W.O.O.D. – 15 Sept 2017

This is another of the W.O.O.D. series of semi-regular
Weekly Occasional Open Discussions.
(i.e. if I forget and skip one, no big)

Immediate prior one here:
https://chiefio.wordpress.com/2017/09/08/wood3/
and remains open for threads running there
(at least until the ‘several month’ auto-close of comments on stale threads).

Canonical list of old ones here: https://chiefio.wordpress.com/category/w-o-o-d/

So use “Tips” for “Oooh, look at the interesting ponder thing!”
and “W.O.O.D” for “Did you see what just happened?! What did you think about it?”

For this week, I’m going to toss 4 topics in the hopper.

1) Yet Another Bombing Attack in London. It did a squib, so something like 18 injured, nobody killed, but it was bucket sized. Had the whole thing gone off on the train, it would have been a huge deal. So the UK is getting what, one every 2 weeks now? How many or what rate before the UK Citizens decide “multicultural suicide” is a bad idea?

2) North Korea: New missile launch today. Plenty of range, big boost phase. So when will the USA Tiger get tired of this mouse chewing on its tail and just squash the sucker?
Don’t tell me: just AFTER we lose Pearl Harbor, again.

3) Markets tried to rally higher, barely did, then back to flatish. I’m not seeing much momentum either direction.

4) Trump again plays the Democrats Card. RINO RNC in a panic. MSM / LSM / Yellow Stream Media in a tizzy as it turns out “discussions” and “agreement to work together” are NOT just what they imagine is reality. They have heard of this reality thing, but are unacquainted with it… so flustered at anything unexpected or complicated.
Laugh, cry, buy popcorn futures? I donno…

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About E.M.Smith

A technical managerial sort interested in things from Stonehenge to computer science. My present "hot buttons' are the mythology of Climate Change and ancient metrology; but things change...
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240 Responses to W.O.O.D. – 15 Sept 2017

  1. philjourdan says:

    2) – We no longer know how to wage war. So yes, after we are burned. But this time it looks like Guam.
    4) – Question asked by Rush – did Trump doing a deal with Pelosi/Schumer upset you. He says it upsets none of Trump supporters. It did upset me. But only because I know (and Trump will learn) that Democrats do not keep their word. It did not SURPRISE me. And it did not make me support him less. In fact, other than the fact they are duplicitous, I love it! It gives the liberals heart burn (kind of like when the idiot asked his audience about the firing of Comey and thought his audience was a bunch of Trump supporters – failed Comics 101 – know your audience!) and the republicans red arse!

  2. Larry Ledwick says:

    What happens when the cash machines quit working and businesses have no power.
    The economy shifts to a cash economy.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-storm-irma-fed/cash-demand-doubled-for-fed-in-hurricane-hit-florida-idUSKCN1BQ2L2

  3. E.M.Smith says:

    @Phil:

    Guam is “in play” yet it would not really have the emotional impact of something larger. I wonder if Kim Kupcake has clue what he’s poking at…

    Yeah, I kinda liked it too, but with the reservation that the “deal” is being made with rats that have no record of keeping their promises…

    @Larry:

    “Cash” is essential for all sorts of transactions. The cashless weenies tend to forget that. When there is no cash, folks will invent one. From I.O.U.s to cigarettes in prisons to baggies of “stuff” to… The attempt to eliminate “cash” is doomed by nature.

    At the core of it, trade is barter. ANY commodity can be the counter trade item. It can be a standard fictional item, like paper money, a physical good, like precious metals, or just ‘whatever’ is around and of known demand, like cigarettes. I expect even kW can be traded in a crisis (as in “I’ll charge your eCar with 50 kW-hr for a case of beer”…

    Whiskey was a common “currency” early in our history. Farmers with excess grain turned it into whiskey as that was more easily traded and transported (and demand was typically always there ;-)

    I think I could be happy in a world using whiskey as currency, though there would be a certain tendency to run out of money if too much was about the house ;-)

  4. tom0mason says:

    The early Scottish and Irish settlers in America probably were used to bartering with drink in the old country, when they moved to America they soon found out that rye and corn whiskey could be made and be a pleasant enough tipple, though rum ruled the Southern states.

    The origins of whiskey can be traced back to the Medieval monks of both Ireland and Scotland, but now, those two countries make their own distinctive styles of their native spirit. So it is with American whiskey–the original concept may have been imported from far away lands, but some 300 years later, American whiskey, a spirit that can’t be made without corn, an indigenous American grain, is a product unto itself….

    …Whiskey-making was one of the first cottage industries in the land; it was responsible for George Washington mustering federal troops for the first time, and whiskey went with the early pioneers as they traveled westward to explore new territories. Whiskey was a spirit of contention during the Civil War, and was, in part, the reason that Grant never served a third term in the White House. Whiskey spurred the women of America to lead a crusade that led to Prohibition, and has played a part in every major war this nation has seen. In short, where America has been, so has American whiskey–and where whiskey has traveled, so have Americans been influenced by its presence.

    http://www.discus.org/heritage/spirits/

  5. pyromancer76 says:

    IMO, North Korea is China, with some psychosis added. They do nothing without orders from China. From my information NorK’s are slave labor for China and Russia. The Korean war was “China;” its non-ending was “China.” I recommend the conservative treehouse dot com for studies in economic warfare (Trump’s Art of the Deal played out re NorK). And if you (E.M.) agree even somewhat, do you have your usual interesting take on the subject?

  6. E.M.Smith says:

    There is something curiously satisfying about being on my (now) Internal use only Pi M3 and typing “ifdown wlan0″… so no wire plugged in to eth0 and WiFi off. Now that’s pretty secure!

    No need for network when just shoveling bits between disks, so why leave it connected at all? IFF I want network for something, I’m just one “ifup wlan0” away from it…

    Sometimes the easiest security is the strongest… just say no to the connection…

  7. E.M.Smith says:

    @Another Ian:

    The model code I’ve looked at isn’t exactly badly written. Generally nicely modular and with decent structure to it. Where it turns to a jungle is that it is highly externally parameter driven but those input files are not around.

    These things are not built to be a reality, they are built to be a customizable configurable play toy. So LOTS of stuff can be fed in a settings to change the behaviour in “experiments” then you cherry pick the one you like for your publication… As those papers are their money shot, they don’t want to publish all those parameter feeds being public…

    Then there’s the historical layers effect. Clearly each year or two a new Grad Student gets an assignment to add some “feature”. These, too, can be turned on and off. So you can run the model with, or without, things like ocean layers or humidity variations. Not exactly real… But each layer is a separate addition and often a separate style (and sometimes a different language… GISTemp uses FORTRAN for most of it, they has one recent chunk that isn’t…)

    So “model of reality” not so much. “Play toy for variations” with lots of knobs and dials, yup. Shifting style and sometimes language from layer to layer? Reflective of the money flow…

  8. E.M.Smith says:

    @Another Ian:

    Well, that’s sort of the whole idea behind things like the how to build a build master posting and the building your own system from scratch and the use of hash codes to assure no man-in-the-middle happened on the download of source codes and… ;-)

    Some of us have been practicing “trust nothing” but verify for a very long time ;-)

    I’m trying to get a round tuit for putting up a ‘how to make your own Debian Devuan mirror’ posting for the same reason. You get a copy, verify it, then lock it. After that all your builds are made from it and nothing can crawl in during a ‘download’ from out there somewhere as you don’t do that again until you can assure it is time and the path is clear…

    FWIW the “Build Master” at various OS sites puts a fair amount of work into figuring out how to assure that kind of thing can never ever happen. Bits only flowing from secure and pure outward is one part of it. Having locked down copies of any “Golden Master” is another. Traditionally I always wrote them to WORM media (Write Once Read Many – i.e. CDROM or similar). Now I’d likely use a squashfs file system as my readonly file system, with a computed hash of it and an hourly check that the hash didn’t change (done from a different machine over an nfs mount so it isn’t visible as happening on the archive machine). Not quite as secure, but pretty darned close.

    But most folks in the business today grew up on Microsoft stuff and the Microsoft way so are not as steeped in the Unix Way and institutionalized Secure Practices… Heck, even Linux is getting sloppy about it (just look at SystemD… GACK! )

  9. Larry Ledwick says:

    New survey on college students views on first amendment and freedom of speech – cliff notes, schools are failing at teaching basic democratic principles and fundamental rights.

    https://www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgov/2017/09/18/views-among-college-students-regarding-the-first-amendment-results-from-a-new-survey/

  10. David A says:

    Ask them if they can think of any benefits of CO2.

    My daughters high school friends could not.

  11. E.M.Smith says:

    Well, an interesting observation on the Odroid XU4 running Armbian:

    I mentioned before that using it on the TV with things plugged into the USB 3 interfaces (instead of my USB 2 hub in the USB 2 interface) “had issues” with things like the keyboard repeating keys or the WiFi dongle being sporadic.

    Well, back at my desktop, KB & Mouse in the hub and all working normally, I tried running with the home directory on a USB3.0 stick. It seemed to work fine… but…

    After a few minutes (maybe 20?) when I went to shut down, and unplug things, the USB Stick (one of the very small metal case ones – Monster brand) was hot. As was the USB port socket assembly. We’re not talking ‘a little warm’ here, we’re talking let-go-and-think-about-it hot. Not burning. I’d place it as about 160 F.

    Now in weeks (months?) of use with the hub plugging and unplugging things, I’ve never had that. As the only thing I was dong was running a browser, I/O to the stick would be the same load level. Something was different. That was the USB 3.0 drivers.

    My conclusion is that the USB 3.0 drivers have some kind of defect that makes them freerun when something is installed. Where it ought to be in a wait state between bits of traffic, it instead is doing some kind of hard loop that switches gates (that generates heat). In other words, needs work.

    As Armbian on the XU4 is just a transitional base for me, I’m going to be trying other OS levels (steps) to see if they are any better. I’d originally made an Armbian -> Devuan chip, but had the window drag issues and thought it was Devuan (when in fact it wasn’t) and dropped back to just Armbian (that still has it as a video compositor issue in the video driver). This means I need to try other XLinux-> Devuan sets and see if they are better.

    For now I’m just going to run with the stick in the hub as I’m busy with more pressing things and it works fine that way. But it’s now on the ToDo List…

  12. E.M.Smith says:

    Makes me glad that about 15 year ago I burned my credit cards and started “polluting the data stream”. What was then seen as paranoia by some, is now seen as prescience and prudence in retrospect…

    Golly, what a difference perspective can make…

    Anyone trying to “steal my identity” will be sorely disappointed. All they will get is crap. With luck, lots of SPAM callers and maybe even an agency or two ;-)

    My location is ambiguous, my address(es) confounded. My credit history almost non-existent ( in the last 5 or so years) and on it goes.

    It takes a long time to “dirty the data” effectively, but I’m pretty sure I’ve reached that point. “Free” credit card offers in the mail are nearly or at zero. Junk calls to the phone are only generic robo-calls to everyone. Actual money accounts isolated from “public” (i.e. store and credit card processor view) by and large with a cash break between where the money is and where it is spent (i.e. ATM withdrawal at the bank and cash to the Walmart Debit card at their money counter) One (i.e. agencies) can see the withdrawal of cash, but much of how it is spent is opaque – so also opaque to companies and ‘credit’ agencies.

    It takes about 2 hours a month of time to operate. But, IMHO, it is well worth it. How do I know? The Equifax thing happens and I’m at most vaguely curious about the how and have little worry about me or my money.

    “You say ‘Paranoia’ like it was a BAD thing…” – E.M.Smith ;-)

    “If you are a Systems Admin, it isn’t paranoia, they ARE out to get you!”
    – folks wisdom in the SysAdmin community…

    (The spouse, however, still needs a bit of work. She’s far better than ‘before’, but still not fully vested into the SysAdmin culture… OTOH, she makes all my Amazon “buys” for me, so looks like a computer nerd in the data ;-) Call it a feature…)

  13. Glenn999 says:

    Looks like another worst hurricane ever….
    Any info on the actual stats?

  14. E.M.Smith says:

    Glenn999:

    Which “stats”?

    We had a 12 or so year “drought” of hurricanes, so yes, it is by far the worst hurricane year this decade.

    We had far far worse in the deep past, and even in the 1800s.

    In about 2004? Charlie ran over Orlando in a worse event. Yet Andrew was far far worse than Charlie. So over a 1/4 century, it’s “so-so”.

    Pick your start date, and that sets your “worst ever”…

  15. Glenn999 says:

    I was just wondering if the wind and pressure readings were being analyzed by anyone. As you know, the media loves to hype storms in order to prove global warming. I heard one report saying “worst storm in living memory”….

  16. Larry Ledwick says:

    Hmmm interesting – everyone probably assumed as much but if true this provides a solid link between Antifa and establishment Democrats. Not much room to protest if you are sending them nearly a million dollars.

    https://www.youngcons.com/hillary-caught-giving-800k-to-help-fund-antifa-quietly-funneled-the-money-from-her-campaign/

  17. Larry Ledwick says:

    From wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Atlantic_hurricane_records

    Most intense Atlantic hurricanes

    Rank 	Hurricane 	Season 	Pressure
    hPa 	inHg
    1 	Wilma 	 	2005 	882 	26.05
    2 	Gilbert 	1988 	888 	26.23
    3 	"Labor Day" 	1935 	892 	26.34
    4 	Rita 	 	2005 	895 	26.43
    5 	Allen 	 	1980 	899 	26.55
    6 	Camille 	1969 	900 	26.58
    7 	Katrina 	2005 	902 	26.64
    8 	Mitch 	 	1998 	905 	26.73
    9 	Dean 	 	2007 	905 	26.73
    10 	Maria 	 	2017 	908 	26.81
    

    Source: HURDAT[1]

    National Hurricane Center; Hurricane Research Division (April 11, 2017). “Atlantic hurricane best track (HURDAT version 2)”

    [Hopefully word press does not screw with the formatting too much]

    [Reply: Used “pre” tags and adjusted tabs, repeated “dean” values from above as Wiki had a double box. -EMS.]

  18. Larry Ledwick says:

    Well so much for that hope, word press ate all the white space.

    Unfortunately there are about a half dozen ways to rate hurricanes as “worst ever” I personally think the lowest central pressure is in most respects the best but area of maximum winds also has some value. A really intense tighly wound storm can do catastrophic wind damage and a very large storm that maintains high winds for a long time can stack up a really big storm surge on the right front side of the storm. Throw in the effects of ocean floor shape and local currents storm surge height in and of itself is not really a good way to rate storms as where and how they make landfall can make a big difference in the surge height.

  19. E.M.Smith says:

    @Larry:

    Also don’t forget that we note a 5 minute Cat 5 Status 1000 miles from nowhere in the Atlantic now, but prior to about 1950 it was basically only “wind gauge at landfall”. Then we have basically NO idea what was common prior to 1850…

    Were the “Virgin Islands” so “virgin” at discovery due to frequent “scour to the ground” Cat 5+ storms? Just sayin’…

  20. Larry Ledwick says:

    Yep that is one of my major pet peeves about the media, there is a huge difference between saying

    Storm xyz is the worst hurricane on record
    and :
    Storm xyz is the worst hurricane on record since 1917 for the Island of Puerto Rico or what ever.

    Just really sloppy attention to detail that makes less sophisticated viewers draw unwarranted conclusions. As you note we really only have good storm data since about the 1960’s when it comes to hurricanes, prior to that it is mostly random chance if anyone recorded a useful instrumental wind speed or barometer reading with accurate position and time.

  21. E.M.Smith says:

    Well, I just abandoned the yard due to “sprinkles”.

    This is the second time this month it rained on me here. VERY unusual. In many years “first rain” is after Halloween. Still a month away…

  22. kneel says:

    “…we really only have good storm data since about the 1960’s when it comes to hurricanes, prior to that it is mostly random chance if anyone recorded a useful instrumental wind speed or barometer reading with accurate position and time.”

    Or if ’twas really bad, there were NO survivors to mention it….

  23. Adrian Ashfield says:

    Hurricane stats:
    ‘Why Hurricanes Can’t Be Blamed On Global Warming ‘ By Dr. Roy Spencer
    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/09/19/new-book-why-hurricanes-cant-be-blamed-on-global-warming/

    China’s GDP has been growing @ ~7% for years. Maybe down a fraction and so is “weak.” America’s GDP grows at only~2% yet is said to be “strong” by the Feds. Makes no sense to me. 2% is struggling along not really keeping pace with inflation.

    EMS. I strongly differ with you over N. Korea. There is no way Kim Jong-Un would start a war by attacking America. He is not suicidal. Having nukes is the ony way he can prevent America from doing another regime change, as they would love to make Korea all one ad station troops and missiles on the Chines border.
    Look at what happened to Saddam & Gaddafi when they gave up nukes and now what Trump is trying to do to Iran. America is in a league of its own for killing people and destroying countries. Their actions in the ME and Afghanistan are what breeds terrorists, not to mention over running Europe with refugees.

  24. Larry Ledwick says:

    Adrian Ashfield says:
    21 September 2017 at 8:53 pm
    America is in a league of its own for killing people and destroying countries.

    Not even close, Communist China and the Soviet Union alone have killed well over 100 million people, many of them their own citizens and destroyed all of eastern Europe (Soviet Union), (both of them) North and South Vietnam, North Korea and almost destroyed South Korea, Cambodia, Laos, tried to destroy the Philippians, and the USSR also trashed most of Africa and South and Central America, and China is on the the hook for Mongolia, Tibet and similar adventures in south east asia with various communist inspired revolutions.

    It is really unproductive to leave out 100 years of wanton destruction and massive wholesale murder and selectively remember a handful of occasions where the US screwed up.
    Those were often our attempts to fix or prevent the disasters visited on those countries by revolutionaries sponsored by the Soviet Union and China or try to rescue them from disastrous dictators who in almost all cases got to power through the influence and support of the USSR, China and their client states like Cuba, Venezuela, Honduras etc etc.

    Not saying it was a good idea to make those interventions but the account sheets fall very heavily on the side of the Communist / Marxist revolutionaries and Soviet, (now Russia) and Chinese puppet client states.

  25. Larry Ledwick says:

    By the way the Germans thought there was no way that the allies would fight them in WWI and made similar misjudgements in WWII. No body thought Sadam would invade Kuwait, etc. miscalculations about how crazy totalitarian governments are fill the history books. No body thought the USSR would roll into Czechoslovakia in 1968, Nobody thought that the Balkans would turn into a killing ground and mass genocide after Yugoslavia collapsed, Nobody expected the Chinese to surge across the boarder in Korea when we approached the Yalu river pushing back the North Koreans. You would be hard pressed to find any war that one side or the other never thought the other side would be that crazy.

  26. Another Ian says:

    New developments in weather/climate. BOM in Oz strars again

    “That climate change causes less than zero rainfall is an interesting but obviously fake hypothesis.”

    More at

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/09/21/welcome-to-australia-where-its-always-warmer-somewhere/

  27. E.M.Smith says:

    @Adrian:

    Economies that are grossly behind the peak available can grow at fantastic percentage rates… until they catch up. As a mature economy working on newest tech and near highest productivity possible, the USA can grow at about 3% Max. As a largely backward country trying to catch up, China was able to grow at 12%+ but as they approach modernity, that has slowed down to about 7% headed, eventually, to 3%. So that’s how 7% can be “bad” (compared to 12% available) and 2.x% can be “good” compared to a 3% hard ceiling limited by the rate of new tech creation.

    Per USA and killing / destroying countries:

    Um, way wrong. Take, as minor examples, Alexander The Great, Roman Empire, Persian Empire, Holy Roman Empire, British Empire, Napoleon, USSR (30 Million in a Ukrainian famine alone… and about another 20 million in WWII IIRC), Emperor Chin (unified China), Japan (Rape of Nanking, Manchuria, lots of the Pacific), Axis powers WWII, That whole trench warfare thing of W.W.I killed millions by the dozen…before the USA got involved and ended it… and then there’s the Muslim Invasions forming the Ottoman Turk Empire (and killing their way to France and Romania, all of North Africa and into India, collapsing the Byzantine Empire and killing anyone who didn’t convert). Oh, and then honorable mention for Spanish Empire and the destruction of millions of American Indians though in fairness many of them were by disease… Oh, and the Aztec and Maya Empires need honorable mention for mass murder too…

    But perhaps you just want to start history as being since W.W.II was over…

    As per Kim Jong Nutjob: Never trust a nutty dictator to be rational. They are, by definition, psychopaths. He will believe much of his own bullshit and likely already put a nuke on orbit (that their satellite is tumbling does NOT mean it is useless, it just means it doesn’t need to be oriented to work – i.e. not looking at things just waiting for a signal… it might have been ‘just a test’, but I doubt it.) So since he had a nuke, and a delivery vehicle, I’d expect him to ‘test’ the system with a live device. Now he’s going to think the EMP over the USA will bring us down (and expect a dog pile from Russia, China, etc. afterward to finish the job). Further, he’s likely to be selling nukes to iran (and letting them test on his range so it looks like him) with part of the ‘deal’ being they are “good to go” for their half of the double tap…

    Now it doesn’t matter that WE know that’s suicidal (as we have those great subs full of nukes and the EMP effects will not be nearly as horrid as advertised), all that matters is HE has to believe it. His whole life experience has taught him that he can do anything and no one can stop him. He will not believe he is a pip-squeek (and nobody will ever tell him that.)

    So no, I have zero confidence that a serial nut-job and serial proliferator and congenital liar and abusive psychopath will behave rationally…

    Oh, and I forgot to mention the Sea People who destroyed much of everywhere only being stopped by Egypt… and Hittite Empire who liked doing-in Egyptians among others and the Sumerian / Babylonian Empire that collapsed the Jews among others and the Dutch who tried building an empire from Dutch East Indies to Indonesia and did-in a bunch along the way, but then there’s also the way the Indonesian Muslims slaughtered those who did not agree and, well, it’s a long list… Ask the Filipinos about how nice the Japanese were…

    Frankly, the USA is just too nice, meek, and moral to do a decent job of it with destroying nations and slaughtering people. We end up feeling all guilty about it and instead do “nation building” and “Marshal Plans” and all that. We give back the land we conquer and invite the folks to join our side. Then teach them to run industries. Go figure.

    Oh Damn! I forgot to mention all the tribal slaughters in Africa. Tutsi vs Hootu or some such was a few million just there. Most of it not well recorded.

  28. Larry Ledwick says:

    Regarding Korea, here is the Rocketman’s response to President Trump’s UN appearance.
    This is two images from twitter, we will see if wordpress breaks the link or permissions block users from seeing them.

  29. jim2 says:

    Probably not, but Adrian might like to look at the millions killed by various communists (ancestors of Antifa):

    http://www.scottmanning.com/content/communist-body-count/

  30. Adrian Ashfield says:

    Thanks to all who replied to my post. I meant, and should have said “America is CURRENTLY in a leagues of its own. In these days of the “axis of evil” and “terrorist states,” etc.

    EMS, you have previously commented that we should attack Iran and now add N. Korea to the list.
    You may be right but the facts don’t support it. Just consider the regime changes the US has attempted and if I were in Kim Jong-Un’s shoes that is what I would expect to happen without MAD.
    Pakistan has lots of nukes and a contingent of religious fanatics who look far more dangerous to me.
    I feel a preemptive strike makes you the aggressor. It is only too easy to use that as an excuse and any military actions in N.Korea would probably end up killing millions

  31. Another Ian says:

    “Oh My – Text of President Trump Executive Order on Sanctions To North Korea…”

    https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2017/09/21/oh-my-text-of-president-trump-executive-order-on-sanctions-to-north-korea/

  32. Larry Ledwick says:

    And it was released with very short notice, it is now t-19 minutes to the time the order takes place and it was released within the last hour or so. Barely enough time to read and translate it for the NK’s.

  33. E.M.Smith says:

    @Adrian:

    Unfortunately, in the era of small batch nukes in a nutjob’s hands, the prior MAD doctrine of deterrence does not work. Especially for Iran that has a doctrine of self destruction to reach nirvana…

    So I put a lot of thought into it.
    How do you fix this asymmetrical-mixed-with-crazy threat?

    My conclusion was that the one thing that would clearly work is Swift Assured Asymmetrical Destruction. The SAAD Doctrine. And it is sad. I am by nature fairly pacifist. I save spiders and carry them outdoors. I don’t step on ants and bugs if I can avoid it. I rescue injured critters. I avoid ever hurting anyone if at all possible.

    Unfortunately this didn’t mix well with the sociopath bully type, being polite to them is an invitation to attack. So I had more abuse than I care to mention. Eventually I reached a breaking point and basically called out a gang of about 1/2 dozen active and 1/2 dozen passive but willing to pile on. The end result was they gave a collective nervous laugh, ran off, and never bothered me again. (Despite seeing each other in classes for the next 3 or 4 months).

    Lesson learned: The sociopath / psychopath / bully / Alpha type does not understand nor respect polite nor reason. (Subsequent life events as an adult confirmed this…) It only responds to the proposition of swift and certain unpleasantness (directly to the self, hurt to others is pleasurable to them, so sanctions hurting his people will not bother the Alpha-Pathic Dictator)

    Trump understands this too. Most top-tier folks in our society are too remote from The Streets and too steeped in finishing schools to ‘get it’.

