Las Vegas Mass Shooting

I don’t have much to say about it yet.

So far it’s a 64 year old guy, supposedly recently? unemployed, prior Lockcheed Martin employee? Shooting from the 32 nd floor of the Mandalay Bay down onto a Country Western concert crowd. About 58 dead, several hundred injured. Used a fully automatic rifle (perhaps several, reported to have at least 10 guns in his hotel room).

My question would be: “Was he on any SSRI meds for depression?”

Those are known to cause psychotic breaks in some folks due to inability to metabolize the drug. Saw a show / news report (on RT I think) about it recently. They interviewed 2 Dads who murdered their own children while on SSRIs (Zoloft, Ambien, etc. IIRC). Perfectly sane off them.

Given that the guy has no prior history to indicate issues, and has had recent troubles in life, I’d suspect psychoactive drugs prescribed for depression, then not monitored well enough.

The coverage here started in a W.O.O.D. posting here:

Something about it just doesn’t smell right to me. Wrong kind of shooter. Wrong kind of target. Just something is off (perhaps the sanity of the shooter…)

Subscribe to feed

About E.M.Smith

A technical managerial sort interested in things from Stonehenge to computer science. My present "hot buttons' are the mythology of Climate Change and ancient metrology; but things change...
This entry was posted in News Related and tagged , , . Bookmark the permalink.

125 Responses to Las Vegas Mass Shooting

  1. E.M.Smith says:

    Did a quick cycle of CBS, ABC, NBC and they are oddly torn between their usual Glory In The Gore and hand wringing weeping over the deaths, and a the clear What? reaction to it being a Country Western show being shot up and by an old guy in a hotel.

    They seem a bit puzzled how to “spin” it, for now. Expect the demand for “gun control” to start eventually (despite it most likely being an illegal full-auto already) as they get over the fact that they don’t know how to handle that the people they despise were the targets…

  2. philjourdan says:

    The demand has already started. But the magnitude of the shooting is causing most to ignore it for now (that will come later).

    The Clark County Sheriff said it best. Nothing he could do would have prevented this. Sometimes, when they want to do it, crazies do succeed.

  3. Larry Ledwick says:

    His father was a diagnosed psychopath, and bank robber that got on the FBI’s 10 most wanted in the 1960’s so perhaps he had a predisposition to crazy criminal behavior. Latest reports are putting the death toll at about 58, with hundreds wounded, and apparently he had 19 guns in the room which he has been in since Sept 28. That of course implies a lot of premeditation.

    19 long guns without ammo would weigh about 150 pounds depending on what type they were, if 50/50 hand guns and long guns you are talking about 100 pounds of guns smuggled up to his room without alerting hotel staff, or tipping off a maid.

    Long guns range from about 32″ to 42″ in length so without some sort of cover that was not out of place (ie golf bag) it would be a challenge to get that many long guns up to the 32nd floor without arousing attention.

    It will take about 48 hours for all the basic info to come out so now folks by necessity must stitch together random bits of info.

  4. philjourdan says:

    @Larry – I was thinking the same thing (Golf bag/clubs). Almost everyone in Las Vegas probably carries a bag. It does take some planning, so that may not support E.M.’s drug side effect scenario.

  5. Larry Ledwick says:

    A few more details from New York Times

  6. E.M.Smith says:

    The folks with SSRI issues still are functional for planning and such. They just get a paranoid psychosis overlay… or have psychotic ideation (one guy thought his son was having a miserable life so ‘saved him’ by murder…)

    Many long guns ‘take down’ to 2 parts about 2 to 2.5 feet each. Many of those would fit in a single large suitcase wrapped in a thin blanket…Couple of those (on wheels) dragged up to the room once or twice a day you could move a lot more than he had…

    IMHO the two most likely scenarios are the guy was just biologically a psychopath, or was on anti-depressants that moved him a bit psychotic. I’d say “time will tell” except the very large tendency for mass shooters to be on psychotropic meds is often not reported. It’s so ubiquitous now for kids to be on ADHD meds or their parents to be on SSRIs, that between “medical confidentiality” and the PC “say nothing bad about psych illness” media you get a news blackout on meds status.

