the inventors were not “white”). Race is determined by adaptation to environment as Chiefio indicated. But Society is responsible for innovation and invention. A totalitarian society where the individual serves the state has less innovation than one where the individual has ownership of their lives. It is the advent of that freedom that led to the explosion in inventions. George Washington Carver was not white, yet he came out with many inventions because the society (even for a black man in a post civil war society) encouraged it.

    One last interjection. Innovation does not come from contentment. It comes from stress and strife. The old adage about weapon advancement during times of war is not because of race. It is because of necessity. Heating systems did not arise because the temperature was ideal for humans, it arose because humans were in places not conducive for survival without it. Colder climates are not normal environments for humans. So they adapt, invent, overcome. Warmer climates do not have those issues, so those humans are not pushed to adapt and invent.

    But warmer climates do have one pit fall, and that is competition, especially from poisonous species. So some humans who would not know what a MRI machine was, know more about what herbs, berries and animals can cure a malady than their cousins in environments without the cornucopia of compounds.

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