    So yes, with reluctance and heavy heart, I see the same Alpha-Pathic type in the leadership of Iran and in the nutjob running N. Korea. The necessary conclusion is that they will likely only understand their own rapid deaths.

    That liberates the oppressed under them and they usually take the opportunity to not attack the folks who liberated them, but finish the job with the power structure above them. See Mussolini and his hanging as an example. There are many more.

    Per killing “millions” in Korea in a SAAD attack: Nope. No way. Flatten the area where a launch is happening and take out the Dear Leader and his cadre of suck-up Generals and the place is unlikely to do anything. Do that with a simultaneous launch of a massive drone and cruise missile attack dumping loads of cluster munitions taking out the artillery batteries they have neatly lined up just over the border, they quite likely wouldn’t get more than a dozen shots off ( no orders, and a line of cruise missiles on the S side can turn and drop a mile or two on the N side in moments…) Most of those dozen shots they might get off would not hit anywhere important. After that, all their massive manpower has to think about their own land mines on the border… Basically, they are bottled up and leaderless and would be happy for a fresh start…

    Air power would run ‘clean up’ with follow-on bombing and shootdowns of any aircraft and artillery that was missed or just needed more busting up. Leave all the rest of their military untouched. Bases, barracks, trucks, whatever. Make it clear you are only taking out the offensive capabilities.

    Over in about an hour for most of the action. One day or two for the mop-up flights. Then either they take the opportunity for a reboot, or you just have a border blockade problem while they decide what to do without Dear Leader. Through all that, you tell China “We don’t want N. Korea. You keep it, but clean it up”. Now they have a million Chinese “helpers” keeping them from being stupid… Casualties ought to be mostly about 1000 at the missile test site, however many man all the artillery batteries, how ever many pilots they have stupid enough to fly, some few dozen to hundreds of “hidden threats” that pop up after the decapitation and de-fanging. Our side likely a half dozen pilots and craft, max and maybe a few hundred soldiers on the ground. Civilians maybe a thousand and that only if our first de-fanging attack is flawed.

    Compare that to the real millions in an effective EMP attack on the USA and a nuclear obliteration counter strike by subs on N. Korea. Followed by China getting into the mix and an Iranian pile-on (and their subsequent obliteration by subs…) Since I’d really rather not go down that path, doing a SAAD attack and accepting a few thousand total deaths, mostly N. Korean artillery battery staff, would be the better choice.

    And after that all the other Alpha-Pathics tend to not pick on you any more…

  34. Larry Ledwick says:

    As you mention, the big trick will be finding a face saving way for the Chinese not to step in militarily and lose face by not fulfilling promises to strike back if we strike first.

    Somehow you need to create the public impression that rocketboy started it, in which case China has already stated bets are off.

    My suspicion is that back channel communications with China have already been made or are underway to set up some similar series of events. Perhaps a coup attempt that goes bad and a claim that Kim Jong-un has lost control of his troops, or a mysterios accident at his nuclear test site, and an “accidental” nuclear above ground detonation, perhaps a few select military bases are neutralized, and China “volunteers to negotiate a settlement and protect the “sovereignty of NK and hold the DMZ secure so SK does not move north. Perhaps the US sinks a few of their submarines and ships and says they were responding to an attack initiated by NK.

    Both China and Russia don’t want to lose control of Kim Jong-un and get sucked into something that does not serve their interests, but they also want to protect NK territory because they both want a buffer between their countries and SK.

    I think it likely that “the deal maker” can find a way to make that situation become a win win for all the big dogs, and de-fang the Kim Jong-un at the same time.

    That assumes of course that China and Russia don’t want NK to start something as a pretext to make other military moves. Not highly likely in my estimation but you have to recognize that we might have completely miss-read their intentions. Both have recently spent a lot of money and energy rearming and modernizing their militarys, so there is a small but real chance they are operating on the assumption that conflict with the US is inevitable (China has said just that literally through some of their quasi official sources), and are in a position of use it or lose it, if the US fixes its current military short comings and Japan begins re-arming (which they are just beginning to do now as some on Japan realize that they cannot always depend on the US thanks to Obama).

  35. Larry Ledwick says:

    The other side of this coin is what if Kim Jong-un does something really off the books and quietly funnels a couple of his thermonuclear devices to Jihadists with the promise that they use them on the US, France and UK for example. That would be an out of the blue black swan event that would fulfill his promise to make us pay dearly while having plausible deniability.

    That is almost as scary as the prospect of Kim Jong-un doing an EMP attack.

  36. Larry Ledwick says:

    A bit more on NK

    https://alboenews.net/2017/09/21/breaking-kim-jong-un-calls-donald-trump-mentally-deranged/

    Another characteristic of pathological dictators is their tendency to like “really big” demonstrations of power.
    Sadam H had his super gun just like Hitler did, both wanted to make a bold show of power with extreme weapons (tiger tank too big to use effectively) V2 rocket even though the same resources expended differently would have been far more effective etc.

    NK could also go for a super high yield H bomb in the pacific to freak out Japan and show off to the US and world that they are a power to be reckoned with. Once you master the basics of a thermonuclear device there is no practical limit to the yield that is possible, especially if you are not constrained by the throw weight or take off weight of the delivery system. He could build a clone of the Tzar Bomba if he chose to with technology he probably already has, just to send a strong chest thumping message. Build a huge device into an old submarine and take it where ever he wanted in the pacific.

  37. jim2 says:

    I seem to recall a discussion of survival somewhere that mentioned a bow and drill, but can’t locate it. I’ve actually made a fire with a bow and drill exactly one time. I’m sure all here understand the simple concept and guys on the internet make it look easy. However, if my life had depended on making a fire with a bow and drill, I would be dead, and that was with use of saws, mill lumber, a hunting knife, a variety of manufactured cordage, as well as wood gathered from around the area. You have to know what sort of wood is best for the drill, what sort is best for the fire board, what to use for the bow “handle,” and how to attach the cordage so the damn thing will work at all. You have to know the best diameter of the drill. And then, probably the easiest part, how to make a workable birds nest. In the end it took three of us to get an ember. Yep, I’ll go with a lighter or mag fire starter.

  38. E.M.Smith says:

    Hmph… had a nice long comment typed, thought I hit enter, and it seems to be just gone.

    Well, the shorter form:

    I like the BBQ lighters. Built in trigger lock and hold a ‘charge’ for years. Easier to light things like a puddle of gasoline in comfort. I put one in the larger kits.

    Since cars are just about everywhere I am 99%+ of the time, think of them as a basket of resources instead of a car. Tank of gas. Metals for making things. Tinder from the seat stuffing. Fabric from the head liner and seat covers. Firestart / coal maker in the cigarette lighter. “Improvised light welding” with the batteries that also means fire starter sparker. Portable metal ‘tent’. With a decent hack saw, tires make very durable sandals. etc. etc.

    Per friction fire starting: The trick is make lots of heat fast and don’t let it escape. Moderate bow speeds just give you hot wood. I’d be more inclined to chuck a dowel in my electric drill and plug it into my inverter ;-)

    Lots of “survival” books (and attitudes) concentrate on the ‘lost in the woods’ scenario. The reality is that most of us will be faced with “Bad Thing in Urban Environment” and surrounded by more “resources” than we need. We just need to see them AS resources, not as what they were.

  39. Adrian Ashfield says:

    EMS, please start by reading what Eric Margolis writes here. He is probably the most informed journalist on the subject, having been there many times.
    https://ericmargolis.com/2017/09/listen-to-those-or-elses/
    And
    https://ericmargolis.com/2017/07/end-the-korean-war/

    You didn’t like being bullied and neither did N. Korea. N.Korea views America as the bully with good reason. They killed 2.5 million Koreans and flattened every major city with more bombs than used in WW2. Neither have they forgotten the way they were treated by the Japanese. Now you are saying THEY shouldn’t stand up to the bully?
    America has fought 13 wars in 30 years at a cost of $14.2 trillion.
    They can’t be trusted. America promised Gorbachev they would not move into the countries freed by the USSR. Now they have moved weapons into all of them. Trump is currently talking about reneging on the nuclear deal with Iran.

    As is known to most outside the US government, wars, once started, never follow the original plan. Remember how short the Iraq war was forecast to be and that the inhabitants would welcome the “liberators” with flowers?
    China has said it will not allow American troops into N.Korea and would support them if America attacks them. Do you really want to risk starting WW3?

    You wrote: “Per killing “millions” in Korea in a SAAD attack: Nope. No way. Flatten the area where a launch is happening and take out the Dear Leader and his cadre of suck-up Generals and the place is unlikely to do anything.”
    You don’t know how the N.Koreans feel. The y remember suffering the Korean War. Unlikely as it might seem they really do support their leader. They have one of the world’s largest armies and are dug into the mountains. US intelligence of their positions is scant and dubious. One of the first responses would be to shell Seoul where half the S.Koreans live.
    Maybe you agree with Lindsey Graham who recently said the lives lost wouldn’t matter because they would be “over there.”

    There is no good reason to think N.Korea has an EMP weapon in orbit. SAAD is wishful thinking. The only way China would stop N. Korea’s nuke program would be if America ceased its war games on the border every year and removed their bases and 7th fleet from the area. There is no reason to think N.Korea would attack first. They show no sign of being suicidal like some religious groups. America is always the one to start things and they never turn out well.
    13 wars? Come on..

  40. E.M.Smith says:

    Adrian:

    It isn’t about me, other than that’s how I learned how sociopaths think.

    It isn’t about the Korean War, other than the fact it never was formally ended means we are legally allowed to bomb the snot out of them for developing new weapons.

    It IS all about a nut-job paranoid with a bunch of nukes and a stated intent to use them on us.

    Of course no action ever goes exactly as planned. However the capabilities of our hardware and people are orders of magnitude more than theirs. Frankly, I’m glad they have millions of soldiers dug into mountains. That means they can’t do ‘mobility warfare’ with them. They are set up for 2 things: Invasion by the USA and S. Korea, or invasion OF S. Korea after massive shelling. So you don’t play that game. You don’t invade and you take out their offensive capacity needed to invade (artillery and aircraft – that we are exceptional at doing). Then just block the border. (With a potential ‘sink the subs’ if they get cranky – another thing we are exceptional at with all sorts of sub hunters). Then they can sit there and stew as long as they want.

    Also note: How they feel is entirely irrelevant. Feelings change. Hardware and capacity are what matters. Folks who feel upset die just as well as those who are happy…

    So no, I don’t give a rats behind about how they feel. It just isn’t relevant to the problem. So they are paranoid. They can 1) Get over it. 2) Live with it. or 3) Die.

    In any case, “Not my problem”. My problem is exactly and only how to remove a paranoid nutjob from running a nuclear state and how to neutralize the nuclear threat. That, IMHO, requires a decapitation strike that also takes out the nuclear developers and sites. That, then, requires destruction of their artillery to assure their blackmail of S. Korea is toothless. Anything else is details and tertiary actions to prevent escalation and counter attacks. All of that is best done in a SAAD attack. Swift. Assured. Asymmetric. Destruction.

    Or they can just give up the nukes and go back to whining and posturing.

    Oh, and the history, relative morality, body count, etc. etc. of the USA is also entirely irrelevant. When you have been pushed into the role of World Cop against your will, folks won’t like you. (Note: it was only after the 2nd world war we didn’t start that we decided it was us elected…)

  41. Larry Ledwick says:

    You do remember that the North Koreans started the Korean war!

    They over ran all but some small enclaves in the south then were pushed back into the north by the UN forces, where upon the Red Chinese came across the border with a massive invasion and human wave attacks pushed the UN forces back to the 38th parallel.

    The reason there are two Koreas is that Russia Annexed the north as part of the price of them entering the war against Japan. much like they demanded half of eastern Europe as pay back for the WWII.

    From Wiki:
    The conflict escalated into open warfare when North Korean forces—supported by the Soviet Union and China—moved into the south on 25 June 1950.

    After the first two months of war, South Korean and U.S. forces rapidly dispatched to Korea were on the point of defeat, forced back to a small area in the south known as the Pusan Perimeter.

    On October 1950, mass Chinese forces crossed the Yalu and entered the war. The surprise Chinese intervention triggered a retreat of UN forces which continued until mid-1951.

    After these reversals of fortune, which saw Seoul change hands four times, the last two years of fighting became a war of attrition, with the front line close to the 38th parallel.
    – – – – – –
    When you have massed forces surging back and forth across a country multiple times it tends to do a lot of damage and kill a lot of people.

    I used to work with a guy that was in a fox hole in Korea when the Chinese swept over his position during their Thanksgiving day offensive Nov 24 1953 which surged down the peninsula over a 25 mile wide front. He almost got machine-gunned in his fox hole by a Chinese soldier who made 2 fatal mistakes;
    One he couldn’t aim very well and hosed down the fox hole just to his left instead of killing him in his sleeping bag.
    Second the Chinese soldier made the mistake of standing there long enough for my friend to shoot him with a .45 pistol which he slept with cocked locked and one in the tube.

    So just how to you propose it it America’s fault for all the destruction when 3 communist countries (China, Russia and North Korea started and sustained that war to capture South Korea)?

    That war was the beginning of 30+ years of proxy wars of conquest by the communists as they tried to establish a world wide network of satellite counties under the control of the Soviet Union and Red China. American had nothing to do with starting those wars, although we had a lot to do with making them so expensive that we eventually broke the economies of the USSR and China and they decided to contest by other means (china committed economic suicide with their cultural revolution and took themselves out of the wars, and eventually shifted to a market based economy and conquest by industrial dominance).

  42. philjourdan says:

    The problem with E.M. responding is that once he has commented, there is not a lot left to say. However I will point out one thing to Adrian.

    As E.M. said, it was after a second world war, not started by the US, that we were thrust into the role of world cops. Yes, there have been excesses. But then as any cop will tell you, they are only human, and not perfect.

    That role lasted until Obama the magnificent ascended to power. And he decreed no more war! And with a wave of his magic hand, he abolished all wars. Except he did not. During his Nobel Prize winning reign, NK got nukes and ICBMs. Iran got Nukes and mid range BMs. Libya erupted and cost an ambassador. Egypt drove back the dogs of war. Syria is still fighting them. Russia started building its empire again with forays into Georgia and the Ukraine.

    And Islamic terrorists brought the fight again to the US shores. In short, the reign of Obama the first was fraught with more violence and threats than his predecessors. Why? because he abrogated the role of World Cop. All that accomplished was a power vacuum that Russia was more than happy to fill.

    And a Psychopath that is more than happy to shoot an Atomic bomb at anyone, and not caring where it lands.

    And a bunch of Mad Mullahs that want to do the same so they can get their 72 Virgins.

    America is so bad, that it has rules against killing civilians, even when those civilians are wired with an IED.

    Your problem Adrian is you have talking points. And no intelligent rejoinders. Slogans do not bring peace. Nor does wishful thinking.

  43. Larry Ledwick says:

    Finally someone publishes a commentary on how intentionally twisted the polls are by over sampling Democrats to give a badly skewed view of President Trump’s approval ratings.

    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/fraud-mainstream-polls-use-29-more-democrats-than-republicans/article/2635271

  44. Adrian Ashfield says:

    Larry,
    “You do remember that the North Koreans started the Korean war! ”

    “The peninsula had landed in America’s lap almost by accident. Since the beginning of the 20th century, Korea had been a part of the Japanese empire, and after World War II it fell to the Americans and the Soviets to decide what should be done with their enemy’s mperial possessions. In August 1945, two young aides at the State Department divided the Korean peninsula in half along the 38th parallel. The Russians occupied the area north of the line and the United States occupied the area to its south.

    By the end of the decade, two new states had formed on the peninsula. In the south, the anti-communist dictator Syngman Rhee (1875-1965) enjoyed the reluctant support of the American government; in the north, the communist dictator Kim Il Sung (1912-1994) enjoyed the slightly more enthusiastic support of the Soviets. Neither dictator was content to remain on his side of the 38th parallel, however, and border skirmishes were common. Nearly 10,000 North and South Korean soldiers were killed in battle before the war even began.”
    Read more here: http://www.history.com/topics/korean-war

    History is written by the winners but I have read that dictator Rhee, egged om by America and its domino theory was largely responsible for provoking the N.Korea attack. I wasn’t there and don’t know. I do know that millions were killed, many of them by American bombs. Half the deaths were civilian and I wonder how many of the troops really wanted to fight AS sual the warmongers got away unscathed. (I know America never does anything wrong and only kills bad guys. Anyone killed is a bad guy by definition.)
    Korea should never have been divided in the first place, it should have been freed. But the big bullies had other ideas.

  45. Adrian Ashfield says:

    I’m having trouble with posts disappearing too.

    Larry,
    “You do remember that the North Koreans started the Korean war! ”

    “The peninsula had landed in America’s lap almost by accident. Since the beginning of the 20th century, Korea had been a part of the Japanese empire, and after World War II it fell to the Americans and the Soviets to decide what should be done with their enemy’s mperial possessions. In August 1945, two young aides at the State Department divided the Korean peninsula in half along the 38th parallel. The Russians occupied the area north of the line and the United States occupied the area to its south.

    By the end of the decade, two new states had formed on the peninsula. In the south, the anti-communist dictator Syngman Rhee (1875-1965) enjoyed the reluctant support of the American government; in the north, the communist dictator Kim Il Sung (1912-1994) enjoyed the slightly more enthusiastic support of the Soviets. Neither dictator was content to remain on his side of the 38th parallel, however, and border skirmishes were common. Nearly 10,000 North and South Korean soldiers were killed in battle before the war even began.”
    Read more here: http://www.history.com/topics/korean-war

    History is written by the winners but I have read that dictator Rhee, egged om by America and its domino theory was largely responsible for provoking the N.Korean attack. I wasn’t there and don’t know. I do know that millions were killed, many of them by American bombs. Half the deaths were civilian and I wonder how many of the troops really wanted to fight As sual the warmongers got away unscathed. (I know America never does anything wrong and only kills bad guys. Anyone killed is a bad guy by definition.)
    Korea should never have been divided in the first place, it should have been freed. But the big bullies had other ideas.

  46. Adrian Ashfield says:

    EMS,
    “It isn’t about me, other than that’s how I learned how sociopaths think.”
    You don’t think it is sociopathic to attack another country, kill and wound millions, for no good reason. like America did to Iraq?

    “It isn’t about the Korean War, other than the fact it never was formally ended means we are legally allowed to bomb the snot out of them for developing new weapons.”
    Wrong. Only if one side breaks the armistice agreement. N.Korea hasn’t.

    “It IS all about a nut-job paranoid with a bunch of nukes and a stated intent to use them on us.”
    Can you explain why it is peaceful for America to have 7,200 nukes and test fire thousands of missiles, but it is an aggressive act for N.Korea to do 1/1000 of the same thing?
    Keeping in mind America has fought 13 wars in the last 30 years and Korea not one. More like what Mrs A;bright said: “what’s the point of having a strong military if you don’t use it?”

    “So no, I don’t give a rats behind about how they feel..”
    That is the American view. It doesn’t matter how many are killed or wounded. Senator Lindsay Graham actually stated that recently.

    “In any case, “Not my problem”. My problem is exactly and only how to remove a paranoid nutjob from running a nuclear state”
    So why shouldn’t another country, say Russia, use the same argument to wipe out America?

    “When you have been pushed into the role of World Cop against your will, folks won’t like you. ”
    Polls show that the majority of the world wishes America would stop that. They are acting more like rogue cops, sometimes for the benefit of corporations. Show me what good has come out of the 13 wars compared to the terrible loss of life, limbs and property.

  47. philjourdan says:

    History is written by the winners but I have read that dictator Rhee, egged om by America and its domino theory was largely responsible for provoking the N.Korean attack.

    I am surprised you did not drag in the CIA in on that plot. I do notice how people will go to all extremes to excuse despots if they feel it will help their cause of discrediting the US.

    Here’s your problem. The UN (not the US) defended South Korea. While the US had the lion share of troops, it was a UN fight. So apparently most of the world did not see Rhee sneaking around Kim’s bed chamber like you did.

  48. philjourdan says:

    Wrong. Only if one side breaks the armistice agreement. N.Korea hasn’t.

    Wrong. It has many times. Shelling South Korea IS a violation. I guess you missed that.

    You don’t think it is sociopathic to attack another country, kill and wound millions, for no good reason. like America did to Iraq?

    How many errors in one statement? let me count the ways. #1 – Iraq stared the war. Period. #2 – The pre-war population of Iraq was 24.5 million. After the “war”? 24.9 million. So where are the millions killed? (it is over 34 million today).

    So why shouldn’t another country, say Russia, use the same argument to wipe out America?

    The old USSR had just such a plan. Ever hear of MAD? E.M. talked about it. That is why they did not. But they were run by rational leaders – even though they hated the US. You think some clown that tells the nation he is the only brains in the country is rational? Here’s another. Since when did the US fire an ICBM over another country without their permission? There are so many holes in your diatribe, a Mac truck has no problem driving through it.

  49. Adrian Ashfield says:

    philjourdan,
    “So apparently most of the world did not see Rhee sneaking around Kim’s bed chamber like you did.”
    What I actually wrote was: ” I wasn’t there and don’t know”
    Do try and not misquote me.

  50. philjourdan says:

    I quoted you verbatim. However that part was not in quotes or blockquotes. So it was not a quote.

    It was a paraphrase. And it accurately reflected your supposition.

    Learn the difference. It will save you on your tums bill.

  51. Larry Ledwick says:

    Wrong. Only if one side breaks the armistice agreement. N.Korea hasn’t.

    You need to catch up a bit with history. I never said the US did no wrong, but when contrasted with the stunningly brutal behavior of North Korea, we were very constrained.

    It is difficult to limit casualties when your opponent (China floods the country with over 1 million troops and support personnel). To make matters worse the Chinese and North Koreans had little regard for limiting casualties due to their human wave attacks the only way to stop their advances were to use massive concentrated fire power. That kills people. You have to understand the nature of that war to understand the accounting of killed and wounded. This was not a battle between some meek under manned 3rd world country but a massive ground war fought primarily by the largest country (population wise ) in the world.

    You might want to look at the order of battle for the Chinese and how much manpower and military hardware they poured into the country, with the backing of both Mao and Stalin they had effectively unlimited resources. Korea was the opening effort of massive proxy wars, of the cold war period and Vietnam was the final effort in that regard, both involved multiple super powers engaged in massive military operations. That led to very large casualty counts.

    The only other option was to concede victory to the aggressor which the US and her allies were not willing to do. In Korea that ended in a never ending armistice and in North Vietnam a military victory and diplomatic and congressional capitulation, as the set up a partitioned country and then the US Congress pulled funding out from under the South Vietnamese after we transferred conduct of the war to them.

    North Korea has repeatedly violated the armistice, they have sunk South Korean ships, seized a US ship in international waters (killing some of the crew) [ ie USS Pueblo], have murdered UN peace keepers in the peace village, (axe murder of two United States Army officers by North Korean soldiers on August 18, 1976) Conducted assassinations in other countries.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_border_incidents_involving_North_Korea

  52. Larry Ledwick says:

    Regarding China’s participation in the Korean war, from wiki

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_People%27s_Volunteer_Army_order_of_battle
    (this listing is so large it takes considerable time to just scroll to the bottom)

    This is the order of battle for Chinese People’s Volunteer Army during major periods of hostilities in the Korean War. After the People’s Republic of China entered the Korean War in October 1950 by designating the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) North East Frontier Force as the People’s Volunteer Army (PVA),[1] the PVA spent the next two years and nine months in combat operations and five years and three months in garrison duties. Its last elements did not leave Korea until as late as 1958.[2]

    During this period, China paid a huge price for its involvement in the Korean War.[2] According to Chinese archives, about 73 percent of Chinese infantry forces, 67 percent of Chinese artillery forces, 100 percent of Chinese armored forces and 52 percent of Chinese air forces were deployed in Korea at one point or another, alongside 600,000 civilian laborers – in total more than three million civilian and military personnel.[2][3] Out of those forces, around 152,000 were killed, 383,500 were wounded, 450,000 were hospitalized, 21,300 were captured and 4,000 were missing. Of the captured 14,190 defected to Taiwan after the ceasefire.[3] China had also consumed 5.6 million tons of war materiel, 399 aircraft and 12,916 vehicles for its war efforts.[2] About a third of the Chinese government’s annual budget was spent on the military between 1950–53, totaling 10 billion RMB by the war’s end.[4][nb 1] All in all, the Korean War was the largest foreign war in Chinese military history, despite the fact that no declaration of war ever existed between China and United Nations forces.[3]

  53. jim2 says:

    Adrian – All the historical (and moral?) context is interesting, but beside the point. As a US citizen, I want what’s best for me, my family, and my countrymen. This idiot Kim is a real threat. I want him and his taken out. Unfortunately, this will mean some innocents die, but I’m sure that will be minimized to the extent possible while accomplishing the mission. Wars will never end, but given that, I want to be on the winning side.