    I’ll see if I can scare up something on the SSRI issues…

    WOW, that was easy:

    Mass Murders And The SSRIs Connection – Infowars
    Mass Murders And The SSRIs Connection. July 24, 2012 Comments. … She has researched 32 murder/suicides that involved women and their children.
    [Search domain]

    Psychiatric Drugs And Mass Murder: Exploring The Connection …
    Psychiatric Drugs And Mass Murder: … of drugs called selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors, … I again thought of SSRI’s and the connection to acts of …
    [Search domain]…

    The connection between violence, suicide, homicide, and …
    The connection between violence, suicide, homicide, and antidepressants. … “What is the connection between … chemically induced ingredients for a mass murder.. …
    [Search domain]

    Mass Murders and SSRI Connection : conspiracy –
    The connection between violence, suicide, … She has researched 32 murder/suicides that involved women and their … SSRIs block this reuptake of the serotonin into …
    [Search domain]

    SSRIs: The gateway drug to mass murder –
    SSRIs: The gateway drug to mass murder. Thursday … unearths some of the extensive history of SSRI-induced suicides and … connection to pharmaceuticals is …
    [Search domain]
    SSRI Antidepressants: The Gateway Drug to Mass Murder
    A recent report by James Corbett of The Corbett Report unearths some of the extensive history of SSRI-induced … their connection to … CCHR International – 48 …

    And a whole lot more…

    IMHO, it’s something that ought to be Front and Center of ANY mass shooting, suicide, or family homicide case. Was the Perp on any psych meds?

  7. philjourdan says:

    I am sure it will be. This one is similar to Hodgkinson. So something may come out. But before it happened, no one suspected he was wacko. Hodgkinson was easier to delve into because he targeted politicians. This one just targeted people.

    I have not studied the SSRI links. But I pray that the studies have not been spiked due to PC.

  8. David Atbs says:

    I heard the concert attendees had just finished singing God Bess America.

    Certainly a nut job, but likely one inspired by the political hate of the left. If was a Madonna concert and the she had

  9. David Atbs says:

    Just finished ripping on Trump, there would be less reporting on any mental illness.

    My daughter is a trauma nurse in Vegas. They got 33 injured.

  10. Larry Ledwick says:

    If anyone knows anyone who is trying to locate friends or relatives in Las Vegas

  11. Larry Ledwick says:

    From twitter:
    UPDATE: 59 people killed and 527 people injured in Las Vegas shooting: sheriff – @USATODAY

    Vaughn Sterling‏Verified account @vplus

    CNN BREAKING: Police say they retrieved 18 firearms, explosives, and several thousand rounds of ammunition from shooter’s home.

  12. cdquarles says:

    EM, beware of the post hoc ergo propter hoc here, with respect to SSRIs and other such medications. That said, there likely are people on these that shouldn’t be on them.

  13. Larry Ledwick says:

    Youtube audio of Las Vegas PD radio traffic during the shooting 25:53 duration

    LVPD Police radio audio

  14. Larry Ledwick says:

    Fox News‏Verified account @FoxNews 7 minutes ago

    Tel Aviv, Israel municipal building is lit up like the US flag in solidarity with victims of the #LasVegas shooting.

  15. Zeke says:

    25m audio recording. Takes them 17minutes to identify shooter is in room 135 on the 32nd floor.

  16. Zeke says:

    “Stephen Paddock, the man identified as the Las Vegas mass murderer, made large gambling transactions in the weeks leading up to the horrific shootings, NBC News reports.

    Paddock gambled more than $10,000 per day on several occasions at Vegas casinos, the network news reported. In at least some of the cases, the amounts were greater than $20,000 and $30,000.
    It was not known if the transaction were losses or wins.

    The information came from an NBC News source who had seen Paddocks Multiple Currency Transaction Reports (CTR). By law, casinos have to file a CTR for “each transaction in currency involving cash-in and cash-out of more than $10,000 in a gaming day,” the network news said quoting the statute.”

  17. Zeke says:

    “A woman described as a “companion” or “girlfriend” of Las Vegas killer Stephen Paddock is an Australian citizen who worked in the casino industry.

    Marilou Danley, 62, lived on the Gold Coast for more than a decade but most recently resided with alleged shooter Stephen Paddock in a retirement community in Mesquite, Nevada, the Sydney Morning Herald reported.