  54. Larry Ledwick says:

    Prepper interest is up given recent events apparently.
    It is a good excuse to do a periodic review of such things for those who only think about it occasionally I guess.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-doomsday/doomsday-sale-u-s-survivalists-stock-up-as-disasters-roil-the-planet-idUSKCN1BX2TD

  55. E.M.Smith says:

    Just one Korea comment at the moment. More in a little bit:

    https://chiefio.wordpress.com/2017/04/16/korea-a-legal-context/

    United States abrogation of paragraph 13(d)

    Paragraph 13(d) of the Armistice Agreement mandated that neither side introduce new weapons into Korea, other than piece-for-piece replacement of equipment.

    Now the USA has also breached this part since most of the equipment there now is “new weapons”. So the armistice is already technically over just on that point, HOWEVER…

    Clearly the development of nuclear weapons by N. Korea also breaches that part of the armistice so also ends it.

    Which means the state of active war is resumed and the UN Forces (lead by the USA) can resume bombing anything they feel like. N. Korea agrees with this position, BTW, claiming USA breeches mean they are at active war with us and can do whatever they want.

  56. Adrian Ashfield says:

    EMS,
    America started it. They introduced nuclear weapons long ago, then subsequently withdrew them.

    “the United States moved its nuclear weapons out of South Korea in 1991 as part of a bid to persuade North Korea to allow the IAEA to inspect that country’s nuclear sites. At the time, Pyongyang and Seoul also jointly committed to making the peninsula free of nuclear weapons.”

    “However, it is widely believed that Seoul pursued nuclear weapons covertly in later years. In 2004, the country acknowledged secret nuclear experiments to the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA). Partly because of such experiments, some military experts suggest that South Korea might be able to develop a nuclear weapon in as short a time as 18 months, the conservative newspaper Chosun Ilbo reported last year.”

    Neither side wanted to end the truce agreement so turned a blind eye to the transgressions. The bottom line is that N.Korea does NOT want to attack anyone, but is fearful of an American attack.
    Any military action would be a huge disaster. Warmongers here WANT to attack N.Korea.

  57. I think it would be good for S.Korea and Japan to have a few nuclear weapons as a deterrent.

    Coincidentally, today is forecast to be the end of the world ;-)

  58. Larry Ledwick says:

    Any military action would be a huge disaster. Warmongers here WANT to attack N.Korea.

    They see it as they “Need” to attack North Korea, as a preemptive move to stop something much worse happening.

    They recognize that there is no good out come right now because the window of opportunity to deal with North Korea effectively was squandered by multiple previous administrations with their pipe dream solutions that really only pushed the problem down the road so that some other administration could deal with it.

    They are looking for the least worse solution because the best solutions are long since lost to wishful thinking.

    This problem goes back to the 1970’s when President Carter did nothing following the seizure of the USS Pueblo. That taught the North Korean’s that they could get away with almost any act of war if it was small enough and intermittent enough and that the US and Japan would avoid conflict at all cost.

    Similarly in 1994 the Clinton administration used the carrot and stick approach to try to lure the North Koreans into responsible behavior. Their carrot was a nuclear capability.
    In effect the current nuclear threat from North Korea is literally a self inflicted wound where we gave them the capacity to manufacture it.

    http://www.heritage.org/report/the-clinton-nuclear-deal-pyongyang-road-map-progress-or-dead-end-street

    North Korea is like the manipulative child that knows if he screams loud enough Grandma will give him the candy even if mom says no. Eventually that spoiled brat grows up into a violent dangerous young adult which will simply beat up grandma to get the candy.

    A lot of people think this is the last best chance to fix this problem. That fix will probably involve some serious slapping around of the young punk, but to avoid that just ensures that in a few years we have a bigger even more dangerous problem on our hands.

    Pay me now or pay me later. Some pain now or a whole lot of pain later.

  59. Larry Ledwick says:

    In other news, things are changing in Saudi Arabia as the new King continues to ease old social constraints and open society in SA.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-saudi-nationalday-women/national-celebrations-open-saudi-sports-stadium-to-women-for-first-time-idUSKCN1BY0KY

  60. Lionell Griffith says:

    AA: “America started it.”

    When you cherry pick the start date, you can claim anything you want. How about a full account of the history of the conflict with a full accounting of who did what to whom? Otherwise your claims carry no validity.

    I suspect the start was a conflation of aggression from Communist China, Northern Korean terrorists, and Korean Government corruption. My personal opinion is that the US should have simply let the parties fight it out on their own and limited the spillover into adjacent nations. The worst possible thing was to wage a war blindfolded and hands tied. If we had a good reason to be there, the war should have been total and devastating with little left standing as we did with Japan and Germany in WWII. If not, we should have stayed out. The so called UN Police Action was a costly and deadly mistake.

    Consider: “He started it! But he stole my candy bar. But he knocked down my block castle first. But he wouldn’t let me play with the blocks and we are supposed to share. But he wouldn’t let me play with his toys….” Both need to clean up their mess and have a good long timeout. The “start” of the argument began long before the claimed violation Yes, nations can act like spoiled children except their toys are far more dangerous to self and others

  61. EMS,
    I have now read your long link from your last comment.
    It seems to me that it shows the law is often an ass. That a legal decision is often no more than an opinion, or based on some precedent going back to the Magna Carta. Neither is proof that the decision is just or logical.

    As I wrote earlier, the problem started with dividing Korea in the first place. After that, no outside country should get involved in a civil war. It is no good pretending it was a “police action,” America had decided it wanted to roll back communism and it was politically motivated.

    Removing all the crap, the fact is North & South Kore have not been fighting each other for half a century. I don’t care what the piece of paper says. Consider how long it was between WW1 (the war to end all wars) and WW2. What good did the treaties do? What counts is who STARTS the war. T hey are always the aggressor whether it is claimed to be pre-emtive or not.

    You seem to claim (forgive me but I didn’t feel like wading through that long post again for the actual quote) that you need a treaty or it is permissible to attack another country. I couldn’t disagree more strongly.

  62. p.g.sharrow says:

    If you want to understand how we got here, you must study ALL of the history involved.from both points of view. The present has evolved from the events of the past. The future will evolve out of the events of both past and present. While many people will claim strong opinions on a subject, very few will take the time and do the study necessary to fully understand their subject.
    The present condition is the result of the aftermath of WW2 and the Americans from the south and the Soviets from the north driving out the Japanese Imperial Army from Korea. The Northerners have been single mindedly trying to force unification under the control of their military dictatorship or Kingdom…pg.

  63. Lionell,
    The army was given permission to USE nuclear weapons on N. Korea in the Korean war.

    “The U.S. history of nuclear weapons and Korea dates back to the Korean War, when President Harry S. Truman debated using nuclear weapons to stanch the China’s Thanksgiving counteroffensive. The following spring, nine nuclear bombs were transferred to Okinawa [4], along with nuclear-capable B-29 bombers, in case the decision was made to use them. Truman went so far as to predelegate authority to use the bombs to Gen. Matthew Ridgway, commander of U.S. forces in Korea, but Ridgway declined to use them.”
    http://scout.com/military/warrior/Article/The-History-of-US-Nuclear-Weapons-in-South-Korea-107229766

    US Nuclear weapons were first based on the Korean peninsula in 1958,
    But of course that wasn’t considered “aggressive” compared with N.Korea test firing a missile and developing their own nuke, to prevent being bullied by the US. Just a few days ago American bombers armed with nuclear weapons were flying close to their border as part of the large scale “exercise” to practice invading them.

    I wonder how America would feel if China did the same thing from Mexico.

  64. jim2 says:

    Adrian says: “You seem to claim (forgive me but I didn’t feel like wading through that long post again for the actual quote) that you need a treaty or it is permissible to attack another country. I couldn’t disagree more strongly.”

    To whom do you go to ask permission to go to war, Adrian? Look at history. No permission is needed.

  65. Jim2,
    “To whom do you go to ask permission to go to war, Adrian? Look at history. No permission is needed.”

    What EMS apparently inferred was that without some kind of treaty it was OK to attack another country. That is what I disagree with. It is NEVER OK to attack another country and those that do should be tried and executed.

    I get the feeling that the war mongers here, on other blogs and in the government have never experienced war. My mother and her two sons were sent to Jamaica in 1939 while my father stayed in England. My mother decided she wanted to be by my father’s side and we returned in 1942. The convoy from New York started out with 42 ships and 26 were sunk on the way over by a U-Boat pack. I saw the bombing in London and it was nothing like as bad as what America did to Vietnam, Cambodia and Korea. The Germans didn’t have carpet bombing in those days.

    Several here have said they don’t care about the feelings of people in other countries as long as they are safe. That is just sick. I know what it is like to be bombed. It is that attitude that allows America to start 13 wars and kill millions of people over the last 30 years. That allows them to commit war crimes without ever being prosecuted. It is why we spend $700 billion in 2018, not on defense but to wreck other countries and people’s lives. The only winners are the the industrial military complex. What they do makes you less safe as it breeds terrorists. There is no danger of another country going to war against America except in retaliation of being attacked. America spends as much on weapons as the next seven countries combined. It also exports $billions of this misery to other countries.

  66. Another Ian says:

    And on tax changes

    http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/2017/09/oh-shiny-tin-po.html

    and comments

    Maybe someone should introduce the Canadian government to the Laffer curve?

  67. Another Ian says:

    “Brilliant Summation of Why the Far Left’s Agenda is Doomed”

    http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/2017/09/brilliant-summa.html

  68. E.M.Smith says:

    Taking some of Adrian’s points in a bit more detail:

    OK, I read the Margolis stuff. Not very well thought out. Take one simple example:

    “Amazingly, six decades after the end of the 1950 Korean War,” from the first one and the NAME of the second one is:
    “/end-the-korean-war/”

    Well, pick one. Either it never ended and needs ending or it is 60 years after the end. It can’t be both. Anyone with that inability to see blatant illogic in their statements has very cloudy thinking indeed.

    But, OK, I read it. Not much in of interest. Mostly hand wringing and emotional bleating with a POV.

    Per N. Korea being “bullied”: Um, they started it. The UN via the USA and S. Korea (and a bunch of allies) reacted. CHINA then came in, in massive force, as the actual bully in the group. But whatever. The thing you are skipping over is the nature of the countries and their leadership. What do they want. N. Korea / China did not then want peace, they wanted world domination by International Socialism (AKA Communism). There was a global and massive aggression then in an attempt to achieve the Marxist Dream (Or have you forgotten the context of the Cold War, the fall of China into communism, the absorption of Eastern Europe into communism against their will, the march of China and China by Proxy attempting a south Asian communism, Cuba pushing communism all over Latin America, etc. etc. There is your fundamental “bully” in the whole thing.

    (Though really “bully” isn’t the right term Bullies are piss ant wanna-be sociopaths with a budding Schadenfreude at best. We’re talking full on power mad dictators with delusions of grandeur and a desire to take over the world here.)

    So yes. The non-communist non-socialists of the world wanted to stop that particular steamroller from crushing countries one by one until the whole world was consumed. Yes, that involved saying “not here” about a few countries and having them be wars the USA was involved in. Compare places like Cambodia under Pol Pot as the alternative. Millions slaughtered as they didn’t want to do communism and dared to just say so.

    But you would like to have a very selective window into history and a very careful choice of the “start of time”.

    As a resident of the USA and paying attention since the Korean War era, I can tell you with certainty that nobody in the regular old lower and middle classes wants to invade any other country or go kill people if they are not in some very significant way a direct threat to us and our freedom. That’s why politicians have to works so hard to “sell the war” they want. To make it “popular”. For Korea it was less of a sell as we were still naive enough to trust our leaders then and we thought supporting a UN action was a good thing. By Vietnam we knew better, that the UN was not such a good deal, and that politicians were not very good generals and didn’t care much about actual grunts. (Part of why folks like Trump. We’re pretty sure he DOES car about as Deplorables.)

    Don’t get me wrong. It’s been a process of continuous improvement. Since the killing fields of W.W.I where the European approach was to feed more millions of bodies to the machine guns and it took a while for the USA to figure out they didn’t cherish our soldiers as much as we did and so demanded different arrangements; to the present where we’ve gotten most of the casualties (on our side) out of wars. So yeah, more were killed in the Korean War and Vietnam wars than now. Largely that reflects the American People saying “We will trust you to run a war IFF you demonstrate true and strong actions to keep our soldiers alive.”

    “They killed 2.5 million Koreans and flattened every major city with more bombs than used in WW2. ”

    Golly, you have discovered that war is about killing the other guy as effectively as possible. Good for you. So what. Yes, we were figuring out it was better to use lots of air power, bombs, and machines and not get so many of our soldiers killed. Gee, we learned from W.W.I and W.W.II. I’m good with that.

    BTW: Note again that you keep talking about FEELINGS that are irrelevant to battle. It enters into politics somewhat, but mostly as something to be manipulated. In General: For both all things military and political (unless you are running the propaganda ministry) it is best to use zero grade on feelings. All they do is cloud judgment and confuse thinking.

    “Now you are saying THEY shouldn’t stand up to the bully?”

    So you continue in your pursuit of the “bully” emotional hook. Dead end. At the nation level there are no “bullies”. Like I said above, bullies are the baby toy wanna-be step on the road to psychopathic dictator. By the time you reach the top of the heap, that “bully” metaphor is about as applicable as talking about “spilt milk” if one country nukes another one. BTW, it also has no emotional “hook” to me either. I have fixed my problem with bullies. I now know how to deal with them and I’m quite happy with them. I can control them and, if needed, flatten them. (On one occasion had a decent grip on a throat and took pity on the guy, not wanting to kill him, just squeezed enough to back him off and make him realize I owned him… Rather Zen moment in a way. No fear. No hate. Just some pitty and a feeling like I’d rather not have to explain his death.)

    Now per N. Korea “standing up to the bully”: Would that be China? No? The defeated Japan post W.W.II? No? The UN?… No, the bully is the street thug with a set of brass knuckles demanding to get his way and beating folks up if they don’t give in. Ignoring the cops. In this case, the UN were the Cops and the USA was the Top Cop. The guys getting told to stop invading their neighbor and beating them up was the bully. That was N. Korea and China By Proxy in a communist expansion. Now? China has had a taster of Capitalist Money and is not quite as interested in The Old Ways. They have a semi-trained attack dog in Kim Jong Nutjob and are thinking maybe he’s more trouble than he is worth, now. We’re saying they need to fix their dog or put him down, and if they don’t, he’s a threat to the neighborhood and we’ll shot him if he gets off leash.

    (See, both of us can play the emotional loaded imagery game…)

    “America has fought 13 wars in 30 years at a cost of $14.2 trillion.”

    Oh, good, you can count. So? BTW, might want to look at the exact wars in question, who all else was in them, what the motivations were of the sides, etc. etc. It matters. More than the accounting. IF you don’t like what the UN has voted to do, why don’t you say so? (And take it up with the UN…)

    ” There is no reason to think N.Korea would attack first. They show no sign of being suicidal like some religious groups. ”

    Really? You don’t think stating you intend to attack the USA, starting a program to build nukes and missiles to do it with, testing the nukes and missiles, stating publicly a target of Guam, launching a missile of that range, etc. etc. is “no sign”? Gee “I hold in my hand this paper, guaranteeing peace in our time!” comes to mind… Per “suicidal”: No, the sociopathic / psychopathic type (they’ve been combined into one category by the Psych folks now) doesn’t realize their suicidal path. They expect to just get their way by torturing and murdering others. See the relatives and Generals of Kim who have been publicly murdered in gruesome ways. So no, not suicidal at all; delusional leading to a “suicide by cop”.

    More in the next installation.

  69. Lionell Griffith says:

    Adrian, is there ever a situation in which you think a forceful SELF defense is justified?

    If not, why not?

    If so, what would be the situation and what would be the extent of the force you would use?

  70. Larry Ledwick says:

    The US Navy just took delivery of a new Nuclear Submarine the USS Colorado (SSN-788) a Virgina Class block III boat.

  71. E.M.Smith says:

    History is written by the winners but I have read that dictator Rhee, egged om by America and its domino theory was largely responsible for provoking the N.Korea attack. I wasn’t there and don’t know.

    Well, since there were no winners, who wrote the history? It was a stalemate ending in an armistice (but not an end of the war, just a ‘stop in place’ and wait.)

    So a nice debate tactic, but low on the information content side.

    Yes, the USA, then, had a policy of propping up western leaning dictators to block the communist advance. I’ve never really liked it. Then again, every time we let one fall or took him out so “Democracy” could flourish, the result has generally not been beneficial (either to us or to the world or even to the people of that nation. Examples: Shah to Religious Dictatorship. Egypt: Several cycles of Dictator, Riot, Religious upheaval, Dictator; pick one of many. There’s a couple in Latin America too like Cuba… where the Castro’s were not a real improvement over Batista. So while I would have loved to have seen a genuine grass roots domestic Democratic Republic in each of those, it never happened. (Why is an interesting question. Was it the dynamic of USA / West vs Communism / East power politics, or just that the places were not developed enough yet to stand on their own? I’d guess some of each. But it was what it was and neither side was a good choice, IMHO.)

    In the end, though, it did eventually result in the half of International Socialism’s advance via military means. (It has since shifted to more subtile means). So despite the grief and deaths and moral repugnance, the Propped Up Dictator seems to have stopped Aggressive Communism.

    (Then Daddy Bush and the Clinton’s set about trying to undo a bunch of those residual “Strong Men” and the result has been chaos across North Africa into the Levant. )

    I don’t think anyone has figure out how to peacefully transition from a Despotic Dictator to a Democratic Republic. (Either Left of Right…)

    I do know that millions were killed, many of them by American bombs.

    Congratulations (again) on that ability to count and the ability to realize America learned how to fight wars with fewer of OUR side getting killed. That being the purpose of war fighting, to kill their side without your side getting killed. Oh, and yes, we make our own gear. What, you wanted us to use Japanese or Brazilian made bombs? Would it matter?

    Half the deaths were civilian and I wonder how many of the troops really wanted to fight AS sual the warmongers got away unscathed. (I know America never does anything wrong and only kills bad guys. Anyone killed is a bad guy by definition.)
    Korea should never have been divided in the first place, it should have been freed. But the big bullies had other ideas.

    Sniditude becomes you…

    But where’s the beef?

    Way Back When, wars had no distinction between civilian and military. After thousands of years, SOME folks now make that distinction and we even have Geneva Conventions about it. But it’s taken another 1/2 century to get precision bombs and better intel gathering and such so as to reduce civilian casualties. Yet even there, if you bomb a tank making factory, you are mostly killing civilians… Just sayin’…

    Now you want to have a hypothetical where Korea was not divided? OK… Take that up with Soviet Russia… We knew during W.W.II that the International Communism espoused by the USSR was expansionist and it was going to be the next round of World Domination to halt. It is only a very thin line between International Socialism (Communism) and National Socialism (like the National State Socialists of NAZI Germany). But were expansionist and both wanted domination of the world. Would have have had us just hand over Western Europe to the USSR post W.W.II and hand over Asia to China? Fold our tent and go back to the Americas? (Oh, wait, they were here wanting the Americas too…)

    Nice fantasy, but in reality it was necessary to halt the expansion of International Socialism if we were to retain our lives, country, etc. etc. So no, I’m not going to re-litigate the end of W.W.II (were we to do so, I’d be on the side that wanted an immediate and strong confrontation with the expansionists, despite it being unpopular and the country being war-weary. Had we done that, the whole Cold War oppression of Eastern Europe would have come out better (and maybe been avoided) and China’s neighbors could have avoided much grief (Free Tibet anyone?). But that’s a hypothetical too. Do you really want to play “Dueling Hypotheticals?” If so, I claim dibs on the hypothetical where the USA wins W.W.II a month after Hitler invades the Sudetenland and then we over run the USSR in the next month… /sarc;

    “I’m having trouble with posts disappearing too.”

    Found one in SPAM, fished it out.

    “You don’t think it is sociopathic to attack another country, kill and wound millions, for no good reason. like America did to Iraq?”

    Nice distractor, but not relevant. Iraq had clearly been rolling over neighbors, had invaded Kuwait and was headed for the oil fields of Saudi. UN approved the whole deal. On the “round two” under Baby Bush, we had questionable intel, and still do. Some folks whine about “NO WMDS!!!!” but in fact he had and used “WMDs”. Poison gas is classed as a WMD and it was clearly in use. (It is believed toward the end of one of the wars a load of nuclear, biological, and toxics stuff was run in a caravan into Syria. The truth of that is only known the participants and a couple of nations with really good spys. My suspicion (and it can only be that) is the real reason we got that whole Syria thing kicked up by Madam Clinton and The One was chasing that story.)

    But there is a strong difference between “Intel was wrong” and even “Intel was fabricated for effect to take out a real threat” and “He’s a nutjob”. You did not have the Bush’s (nor The One) executing folks for public display for petty criticisms (or even for just falling asleep during a speech). So no, I don’t see any of them as “sociopathic” (though I reserve a small possible for The One – he has some sociopathic traits but hides things well so hard to say for sure). On the flip side, both of the Bush’s clearly have high empathy for others so fail to meet the criteria. They also learn from the past which Kim seems to fail at. There’s a few more like that too.

    http://www.decision-making-confidence.com/sociopath-symptoms.html

    Superficial charm and good “intelligence”
    Absence of delusions and other signs of irrational thinking
    Absence of “nervousness” or psychoneurotic manifestations
    Unreliability
    Untruthfulness and insincerity
    Lack of remorse or shame
    Inadequately motivated antisocial behavior
    Poor judgment and failure to learn by experience
    Pathologic egocentricity and incapacity for love
    General poverty in major affective reactions
    Specific loss of insight
    Unresponsiveness in general interpersonal relations
    Fantastic and uninviting behavior with drink and sometimes without
    Suicide rarely carried out
    Sex life impersonal, trivial, and poorly integrated
    Failure to follow any life plan

    Note that invading countries and killing and wounding millions are not on the list of traits.

    Now, to your real question: Do I LIKE that the USA invades other countries and kills folks: No, I don’t. I also don’t like prostate exams and colonoscopies, but you do what is needed to stay alive and healthy.

    BTW, it wasn’t “for no good reason”. It was for very good reasons. One can argue over the evidence and argue over the desirability of things like regime destabilization as a moral issue, but there were reasons and they were pretty good ones.

    “Wrong. Only if one side breaks the armistice agreement. N.Korea hasn’t.”

    I already covered this one, but you retorted with fault finding aimed at the USA. So, please note: It doesn’t matter if the USA violated it first or not. North Korea HAS CLEARLY VIOLATED IT WITH NUKES. Period. Full stop. This isn’t like arguing over who got the last cupcake on the table. It is more like asking if two folks in a street fight committed battery. BOTH can do it and BOTH did.

    Now the salient point here is that means the armistice IS broken and that means war is resumed. Both sides have generally chosen to avoid a hot shooting match out of that fact, but both sides have cheerfully cited the broken agreement as grounds for equipment and troop swaps and more. So first you said one side has to break it, and N, Korea hasn’t. Yet BOTH sides broke and N, Korea most certainly has. So in any case my point remains. It is broken and bombing by either side can commence at will as no formal end of the war was ever made.

    “Can you explain why it is peaceful for America to have 7,200 nukes and test fire thousands of missiles, but it is an aggressive act for N.Korea to do 1/1000 of the same thing?”

    Yes. We have not been running around like a nutjob killing our people in the public square for nodding off and threatening to blow up our neighbors and everyone else if they don’t give us a few $Billion. He has. We have a history of ending belligerencies and handing sovereignty back to the people of a land, he doesn’t. We have the UN voting to say our use of force is approved (in almost all cases since Korea) he doesn’t. We have a history of Democratic Republican control (only recently marred under Clinton and The One with rule from the oval office being too common; though tarnished under Baby Bush with either some bad intel or some machinations by the TLAs that didn’t get hidden well enough).

    Then there is “What is the alternative?”. Here you have a choice of “Let everyone have them” vs “keep the nuclear club as small as possible”. So far we’ve got 73 years of “small as possible” working out well for the world. Want to play “Bet The World!!!!” on the stability of Kim Jong Nutjob and / or the Ayatollahs? I don’t. One is by doctrine suicidal, the other is clearly a fantasy prone individual with evident

    Unreliability
    Untruthfulness and insincerity
    Lack of remorse or shame
    Inadequately motivated antisocial behavior
    Poor judgment and failure to learn by experience

    Basically, humans are “Pack Animals”. They only seem to work well where there is ONE Alpha Pack Leader. Now we’ve got two places who think grabbing nukes and using them on folks is the way to become a local Alpha Pack Leader. (Anyone who doubts Iran’s intent to nuke Israel or N.Korea’s desire to use nukes for prestige and gain has as many screws loose as those leaders…) I’ve played the “placate and appease and beg to get along” game more than I care to remember in retrospect. It simply Does Not Work. The Alpha just sees at as reason to bite the Beta. What works is a quick and forceful kick to let them know they are not the Alpha.

    (Do I LIKE that? Do I WANT that? Not at all. In fact, for 18 years I didn’t even believe it. Kept trying the rational / reasonable approach. “Diplomacy”. It works with other rational reasonable people, but not with psychopath / sociopath types. For them, it’s Only One Alpha and if it isn’t you, it must be them. So you have to make sure they now it isn’t them. It is sad, but true. In fact, so sad I named the SAAD Doctrine after thinking about it.)