    Danley’s LinkedIn profile said she was a “gambling and casino professional” who lived in Reno, Nevada.

    She also worked as a “high-limit hostess” at Club Paradise of the Atlantis Casino Resort Spa between 2010 and 2013.”

  18. Zeke says:

    I would not believe he is dead unless I saw the body. I would also not assume that there were no other shooters.

  19. Larry Ledwick says:

    Getting confirmation that he was using bump-fire modified rifles.

    Bump fire is a stock modification that allows an approximation of a full automatic weapon but is technically legal because the shooter technically pulls the trigger each time a shot is fired.

    Several observers noted the inconsistent rate of fire in the audio tracks and surmised it might have been a bump-fire weapon. I expect Congress or ATF to change rules on these devices after this shooting.

  20. Zeke says:

    “A woman in the crowd of Las Vegas concertgoers screamed “you’re all going to die” just 45 minutes before a gunman opened fire, killing at least 50, according to a concertgoer interviewed by KSNV, NBC’s Las Vegas affiliate.

    Brianna Hendricks was celebrating her 21st birthday at the Route 91 Harvest Festival with her mother when she heard the woman scream, “they’re all around … you’re all going to f—ing die today.”

    Watch Hendricks’ interview with KSNV-TV:”

  21. Larry Ledwick says:

    New York Times sound track analysis of Las Vegas shooting and other mass shootings

  22. E.M.Smith says:


    In the case of one SSRI patient who killed his kid, blood tests showed a toxic level of SSRI and lack of the liver enzymes to break it down leading to a “psychotic break”. He was acquitted and is now normal. other than grief and being pissed at drug companies.

    The assertion was that the official response was ~”yeah, some people lack the enzyme” move along, move along…

    But these things are prescribed to 10s of millions, so a 1 in a million suicidal psychotic reaction matters rather a lot. Especially given that the mechanism has a test…

    It was also asserted the EU has clamped down on them in some way. (Sorry for being vague. One of those TV Investigations that are only half heard until suddenly you realize what they are saying…)

    I don’t bring it up as My Hobbyhorse, only as a “Dig Here!” issue to validate or repudiate, and that is typically ignored by news and police.

    So yeah, if 10% of the general population are on them then 10% of shooters are too and it means nothing. But if 75% of shooters are on them and 90% of them have abnormal blood levels and odd liver enzymes… maybe a quick blood test on new prescriptions could do good things to mass shootings.

  23. philjourdan says:

    On the radio this morning, a retired FBI Special agent reminded us of Charles Whitman. Turned out to be a brain tumor.

    It sounds eerily similar this time. The audience was not picked for any purpose other than convenience.

  24. Lionell Griffith says:

    “I don’t bring it up as My Hobbyhorse, only as a “Dig Here!” issue to validate or repudiate, and that is typically ignored by news and police.”

    OK. I will do a bit of “digging” here.

    Put this in context that the usual presumption is that if an explanation, however tenuous and external to the violent actor can be found, the consequences of his actions are largely excused. He thereby becomes the victim who is held innocent by virtue of his inability to act otherwise. The violent actor’s individual life’s choices, pathological thought processes, and faulty basic assumptions as to how to behave with respect to others is hardly ever considered relevant BECAUSE he ultimately had the power to choose to act differently. So called “good intentions” are usually sufficient to absolve the actor of all responsibility for all consequences of bad choices. Especially if he is a member of a favored collective of victims.

    Now say that it can be identified that detectable genetic factors can be found to be explication of an unacceptable behavior. Then the government is empowered both to test for and constrain, before the fact, the unacceptable behavior. What happens? Mandated universal genetic testing prior to birth and abortion if found defective is the end game. The matter arises who is to select the good and unacceptable genetics? Is there any one person or body of persons wise enough to make such a selection. Has there ever been such a person or body of persons? No, at least in my judgement. What if that judgement was deemed to be genetically determined and unacceptable? My voice would have been erased from possibility of consideration.

    The matter remains is that there will always be false positives and negatives in testing results. The choosing body will ALWAYS make mistakes. Making mistakes is such a pervasive property of human choice, there must be a genetic component. Oops, they too should be erased from the gene pool. Either that, or they will be absolved from the consequences of their mistakes and be allowed to make them without accountability. Seems this is the path to unbounded acts of violence against all who have not yet committed a transgression however imagined by the genetic selection committee who, by definition, is always politically correct. The innocent will always be held guilty before the fact. The guilty will always be held innocent after the fact.