    So, in short, “we” (and France and the UK and Russia and China and India and Israel) are OK having nukes as we are not driven by that Alpha Dog Need. ANY country that is, needs to have a change of leadership or removal of nuclear capacity. Otherwise they WILL use those nukes to prove they are the Alpha. They can do no other.

    “So no, I don’t give a rats behind about how they feel..”
    That is the American view. It doesn’t matter how many are killed or wounded. Senator Lindsay Graham actually stated that recently.

    Pardon, but you have distorted my words. I did NOT say I don’t care how many are killed or wounded. I said I don’t care about how they feel.

    FEELINGS are entirely orthogonal to figuring out the best Military Action or Diplomatic Action. (They can give insight into Political motivation and help Political decisions and they can help with Diplomatic Strategy). So for N. Korea we are clearly way past the point where Diplomacy can do a damn thing (hasn’t for 50 years) and well past the point where Politics is going to get anything done (though Trump may be able to swing China a little). The only reasonable thing to do with FEELINGS is shit can them when you are about to work out a military solution or diplomatic action (like sanctions). The only relevant bits are things like “Will it work?” and “What is the cost?”.

    I think the manner in which the USA has conducted wars has shown us to generally try as much as technically possible to minimize casualties on our side, of civilians, and on the other side as soon as they get enough clue to give up.

    “In any case, “Not my problem”. My problem is exactly and only how to remove a paranoid nutjob from running a nuclear state”
    So why shouldn’t another country, say Russia, use the same argument to wipe out America?

    Because our Government is not run by a nutjob. It is run by a 3 branch distributed collective. And, frankly, were our President shooting his staff in public with antiaircraft guns and having his relatives poisoned in airports and generally being a murderer and our Congress and / or Judiciary didn’t fix it, then I’d hope they WOULD use that logic to remove such a nutjob as I’d not want to live in a country run by the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, or Kim Jong Un.

    “When you have been pushed into the role of World Cop against your will, folks won’t like you. ”
    Polls show that the majority of the world wishes America would stop that. They are acting more like rogue cops, sometimes for the benefit of corporations. Show me what good has come out of the 13 wars compared to the terrible loss of life, limbs and property.

    Ah, the Mystery Hypothetical Pole approach. Just when were all 7 or so Billion people polled? And what happened to my ballot?

    And again, you can count. OK, we’ve already got that.

    What good? Oh, I don’t know, how about a Free and Independent Western Europe (not including much of Eastern Europe after the Cold War end), a free and independent Britain (and all their former colonies). An Australia not speaking Japanese. A South America determining their own fate (and not so much collapsing under crushing unending Communism – though they do like to play with it every generation or two to relearn why they don’t like it – see Venezuela this cycle), an intact Israel. I’m sure there’s a lot more but this is already too long and I’m guessing just which wars you are talking about. (Yes, the whole Muslim Jihad War thing is still a work in progress. These things take time. But I’d hazard adding survival of Saudi and their oil supplies to most of the world as one of the benefits along with only a tepid and 5th column invasion of Europe by Islamists as another.)

    Back after tea…

  72. EMS,
    Thank you for responding. Of course I think have missed the main points.
    Margolis writes well and I had no trouble understanding what he wrote. I didn’t see anything that illogical but I suppose the legal minefield of your earlier link might provide something. He knows far more about Korea than either of us.

    You’re the one that brought up bullying and feelings first. I find bullying applies quite well although there are other words I would use.
    America has been bullying N. Korea for years. I suppose it is some hangover of McCarthyism. The only good red is a dead red. You brush aside the ardent anti communist policies of the US over the years. It seems they still haven’t figured out that communism doesn’t work and will ultimately self destruct.

    You wrote: “But you would like to have a very selective window into history and a very careful choice of the “start of time”.”
    That is because the origins of the Korean problem are far back in time and now somewhat irrelevant. My point is that if the two sides have not fought for half a century it matters little compared with whether hostilities break out again.

    I think you are right about the majority of the American population not wanting wars. I don’t think the UN has much to do with that. It is the establishment coupled with the media that drum up support for war. I rather doubt the general population either knows or cares much about what happens abroad.

    You wrote: “Golly, you have discovered that war is about killing the other guy as effectively as possible. Good for you.”
    That is rather pathetic. It should be obvious that I’ve known about wars for longer than have been alive.

    Then you again go on about feelings being irrelevant. Pray tell why else someone would have in order to be anti war.

    You brought up bullying again. What would you call America’s sanctions to prevent N. Korea from developing the only effective defense against America? The US would love to have a united Korea in their pocket so they could bring missiles right up to China’s border, much as they do with Russia.

    “America has fought 13 wars in 30 years at a cost of $14.2 trillion.”
    “Oh, good, you can count. So?”
    It is a ludicrous amount of money that could have been spent on something useful instead of creating misery. I’m surprised you couldn’t see that.

    “” There is no reason to think N.Korea would attack first. They show no sign of being suicidal like some religious groups. ”
    “Really?”
    Yes really. So say many who have studied the problem.

  73. E.M.Smith says:

    @Jim2:
    https://chiefio.wordpress.com/2017/09/15/w-o-o-d-15-sept-2017/#comment-86825

    Well said. Just about sums it up.

    Up to here for Adrian:
    https://chiefio.wordpress.com/2017/09/15/w-o-o-d-15-sept-2017/#comment-86848

    “America started it. They introduced nuclear weapons long ago, then subsequently withdrew them.”

    “Started it”? Started WHAT? N. Korea started the war. China started the expansion of it against UN forces. The UN, USA, et. al. were in reaction mode until the Armistice. Post Armistice N. Korea had a boatload of violations and China was flooded in mainline and fighting a proxy war. The armistice was already well and certainly violated. Had it not been there was no need for USA nukes.

    But frankly that is 100% IRRELEVANT. You seem to have trouble with that concept.

    See, here’s the thing about an armistice as opposed to an end of the war via peace treaty: The war is not over. It never ended. It was just an agreement to hold in place by two military organizations. Nobody can “start it” after that as it never stopped. Each side can have violations, and either side can break the agreement. It all means essentially nothing other than that a hot war can restart if the other side desires to get into the mix. China tried going big time into War By Proxy (a violation) and we countered with Nukes Are Here (a violation) and both sides decided NOT to go hot. Nothing ever stopped, so nobody “started it” again.

    BTW, most likely the N. Korean nukes are an outgrowth of the Japanese Nuclear bomb program. There’s very good evidence they tested a small device in Korea (now N. Korea) but it was too late. We were already dropping ours on them. But it does explain the long time it took between the first and second nuke for them to surrender. They thought we only had one as the Special Nuclear Material is so hard to make. So they thought they might have time to get one of theirs usable. We dropped the 2nd and said we had LOTS more (a bit of a fib) and they folded. But just how much “know how” stayed in N. Korea after the surrender is unknown…

    Now particularly interesting about that Japanese side bar is it acts as an existence proof of what it takes to stop an early stage Nuclear Power Wanna-be. Words and threats don’t cut it. Bashing them very very hard does.

    So unless you want every little tin pot dictator who can master 1940s physics and technology to be threatening you with nukes (and eventually somebody will use them), then you must be in the Occupational Birth Control business on new nuclear powers.

    And when one slips through that barriers, SAAD is the solution. Rather like it was in W.W.II Japan.

    “Neither side wanted to end the truce agreement so turned a blind eye to the transgressions. The bottom line is that N.Korea does NOT want to attack anyone, but is fearful of an American attack.”

    It was NOT a “truce”. The difference is very important.

    Per N. Korea being all warm and fuzzy and friendly: Did you not see / read the news about Kim wanting to Nuke Guam and threatening to burn the Pacific Fleet (or the shelling of S. Korea or all the other incursions…)

    @Larry @:
    https://chiefio.wordpress.com/2017/09/15/w-o-o-d-15-sept-2017/#comment-86850

    Exactly so.

    They see it as they “Need” to attack North Korea, as a preemptive move to stop something much worse happening.

    They recognize that there is no good out come right now because the window of opportunity to deal with North Korea effectively was squandered by multiple previous administrations with their pipe dream solutions that really only pushed the problem down the road so that some other administration could deal with it.

    They are looking for the least worse solution because the best solutions are long since lost to wishful thinking.

    My checklist:

    Is the government a One Man Dictatorship without effective checks and balances?
    Check

    Is that One Man Dictatorship hostile to the USA (or even a MAD opponent and the risk is a counterstrike ooopsy)?
    Check

    Is there clear evidence of the desire to use Nuclear Weapons?
    Check

    Is there clear evidence of possession of Nuclear Weapons now or imminently?
    I’d say setting them off counts as a Check.

    Is there clear evidence of a delivery system able to deliver them?
    Check. (Orbital capacity means global reach. They have put a blob on orbit.)

    So, at that point, you have an unreliable unstable leader, hostile to the USA, with stated intent to nuke us, with no effective internal controls, with a Nuclear Weapon and with a delivery system. So the only thing standing between me and nuke is a nutjob issuing the launch codes? Um… Oh Dear…

    At that point I’m quite happy with anyone doing anything to disrupt any of those steps, including ‘decapitation’ strikes to take out Dear Leader and Counterforce Strikes to take out the capacity . Preferably Swiftly. With enough overkill to be Assured. And so fast and effective as to be Asymmetrical in impact. Destruction of the ability the goal.

    Adrian’s solution is to talk to the crazy kid nicely and ask him to put down the hand grenade…

    As I wrote earlier, the problem started with dividing Korea in the first place. After that, no outside country should get involved in a civil war. It is no good pretending it was a “police action,” America had decided it wanted to roll back communism and it was politically motivated.

    Yes, the law is an ass, but it is still the law. No, we can’t go back to a fantasy world where Korea was not divided. Yes, I would rather we’d not let Russia and then China have the top half, but World Wars are hell like that. As per the UN Posturing, take that up with the UN and the Global Community. I have to take them at face value (even if 2 faced values…)

    Yes, we decided to “roll back communism” (in fact, stop the rabid spread and domination of the free world). You say “Freedom and Liberty” like it was a bad thing…

    “North & South Kore have not been fighting each other for half a century. I don’t care what the piece of paper says.”

    OK, you are “off the reservation” for all things treaty, armistice, precedent, law, etc. etc. Got it. Now, WHY have they not been fighting each other? Think it might have something to do with that massive US Military presence, the Pacific Fleet, and our Nuclear Umbrella? Hmmm? Just maybe?

    “What counts is who STARTS the war. T hey are always the aggressor whether it is claimed to be pre-emtive or not. ”

    Well then, you agree that it was North Korea that was the problem as they started the Korean War that has never ended only had a hold forces in place armistice called. Or is it China that started the War By Proxy when the UN Forces were essentially wrapping things up on a win and imminent peace? Oh, you want to plant the Start Flag at some other convenient place of your choosing after things were already well hotted up? Gee, I wonder why…

    You seem to claim (forgive me but I didn’t feel like wading through that long post again for the actual quote) that you need a treaty or it is permissible to attack another country. I couldn’t disagree more strongly.

    Unfortunately, when it comes to law, nothing is ever very short or simply clear, so yes, a posting about law (especially the murky international law of armistice) is going to be long and likely convoluted. Reality is like that.

    So as to what I “claim”: I claim nothing. I attempt to figure out what things say. What they say is that a Peace Treaty ends a war and an Armistice just is a halt of hostilities in place while the Peace Treaty is negotiated. Not my words, theirs. And the rules of Armistice are that if violated, the counter-party may choose to instigate hostilities again.

    So you can “disagree” all you want, but it isn’t with me. It is with the definition of an armistice and the international law surrounding them. Good luck with that.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armistice
    (bold mine)

    “An armistice is a formal agreement of warring parties to stop fighting. It is not necessarily the end of a war, since it may constitute only a cessation of hostilities while an attempt is made to negotiate a lasting peace.”

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/armistice
    (bold mine)

    temporary stopping of open acts of warfare by agreement between the opponents”

    Repeat until numb…

    Now an armistice MAY mark the end of a war by everybody just giving up and going home and forgetting about it, like the W.W.I Armistice, but I think it is pretty clear that isn’t what happened in N. Korea.

    But believe what you want, just don’t ask me to accept broken definitions and personal quirks or desires.

    “Lionell,
    The army was given permission to USE nuclear weapons on N. Korea in the Korean war.”

    Good. Probably prevented a massive Chinese invasion and slaughter.

    “Just a few days ago American bombers armed with nuclear weapons were flying close to their border as part of the large scale “exercise” to practice invading them.”

    OK, two propaganda points in one. First off: Please inform us how you know they were “armed with nuclear weapons” since nobody but the chain of command knows that. Perhaps you meant to say “nuclear capable but maybe with no active armed weapons at all, only conventional, or only dummy loads as it is only an exercise”? Second, why on God’s Earth would we EVER want to INVADE N. Korea. It’s a hell hole. Just decapitate and de-fang and hand it to China. Invasion would be Stoopid and Trump isn’t stupid. Please show us your copy of the US Military orders stating a battle plan with an invasion on it, otherwise you are just MSU. (Making Stuff Up.)

    “I wonder how America would feel if China did the same thing from Mexico.”

    What same thing? Maybe set up a base (like on the entrances to the Panama Canal?) or take over international waters and convert them to a military base via artificial islands and threaten to sink anyone going into “their” waters? Near as I can tell somewhere between “nothing” and “send some ships 12 miles away and claim it means something”…

    Besides, China is our friend now. Didn’t you get the memo about Eastasia being on the ins and Eurasia being on the outs with Oceana?… It’s been in all the papers and on the TV News about that whole Russia Bad / China Good thing…

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nations_of_Nineteen_Eighty-Four

  74. beththeserf says:

    ‘Yes really. So say many who have studied the problem.’
    That ol’ consensuss appeal to authority ‘n numbers.

    ‘Why 100 authors? If I were wrong one would have been enough.’
    Einstein.

  75. Larry Ledwick says:

    There is no reason to think N.Korea would attack first.

    Then why have they repeatedly attacked first with no provocation?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_House_raid

    Seized the USS Pueblo a commissioned US Naval ship on the high seas at gun point.

    (note this happened just days after the blue house raid) January 23, 1968: The United States Navy intelligence ship USS Pueblo is attacked by North Korean naval forces employing Soviet-built DPRK fast patrol boats and is subsequently boarded and captured, along with its crew, in the Sea of Japan. The entire crew of 83 is captured, with the exception of one sailor killed in the initial attack on the vessel, and the vessel was taken to a North Korean port. Tortured during their imprisonment, all the captives were released on December 23 of the same year via the Bridge of No Return at the DMZ.

    October 30, 1968: From October 30 to November 2, 120 to 130 North Korean commandos land on the northeast shore of South Korea, allegedly to establish a base in order to wage a guerrilla war against the South Korean government. A total of 110 to 113 were killed, seven were captured, and 13 escaped. Around 20 South Korean civilians, law enforcement officers, and soldiers were killed.

    April 15, 1969: A U.S. Navy EC-121M Warning Star reconnaissance aircraft is shot down 90 miles (140 km) in international waters east of the North Korean coast, leaving 31 dead.

    December 11, 1969: North Korean agent Cho Ch’ang-hǔi hijacked a Korean Air Lines YS-11 flying from Gangneung Airbase in Gangneung, Gangwon-do to Gimpo International Airport in Seoul. It was carrying four crewmembers and 46 passengers (excluding Cho); 39 of the passengers were returned two months later, but the crew and seven passengers remained in North Korea. The aircraft was damaged beyond repair on landing.

    There are over 75 such incidents not counting 6 nuclear test shots which were in violation of the armistice agreement and UN resolutions.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_border_incidents_involving_North_Korea

    Not to mention foreign assassinations and kidnappings.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-38974455

    The fact is that north Korea has been in continuous violation of the armistice agreement for 64 years ranging from border provocations to deep intrusions in to South Korea with armed troops, and emplacement of land mines beyond the DMZ, They have broken every agreement they have made since the armistice was signed, often multiple times.

    There is a reason we have armed troops who continuously patrol the DMZ to prevent/detect infiltration by NK troops and agents. This has been a simmering conflict just below the threshold of active military operations for 6+ decades.

  76. E.M.Smith says:

    “I didn’t see anything that illogical”

    So in one saying “ended 60 years ago” and in the next breath saying “end it” (that requires it not be ended) isn’t lacking in logical consistency to you? OK….

    “You’re the one that brought up bullying and feelings first. ”

    NO. I brought up bullies as an example of the sociopathic mind set and to illustrate where I learned about it. Feelings are irrelevant and I essentially ignore them.

    “You brush aside the ardent anti communist policies of the US over the years. ”

    No, again. I don’t brush them aside. I embrace them and endorse them. I don’t want to live under a Central Authority Communist Rule.

    “My point is that if the two sides have not fought for half a century it matters little compared with whether hostilities break out again.”

    So cross border shelling, capture of ships, etc. etc. is “not fighting”. OK…

    “That is rather pathetic. It should be obvious that I’ve known about wars for longer than have been alive.”

    I’m assuming you had an “I” in there as object? “… than I have been”? Or whom? Though knowing about something for longer than you have been alive is a bit of a problem… Perhaps you can make a sentence of it…

    “Then you again go on about feelings being irrelevant. Pray tell why else someone would have in order to be anti war.”

    Well, I’m having trouble making a sentence of that 2nd half as well. Perhaps “Pray tell what other reason someone would have in order to be anti war”? Well, because it is destructive of lives and property. It is rarely a good thing. It is usually brought about by an unrestrained sociopath / psychopath reaching the level of Dictator without effective limits and controls. It is wasteful of lives and resources. But my point about emotions was not general, it was more specific to the problem solving stage. Once you have your winky in the wringer, being upset about the pain is not as important as figuring out where the release catch is on the rollers…

    Do realizes I’m 100% anti-war. I want there to be No Wars Ever. Every single life is precious and not one ought be squandered to advance the desires of another person.

    The problem is in the execution.

    See, there are these other folks who happily kill others, send them to their deaths, destroy property and lives, all for their own self aggrandizement and personal pleasure. I had the luck of meeting one such at about 4 years old. We were about the same age and he was living across the street and 2 door down. (He was later “done in” by either the local Neo Nazi or the local KKK – I forget which – for “giving them a bad name” at about 18 years old.) So early on I came to the understanding that there were “people like him”. It has served me well as I came to observe the larger world. A good 40? or so years later I learned the terms for such folks. Sociopath / Psychopath.

    Unfortunately, that particular type of person is well equipped to rise to power in hierarchical organizations. They tend to be dominant at the top executive levels (see Martin Shkreli as a recent example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Shkreli ) and so you find them often at the tops of Government. I’ve gotten reasonably good at spotting them, though the good ones still elude.

    So, much of history and much of government structure has been about them and how to prevent them screwing the rest of us over.

    Now I’d love to live in a Neville Chamberlain World, but it isn’t going to happen. Having learned that (globally and the hard way) I see no reason to repeat the lesson.

    Further, knowing that the Sociopath / Psychopath type has certain traits and behaviours, and knowing that they do not go quietly into that good night, when one is running a Nuclear Weapons State: the only reasonable, rational, and PEACEFUL answer is to utterly obliterate them.

    Do I like that? NO!
    Do I want that? NO!
    Do I think that is horrible? YES!

    But it is the only thing that works.

    So for the better good of the majority, the Tin Pot Dictator with Sociopathic Tendencies needs to get blown up.

    Typically his own country can’t contain or control him, so it falls to the Rest Of World to do it. So Far the USA has had a decent run of preventing them from running wild (though we’ve had our moments. FDR was close in some ways. Jackson in others relative to Native Americans) while Rome was rife with them (Nero anyone?) and European History is largely their history. Kings and Emperors and Invaders, Oh My!

    So yes, I’m 100% anti-war. I’m also about 80% anti-sociopath. (About 20% of the time they actually do reasonably well running countries and companies, not getting all wound around the axle on irrelevancies like feelings and how much their actions hurt some minor group… Yes, I learned that “feeling too much is dysfunctional” from watching them so learned how to ignore “feelings’ when they are not productive. But for me it is a rational choice from having too much empathy, for them it is an absence of empathy at all.) I suspect that’s the “leap” you have not made. From what you feel to knowing when to ignore what is felt.

    “What would you call America’s sanctions to prevent N. Korea from developing the only effective defense against America?”

    A last political / diplomatic gasp before we admit the only real solution is to turn the little psychopathic turd into a smeared footnote of history.

    “The US would love to have a united Korea in their pocket so they could bring missiles right up to China’s border, much as they do with Russia.”

    Um, not really. We already have missiles right up to their border. Subs can go way close. ICBMs and similar have very short flight times. Stealth lets us wander around inside without really much stopping us. Frankly, taking North Korea would be a lot of work for no real gain in terms of threat to China. As I’ve said several times, IF we take out the top, hand it to China and make it their problem.

    “It is a ludicrous amount of money that could have been spent on something useful instead of creating misery. I’m surprised you couldn’t see that.”

    Never said I didn’t see we could do a lot of good with the money. Only I’d note that we were not really given the alternative choice. Your hypothetical is that there was rampant assured peace in the world. Unfortunately, that peace comes at a price and is neither rampant nor assured. Sure I’d like to have that money spent on doctors and water treatment and education and medical care and more. UNfortunately, if you don’t spend it on that military force, the other things cease to exist at all…

    Oh, and on the idea that Kim will just be a lamb if only the Big Bad USA were to just go away: Good luck with that. It isn’t in the nature of the personality type nor is it evidenced in the history of the type in the world. They take all they can get and go for world domination until stopped at the cost of great lives and treasure.

    I agree that the present solution is lousy and flawed. I just have seen zero evidence of anything better. Having an Alpha Dog who is reluctant to be Alpha and only doing it to keep the peace in the pack is about the best we seem able to do with the present state of humanity. I spent a good 18 to 25 years trying to find an alternative before I realized it wasn’t going to happen. Since then things have worked much better… So when the sociopath / psychopath starts to be a Royal PITA, the best we can do is snip his nuts off and / or send him to the doggy recycle plant. OK, I’m not going to lose sleep over it as I know of nothing else that works. YMMV, but please cite an existence proof of your alternative elsewhere in the Real World before expecting me to sign on.

    SideBar:

    Sometimes the best you can do with one batch of Alpha Wannabees is sick a Really Big Dog on them. That is why the people of the USA elected The Donald. Sure, he has issues. But he also loves to go around nipping at the balls of Alpha Wannabees and letting them know they are only a Beta. He’s also generally a pretty nice guy with decent morals who loves America. I’m good with that. Besides, he’s MY big dog…

  77. EMS,
    ” Nobody can “start it” after that as it never stopped. ”
    No fighting for 60 years and it never stopped? Really?

    ” It all means essentially nothing other than that a hot war can restart if the other side desires to get into the mix.”
    The hot war only starts when America attacks N. Korea. It doesn’t take two to start it.

    No small state can be safe from American regime change unless they possess nukes. I didn’t say that was a good thing.

    “Per N. Korea being all warm and fuzzy and friendly: Did you not see / read the news about Kim wanting to Nuke Guam and threatening to burn the Pacific Fleet (or the shelling of S. Korea or all the other incursions…) ”
    I don’t think N.Korea is all warn and fuzzy. Left alone they will change in a generation or two. They are not a stupid race.

    “Adrian’s solution is to talk to the crazy kid nicely and ask him to put down the hand grenade…”
    Not so. Stop threatening them with war games, sanctions and insults and they will build a few ICBMs but will not use them. Ultimately economics will be Kim Jong-Un’s downfall. Right now the people are behind him because they do feel threatened.

    “OK, you are “off the reservation” for all things treaty, armistice, precedent, law, etc. etc. Got it. Now, WHY have they not been fighting each other? Think it might have something to do with that massive US Military presence, the Pacific Fleet, and our Nuclear Umbrella? Hmmm? Just maybe?”
    What was signed by dead men 60 years ago is of little consequence now. I don’t know whether N.Korea would have attacked without the US nuclear umbrella. That exists and so N.Korea will not attack now either. The only thing to start a war again is for America to attack N.Korea.

    “So as to what I “claim”: I claim nothing. I attempt to figure out what things say. What they say is that a Peace Treaty ends a war and an Armistice just is a halt of hostilities in place while the Peace Treaty is negotiated. Not my words, theirs. And the rules of Armistice are that if violated, the counter-party may choose to instigate hostilities again.”
    That is not what yo said earlier. You implied (and still do) that it is legal for America to attack N.Korea without warning, because of a 60 year old piece of paper. I disagree. It is morally indefensible to start another war after such a long time when Korea has not attacked anyone.

    ” Please inform us how you know they were “armed with nuclear weapons””
    It was reported by the media and makes sense if you are really practicing for an attack.

    I think war is evil and the leaders of first attacker should be tried and executed. You and the other commenters here take the typical American view that America has every right to kill off any other country that might be a threat or even doesn’t do as they are told. Of course America only attacks defenseless countries and not those who have real threat capability like Russia and China. It’s the American way.

  78. Larry Ledwick says:

    Of course America only attacks defenseless countries and not those who have real threat capability like Russia and China. It’s the American way.

    Actually no we do not. We just want these A- – holes to stop trying to kill us and our friends.

    We do believe if someone wants to kill us and repeatedly attacks us that it is much better to take the fight to their front yard than to wait for them to show up in our front yard.

    We also believe in centuries old conventions of international behavior – that their are rules, and blatant violations of those rules require a response to make them stop.

    You asked earlier what we would do if China did the same thing in Mexico?
    We already handled that with Cuba,and the USSR they brought nuclear weapons into Cuba and directly threatened us with nuclear attack.

    Just like China has done with North Korea where they declared a buffer region of national security that they would not allow US troops to enter near the Yalu River, and Russia has done with Sevastopol, the home of their black sea fleet, we declared the territorial waters of the Americas as an area we would not allow a foreign power to base nuclear weapons in, and we made it clear we meant it. Thus Khrushchev backed down and took his missiles home and we in a secret agreement to end the stand off pulled our Jupiter missiles out of northern Turkey. In both cases major powers declared security interests in a buffer region and others agreed to concede that interest to maintain peace. In the case of Russia that early concession to them over their annexation of Sevastopol and the weak reaction to their incursion in Georgia simply encouraged them to move into Ukraine.

    Similarly in the 1990’s we pulled Pershing II missiles out of eastern Europe (which had been introduced to Europe in 1979 as a counter measure to the USSR’s already active SS-20 nuclear missiles which they had introduced in 1976 ) This was an effort to reduce nuclear warheads in Europe as part of the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty on 27 May 1988. The agreement negotiated to for Russia to pull out and dispose of their SS-20 nuclear missiles which had been in place since 1973 in exchange for our removal of the Pershing II’s.

    Thanks to Obama’s wishy washy behavior Putin has recently reintroduced intermediate range nuclear capable missiles back into eastern Europe in violation of that agreement.

    There is a constant friction between major powers to enforce reasonable concessions of national interest. This has been going on for thousands of years. Other countries do exactly the same thing. China insists on special treatment of Taiwan since they consider it a break away province of their country. Russia vigorously defends its border buffer areas with Europe the US enforces its security interests in the Caribbean and our treaty obligations to our allies. Everybody does it and has always done it. This is not some special aggressive behavior of America it is how all nations defend their security. Bigger countries are able to get bigger concessions than smaller countries. It is no different than any other situation where two or more countries work to find a compromise between what they need to feel safe and threatened and what they are willing to give up to get that guarantee.

    Like all contractual or treaty negotiations those boundaries constantly change as influence and power ebb and flow. Likewise the “rules of the road” have long established that sovereign nations have the inherent right to assert their security requirements and intentional law accepts certain Casus belli that justify use of force. North Korean threats and behavior is edging dangerously close to such a Casus belli and under international rules of war we have the right to take defensive action if they go too far. Rational nations try to avoid those friction points and make considerable effort to avoid crossing those acknowledged lines.

    One of those accepted Casus belli is seizing an opponents Navy ships at sea – North Korea has already broken this one with the USS Pueblo – we let it slide even though by the conventions of international law and rules of war we would have been fully justified if we had taken direct military action. Same for seizure of an embassy or protected residence or facility – that is why Benghazi is such a sore point for many Americans. Kidnapping of citizens same situation (North Korea has admitted to kidnapping Japanese citizens). North Korea has repeatedly make small armed incursions into South Korea yet to preserve the peace they have been given a pass on that behavior multiple times. They have shot down our aircraft multiple times the list goes on and on.

  79. E.M.Smith says:

    @Adrian:

    A very interesting response. but probably not for reasons you expect.

    You do a nice job of ignoring all I pointed out of merit.. OK, folks can work that out. So, for what you did choose to point at:

    “No fighting for 60 years and it never stopped? Really?”

    So the Pueblo was “no fighting”? OK…

    Shooting off nukes is “no fighting”? OK…

    There’s a lot more in the last 60 years, but… OK…

    NO, an armistice is “Never really stopped” by definition. You seem to have skipped over that part…

    “The hot war only starts when America attacks N. Korea.” OR N. Korea takes an aggressive stance like stating it intends to nuke Guam, launches missiles capable of reaching there with throw weight and sets off nukes of that capacity. Do you really insist on waiting until Guam is a glowing cinder in the Pacific Night to recognize the threat? Was one Pearl Harbor not enough?

    “No small state can be safe from American regime change unless they possess nukes. I didn’t say that was a good thing.”

    Exactly backwards. ANY small state is safe from America UNLESS it posses nukes. Clearly unclear on the whole Alpha Dog thing… An Alpha Dog only cares about other threats to Alpha status. The Betas are irrelevant.

    “I don’t think N.Korea is all warn and fuzzy. Left alone they will change in a generation or two. They are not a stupid race.”

    We don’t have a ‘generation or two’. We have about 6 months, max. Nobody said the RACE was stupid. Only that Kim Jong Nutjob was a sociopath / psychopath. But nice attempt at a misdirection.

    “they will build a few ICBMs but will not use them. Ultimately economics will be Kim Jong-Un’s downfall. Right now the people are behind him because they do feel threatened.”

    Oh, right, not use them because their leader is such an enlightened soul and they have several branches of government in balance… RIiiiight… /sarc;

    The people are “behind him” because to NOT being 100% behind him gets you shot as a national demonstration…. even for family.

    “What was signed by dead men 60 years ago is of little consequence now. ”

    Do you listen to yourself? So the US Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, the Magna Carta, the Constitutions of most of our states, these are all “of little consequence now”? OH GOD…

    So all contracts end in one human lifetime? Got it… /sarc;

    “So as to what I “claim”: I claim nothing. I attempt to figure out what things say. What they say is that a Peace Treaty ends a war and an Armistice just is a halt of hostilities in place while the Peace Treaty is negotiated. Not my words, theirs. And the rules of Armistice are that if violated, the counter-party may choose to instigate hostilities again.”
    That is not what yo said earlier. You implied (and still do) that it is legal for America to attack N.Korea without warning, because of a 60 year old piece of paper.

    I’m sorry but what is the difference between “any party can instigate hostilities” and “legal for America to attack”?

    Adrian, I’d like to think you are a person of good moral character and decent intelligence, but claims of things that are obviously false make that hard.

    An Armistice is an agreement to “stop hostilities in place” and it IS the case that either party can start again if the agreement is breached. BOTH paries have breached the agreement so EITHER party is legally able and allowed to restart attacking the other without warning or any other process. It is equally legal for North Korea to put a nuke in one of their subs and drive it up the Potomac and utterly destroy Washington D.C.

    This isn’t a partisan statement. It is a statement of protocol.

    It is perfectly OK for North Korea to attack the USA with nuclear missiles from a legal / treaty / armistice POV. I’m not being a Jingo in this. I’m being a Geek.

    ” It is morally indefensible to start another war after such a long time when Korea has not attacked anyone.”

    And that’s the point you missed… it isn’t “another war” by DEFINITION it is The Same War that never ended only had a pause in an armistice. I know you don’t like it, but legal niceties matter.

    “It was reported by the media”

    Oh, well then. I guess it’s proven. Along with Big Foot, that Brad and {who is it this week?} have broken up / gotten back together, that Martians have taken over Obama’s brain (WAIT, that was last term…) and that Hitler is alive and living in New Jersey under the pseudonym Bloomberg…

    OK, clearly you hate America. God only knows why:

    I think war is evil and the leaders of first attacker should be tried and executed. You and the other commenters here take the typical American view that America has every right to kill off any other country that might be a threat or even doesn’t do as they are told. Of course America only attacks defenseless countries and not those who have real threat capability like Russia and China. It’s the American way.

    Um did you miss the part where I said I think war is evil too? But often unavoidable….

    “Typical American View”? When you find that “typical American” please let me know. There are more varieties of American View than I care to think about. My Daughter is a Hard Left Vegan Agnostic. My Son is an Evangelical Right Wing. My spouse is a Catholic Conservative and I’m a … well, I’m not sure what I am. Buddhist leaning middle of the bird pragmatist is probably the best fit. So what is this “Typical American” and where can I find him, er her, er it… ? Inside ONE family 4 folks with almost NO agreement. So what was that about “typical’ again?…

    “kill off any other country that might be a threat”

    Um, what part of “Kill or be killed” did you not understand in Darwin School?….

    “Of course America only attacks defenseless countries and not those who have real threat capability like Russia and China. It’s the American way.”

    So, Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan don’t count? Oh, sorry, you want to “start time” after that “for effect”… Got it. So the USSR doesn’t count? Oh, sorry, you want to ignore stalemates “for effect”… Got it. So Iraq “biggest army since” whatever doesn’t count because we won handily… Got it. So China today doesn’t count because it hasn’t reached the boil yet… Got it…

    I don’t know what your POV or “agenda” is, but clearly you have zero clue about how much the typical American absolutely HATES our role as World Cop but understands the necessity of it.

    There were 4 of us in my High School Clique. Three went into the military (during the Viet Nam Era) One ended up driving tanks around West Germany. One ended up fixing Jet Turbines at Moffett Field in Mountain View, Ca. One ended up dead of testicular cancer after working on Navy Radar units with the radiation shields removed, and I ended up in Silicon Valley playing with computers.

    Do you really think I don’t wonder about my dead friends? Not just the one working on radars but those who never came back from Viet Nam? My older sister’s friends from the Korea era? The guys who went to The ‘Stan or Iraq and are part cyborg now? I’m interested in robotics ONLY from the POV that maybe I can make them more whole again. I’m the very lucky one and I own them all a huge debt that I can’t pay.

    You have no Fucking Clue what the “American Way” is and you can never know.

    I feel guilty every day I am alive and my friend is not and every day I walk on two feet and my friends can not and every day I don’t find a way to defeat IEDs and…

    We are a “band of brothers” even if we have never met each other and whatever our origins. My wife’s Dad was 101st airborne into Normandy. My Dad was Combat Engineers into Utah Beach ( I think, it is a bit confounded) about the 2nd day. (Yes, I married the 101st Airborne Drill Sargent’s Daughter… you have No Idea how much that “lit me up” when i found out his history… as I said “May I”… )

    G.Damn poser. You have zero clue.

  80. p.g.sharrow says:

    the way that Adrian proposes is the one that Liberal progressives have always followed. When threatened run away. Nothing is worth the risk the dangers of confrontation. There will be no war if you refuse to fight.
    Kim Jon Un has learned that American politicians will run if threatened enough. He wants the Americans to abandon the South so he can reunify the Kingdom under his rule. Just like was done in Indo China in the 1970s when after the North gave up and signed a peace treaty, the Democrats forced the victorious American military to abandon the area to the communists. Communists have been agitating for the Americans to abandon South Korea since the mid 1950s. In the media and Universities, a steady drum beat of anti war, anti patriotism, anti military. I have listen to their creed for 65 years. They are the fools, tools of their overlords brainwashing…pg. .

  81. Larry Ledwick says:

    By the way technical note on this whole risk thing.

    Flight time of a nuclear armed ballistic missile from N Korea to Guam is about 9 minutes.

    Think about that for a minute!
    IR satellites would see the exhaust plume and identifiy it as a probable missile launch in the first 30 seconds of so of flight. At a minute or so into the flight the missile would rise high enough to be picked up by multiple tracking radars. After watching the trajectory for a bit they would calculate the probable point of impact and send a warning of a confirmed missile launch with confirmation that it is a threat. That leaves maybe 2 minutes for a human to trigger alerts and begin to ready ABM systems of a threat. Some short time after that they would get an approval for a shoot down attempt. Flight time to intercept might be 4 minutes or so which means they will proably only have one opportunity to launch intercept and still be with in the allowable intercept window.

    By the time they confirm if or not the intercept was successful I would guess 6 minutes will pass from the time of the offensive missile launch. If those intercepts fail they will have about 3 minutes to wait before the warhead detonates.

    In short this threat is a cocked gun to the head serious situation. One very minor fumble in that chain of detection, confirmation initiate intercept cycle decision to intercept and we lose the most important Pacific base we have at Guam.

    The physics of the situation demand hair trigger response and no-do overs.

    Not the type of situation that encourages leaders to pause to reflect on what is the best course of action. Any highly reliable indication that a launch is about to occur aimed at Guam with almost certainly result in a massive defensive response to eliminate the threat.

  82. Tony Hansen says:

    What does ‘middle of the bird’ mean? I tried to think it out and got nowhere- so I looked it up and got no further.

  83. David A says:

    E.M. thank you for consistently taking the time to answer the ” blame the U.S. always” thought process. Adrian, although I do not agree with your perspective, your representation of such common ideas is helpful in seeing the obvious and dangerous flaws, best summed up by, in a generation or two the problem will go away. ( Damm Adrian, study Rummels thesis on Demoicide, ” death by government” and the history of wars. The problem rarely just goes away, and immense courage, sacrifice, violence and resources have been necessary. When those that support the ideals of property rights and individual liberty step back, hundreds of millions have died. ( Just in the 20th century) Once the US withdrew from the “bad” war called Vietnam, did the victors move in and have a peace party with their southern brothers no longer fighting? Well sort of, AFTER MURDERING well over a million non-combatant citizens. AFAICT the protest hippies did not offer one protest for their fate, or for the slaughtered millions in Cambodia.

    Has this world outgrown the tragic need for war? Sadly no.

  84. Tony – not right-wing, nor left-wing, just middle of the bird….

    Though I also hate wars, and think there should be a better way of resolving differences, there are times when violence is the only reasonable option. “Nice” people won’t start a fight, but there is a sizeable number of people who aren’t nice and will do so. You’ll see this on a small-scale in bar-fights. You’ll see it on a larger scale in gangs roaming the cities at night, where as a lone person not in the gang you don’t have the option of being nice if they attack you; you have to go all-in and disable those who attack you.

    Reality is not as we would like it to be – reality just is. At the moment NK is saying (in the UN itself) that it is inevitable that they will launch their nukes at the States (or at least Guam which is close enough for them to actually hit easily). It makes sense that the US should stop this happening.

    Border disputes come along with borders, in that people would always like to have more resources and that bit of land there may provide them. There are always disputes about resources, though civilisation has developed better ways of dealing with them.

    With NK, we’re up against a person I can’t understand. I can however see that he’s dangerous, and that people who disagree with him or could be a threat tend to have short and unhappy lives. I don’t know what bits of the news about it are truth, but my daughter does know a guy who managed to escape so I suspect there’s a lot more truth than lies in what the media reports. People just don’t risk their lives to escape from Paradise, after all.

    If you like police states and everyone going in fear of being arrested and disappeared for a minor infraction, then let NK achieve their aims. For me, I’d rather have the freedoms we do have. It’s not perfect, but dissent doesn’t get you killed.

    It boils down to a dispassionate appraisal of the risks of leaving NK alone or destroying their ability to harm us. Appeasement has had disastrous results in the past, and looks to be a bad option. Kicking ass, on the other hand, is proven to work. It may not be nice, and it may not feel civilised, but it works. The question is really how much punishment is sufficient to achieve the aims. Here, we’re faced with a situation where it’s them or us that gets hit. I’d rather it was them.

  85. jim2 says:

    Adrian said: “I think war is evil and the leaders of first attacker should be tried and executed.”

    Well, after Sadam started wars with the countries around him, it took a war to “execute” him. I’m not sure I would want the US to go after him if there were a do over. At least not with our blood. Maybe just bomb him and his into submission instead? But you do see the problem with your statement, don’t you?

    You have illuminated a good point though. If every tin pot dictator and otherwise every country on Earth had nuclear weapons, do you really think that would make nuclear war less likely? I don’t see how, in fact, it is more likely some sociopath would start one. Therefore, the US needs to show that simply obtaining nuclear weapons won’t make you safe. We need to defang NK of its nuclear weapons!

  86. Larry Ledwick,

    “We do believe if someone wants to kill us and repeatedly attacks us that it is much better to take the fight to their front yard than to wait for them to show up in our front yard.”

    How did Iraq or Libya or Afghanistan attack America? They didn’t. (I think 9/11 was largely a Saudi operation.) If America want a regime change they will even use a false flag pretext like the Gulf of Tonkin.

    “You asked earlier what we would do if China did the same thing in Mexico?
    We already handled that with Cuba,and the USSR they brought nuclear weapons into Cuba and directly threatened us with nuclear attack.”

    Ah! Don’t do as I do, do as I say. Of course N.Korea should bow to American military threats as America is never aggressive and would never dream of regime change.

    .America promised Gorbachev they would not move into the various countries he released from the USSR. You know what happened.

    The USS Pueblo was a spy ship that mistakenly entered Korean territorial waters. I rather doubt America would allow spy ships in our territorial waters and would shoot down spy planes that flew over America. Remember the USS Liberty? America didn’t defend that ship because it was attacked by the Israelis. And that was in international waters. If the Koreans had done that it would have been war.

  87. EMS,
    “So the Pueblo was “no fighting”? OK”
    It was a spy ship that entered their territorial waters by mistake. You don’t think America would have done the same to a spy ship entering our waters? Or possibly just sunk it.…

    Shooting off nukes is “no fighting”? OK… ”
    The United States conducted around 1,054 nuclear tests by official count, including 216 atmospheric, underwater, and space tests.
    Don’t do as I do, do as I say?

    ““The hot war only starts when America attacks N. Korea.” OR N. Korea takes an aggressive stance like stating it intends to nuke Guam, launches missiles capable of reaching there with throw weight and sets off nukes of that capacity.”

    See above. Our President has also threatened to flatten N. Korea, but it is ony the Korean threats that should be taken seriously?

    “Exactly backwards. ANY small state is safe from America UNLESS it posses nukes.”
    Oh yes? Remember how Mosaddegh the democratically elected prime minister of Iran was deposed. or the bombing list…

    Korea and China 1950-53 (Korean War)
    Guatemala 1954
    Indonesia 1958
    Cuba 1959-1961
    Guatemala 1960
    Congo 1964
    Laos 1964-73
    Vietnam 1961-73
    Cambodia 1969-70
    Guatemala 1967-69
    Grenada 1983
    Lebanon 1983, 1984 (both Lebanese and Syrian targets)
    Libya 1986
    El Salvador 1980s
    Nicaragua 1980s
    Iran 1987
    Panama 1989
    Iraq 1991 (Persian Gulf War)
    Kuwait 1991
    Somalia 1993
    Bosnia 1994, 1995
    Sudan 1998
    Afghanistan 1998
    Yugoslavia 1999
    Yemen 2002
    Iraq 1991-2003 (US/UK on regular basis)
    Iraq 2003-2015
    Afghanistan 2001-2015
    Pakistan 2007-2015
    Somalia 2007-8, 2011
    Yemen 2009, 2011
    Libya 2011, 2015
    Syria 2014-2016

    “Do you listen to yourself? So the US Constitution, the Declaration of Independusion ence, the Magna Carta, the Constitutions of most of our states, these are all “of little consequence now”? OH GOD… ”

    A Constitution is not in the same class as a treaty between different countries. Those change with the circumstances.

    “I’m sorry but what is the difference between “any party can instigate hostilities” and “legal for America to attack”? ”

    It is illegal to attack another country under international law. Laws you apparently hold in high regard.

    “Adrian, I’d like to think you are a person of good moral character and decent intelligence, but claims of things that are obviously false make that hard.”

    Likewise.

    “It is perfectly OK for North Korea to attack the USA with nuclear missiles from a legal / treaty / armistice POV. I’m not being a Jingo in this. I’m being a Geek.”
    As pointed out before, it is illegal under international law. That is basically what the UN was created for, to prevent.

    “OK, clearly you hate America. God only knows why:”
    Not so. I like America. That is why I live here. I think the American people are basically good. I can’t stand America’s bellicose foreign policies and several other features of the government.

    “So, Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan don’t count? Oh, sorry, you want to “start time” after that “for effect”… Got it. So the USSR doesn’t count? Oh, sorry, you want to ignore stalemates “for effect”… Got it. So Iraq “biggest army since” whatever doesn’t count because we won handily… Got it. So China today doesn’t count because it hasn’t reached the boil yet… Got it… ”
    No, you haven’t Got it. In my view both Germany and Japan fired first, so their leaders should be tried and executed. Of course if you are attacked you should fend yourself. That is fifferent from starting the war.

    “I don’t know what your POV or “agenda” is, but clearly you have zero clue about how much the typical American absolutely HATES our role as World Cop but understands the necessity of it.”
    The American populationdoesn;t much care. The establishment abd the military industrial complex need it toboost their power and wealth. If America truly didn’t want to be world cop they wouldn’t be. Polls show the rest of the wrld would rather America quit being a rogue cop. You apparently believe the propaganda that America can do no wrong.

    I’ll ignore the insults that followed. Please answer my earlier question. What good has come for the 13 wars in the last 30 years? Was it worth the death and destruction of millions? Couldn’t the $14.2 trillion have been put to MUCH better use?

  88. I’m sorry there are several typos in my last post but the program wouldn’t allow me to edit the and I didn’t want to type it out again.

  89. Further to “ANY small state is safe from America UNLESS it posses nukes.”
    read https://www.usni.org/magazines/navalhistory/2008-02/truth-about-tonkin

  90. “North Korea’s possession of nuclear weapons is preventing the the U.S. from launching a first strike against the rogue nation, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said in an interview.

    “The Americans won’t strike because they know for sure — rather than suspect — that it has atomic bombs,” Lavrov said Sunday on Russia’s NTV television. “I’m not defending North Korea right now, I’m just saying that almost everyone agrees with this analysis.”

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-24/north-korea-s-a-bomb-is-deterring-u-s-first-strike-russia-says

  91. E.M.Smith says:

    @Tony:

    Right Wing and Left Wing are separated by the middle of the bird…

  92. Larry Ledwick says:

    Ummmm quite a list you copied there – I have seen it many times before, it is the Marxist laundry list of alleged US imperialism. Most of those are also lists of countries subverted by Marxist governments or influence operations. You should assemble a list of all the countries Russia / USSR/ and China have destroyed or attempted to destroy it would include most of those countries and be even longer over all.

    You are taking the “attacking us” statement too literally, that “us” includes our allies.

    To get back to your specific question.
    How did Iraq or Libya or Afghanistan attack America? They didn’t.

    Poorly framed question it should have been.
    How did Iraq or Libya or Afghanistan put America and her allies at risk and provoke those events.

    Libya:
    Sponsored Terrorism through out the world for 40 years
    They made attempts to assassinate the leaders of:
    Egypt, Chad, Sudan, Zaire, Tunisia, Jordan, and Morocco
    Supported efforts to destabilize:
    Algeria, Senegal, Togo, Burkina Faso, and Sahel
    Supported hard line terrorist organizations with millions of dollars of aid:
    Abu Nidal Organization, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command, the Irish Republican Army
    Libyan travel documents were widely used by terrorist organizations as they moved operatives around the world.
    Libya provided training and refuge for multiple terrorist groups including the Irish Republican Army and the Japanese Red Army.
    Provided direct support for multiple insurgent groups in Guatemala, El Salvador, Colombia’s M-19, as well as groups in Pakistan, Bangladesh, and the Philippines.

    Was a direct sponsor of terrorism:
    Libyan state-sponsored terrorism 1988 bombing of Pan Am flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland, that killed 270 people.
    UTA bombing- 19 September 1989, UTA flight 772 exploded in mid-air over Niger, killing 171 passengers and crew. Among the victims was the wife of the US ambassador to Chad.
    1983 murder of British police constable Yvonne Fletcher. Fletcher was gunned down while on duty by shots fired from within the Libyan People’s Bureau in London.
    5 April 1986, Libyan agents placed a bomb in the La Belle Discothèque in West Berlin. Over 220 people were injured, including 63 American soldiers; 2 US servicemen and one Turkish woman were killed in the blast.
    Attempted to assassinate Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia

    Iraq:
    Invasion of Kuait
    In 1993, the Iraqi Intelligence Service (IIS) directed and pursued an attempt to assassinate, through the use of a powerful car bomb, former U.S. President George Bush and the Emir of Kuwait.
    Responsible for killing of several U.S. military personnel and U.S. civilians in the 1970’s.
    Sheltered Palestine Liberation Front (PLF), which engaged in attacks against Israel.
    Provided refuge for Abu Abbas, who carried out the 1985 hijacking of the cruise ship Achille Lauro and murdered U.S. citizen Leon Klinghoffer.
    Iraq sheltered and helped setup the Abu Nidal Organization, an international terrorist organization and used it to to assassinate Syrian and Palestinian opponents and which carried out terrorist attacks in twenty countries, killing or injuring almost 900 people. Targets have included the United States and several other Western nations. Each of these groups have offices in Baghdad and receive training, logistical assistance, and financial aid from the government of Iraq.
    Supported terrorism and the intifada by paying a bounty to the families of suicide bombers of $25000 .
    Provided extensive support to the anti-Tehran Mujahedin-e Khalq (MEK) and the anti-Turkey Kurdish Workers Party (PKK) as means of exerting pressure on their northern and eastern neighbors.
    Iraqi agents were involved in attempted bombings of U.S. facilities in Indonesia, the Philippines, and Malaysia
    Maintained a terrorist training facility named Salman Pak which provided training in how to highjack airlines and trains, using explosives in terrorist bombings and assassinations.
    At the time of the Iraq war, they were believed to be actively supporting al-Qa’eda, some connections have been confirmed, Abdul Hadi al Iraqi was a former major in Saddam Hussein’s military before relocating to Afghanistan, where he became one of Osama bin Laden’s top lieutenants in the 1990s Al Iraqi led al Qaeda’s elite Arab 055 Brigade, which fought alongside the Taliban in Afghanistan. Likewise Jawad Jabber Sadkhan a former Iraqi provided liaison between the governments of Afghanistan and Iraq.
    Provided refuge for the May 15 Organization—a Palestinian group known for bombing airplanes
    Actively pursued and used outlawed weapons of mass destruction including poison gas.