    Further, there is always the likelihood the genetic tenancy will not be expressed. Had the individual been allowed to develop to adulthood, the crime for which he was convicted and executed might never have been committed. Isn’t this rather like the Christian’s doctrine of original sin. They are sins you did not commit but are guilty of by by the fact you are alive.

    Compare and contrast the above with the situation in which the INDIVIDUAL is presumed to own his life and its consequences. Thereby gaining full benefit or paying the full price for said consequences. Each individual holding themselves and all others to the same standard. The tendency would be to discover and mitigate those innate “bad” tendencies. For example, you could discover you have a tendency to drink and drive leading to frequent bad consequences for self and others. You could CHOOSE not to drink or drink and not drive recognizing that merely wanting a drink is not a sufficient reason to drink. This would be true even if that tendency was genetically determined.

    Ultimately, humans choose their behavior. The choices are based upon the identifications he has wrongly or correctly made, the quality of thinking he has done or has refused to do. He can modify much of his behavior BY INDIVIDUAL CHOICE. If all are free to make their own choices and receive the full consequences of those choices, the tendency will be to make better choices. If the individual is not left free and are not held accountable, you have the situation we have today only much multiplied.

    By bitter experience we know that having an unaccountable central authority making all the important choices for us never ends well. This is true no matter how benevolent and well intentioned the central authority happens to be. It is simply impossible for to acquire and process all the relevant data in time to make the correct choice for everyone. Even if they made the correct choice based upon the data at hand, the choice could not be implemented in time for it to be correct when implemented. A central authority will ALWAYS make sub-optimal choices at which time everyone pays. If the sub-optimal choice is made by the individual, only he and a few other individuals who agreed to it will pay.

  25. E.M.Smith says:


    A nice explication of individual responsibility vs collective manipulation.

    What it misses is that the individual typically has no grounds to contradict their doctor when the doc says “Take this prescription for your depression” and certainly does not have fully informed decision data about their response to the drug (until they take it).

    Once taken, for those folks with a bad reaction, their brain is addled and they are not able to recognize their psychotic break. They can not be expected to make the decision that the drug is screwing up their decision making.

    Now I’m not advocating mass genetic screening nor any other government intrusion. What I am pointing out is that folks being put on psycoactives (SSRI in particular) for the first time ought to have a blood test after a couple of days to assure the drug is clearing properly (that thay are not in the minority cohort lacking the enzyme to break it down). Frankly, that is just good medicine given that some folks are now known to have that problem and will have a psychotic break.

    The evidence to date is that it takes a week or two to accumulate the toxic psycotic breal level, so easy enough to have a followup after a few days and test blood level. Once a person is known to metabolize the drug, such test is probably no longer needed for future presciptions.

    Note that none of this involves government intrusion, excusing classes of people for their VOLUNTARY actions, removing guilt from voluntary actions, etc. All it does is assure WE are not drugging people into INvoluntary psychotic states due to ignorant practices.

    That, then, ought to reduce deaths from those psychotics.

    I can not in good concience blame a drugged person who was only following doctors orders for being drugged into a psychotic break. I can blame a process that does not check for a known mode of failure with dire consequences.

    BTW, I worked on a psych ward for a while. Folks in psychosis are far from reality and unable to make good reality centered decisions. They are beset by daemons and see things that do not exist. Expecting them to realize their state and rationally decide it is the drug their doctor tells them to take, then choose to stop it, is an irrational expectation. The drug has already broken their reasoning ability.

  26. Larry Ledwick says:

    Police sources have leaked some crime scene images of the guns used in the Mandalay Bay attack.

  27. cdquarles says:

    Wait a minute. It is, or was, that the standard of care for prescribing physicians included doing blood level screening where testing is available (within the limits of sensitivity and specificity) and the drug in question is known to have narrow therapeutic levels and especially when the therapeutic levels are near or overlap the toxic ones.