    Similar lists could be made for each of those countries, you seem to be blind to anything short of a massive tank assault or aerial bombing. Marxist revolutionaries and terrorists have been killing westerners a handful at a time for almost 60 years with the total death toll in the thousands. They are like the proverbial junk yard dog which has repeatedly made unprovoked attacks. At some point the dog gets put down because it is too dangerous to keep around.

    Since the US has mutual protection treaties with probably 60% of the world’s governments as a result of our dominant position in the world post WWII, we end up getting dragged in as the local street cop in all sorts of situations we would just as soon the locals handle but all too often we are the only country willing to try and put a stop to this continuous on going violence. If war is absolutely evil what do you call blowing up women and children while they are shopping for groceries with car bombs?

    I don’t agree with all those interventions and many are tainted by other agendas, but the same can be said of every government on the planet, especially Russia(USSR) and China who also have had their fingers in just about every subversive activity and over thrown government in the past half century.

    If you presented a balanced account and at least admitted that other countries do exactly the same thing your comments would receive a different response, but Americans are getting tired of this unrelenting “Its America’s fault” BS with no context in the the behavior of other governments.

    Cuba has been sponsoring Marxist revolution through out the world since the 1960’s and via funding from the USSR and Russia has been their proxy for destabilization in dozens of countries and supporting revolutions which have killed hundreds of thousands, but people chanting “Its America’s fault” never mention it (while wearing a T shirt with a Che Guevara picture on it who exported revolutions through out Latin and South America)

    They did not see the films or hear the stories of him enjoying executing people who Castro found troublesome because they opposed his brutal dictatorship where people feared his secret police so much, they would not even say his name, but used a gesture brushing their chin to signify “the beard” to refer to Castro.

    You can make such lists for every major country in the world, just because it is long does not mean it is relevant or a complete picture of the total situation. As the saying goes there are two sides to the story and for every alleged oppressive action by America you can build a long laundry list of “dog bite at the ankles” terror attacks and support of revolutionary over throw that impacted the US or her Allies. That sort of export of revolution has killed untold thousands and traces directly to the disaster in Venezuela but no one ever puts the blame for those disasters at Cuba’s or Russia’s door step.

  93. Larry Ledwick,

    Ah so, it is all an illusion. Americas never bombed those 33 countries listed.
    After all, EMS plainly stated no small country was in any danger from America unless they had nuclear weapons.

    As for the various attacks on America, look at all those burnt out military tanks, crashed war planes one sees along the highways, the whole cities that were flattened and the depleted uranium the kids lay with. One would have to be blind to miss them, right?

  94. Larry Ledwick says:

    Case in point, anti-fascist protester, wearing a T shirt commemorating one of the most brutal terrorists in the Americas who supported revolutions to install oppressive Marxist dictators.

  95. Larry,
    ps.
    “According to a September 2016 study by Alex Nowrasteh at the Cato Institute, a libertarian think tank, some 3,024 Americans died from 1975 through 2015 due to foreign-born terrorism. That number includes the 9/11 terrorist attacks (2,983 people) and averages nearly 74 Americans per year”

    Compare that with 30 – 40,000 traffic fatalites per year or 200,000 deaths due to medical mistakes each year. Not to mention the millions wounded and klled by America’s war on terror. The latter is what takes the prize.

  96. Lionell Griffith says:

    Adrian,

    Clearly, you have your position and many here don’t agree with it. The recitation of events of conflict without full context is unconvincing to those of us who disagree with you. Nor does our putting of those events into context appear to convince you. Apparently, no one is going to change their minds and no one seems to be learning much of anything. It seems such a wasted effort.

    I have a suggestion. How about starting with a statement of the standards and principles you use to make your judgments? This will help us understand how you reached your conclusions. Perhaps then we can find some common ground with which to examine the facts of the matter.

  97. Larry Ledwick says:

    Ah so, it is all an illusion. Terrorists never killed Americans. Those airplane parts scattered all over Lockerbie, Scotland did not exist either, neither did machine gun attacks at Rome Airport, The Kurds killed by poison gas are all imaginary too as are the graves of mass execution victims.
    Marxist revolutionaries never over threw a government and murdered 10s of thousands, or rounded up families and killed them in the streets or marched them to mass graves for execution. Those big piles of bones have always been there.

    Come on quit playing word games!

    All we are asking is you recognize some context. There are two sides to each of those listed countries. You may disagree with the decisions, I certainly do with many of them, but they have context and America is not the only country or group at fault.

    When you roll a column of tanks into a country and loot it, don’t be surprised if they get attacked by anti-tank weapons (DU penetrators). If they did not attack, they would not have been counter attacked, blame as you say falls on those who started the fight not those who finished it.

    How is a car bomb or a suicide vest not a bomb also?
    I imagine the Sailors on board the USS Cole consider that boat full of explosives was a bomb when it blew a huge hole in the ship killing their ship mates and nearly sinking it.

    Based on your lack of context, my only conclusion can be, that you support mass murder by governments and terror groups who kill and terrorize their fellow citizens as long as they are not American, and random acts of terrorism like car bombings or suicide bombings of weddings since you never mention them. You like wise, clearly support hijacking of aircraft, and brutal dictators who butcher their own citizens, or governments which randomly shell neighboring countries and sink or seize the ships of other countries in international waters or shoot down airplanes.
    You clearly have no problem with countries which kill their own citizens with poison gas or imprison their whole family for minor infractions in a prison system where prisoners can be brutally tortured or fed to the guard dogs if they screw up.

  98. Lionell Griffith says:

    Adrian,
    What level of death count caused by aggressive action would you say would justify a counter attack? What limits would you place on the severity of the counter attack?

  99. Larry,
    You refuse to use common sense and seem guided by your prejudices.
    From the CATO piece I posted above, if you take out the 9/11 casualties which I think was a Saudi plot, the AVERAGE annual deaths from terrorism in the the US from 1975 was 1 per year. Further, I believe most of those were done in revenge for perceived American actions abroad.

    How is God’s name can you justify the horrific death and destruction America has wrought in revenge? Perhaps you think one Jewish nail clipping is worth a 1000 goy lives. Apparently America thinks it is worth utterly destroying whole other countries for it.

  100. p.g.sharrow says:

    I have been listening to this communist agitprop for over 65 years. since the time of the Korean police action/war. Educated elites claim that American aggression was the cause of all the world’s ills . America even caused WW2 because they helped fight the expansion of world socialism. BULL CRAP! this rabid aggrandizement of the cancer of socialism has murdered 10s of millions of people over the last 100 years. Cursed generations to poverty with it’s lies of equality. and STILL they blame their bad outcomes on the resistance of the Americans to this acquired mental disease. Adrain are you a useful tool or a willing propagandist?…pg

  101. Lionell Griffith says:

    Adrian,

    We the People of the United States have a contract with our government that its PRIMARY duty is to protect our INDIVIDUAL lives, liberty, and pursuit of happiness and all that implies from initiation of force from both internal and external aggressors. If ONE life is lost as a result of said initiation of force, total devastation of the aggressor, his agents and his sponsors is justified. However, limiting the devastation to that necessary for the elimination of further threat is acceptable. We have nothing to gain by so doing but we do have much to protect.

    Further, if there is a clear and eminent danger of said aggression, preemptive strikes to achieve the same end are also necessary and fully justified. ALL the aggressor has to do to avoid our retaliation is to avoid initiating it in the first place. If, rather than trying to take what is not his, he is willing to trade value for value, we are more than willing to do business with him.

    It is by the fact that we have our fundamental individual rights, by our nature as humans and our necessary relationship to reality to stay alive, that they may not be violated by anyone or any group. We thereby have the MORAL RIGHT of self defense to the extent necessary to eliminate the possibility of further aggression.

    The fact that someone is offended by who we are and what we stand for is in no way a justification for the initiation of force against us nor prohibition for our exercise of our right of self defense. There is no such thing as a right to violate rights!

    Your agreement is not necessary nor is even your understanding. I suggest that, if you wish to stay alive and at liberty to go about your business, you avoid initiation of force against us. Clearly understand that event though you may not value your life highly, we do and hold that we have every moral right to remain alive without your interference and to stop you if you try!

    One more thing, you can stop your pretense that if we do something in error, we can never to anything right again. Further, you can stop pretending that it doesn’t matter what you say or do or what the consequences are, it only matters that you have good intentions. That and $3.98 will get you a cup of coffee at your local coffee house.

  102. pg,
    “Adrain are you a useful tool” I am not part of the plumbing.

    What you wrote was news to me. Socialism is different from communism. The latter has been proven not to work. Socialism is not so bad if done properly, like in the Scandinavian countries, that are viewed as some of the best places to live now.

    What you miss in your simplistic fury is that our economic system will have to change quite dramatically due to AI and robotics taking so many jobs. I also think LENR (aka cold fusion) is not far away too. Look for some dramatic developments later this year.

    What this has to do with N. Korea escapes me.

  103. p.g.sharrow says:

    Adrian Ashfield says:
    24 September 2017 at 9:33 pm “What this has to do with N. Korea escapes me.”

    of course it does…pg

  104. Larry Ledwick says:

    Larry,
    You refuse to use common sense and seem guided by your prejudices.

    And you refuse to recognize that the US cares about more than its own citizens, the number killed by terrorism and marxist revolutions since 1975 number in the millions.

    We try to stop those things in other places so they don’t become common in the US. You seem to think it is irrelevant that Of the 270 total fatalities in flight 103 , 189 were American citizens and 43 were British citizens (one of our closest allies), because they did not happen on American soil. That Cato article is intentionally constrained to ignore those fatalities and paint an intentionally false picture. That single event more than triples your count.

    America does not care if the victims of terrorism are American citizens or British citizens or peaceful Muslims on their way to visit relatives or shopping for chickens in a market in Baghdad, they still matter and are part of the total accounting of how dangerous a terrorist organization is.

    Do you ignore street thugs as long as they are only mugging people not in your immediate family?
    Would you ignore a person who only rapes little old ladies in the next town?

    American citizens are killed in terrorist attacks all over the world, we don’t ignore their deaths if it happens in another country. Leon Klinghofer was on an Italian luxury liner when he was murdered by terrorists. In the Bataclan concert hall terrorist attack Nohemi Gonzalez, 23 an American citizen was killed and at least 2 other Americans were wounded. It did not matter that she was hispanic origin it did not matter that she was on foreign soil, it only mattered that she was one of our own.

    The sailors killed in the USS Cole attack were not killed in the continental US but being on a US Navy ship it was the same as if they were shot in Central Park. Same goes for massive bomb attacks on several of our embassies. Eight of the 28 persons killed in a terrorist attack on an Egyptian Coptic Christian bus were family members of a family that lived in Chicago.

    When it comes to terrorist killings of Americans as a matter or official policy we practice Vendetta, (the politicians use different words but it is what it is). It might take 30 years but we will find who did it and bring them to justice if we can. In the case of Leon Klinghoffer we intercepted a plane the killers were on.

    http://articles.latimes.com/1985-10-11/news/mn-17022_1_italian-troops

    http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/u-s-bombs-libya

    Unfortunately it is the only language these brutal monsters understand (oh by the way the Russians do the same thing)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abduction_of_Russian_diplomats_in_Iraq

    http://blogbaladi.com/how-russia-responded-to-the-kidnapping-of-four-soviet-diplomats-in-beirut-in-1985/

    When you are dealing with sadistic monsters you have to get their attention first.

    Generous tit for tat is the only method that works reliably.

  105. Lionell Griffith says:

    Adrian,

    What is the color of the sky in your alternate universe? It must be a magical place where the impossible can be done by wishing and things can be changed into what they are not by not identifying them correctly. It must be filled with pink unicorns, peppermint candy trees, lemon aid rivers, and everything you need or want just appears without thought, choice, or action.

    In my world, a poison is poison no matter what flavor of KoolAid you use to hide its taste. Socialism and communism are different flavors of the same thing: totalitarian dictatorships. The only thing that really changes is the name on the door. They both consist of initiation of force against the individual. Brute force is expected to be the magic dust to create a brave new world of peace, love, harmony, and plenty. What is actually produced is poverty, despair, destruction, and death. They all get there by various paths and at various speeds but they get there. What is left out of the equation is that reality is real, things are what they are, and that humans require political, economic, and intellectual freedom to be productive in order to live and thrive.

    PS: You don’t need to answer my questions. I know quite enough about you from your 9:33 pm post. I know exactly how you arrived at your conclusions and what they all are. There is no there, there.

  106. catweazle666 says:

    Adrian, your trouble is that like all your fuzzy feelgood social justice warrior Left wing ilk, you don’t believe in human nature.

    Think on this, you can live in your cosy little bubble only because hard men do dark deeds on your behalf so that you continue to indulge in that unbelief with few or no negative consequences.

    They know you won’t thank them, and they know you despise them, and they know that you fear them, but they don’t expect you to do otherwise because they know you better than you know yourself.

    But they will continue to protect your cosy little bubble so that you – hopefully – will never have to see the things they see, feel the things they feel or know the things they know.

    As I say, think on.

    But, being the way you are, you won’t.

    And that’s a pity.

  107. Larry Ledwick
    “And you refuse to recognize that the US cares about more than its own citizens”

    “If there’s going to be a war to stop [Kim Jong Un], it will be over there. If thousands die, they’re going to die over there. They’re not going to die here. And [Trump’s] told me that to my face,” Sen. Lindsey Graham said. (Actually the estimates are half a million and up lives lost.)
    Sounds like America really cares about others losing their lives doesn’t it?

    “We try to stop those things in other places so they don’t become common in the US. You seem to think it is irrelevant that Of the 270 total fatalities in flight 103…”

    You don’t think placing a bomb on that plane had anything to do with the US trying to assassinate him and his family in1986? Isn’t it supposed to be against the law to assassinate other country’s leaders. ref https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2011/04/reag-a28.html

    I have better things to do than follow you down your rabbit holes.

  108. R. Shearer says:

    This company in Boulder used real scientists and real scientific methods and tools (unlike the likes of Rossi using kitchen scales and utensils and hardware store quality meters) to explore cold fusion reports. They find in almost all cases that reports of unexplained heat generation were due to measurement error or improper experiments. http://www.coolescence.com/

  109. David A says:

    Adrian, your consistent neglect of the repeated historic brutality of statism against other nations and on their own citizens, as well as the massive sacrifices and violence required to stop such evil precludes

  110. David A says:

    …precludes any ability to put US actions in context. Thus you remain ignorant of what happens in a U.S. withdraw power vacume. ( We saw a bit of thus under the O as he was both weak and enabling, and conflict creating and war like, seemingly with no end game in mind. Our role in the “Arab spring” was shameful under Obama.
    You entirely ignored the context give by Larry for specific U.S. actions you complained about, yet provided ZERO possible reasons for said U.S. action.
    ( If you did you would likely get them wrong. For example, the CIA supported regime change in Iran led to their greatest economic growth in their history)
    Quite unlike the O’s foray to execute the leader of Lybia.

    Context is everything, and your emotional conviction prevents any chance of learning.
    Your hope that the Korean nut job will do nothing would be very dangerous IF you were making decisions.

  111. David A says:

    What happened in Cambodia and Vietnam was a result of a US power vaccine. Sometime spend 40 or 50 hours reading a scholar like David Horowitz take on this and the complete inability of the left to take responsibility for their actions.

  112. David A says:

    If Korea really destroyed all their nuclear capacity, do you think they would be in danger of U.S. attack? If they withdrew all military from the border, would SK invade? Such question begin to bring clarity. For instace, If Israel

  113. David A says:

    …if Israel withdrew all military force and capacity, they would be destroyed. If the Palestinians did the same their would be no invasion. Agree or disagree?

  114. A C Osborn says:

    Agree.

  115. p.g.sharrow says:

    The only treatment that counters a Warlord is a bigger one. In all the worlds history only the Americans have proved to be a honorable COP. Only the want to be empire builders fear the power of the Americans and with good reason. All over the world, when pressed by warlords or nature, the cry is ” The Americans will help us”
    While reluctant to engage the Americans are fierce warriors with vast experience in the art of war. It is their politicians that are weak kneed and artless. That is why the world socialists concentrate on brainwashing the young elites in their schools by disparaging patriotism and conservative values…pg.

  116. David A,
    I’m not “neglecting” anything, neither am I ignorant of history. I give facts and references to back up what I say – you don’t, you just give your opinions.

    D A wrote:”the massive sacrifices and violence required to stop such evil precludes
    …precludes any ability to put US actions in context. Thus you remain ignorant of what happens in a U.S. withdraw power vacume. ”

    I’m not going to follow every one of America’s attacks, but just take Iraq as an example to show how wrong you are. The influential, mainly Jewish, neocons wanted both Iran and Iraq weakened as they perceived them as a threat to Israel.

    “The Iran Iraqi war followed a long history of border disputes, and was motivated by fears that the Iranian Revolution in 1979 would inspire insurgency among Iraq’s Shi’ite majority,
    The world powers United States and the Soviet Union, together with France and most Arab countries provided support for Iraq,” ref Wiki.
    So America did nothing to stop the fighting and supported Iraq even though Iraq was the aggressor. (Some “massive sacrifice” by the US?)

    “During the eight years between Iraq’s formal declaration of war on September 22, 1980, and Iran’s acceptance of a cease-fire with effect on July 20, 1988, at the very least half a million and possibly twice as many troops were killed on both sides, at least half a million became permanent invalids.
    snip
    Iraq was further subsidized and supported by Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, allowing it to acquire advanced weapons and expertise on a much larger scale than Iran. Third, it included three modes of warfare absent in all previous wars since 1945: indiscriminate ballistic-missile attacks on cities by both sides, but mostly by Iraq; the extensive use of chemical weapons (mostly by Iraq)
    snip
    But revolutionary Iran was very limited in its tactically offensive means. Cut off from U.S. supplies for its largely U.S.-equipped forces.
    snip
    By 1988 Iran was demoralized by the persistent failure of its many “final” offensives over the years, by the prospect of unending casualties, by its declining ability to import civilian goods as well as military supplies, and by the Scud missile attacks on Teheran.”

    On 9 December 1991, Javier Pérez de Cuéllar, UN Secretary General at the time, reported that Iraq’s initiation of the war was unjustified, as was its occupation of Iranian territory and use of chemical weapons against civilians:
    It was revealed that a biological weapons (BW) program in Iraq had begun in the early 1980s with help from the U.S. and Europe in violation of the Biological Weapons Convention (BWC) of 1972. Details of the BW program—along with a chemical weapons program—surfaced in the wake of the Gulf War (1990–91) f
    [Note America supported Iraq.]

    “As war with the western powers loomed, Iraq became concerned about the possibility of Iran mending its relations with the west in order to attack Iraq. Iraq had lost its support from the West, and its position in Iran was increasingly untenable.”

    The U.S. and its allies then maintained a policy of “containment” towards Iraq. This policy involved numerous economic sanctions. hey began August 6, 1990, four days after Iraq’s invasion of Kuwait, [Note when oil is involved America no longer supports the aggressor.] The resulting deaths of children was exaggerated but before that was known Madeleine Albright said 500,000 dead Iraqi Children was “worth it”

    . The UN weapons inspectors inside Iraq were able to verify the destruction of a large amount of WMD-material, but substantial issues remained unresolved in 1998 when the inspectors left Iraq due to then current UNSCOM head Richard Butler’s belief that U.S. and UK military action was imminent. Shortly after the inspectors withdrew, the U.S. and UK launched a four-day bombing campaign in Iraq. Also, during this period the U.S. Congress and U.S. President Bill Clinton issued a resolution calling for regime change in Iraq.
    [All countries are safe from America if they don’t possess nuclear weapons. OK?]

    These overflights intensified one year before the Iraq war began when the U.S. initiated Operation Southern Focus in order to disrupt the military command structure in Iraq before the invasion.
    [Obviously an act of war.]

    “Graham described the Senate Intelligence Committee meeting with Tenet as “the turning point in our attitude towards Tenet and our understanding of how the intelligence community has become so submissive to the desires of the administration. The administration wasn’t using intelligence to inform their judgment; they were using intelligence as part of a public relations campaign to justify their judgment.””

    There was never any proof that Saddam had WMD and even other countries like France and Germany said so. It made no difference.

    So America went to war under false pretenses, because the government wanted to. . T
    The official US story the way the Pentagon states it: 4,487 dead, and 32,226 wounded. [Probably propaganda]
    The Watson Institute says. “Because not all war-related deaths have been recorded accurately by the Iraqi government and the US-led coalition, the 165,000 figure for civilians killed from 2003 to 2015 is lower than the actual figure. ”

    The number of wounded is typically 4 to 8 times the number of deaths.
    [Rather lopsided “massive sacrifice”?]
    Also worth noting, the air force said it had run out of good targets and so started bombing water treatment plants, sewage plants and power stations. Are these to supposed to be magically resurrected when America leaves?

    Of course there was a “vacuum” when the US withdrew. Not content with wrecking all the established organizations necessary for government Bremer disbanded the entire armed forces. How is a government supposed to keep order when you do that?

    YOU should read the full story, not just the few snippets I provide mainly from Wikipedia. American foreign policy is a disaster. The M.E would have been far better off id America had never meddled in their affairs. America wounds and kills millions and doesn’t give a damn. They are setting up to to do it all again in N.Korea and Iran.

  117. As a general point, if you quote Wikipedia you’ll be giving a left-wing (sometimes very much) biased viewpoint that is often anti-American, but definitely a socialist world-view. This may not matter for the science stuff I tend to look up mostly, but even then there’s a bias against things that are too new to become mainstream thought.

    There’s really not a lot of history that isn’t biased. It’s generally written by the winners. However, in politics it looks like academia was taken over by the left a long time ago, so take it with a big pinch of Sodium Chloride.

    So: what’s the truth? You won’t know unless you’re on the inside, and if you then tell someone on the outside you have to kill them.

    I have friends/family in the UK army and the US army. I don’t see any intentions there to go to war when they don’t have to, and they only go in to fix a problem. Some problems need more fixing than is available – there’s really no military solution and you’ll need to wait for the belligerents to die off unless you can make sure they die somewhat faster. In the end, the IRA came to a political solution, as did South Africa. Bosnia settled down. Did you know they crucified children there? I didn’t see it on the news, and I doubt if it’s in Wikipedia either, but the soldiers who went there to try to put things right saw those and some other pretty disgusting things that the other combatants did there.

    Basically, don’t expect the full story to be in the news. You only find out the truth from someone who was there and involved. I’m sure EM has mentioned the differences between eye-witness reports and the reality he experienced, and you’ll find similar stuff on Pointman.

    I see the main problem with the Middle East is that they all want to kill each other, the way they always have done. Maybe better if we didn’t go in and try to impose peace and democracy from our point of view, but then some people don’t like to stand by when bad things are done.

    Warlords and tribes are the natural state of humans, whether you like the idea or not. In our cities, we get gangs and various forms of Mafia. Where the rule of Law is not as strong, such groupings are as powerful as the government or more so. In order to beat them, you need a very big stick. If you want to stop them oppressing or killing the innocent, you need to destroy those gangs and kill the leaders, unless you are very good at persuading people to keep the law. It sometimes happens that persuasion works to end such lawlessness (see Columbia, which really surprised me) but normally there will be a lot of blood.

    It’s somewhat tough to hold on to the principles of good will to all men (and women) when someone’s coming at your and your family with a machete or AK47. Better to teach them that if they try that they’ll not try it ever again (no-one has yet come back from the dead to have another go, anyway).

    Much the same with NK, really. They are threatening all the countries around them. Squash that, with the minimum losses on our side (and preferably no losses at all). It’s a hard thing to do, from a moral point of view, but there really is no alternative except allowing our people to die in large quantities either from the initial strike or the failures of the infrastructure caused by it. Kim Jong-Un is making it obvious it’s them or us, so would you rather live or die?

  118. Read the sensible things Ron Paul writes about N. Korea.
    https://mail.aol.com/webmail-std/en-us/suite

  119. Larry Ledwick says:

    Generally speaking sensible and Ron Paul are mutually exclusive – that said, your link does not go to any thing by Ron Paul.