    For the shooter in question here, though, I’ve seen no reports of him being mentally ill and on antidepressants or antipsychotics. That said, people on these are usually on these because of prior acts. Unlike the past, now-a-days you are allowed to be crazy as long as you’re not dangerous, whether you’re on medications or not. Also, now-a-days, patients can and do refuse medical advice. Sometimes that works well enough. Sometimes it doesn’t. A medical doctor cannot ‘willy nilly’ coerce a patient. The law gives the doctor that power only when, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the patient is a danger to himself or others. Even then, said power (varies by state) is limited to just a few days. Beyond that, the lawyers and judges get brought into the picture.

    It is also known that severely depressed people often lack the energy to do bad stuff and when put on these medications, they get the energy back days to weeks before they get their thinking back to sanity. This period is the most crucial period to prevent harms, so often these patients are put in supervised settings for several weeks to a few months.

  28. Lionell Griffith says:

    “What it misses is that the individual typically has no grounds to contradict their doctor when the doc says “Take this prescription for your depression” and certainly does not have fully informed decision data about their response to the drug (until they take it)”

    Full disclosure, I have a all but the thesis PhD in Pharmacology with minor in Human Physiology and with massive academic background in the physical sciences and math. I take the trouble to make my self informed about the drugs my doctors ask me to take. On more than one occasion, I refused because of the side effects I knew were likely. Consider that ANY chemical you put in your body can and will have side effects. Some good, some bothersome, and some fatal. This is equally true of the drugs approved by the FDA. For example, there is a small but non zero incidence of fatal side effect from taking a single aspirin. Even though it is generally recognized as an extraordinary safe drug.

    However, there is distributed sufficient information with prescribed and OTC drugs of the potential side effects and benefits of taking the drugs to give pause to question if, on balance, taking the drug is a reasonable action to take. Agreed, I have an exceptional knowledge base and skill with respect to making those judgements. I view that fact as merely a necessary survival mechanism in our drug saturated society. There is no excuse for being totally ignorant and gullible. If you want to stay alive, you must acquire the knowledge of how to do it. Otherwise, you will stay alive only if you are very lucky.

    The problem is that the majority population assumes the doctors know best without knowing what the doctors do and don’t know. I was educated along side of them in medical school. They are usually exceptional people but they are not gods. I had more than one premed student ask me to take his physics test for him. I refused but offered to tutor them. Again, they are not noble gods. They are simply people who have expended the effort to go through the gauntlet of medical training and pass the tests.

    Sadly, most people don’t question, they simply follow directions, typically without bothering to keep track of the potential bad side effects and their symptoms. I am amazed that there is as few problems that actually happen. However, there is significant morbidity caused by medical treatment to demonstrate the medical system is far from fool proof. At the very least, you have to know enough to be able to judge the quality of professional care you receive. Just because the state says they are qualified isn’t good enough. See the VA for case in point.

    Like it or not, pleading ignorance and inability to understand while relying on randomly selected experts can and often will lead to a fatal result. Ultimately, each individual is responsible for knowing what is in his best interests. It is my opinion, we would be much better off if we were clearly and pervasively informed that we are really on our own about such things. Maybe then more would take responsibility for knowing a bit more about what it takes to stay alive.

  29. David Atbs says:

    Phil says…. “It sounds eerily similar this time. The audience was not picked for any purpose other than convenience”

    Appears too early to say IMV. There is claimed video of the shooter attending an anti Trump rally. I did not watch it as I do not even know what he looks like. IMV way to early to determine motive. All social media is apparently hidden.

  30. cdquarles says:

    Nine rounds per second is about 112 ms between discharges and that’s certainly within semi-auto capabilities, especially with a bump stock. So, we don’t know if there was a fully automatic weapon involved or not. Personally, I doubt that this shooter had or used a fully automatic (legally acquired, yes, it is possible but it takes money and time to get one) rifle; though he could have gotten an illegal one. The pictures shown by that Boston TV station look like regular AR style rifles, which may or may not be semi-automatic.

  31. Larry Ledwick says:

    Keep in mind this was apparently a very rich guy who probably could have easily gone doctor shopping (gone black market) to get just about any drug he wanted. Habitual gambler might have gotten hooked on all sorts of drugs to try to stay awake for gambling marathons etc. Habitual sleep deprivation which obsessive gamblers might engage in can also lead to mental issues.

    We will know more when toxicology screens come back in a few days and they have time to dig through his transaction history, and medicine cabinet at home and analysis of his on line activity.