  120. p.g.sharrow says:

    Ok I read the RonPaul opinion piece.
    Sorry Ron, that gambit was tried at the end of the Viet Nam war…….FAIL! 4 million dead!
    Removal of the US forces is exactly the aim of the North’s leadership to be followed by Blitz. Same tactics they used over 60 years ago. or don’t you study history.
    I like to hear what Ron Paul has to say. Kind of like listening to a crazy old uncle, entertaining even if not useful…pg

  121. Unknown to most Americans, the US ‘totally destroyed’ North Korea once before”
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/asia-pacific/unknown-to-most-americans-the-us-totally-destroyed-north-korea-once-before-1.3227633

    “Many of these atrocities refer to what Blaine Harden, author and former Washington Post reporter, recently called a “long, leisurely and merciless” US bombing campaign: well over half a million tons of bombs dropped, napalm and chemical weapons deployed, cities leveled.

    Air Force general Curtis LeMay, head of the strategic air command during the Korean War, estimated that the American campaign killed 20 per cent of the population. “We went over there and fought the war and eventually burned down every town in North Korea,” he said.

    General Douglas MacArthur’s plan to win was a list of targets sent to the Pentagon, requesting 34 atomic bombs to create “a belt of radioactive cobalt across the neck of Manchuria so that there could be no land invasion of Korea from the north for at least 60 years”.

    This is the country that US president Donald Trump threatened to wreck in his speech to the United Nations General Assembly. “The United States has great strength and patience, but if it is forced to defend itself or its allies, we will have no choice but to totally destroy North Korea.”

    Not known for his deep reading of history, Trump may be unaware that the United States has in fact destroyed North Korea before. And with “next to no concern for civilian casualties, says Bruce Cumings in his book The Korean War: A History”.

    Naive Americans, who have never suffered war in their own country in their lifetimes, can’t begin to understand what war is like. Can you imagine every ciry and town leveled and 20% of the population killed?

  122. p.g.sharrow says:

    Well we had to destroy Germany twice for them to get the message. Maybe the Koreans are slow learners. The Japanese seem to only needed once.
    As to the face of war, I spent 4 long years in South East Asia in the late 1960s, better there then here. The Americans do not need nuclear weapons to deal with the DRNK military threat…pg.

  123. philjourdan says:

    @p.G.

    When threatened run away. Nothing is worth the risk the dangers of confrontation.

    No, didn’t you catch his desire to go to war with Russia and China? He wants it “fair”. You cannot fight the little guy no matter how much death an destruction he causes, because you are “bigger”. So when NK nukes Guam, we cannot retaliate. We have to Nuke China! Because that is only “fair”!

    I sometimes wonder if a lobotomy is a requirement or elective for being a liberal. It is clear that most seem to have gotten one.

  124. p.g.sharrow,
    “Removal of the US forces is exactly the aim of the North’s leadership to be followed by Blitz. Same tactics they used over 60 years ago. or don’t you study history.”

    Of course the North wants the continuous threat by America removed. Wouldn’t you with the history of what America has already done to them.

    You have zero proof the North would then attack the South. Only your typical aggressive “guilty until proved innocent” in the best American tradition. You really don’t think America could vitrify N. Korea in a few hours if they removed their 25.000 troops and ceased their major war games?
    I thought it was just the chicken hawks in Washington but you are just as bad.

  125. ps. Kim Jong Un’s rule is getting shaky already. As I said earlier, left alone Kim Jong un’s regime will come to an end. He has growing problems
    https://www.strategypage.com/qnd/korea/articles/20170915.aspx.

  126. catweazle666 says:

    “The influential, mainly Jewish, neocons”

    Ah, that explains it.

    You one of THOSE.

  127. atweazle666,
    There is little doubt that Israel has an undue influence on America’s policies in the M.E.

  128. philjourdan says:

    “The influential, mainly Jewish, neocons”

    Scratch a liberal, find a bigot. Every time.

  129. p.g.sharrow says:

    Yes, I am glad we got Adrian to SHOUT his true colors!
    Shall we inform him Christianity is actually a Jewish cult Jesus was a good Jewish boy/man who loved his Jewish mother, kept the Sabbath and worshiped in the Temple…;-)…pg

  130. Larry Ledwick says:

    You have zero proof the North would then attack the South.

    What part of this list of previous attacks don’t you understand? They have repeatedly attacked South Korea in spit of the armistice and having to dig tunnels under mine fields and fences to get across the DMZ.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_border_incidents_involving_North_Korea

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_House_raid <- – – 31 man commando team trained for 2 years to assassinate the So. Korean President,

  131. jim2 says:

    Adrian. Instead of wasting your time here, why don’t you get on Kim Dung Ill’s Facebook page and give him a piece of your mind for being such a fool. He’s the one oppressing his people and if the Dung hit’s the fan, it will be because he pushed too far. Of course, you won’t do that because he would serve up a steamin’, heapin’ serving of Fillet O’Komrade.

  132. Larry Ledwick says:

    A little rant here about what happened to the normal American Conservatives and what is happening now as those folks realize that they are on their own, that their nominal leaders who have made a business (con game) out of being “Conservatives” don’t give a hoot about their problems of normal conservative Americans as long as they keep sending their Representatives back to that big pig trough in DC.

    https://townhall.com/columnists/kurtschlichter/2017/09/25/conservative-inc-is-being-replaced-by-us-militant-normals-n2385943

  133. EMS,
    Scanning through the thread I see I missed your reply of23 September 2017 at 11:03 pm, when you addressed a number of my questions, directly above my answer to your previous comment, . I suffer from macular degeneration and don’t see well. It is difficult for me to read now. Obviously you type a lot faster than me.

    “Well, since there were no winners, who wrote the history?”
    I am sure the Western history is quite different from the N. Korean one. We only see the Western story.

    “Yes, the USA, then, had a policy of propping up western leaning dictators to block the communist advance…..”
    My point was that toppling dictators not only killed a lot of innocent people but generally left the country in mush worse shape afterwards than before. So, as done by America, it is not a good idea. As before, if the dictator attacks another country by all means go after him, but not because you think he might. That should be crystal clear.

    “I don’t think anyone has figure out how to peacefully transition from a Despotic Dictator to a Democratic Republic. (Either Left of Right…)”
    Agreed. Better to let the country work it out itself, Foreign cops don’t understand the foreign subtleties.

    Conflagrations for noticing three times that I can count.

    I wrote: “Half the deaths were civilian and I wonder how many of the troops really wanted to fight….”
    Your reply “Sniditude becomes you” was inept.

    “Way Back When, wars had no distinction between civilian and military. ”
    Obviously true. One hopes people have become more humane and the Geneva Convention spell out the law. People who commit war crimes should be executed.

    “Now you want to have a hypothetical where Korea was not divided? OK”
    It’s not a hypothesis, Korea would have been better off not divided. The idea came from two officials in the US State Dept.. At the time. America had atomic bombs and Russia didn’t. So could have insisted. America thought “Uncle Joe was a good guy and ignored Churchill’s warnings.

    ” in reality it was necessary to halt the expansion of International Socialism if we were to retain our lives, country, etc. etc.”
    Have you ever bought the propaganda. I must have missed the bit where America fought Russia to force them to free the Eastern block.

    AA ““You don’t think it is sociopathic to attack another country, kill and wound millions, for no good reason. like America did to Iraq?”
    EMS: “Nice distractor, but not relevant. Iraq had clearly been rolling over neighbors, had invaded Kuwait and was headed for the oil fields of Saudi.”
    Of course saddan should have been smacked down by Desert Storm. He invaded another country.
    T Hat had little to do with the later Gulf War that was initiated by America. I consider that a war crime, but as it was perpetrated by the Cops there was no one to make the charge.

    INtel was fabricated to support America’s invasion. We probably differ on just why it was.

    “Now, to your real question: Do I LIKE that the USA invades other countries and kills folks: No, I don’t.”
    So why support it? It is only your paranoia saying it is necessary. Unlike a colonoscopy, millions get wounded and killed. More than slight difference.

    The story of Korea’s armistice has already been beaten to death. As far as I’m concerned if they have not been fighting for nearly 70 years they are at peace.

    AA: ““Can you explain why it is peaceful for America to have 7,200 nukes and test fire thousands of missiles, but it is an aggressive act for N.Korea to do 1/1000 of the same thing?”

    EMS: “Yes. We have not been running around like a nutjob killing our people in the public square for nodding off and threatening to blow up our neighbors and everyone else if they don’t give us a few $Billion.”

    N.Korea has not attacked anyone in nearly 70 years (Neither has Iran for a couple of centruries) while America is dropping bombs on other people more often than not. Should I post the bombing list again? That doesn’t count?

    “Then there is “What is the alternative?””
    Wait until someone starts a war and then go after them without fail if they do.

    “Basically, humans are “Pack Animals”.”
    What about the Scandinavian countries ot Switzerland etc etc the list is long.

    You have been reading too much pulp fiction the way you go on about Alpha Pack Leader. I think MAD works for the bullies. SAAD is a VERY dangerous solution. You can’t know if you have located all his weapons.

    “So, in short, “we” (and France and the UK and Russia and China and India and Israel) are OK having nukes as we are not driven by that Alpha Dog Need.”
    You left out Pakistan who have many religious nuts and you never know who is going to get elected in the other countries.

    “I did NOT say I don’t care how many are killed or wounded. I said I don’t care about how they feel.”
    That makes all the difference….

    ” The only relevant bits are things like “Will it work?” and “What is the cost?”.”
    I disagee. I think it matters how people feel – leading to the philosophy of “Do as you would be done by.” You can’t do that if you don’t feel. Maybe you are a pack animal.

    “Because our Government is not run by a nutjob.”
    Are you sure about that?

    “What good? Oh, I don’t know, how about a Free and Independent Western Europe (not including much of Eastern Europe after the Cold War end), a free and independent Britain (and all their former colonies). An Australia not speaking Japanese.”
    As well you know, I was talking about the 13 wars over the last 30 years. I ask again, what good has come from them?

    I think Saudi is one of the worst, racial, bigoted governments in the world and hope LENR arrives before their inevitable collapse.

  134. David A says:

    Adrian says…”I give facts and references to back up what I say – you don’t, you just give your opinions.”

    You quite misunderstood that reference was to numerous other posts where you failed to respond to those facts at all, or comprehend what was being said as you quoted what they said out of context and clear misunderstanding.
    Adrian your comments about Iraq are incredibly ill informed and anti American biased. I am going to give you some links in the hope that you spend about 20 hours reading a fact filled rebuttal to your perspective, putting that war in an accurate historical context and completely different perspective then what you present.
    http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/guideDesc.asp?catid=88&type=issue

    On the right hand side you will find 14 links beyond the initial post linked. Each of those has about 10 links of their own. You need a minimum of 20 hours just to get an overall concept of the extensive rebuttals to the gross distortions you have learned.

  135. Further to EMS’s question: “Then there is “What is the alternative?”

    America could really pressure China to stop Kim Jong Un but they won’t because America views money as more valuable than lives. Thus I fear was in inevitable.

  136. Larry Ledwick says:

    Transcript of Roger Stone’s testimony before Congress today.

    https://www.scribd.com/document/359899170/Stone-Opening-Statement#from_embed

  137. David A.
    From your link: ” the chief reason why the U.S. invaded Iraq was not to find and dismantle Saddam’s stockpiles of WMD.”

    I agree, but that is not what the government told the American population and the world

    So you think I’m “incredibly ill informed.” I’m not, but if you think so just avoid reading my posts and I will do likewise for yours.

  138. Larry Ledwick says:

    Regarding the recent assertion that the Trump Administration is not supporting Puerto Rico, as usual this is a cooked up media frenzy not a fair and reasonable accounting of events actually happening.

    http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/451757/white-house-not-ignoring-puerto-rico

    US Navy support to Hurricane Maria started 4 days ago (Sept 21), looks like first order of business is to get airports open to fly in supplies.

    http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=102564

  139. Power Grab says:

    Got any comments about the breaking news of the feds going after college basketball coaches in states where Clinton wasn’t supported? The feds operate out of New York, of course. And most of their comments sound to me like heartstring-pulling editorializing. You can’t convince me that there isn’t anything prosecutable like that going on in the blue states. And it sounds like they used sting operations to get evidence. I know some folks have a problem with that.

  140. Larry Ledwick says:

    Hmmm – I want one.

    http://www.euronews.com/2017/09/26/watch-flying-motorcycle-is-put-through-its-paces-in-russia

    On a more serious not since it is coming out of Kalashnikov it is probably being developed for military applications. Small unit insertion at 50+ mph over any terrain with high maneuverability could be a game changer.

    Operational ceiling, load capacity and flight time of course would limit its application in some environments.

  141. David A says:

    Adrian says…” I agree, but that is not what the government told the American population and the world”

    Adrian once again you take a small sentence out of context from a well documented source and misconstue the message. Anyone can read the links I left and see your many incorrect statements. You are free not to read them. I will, never the less, respond yo your posted misinformation.

  142. cdquarles says:

    As I recall it, Adrian, the US Government told me and my fellow Americans, plus those who were able to read and hear what was said, that we had not only evidence of prohibited programs being continued (this is true given stuff I was aware of) and of continued violations of the terms of the armistice. That the ‘MSM’ picked on one aspect of the list and harped on it to the exclusion of other items, was yet another reminder of the MSM’s bias.

  143. Larry Ledwick says:

    Given some of our troops ended up getting exposed to leaking chemical munitions during operations in Iraq there is absolutely no doubt he had an active chemical program.There is considerable debate but also considerable evidence (believed by all the major intelligence agencies in the world at the time) that he was still working on prohibited programs, and had not declared / disposed of the materials. There were some “major accounting errors” regarding what he said he had done and what was actually found, plus good circumstantial evidence that he might have shipped large quantities of materials to Syria just prior to the second war.

    In turn it looks like Assad may have disposed of only the known materials he had and still has the stuff shipped in from Iraq. It will be 30-50 years before we know the whole story (if we ever do), but him having and hiding materials given his historical behavior satisfied Occam’s razor better than suddenly becoming a nice law abiding dictator and disposing of it all.

  144. Larry Ledwick says:

    Interesting thread from twitter rolling all the posts into one link. Lots of stuff goes on behind the scenes that the public only learns about decades later, like the efforts of the mafia to interfere in the war effort which led to an agreement between the Italian mob and the military, that if they stopped disrupting the war effort with tactics like setting fire to ships, that the US Govt would release Lucky Luciano. He in turn provided Mafia assistance to the US invasion forces in Sicily.

    https://tttthreads.com/t/912767136266723328

  145. Larry Ledwick says:

    Curious about Federal support for Puerto Rico after Hurricane Maria?

    https://www.fema.gov/hurricane-maria

    drill down to the “Federal Response Updates” segment to see current numbers and activites

  146. E.M.Smith says:

    @Larry:

    Yeah, basically an oversized Drone design. Put a .30 Cal machine gun on the front and some grenade dropping ability and it’s a way big game changer… Quiet enough that coming in just at treetop level (or between the tops…) you would know about it just as the rounds started hitting…

    Put some 1 inch lexan in front of the driver for a windscreen / bullet trap and survivability ought to be good too. Looked like 16 motors and props, so can likely lose one or two and still make it back to your lines. Ought to be nice for recon, too (though tiny drone cameras are good enough) and for “scaling walls and cliffs”. Just elevator up and over and step off… Boarding ships (in good enough weather) too… Hopping over land mine fields… Pursuit. Skipping over things like rubble fields / broken rock terrain. Landing special forces from just off shore onto most any shoreline type. Emergency resupply of small groups in isolated locations (likely need a bigger battery and motors…) If fast enough: Ever want to board a moving train or truck ? ;-) Make it remotely piloted you have a precision small bombing platform. Deliver a 100 Kg bomb exactly where needed… so also good for wall breaching, pipeline and rail line interruption, communications disabling, etc. etc.

    Nice.

    Well, I think break time is almost over… I’ve been using a hand auger to drill post holes in modest soil / adobe mix… The last one is all that’s left. It has redwood tree roots on each side, so using the “throwing iron” or “6 foot pry bar” to chip out the bottom between them (and scrape about 1″ off each side roots…) Only 1/2 foot to go and we set posts… Maybe I’ll get the neighbor to do the last part ;-)

  147. Larry Ledwick says:

    Just because it is fun – this is even better with the narration. I hope this is public.

  148. jim2 says:

    Apparently someone from antifa crossed Pointman. Good read.

  149. jim2 says:

    “Venezuela’s President Nicolas Maduro called on his nation’s military leaders Tuesday to prepare for war against the U.S. days after the Trump administration banned Venezuelan officials from entering the nation. ”

    http://www.newsweek.com/venezuela-prepares-war-us-rifles-missiles-and-well-oiled-tanks-ready-672033

  150. Another Ian says:

    “The Stock Market’s IQ is Only 105”

    http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/2017/09/the-stock-marke.html

  151. Larry Ledwick says:

    Interesting short video from the UN from twitter.
    Thomas Wictor‏ @ThomasWictor 43m43 minutes ago

    Thomas Wictor Retweeted Charles Jacobs

    The Green Prince.

    Son of a founder of Hamas, he worked for Israeli intelligence WHILE LIVING IN GAZA.
    Converted to Christianity in 1999.

    Son of a founder of Hamas calls out the anti – Israeli propaganda of the PLO on behalf of the UN Watch

  152. catweazle666 says:

    Amusing news item here:

    Putin Imprisons 130 US Antifa Activists On ‘Terror Charges’ After Violent Riot

    130 mostly American Antifa activists have been arrested in Moscow, Russia after violent rioting, provoked by “violent foreign black-clad thugs” broke out in a popular commercial district in the city centre.

    Russian state media reports that Antifa activists organized the street protest and “violently assaulted ordinary civilians” on their way to work. Antifa members have admitted they organized the protest to protest “Russian hacking” and attacked civilians “because they were Russian” and therefore “responsible for helping elect Trump.“
    http://yournewswire.com/putin-antifa-russia/

    This bit in particular:
    Now the activists, many of whom hail from the movement’s Californian chapter, are being held in some Russia’s harshest jails, awaiting a military trial (as their acts are considered “terroristic” under Russian law), and facing up to 56 years in prison.

  153. p.g.sharrow says:

    OMG! Soros is losing a bunch of his storm-troopers From California! even, GOD is good 8-)…pg.

  154. p.g.sharrow says:

    May be fake news…pg

  155. Larry Ledwick says:

    Interesting addition to the list of ways animals can migrate across oceans.

    http://www.dw.com/en/tsunami-carried-japanese-animals-to-us/a-40732244

    Events like tsunamis and large land slides which put lots of debris in the water can allow rafting of animals across distances that would normally prohibit breeding populations from crossing.

    Obviously works better for small critters that can ride the debris for weeks or months rather than large mammals but a mechanism that clearly works for some creatures.

  156. Larry Ledwick says:

    Ship being shifted to Puerto Rico from other Hurricane response duties.
    (news flash to the media:
    1. It takes time to move all those resources around.
    2. Primary responsibility for Hurricane response is the local government not the Federal government [ just like Katrina – what were local officials doing to prepare Puerto Rico for the last 12 years while we had more than a decade with very few major hurricanes? ]
    3. Military assets have been there since Sept 21, but before you can begin massive air lift ship to shore support operations you have to make the ports and airfields functional.

    https://pilotonline.com/news/military/nation/navy-sending-another-combat-ship-to-hurricane-ravaged-puerto-rico/article_be0098a4-5f46-52f7-bf14-c9c5f9d79d3f.html

  157. jim2 says:

    It’s too bad we ended up with Puerto Rico. They were already bankrupt before the hurricane, obviously hugely mismanaged. Are we going to have to rebuild this island over and over again? Should we impose building standards, such as require a reinforced concrete shell at least 20 feet off the ground? This is ridiculous.

  158. Larry Ledwick says:

    Hurricane rated building codes would go a long way if the Island did not have such a deficit of resources and infrastructure in the first place. Massive debt at the government level and lots of citizens who can barely make ends meet do not allow you to do much in the way of preventative action.

    Once you take a society down to a certain critical level of ability to function things just implode and problems aggravate other problems and it just snow balls into a Gordian knot that is very difficult to untie.

    You can’t move supplies until bridges are repaired and debris cleared from roadways. You cannot fly in equipment and supplies if the airports are not operational etc. Lots of prep work needed just to get to the “lift yourself by your boot straps” point where you can start effective operations.

    Of course the Democrats in Puerto Rico are trying to turn it into a political club to beat Trump over the head with rather than working to serve the needs of the local population.

    Military assets have been on scene since Sept 21 trying to get things functioning so they have already been working for 9 days, plus due to the sequential hurricanes resources were tasked to other locations for the earlier hurricanes so will take some time to shift assets to Puerto Rico.

    This is the reason everyone who lives in a high risk zone like that should be able to be self sufficient for at least 1 – 2 weeks, rather than just the 3-4 days they recommend for general emergency preparedness guidelines. The risks of course change with locations, down there it is hurricanes and tsunami risk, in California large earth quakes, in the northern and mountain states major blizzards and tornadoes, or wild fires if in rural areas.

    Like the flood insurance program which should you do just keep rebuilding the same high risk structure or build it to a higher standard or relocate it one time to remove the exposure. It took 100 years for the folks along the Mississippi to begin to declare parts of the flood plain off limits to new structures and only allow flood tolerant uses like golf courses, parks, ball fields etc in those areas.

  159. Larry Ledwick says:

    The problem in Puerto Rico is mostly a logistic issue. The aid supplies cannot be delivered to those who need them.

    http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/27/us/puerto-rico-aid-problem/index.html

  160. Larry Ledwick says:

    Of course it does not help when your local government is notoriously corrupt and incompetent.

    http://money.cnn.com/2017/05/03/news/economy/puerto-rico-wants-to-file-for-bankruptcy/index.html

  161. “Vietnam was not a ‘tragedy,’ as the PBS series asserts, but the product of imperial geopolitics. The same holds true for today’s Mideast wars. To paraphrase a famous slogan from Vietnam, we destroyed Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria to make them safe for ‘freedom.’
    snip
    This same dark cloud hangs over our political landscape today. We have destroyed large parts of the Mideast, Afghanistan and northern Pakistan without a second thought – yet wonder why peoples from these ravaged nations hate us. Now, North Korea seems next.

    Showing defiance to Washington brought B-52 bombers, toxic Agent Orange defoliants and endless storms of napalm and white phosphorus that would burn through one’s body until it hit bone.

    In spite of all, our imperial impulse till throbs. The nightmare Vietnam War in which over 58,000 American soldiers died for nothing has been largely forgotten. So we can now repeat the same fatal errors again without shame, remorse or understanding.”

  162. p.g.sharrow says:

    the Vietnam war was a Democratic Party caused tragedy, both at it’s beginning and at it’s end when they deliberately squandered the victory our blood won. Thank you Adrian Ashfield…pg

  163. Larry Ledwick says:

    For those interested in following what resources are being tasked to Hurricane Maria response I found the press releases. As you read through them you see that one of the hold ups has been getting the ports and airports operational (fixing radar, verifying the harbor channels are clear etc.)

    People also forget other islands were impacted by the hurricane before Puerto Rico and some resources are just now getting released from those support missions and diverting to Puerto Rico.

    One of the constants in emergency management is that about 4 days after the acute disaster phase ends people switch into the bitching and moaning phase, due to the stress and strain of the disaster, poor sleep, emotional overload etc.Everybody just gets cranky. Many of them only seeing the problems in their little tiny local bubble and not recognizing all the upstream choke points that have to be solved before aid can get to them.

    Most importantly local governments almost never read and actually understand their disaster response plans and emergency response duties and legal authorities. Many need to be pulled kicking and screaming to their duties because they are busy chasing news cameras, doing public relations or trying to make political points rather than doing their job and enabling the emergency response. Disaster emergency statutes require them to take certain steps before some activities are authorized.

    Many times the chief road block to major emergency response is local politicians who won’t do their real job but waste time and energy engaged in non-productive or even counter productive activities.

    https://www.dhs.gov/news-releases/press-releases

  164. Larry Ledwick says:

    Yes I have seen those but only on alternative site, none of the mainstream media are even mentioning the possibility that the unions are using the emergency.

    The Governor is happy with the Federal Response

    http://rightwingnews.com/top-news/governor-puerto-rico-says-trump-done-everything-can-help-libs-angry/

    Neighboring mayor says she is playing politics.
    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/neighboring-mayor-praises-trump-says-san-juan-mayor-playing-politics-awol-at-meetings/article/2636185

    From twitter:
    Katherine Faulders‏Verified account @KFaulders

    Asked a WH official if POTUS has plans to meet with the Mayor of San Juan Tuesday and got this response –>

    ———

    Filthy Deplorable Me‏ @edintampa 9 hours ago
    Replying to @KFaulders @mikeellerkamp

    Here we see the Good Mayor complaining about no food or water while standing in front of , well , Food and Water.

  165. Larry Ledwick says:

    Media picture of her standing in water shaking hands with someone in a boat, with a bull horn under her arm.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLAyp6EVAAERsMQ.jpg:large

    Blow up the picture and look at far right edge, they did not crop out a second camera which is just poking into frame upper right edge of image.
    Photo op!

  166. Larry Ledwick says:

    I bet you based on the height of the exposed fence and porch wall on the house, she is sitting or kneeling in 18″ deep water not standing in waist deep water.

    Hopefully someone else has an out of frame view looking back at the photographers to show the staging.

  167. Jeff says:

    @Larry, and the whole thing was probably set up by CNN. They have a lot of experience at it.

    C reate the
    N ews
    N etwork…..

    From an article on The Conservative Treehouse:
    https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2017/09/30/puerto-rico-teamsters-union-frente-amplio-refuse-to-deliver-supplies-use-hurricane-maria-as-contract-leverage

    Puerto Rican born and raised, Colonel Michael A. Valle (”Torch”), Commander, 101st Air and Space Operations Group, and Director of the Joint Air Component Coordination Element, 1st Air Force, responsible for Hurricane Maria relief efforts, has the following comment:

    “…They have the generators, water, food, medicine, and fuel on the ground, yet the supplies are not moving across the island as quickly as they’re needed.

    “It’s a lack of drivers for the transport trucks, the 18 wheelers. Supplies we have. Trucks we have. There are ships full of supplies, backed up in the ports, waiting to have a vehicle to unload into. However, only 20% of the truck drivers show up to work. These are private citizens in Puerto Rico, paid by companies that are contracted by the government”.. (link)

    Seems the Marxists, Soros, and the International labor groups are doing their best to put a wrench in President Trump’s work to help Puerto RICO recover…..

  168. Larry Ledwick says:

    From Twitter:

  169. Larry Ledwick says:

    Do we have anyone who can translate “angry Puerto Rico dialect spanish” for a translated summary of this video?

    It is being presented as proof that the Puerto Rico truck drivers are refusing to work as a union action. To gain leverage in union negotiations.

    spanish language video

  170. Larry Ledwick says:

    Found a breakdown of the essence of the video on twitter:
    Thomas Wictor is a native speaker of spanish grew up in Venezuela.

    Thomas Wictor‏ @ThomasWictor 34m34 minutes ago

    (1) Well, I didn’t think it was true, but it is:

    Puerto Rican truck drivers are refusing to work.

    (2) The toothless guy is complaining about a law that the governor passed three weeks ago.

    (3) The reporter CONFIRMS that the truck drivers are refusing to work in order to get revenge on the governor.
    (4) The toothless guy says that the governor’s policies have impacted truckers, so now truckers will show the country THEIR OWN suffering.

    (5) The reporters says, “But all this stuff is in the past. In the present, it’s an emergency.”

    (6) The toothless guy says that the country can now experience what the truckers experienced due to the governor’s policies.

    (7) The toothless guy says the truckers are not responsible for helping the country. That’s the governor’s job.

    (8) Three weeks earlier, nobody cared about the plight of the truckers, so now the truckers don’t care about the country.

    (9) This is all the governor’s fault, the toothless guy says. He passed a law, and now he has to live with it.

    (10) The governor didn’t understand the suffering of the working man, so now the truckers will show the country what suffering is.

    (11) Since the country doesn’t care about truckers, the truckers won’t help.

    (12) There you have it. As I said before: This is ALL THE FAULT OF PUERTO RICO.

    (13) I didn’t think it would be possible for a union to go on strike during a national emergency, but it happened. Stunning, really.

    I accept his translation summary as confirmation that the reports are true.

  171. Larry Ledwick says:

    A bit more on the truckers from twitter

    Tia6
    @tia6sc
    Replying to @bradford5445 @POTUS

    PR Truckers Union refusing to work unless FEMA pays triple wages! Sorry SOBs taking advantage of situation with price gouging!
    5:42 PM – 30 Sep 2017

  172. Larry Ledwick says:

    Posted on facebook

    Bob Long

    my friend Gabriele Delgado :

    From a friend in Puerto Rico
    I got online for the first time in days and one of the very first things I saw was an out and out lie about the government’s response to the crisis I am in the middle of. I don’t care if you hate or love Trump, using the crisis in Puerto Rico to spread political lies is disgusting! I am literally across the street from the airport, and the hotel I am in is where many of the first responders are staying, so here is what is going on from someone who is actually here seeing it. The government is here and has been here! Every single day plane after plane full of FEMA, FBI, homeland security, army, Air Force, Marines, and extra police officers from all over the country shows up. Cargo plane after cargo plane and ship after ship full of supplies shows up. There is a hospital ship off the coast that I can see from the beach. The response was quick and it keeps coming! They are out every day from sun up until sun down. This isn’t a political issue, it is a humanitarian one. The lies being spread about the response aren’t helping the people here, it is just fueling hate based on lies! If you want to help Puerto Rico, donate money or supplies and pray. If you want to play politics find something else to argue about! Not like there aren’t hundreds of topics for you to choose from!
    Edited to add this- Roads have been completely destroyed in many areas, especially the remote one. The military and FEMA are going out to these places on foot with 100 lbs + packs on their backs. It is requiring them to cut their way through flooded areas to get there. It will take time to reach everyone when conditions are as bad as they are.

    Source link
    [https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10213969623335843&id=1267936309]

  173. Larry Ledwick says:

    Puerto Rican police officer video of call in to a Spanish language radio station with English subtitles.

    Aid is being blocked by local government officials according to this call

  174. Larry Ledwick says:

    From twitter:
    AMERICAN 🇺🇸‏ @LEXLOW9112012 23 minutes ago
    Replying to @ThomasWictor

    I have family in the island. This has been confirmed. The port was full with aid after day 2. But the truckers union refused to move it.

  175. Larry Ledwick says:

    The Trump administration had disaster supplies already pre-positioned on Puerto Rico before hurricane Maria hit.
    Distribution of those supplies were “at the request of local government”.
    It is the local government that defines where aid needs to go and coordinates getting it there, not FEMA. FEMA is a “support organization” not a command and control organization as is the case with our structure of government the State initiates emergency response, declares an emergency then “requests” a Federal disaster declaration, which once approved triggers release of support resources to the local governments in accordance with their needs.

    By statute the state must perform certain actions to trigger that emergency support. One of those requirements is damage assessment to define the needs, a second is to obligate local funds which is then matched by the Federal Government in the prescribed ratio.

    All actions begin at the local level with the minor exception of Commander discretion of military units to take immediate life saving actions.

    https://fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm100-19/fm100-19_5.html

  176. Larry Ledwick says:

    An alternative view on why the USS Comfort was not dispatched sooner (it was not needed at that time – other ships better suited to the task were already on site.)

    https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-09-30/no-trump-didn-t-botch-the-puerto-rico-crisis

  177. Larry Ledwick says:

    Interesting commentary on the Modern Russian method of conducting war on all fronts, social, media, economic, diplomatic except direct military conflict until the enemy is so confused he is not sure who or why things are happening, and which side is the “good guys”

    This makes things like Berkeley + Antifa make a bit more sense if you realize the objective is to support any group that will confuse the issue and sow discontent, disruption and chaos in the public sphere.

    This has been named The Gerasimov Doctrine

    http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/09/05/gerasimov-doctrine-russia-foreign-policy-215538

  178. E.M.Smith says:

    Interesting video Claiming that the Gov. of P.R. has stated (on the view?) that the hatched job on Trump over P.R. aid is “complete nonsense” for political points. Computer generated voice, but ought to be possible to check the facts of it::

    @Larry:

    Sun Tzu: All warfare is based on deception.

    The Left has declared war on anyone non-Left… Global Socialism never surrendered nor quit with the fall of the USSR, it just went underground and decided to take over the Democratic Party. With the advent of Bernie, it has succeeded. Now it is in open attack mode.

    Per the translation:

    It is a decent summary. There is more said in the video than makes it to the transcript, but nothing in the transcript was obviously wrong and what was left out was often duplication and some minor elaboration / detail. Some of it was a bit fast for my ability, and the dialect was a bit different from what I’m familiar with; but I think there was a minor discussion of something about gasoline. Taxes or availability or some such. I only listened once, and on microsized speakers, so need to listen again with my bluetooth headset and pause after some sentences… But the big lumps are as represented in the transcript.

    I need to find out the political affiliation of the Mayor of San Juan and what her ambitions were prior to having this disaster happen. I.e. was she from the “Never Let A Disaster Go To Waste” school or not?

  179. Larry Ledwick says:

    Per the Mayor, she is affiliated with a local Puerto Rican party, but was supportive of Obama.
    This item gives some back ground and confirmed she is not a very good leader. She did the one thing political leaders should never do in a disaster – she walked the streets trying to help the people (ie looking for photo ops). In a disaster the senior political leader who is vested with the authority to make decisions needs to be in the emergency operations center and in meetings with the support agencies coordinating relief efforts, not walking the street patting people on the head.

    Effective disaster response requires timely decisions from senior designated authorities not playing phone tag trying to get her approval for actions remotely over phones or by messenger since the cell systems were destroyed.

    “supplies were trapped behind an electronic gate that would not open”
    BS if people are dying how long does it take you to find a frigging cutting torch or tow truck to take down the gate? If she was in the operations center a phone call could have gotten her a helicopter full of Sea bees or Marines to open that gate in less than an hour.

    (Full disclosure when I worked in Emergency Management I worked with political critters like her and I absolutely detest their penchant for trying to climb on top of a pile of bodies for political points.
    How did she get a T shirt printed in Puerto Rico when the island was destroyed and she couldn’t find anyone to open a locked gate?

    Their cynical use of disaster victims offends me to the bone, and I can smell them a mile away from their condescending commentary and blame everyone else rhetoric – do not get sucked in by this scam artist she is the problem not the response units!) [some day I will tell you how I really feel ; ) ]

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2017/09/30/trump-called-san-juans-mayor-a-weak-leader-heres-what-her-leadership-looks-like/?utm_term=.f8e5a9019b00

  180. Larry Ledwick says:

    Appears the Mayor of San Juan has a long history of being a radical.

    View story at Medium.com

    We all know Puerto Rico has been a basket case for government ineptitude and corruption for decades.

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/01/puerto-rican-ceo-sends-engineers-to-help-fema-efforts-calls-local-pols-inept.html

  181. Larry Ledwick says:

    Interesting bit from twitter:

    BNO News‏Verified account @BNONews 59 minutes ago

    Russia appears to have established an internet connection for North Korea, providing the regime with an alternative for the one set up by China – 38North

  182. Another Ian says:

    Larry

    ““supplies were trapped behind an electronic gate that would not open”
    BS if people are dying how long does it take you to find a frigging cutting torch or tow truck to take down the gate? If she was in the operations center a phone call could have gotten her a helicopter full of Sea bees or Marines to open that gate in less than an hour.”

    Not long in the age of the battery powered cutoff wheel

  183. catweazle666 says:

    “Interesting commentary on the Modern Russian method of conducting war on all fronts, social, media, economic, diplomatic except direct military conflict until the enemy is so confused he is not sure who or why things are happening, and which side is the “good guys””

    Not actually much different from the old USSR method of establishing Lenin’s “Pre-Revolutionary State” by continuous disruption of all aspects of society at every level leading to such social unrest that the electorate was willing to turn on the existing Government, whereupon the Soviet-friendly government-in-waiting would step in, seize the radio stations, move into the centres of government and take over.

    The ramifications of this are still very evident in the destruction of our educational systems on both sides of the Atlantic by the Left and particularly in the UK the hold that the trade unions still have on the public sector.

    It all came to a head during the 1979 ‘Winter of Discontent’ in the UK when the country effectively ground to a halt, no electricity for days on end, unburied bodies stored in requisitioned supermarket deep freeze facilities and the TUC as close to No. 10 as being invited in for beer and sandwiches.

    The British Isles – being the ‘Unsinkable Aircraft off the coast of Europe’ came in for considerable attention as had a USSR-friendly government ben installed, the whole of mainland Europe would have been under threat.

    All these strategies are extensively documented in the Left wing literature of the post-war period, of cause.

    Seems like the modern day Russians are simply carrying on where the USSR left off.

  184. What Did Washington Achieve in its Six Year War on Syria?

    Now that the defeat of ISIS in Syria appears imminent, with the Syrian army clearing out some of the last ISIS strongholds in the east, Washington’s interventionists are searching for new excuses to maintain the illegal US military presence in the country. Their original rationale for intervention has long been exposed as another lie.

    Remember that President Obama initially involved the US military in Iraq and Syria to “prevent genocide” of the Yazidis and promised the operation would not drift into US “boots on the ground.” That was three years ago and the US military became steadily more involved while Congress continued to dodge its Constitutional obligations. The US even built military bases in Syria despite having no permission to do so! Imagine if Syria started building military bases here in the US against our wishes.

    The US is not about to leave on its own. With ISIS all but defeated in Syria, many in Washington are calling for the US military to continue its illegal occupation of parts of the country to protect against Iranian influence! Of course before the US military actions in Iraq and Syria there was far less Iranian influence in the region! So US foreign interventionism is producing new problems that can only be solved by more US interventionism? The military industrial complex could not have dreamed of a better scheme to rob the American people while enriching themselves!

    What have we achieved in Syria? Nothing good.

    ref http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2017/october/02/what-did-washington-achieve-in-its-six-year-war-on-syria/

  185. Larry Ledwick says:

    Las Vegas – what we know at this point
    50+ dead about 200 injured.
    ABC NEWS: Las Vegas shooting suspect Stephen Paddock had no criminal record, had pilot’s license, Alaska hunting license and was accountant
    AP: Las Vegas gunman Stephen Paddock killed himself as police burst into hotel room
    Suspect in Las Vegas shooting massacre identified as 64-year-old Stephen Paddock, per NBC News

    REUTERS: Investigators have located Marilou Danley, who has been identified as the Las Vegas suspected shooter’s wife

    Las Vegas police searching for two vehicles linked to shooting which have been located:
    Hyundai Tucson w/ NV plate 114B40 and Chrysler Pacifica w/ NV plate 79D401.

    Suspect fired on the music festival from the 32nd floor of the Mandalay Bay Hotel.
    He was approximately 1200 feet from them (horizontal distance).

    Based on audio of the shootings most likely a .30 caliber weapon capable of firing approximately 100 rounds at a time. (audio records sustained bursts of rapid fire too fast for semi-auto and too long for normal magazine capacities)
    Cyclic rate suggests something like an AK-47, too slow and too low in pitch to have been 5.56 like the AR-15

  186. Larry Ledwick says:

    Official statement on the shooting:

  187. Larry Ledwick says:

    Interesting twist apparently the shooter’s father was a bank robber arrested by the FBI in the 1960’s

    source: https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/24667993/

    Wednesday, August 24,1960
    Tucson Man Held In 5 Bank Thefts Patrick Benjamin paddock, 34, Of Tuesgi
    was in county jail yesterday awaiting court action on charges accursing him of three
    Phoenix bank robberies.

    Ex-convict Paddock is accused of getting $4,600 in a robbery last month of the
    Valley Bank’s branch it 1845 E. McDowell, and more than $20,000 in two robberies
    at the Valley Bank’s branch at 1820 W, Van Buren.

    PADDOCK WAS returned here from Las Vegas, Nev., where he was nabbed July 28, by FBI agents.

    He is held in lieu of $55,000 bail.. Paddock, unless he pleads guilty -to the charges,
    probably will have to wait until his case Is presented to the federal grand jury
    scheduled to sit here next month.

    LAST SATURDAY Paddock was viewed by bank employes in a lineup at Phoenix FBI headquarters.

    FBI agents declined to comment on results of the lineup. Paddock was captured through
    information supplied by Robert E Schmidt, assistant manager o the E! McDowell branch.

    Schmidt supplied police with a description of the get-away car which led to Paddock.

  188. Larry Ledwick says:

    Updating casualty counts
    Sheriff says 58 dead, 515 injured in Las Vegas mass shooting

  189. Larry Ledwick says:

    Good summary of the law as it pertains to purchase, manufacture and ownership of fully automatic weapons in the U.S.. These “Class 3” weapons are very highly regulated and extremely expensive ( ie 10’s of thousands of dollars expensive), making them for all practical purposes unavailable but technically legal for the average person.

    http://thefederalist.com/2017/10/02/actual-federal-laws-regulating-machine-guns-u-s/

  190. Larry Ledwick says:

    If this turns out to be true, the shooter was an anti-trump pussy hat wearing protester at least once.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLJUQo3UQAA_1A0.jpg:large

  191. llanfar says:

    Why did ISIS claim responsibility?

  192. Larry Ledwick says:

    Best video I have found of the actual event, starts with a sustained burst of fire lasting about 14 seconds at a rate of fire of 3-4 rounds per second. That matches well with the AK-47 which has a nominal rate of fire of 600 rnds per minute. The M-16 / AR-15 for comparison is much faster at about 700-800 rounds per minute.

    http://heavy.com/news/2017/10/stephen-paddock-las-vegas-route-91-mandalay-bay-shooting-shooter-gunman-suspect-photos-motive/

    Latest reports are saying that there were 19 guns found in his room.
    From twitter
    @ABC reporting gunman had 19 weapons in hotel room. Both handguns and long guns.

  193. Larry Ledwick says:

    This item mentions something I have been wondering about, supposedly he was something of a professional gambler, having on at least one occasion won $20000 according to some sources.

    My suspicion is that when this is all over he will be found to have been on the hook for huge gambling debts. This of course will take weeks to sort out so only preliminary hints at this point.

    http://www.euronews.com/2017/10/02/las-vegas-gunmans-gambling-habit

  194. llanfar says:

    @Larry 4 shots-per-second * 60 seconds = 240 shots-per-minute…

  195. Larry Ledwick says:

    That was just a ball park guess, several folks have posted that they used the audio track and counted the actual rounds fired in that burst at approximately 100 (111 or 98) so just over 400 rounds per minute if their count was accurate.

  196. Pingback: Las Vegas Mass Shooting | Musings from the Chiefio

  197. E.M.Smith says:

    I’ve added a dedicated posting for the Las Vegas shooting. This “W.O.O.D.” is getting long in the tooth and will cycle shortly, so this “hot event” will need a place for traffic…

    https://chiefio.wordpress.com/2017/10/02/las-vegas-mass-shooting/

  198. Larry Ledwick says:

    Solar panel farm after a CAT 5 hurricane.

  199. E.M.Smith says:

    Gee… wonder how long it takes to get the solar panel farms back on line after a Cat 5 as compared to the Coal Plants and downed wires…. I’d guess the latter is about a week or three, and the former is a few months or years… Think post disaster recovery rate matters?

  200. Power Grab says:

    I have been thinking that solar and wind are only useful power sources only when the weather is fair.

  201. Lionell Griffith says:

    “I have been thinking that solar and wind are only useful power sources only when the weather is fair.”

    Put that in context of the constant outcry that the weather is changing for the worse then consider what that says about the underlying motivation of the green blob. They are causing power generation technology to shift to something that works only in fair weather and banishing the power generation technology that just works, all during the time they say their consensus is that the climate is changing to much more extreme bad weather. The conclusion is that they intend to eliminate any semblance of the industrial quality and quantity of power generation that our civilization depends upon to continue to exist and advance.

    Sadly, this is but one more piece of evidence they intend to return mankind to pre stone age conditions. They do not mean well.

  202. Larry Ledwick says:

    Ahh the Left’s anti gun silliness is in full bloom.

    http://www.euronews.com/2017/10/03/american-gun-ownership-and-violence-in-figures

    Does anyone notice anything odd about these graphics in the above article?

    Among owners that have only one gun
    Among all gun owners

    Clearly the folks that did the graphic have no clue about that which they are talking.

  203. cdquarles says:

    Yeah, those graphics are very telling. One other thing, what is the definition of a mass shooting? Plus, where are the survey details so we can fisk it? /rhetorical

  204. cdquarles says:

    Oh, I also note that no mention is made with respect to the number of mass bombings that happen in Europe.

  205. Larry Ledwick says:

    I almost fell out of my chair laughing when it dawned on me that their graphics guy had used a flint lock pistol at the graphic for a shot gun, not once but twice!

    Graphic display of statistical info is prone to lots of different abusive methods. Not listing the definition used for mass shootings is a good example, are they using the FBI listing or just the fact that more than one person was shot, in which case gang violence ranks very high in the numbers as those shootings frequently involve more than one victim but do not fit the FBI definition of mass murder or the congressional research service similar definition of “public mass shooting”.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_shooting

  206. Larry Ledwick says:

    It will be interesting to see how Wall Street reacts to this:
    Given he has seen more than a few bankruptcies, this is probably a well seasoned view.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-puertorico-trump-debt/trump-says-puerto-ricos-debt-will-have-to-be-wiped-out-idUSKCN1C905F

  207. Larry Ledwick says:

    Looks like the gulf coast may be in for another rough ride in the next few days.
    If the storm manages to shoot the gap between Cuba and the Yucatan it will hit a pool of really warm water that is between 29 – 30 C

  208. Larry Ledwick says:

  209. cdquarles says:

    Good one, Larry. Thanks.

    Now about that disturbance. It is October and historically, a disturbance in the western Caribbean tends to go west into Mexico. It can go north into the Gulf.

    Now remember, the water temperatures at depth count, not the ones near the top. 25C/77F is the minimum threshold for tropical storm/hurricane development. Water temperature isn’t sufficient, though. You also need a pre-existing low pressure area at the surface or in the middle levels and a high pressure area over that. Even that’s not enough. You also have to have little or no vertical wind sheer (wind direction that changes with height above the surface). Once going, these storms make their own weather.

    I am going to check the advisories as they get released.

  210. Larry Ledwick says:

    Hmmm interesting

    https://www.wnyc.org/story/capturing-energy-left/

    Note the red rose in the twitter feed, that is an indicator that the person is part of DSA

  211. beththeserf says:

    Reposting a comment I made @JoNova.

    Here’s an straight talking discussion sent to me by a former
    adviser to govt, between Peterson/Paglia re post-modern
    attacks on history and biology, no boundary conditions
    allowed, all power to bureaucracy to determine via
    identity politics law enactments, what we may say or
    think.

    Video at about half-way mark, those Western technical
    developments that brought light, the grid, clean water
    to us by those pesky western males to be dismantled.

  212. Power Grab says:

    @ Lionell Griffith:
    “Sadly, this is but one more piece of evidence they intend to return mankind to pre stone age conditions. They do not mean well.”

    Indeed. When I started trying to wrap my head around their arguments, years ago, I kept bumping up against the really anti-human end game. I couldn’t see any way around it.

    In fact, even when considering the idea that they are trying to set it up so they can herd everyone who is allowed to survive into (for lack of a better word) ghettos, even that idea repulses me.

    If “good fences make good neighbors”, then good cars help keep us safe from thugs, assuming you can go fast enough and far enough to get away from them. If you can only get around on foot or in the equivalent of a golf cart or a bus, then you are at the mercy (and I use the term loosely) of the thugs on the street.

  213. philjourdan says:

    On the issue of “They eat their own”, Weinstein is reverting to an old Hillary line VRWC – http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4953450/Harvey-Weinstein-right-wing-conspiracy-sex-shame.html

    For his troubles. ROFL! Both of the “right wing” members of Hollywood denied any involvement.

  214. Another Ian says:

    philj

    A comment over at CTH

    “A roll for a role”

  215. philjourdan says:

    @Another Ian – LOL!

    That’s what happens in the animal kingdom when you get old. The pack feasts on your carcase.

  216. Larry Ledwick says:

    Well looks like Denver metro area is about to get its first measurable snow fall of the season. Temperature in Casper Wyo was 32 a little while ago while it was 66 here in Denver (34 deg Delta T in 226 miles). It should start snowing in a couple of hours.

    Windy.com shows the upslope forming pretty clearly right now at the 6400 ft elevation setting.
    https://www.windy.com/?800h,40.015,-105.108,5

  217. Glenn999 says:

    Love ya EM
    but
    :]
    just do a WOOD every week.
    this thang is huge!

  218. Mike says:

    @Power Grab

    . . . good cars help keep us safe from thugs, assuming you can go fast enough and far enough to get away from them. . . .” Make that “good cars with stout bumpers . . . get away from them (and/or drive over them). .

    A man in a working car is not as disarmed as he might appear to the casual observer. You just can’t let a bit of gore overwhelm you.

    If you aren’t prepared to do what it takes to survive, then just let them eat you!

    @EMS see Glenn999! (When time and priorities permit.)

  219. Pingback: W.O.O.D. – 10 October 2017 | Musings from the Chiefio

  220. E.M.Smith says:

    As noted in the description, it’s when I get time to do them. I’ve “inherited” 2 dogs AND I’m doing a bunch of repairs / fence stuff before rains start, so some of my time is not optional… As it is, I’m not able to really follow up all the comments as much as I’d like…

    But OK, I’ve heard the complaint.

    @PowerGrab:

    My idea of what to do if someone hops in the car and points a gun at you (carjacking) is that you put both arms through the same side of the steering wheel, and one foot on top of the other on the gas pedal, then punch it. As you barely manage to not wreck you explain to the guy that he can toss the gun, and likely live, or shoot you and you will aim for the nearest very hard object… It is highly unlikely they put their seat belt on, and I always wear mine.

    Oh, and never try to intimidate a pickup truck. I had a Ford F350 Crew Cab. Curbs were only a suggestion and subcompacts a minor annoyance… Pedestrians? Well, most of the time I could see them ;-)

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