    All that will take a while. Given he died they won’t be as constrained as they would have been if he was in custody awaiting judicial proceedings.

  32. Larry Ledwick says:

    Nine rounds per second (540 rounds/min) is at the very low end of the typical cyclic rate of the AR family .223 weapons. That rate of fire is more typical of larger caliber like .30 semi autos and full auto designs. (of course given the number of guns he used hard to determine which one was in use at the time that rate of fire was measured

    .30 cal/7.62
    M-60 LMG 500–650 rounds/min 7.62 NATO (U.S. belt fed light machine gun)
    AK-47 600 rounds per minute 7.62-39
    FN-FAL 650-700 rounds per minute 7.62-51 NATO
    M-14 700–750 rounds/min 7.62-51 NATO

    .223 / 5.56
    M-16 700-950 rounds per minute

  33. E.M.Smith says:

    Remember the numbers reported are the average rate. What I heard was a mix of some 3 sec or so long bursts, and some short bursts. Actual rate of the gun could be higher than the average measured due to trigger relaxation at times… I.e. a dozen bursts have lower average rate than continuous fire, even if the gap between the bursts is only a round or two… and I doubt the present numbers in the news are being that carefully considered.

    Per wise drug research: My family is exceptionally bright. Yet I’m the one who does drug lookups in our PDR Copy… Seems marketing degrees and masters in Education don’t prepare you to read the pharmaceutical jargon… A very smart Engineer friend was prescribed antidepressants, has a PDR and yet didn’t ask for any special review after starting them. The PDR may say “causes suicide ideation”, but few folks expect to get such side effects and believe they will know it is the drug (and react accordingly), but they lack the understanding of what happens to reason when you have psychosis… In short: The patient lacks the background to say no up front (and for most prescriptions, “yes” is the right answer anyway), then once taken, the capacity to reject is busy leaving… The better solution in that context is an objective review by someone else. Preferably of an objective measure like blood drug level or performance test.

    So yes, a 100% endorcement of DIY drug review, but also realization that maybe 10% of the population really can execute that review (on a good day…)

  34. philjourdan says:

    @Lionel Griffith – 60 years ago, we had a scandal – thalidomide babies.

    yet people still do not take precautions. You do have us at a disadvantage. But even I research what I am prescribed (or my wife). I do not like the side effects of some, so have told my doctor not to prescribe them for me.

    The best medicine is often no medicine. Sometimes that is not an option. But I will probably die early because I refuse to take most medicine. I may have an Ibuprofen 2-3 times a year for a headache.

  35. philjourdan says:

    @David Atbs – I totally agree with you that it is too early. If it is a brain tumor, that will come out. Right now, all we have is speculation. While I did hear that theory from a former FBI guy, it struck me as fitting the facts we know so far.

    I did not say it was the reason. Only that the LACK of background for the shooter doing anything rash prior to the incident is similar to the Charles Whitman case.

  36. cdquarles says:

    @Larry, sleep deprivation that is severe enough, looks like other kinds of delirium. Bipolar people may look like catecholamine poisoning when manic. So, we should keep in mind, though near the bottom of the list, that this shooter may have an adrenal or intestinal tumor, too.

  37. tom0mason says:

    Just a little on SSRi from .

    The investigators found that larger responses in the anterior cingulate cortex to presentation of emotionally negative pictures were associated with subsequent improvement with venlafaxine treatment, which is consistent with the FDG-PET studies previously described. This finding was recently replicated using responses to emotional faces to predict outcome with fluoxetine treatment.28 Interestingly, that study also analyzed structural MRI scans on the same patients, and found increased gray matter in the anterior cingulate cortex and other regions among fluoxetine responders, suggesting that the changes in brain activity that predict treatment response may reflect underlying differences in brain structure.

    A more recent fMRI study looked at brain activation in response to the presentation of emotionally charged words as a predictor of recovery from MDD following CBT.29 It found a specific pattern of brain activity during the viewing of emotionally negative words that was associated with subsequent improvement with CBT: low activation of the subgenual cingulate cortex and high activation of the amygdala. The amygdala is involved in processing emotional stimuli, and its responses to emotional stimuli may be controlled by connections from the subgenual cingulate cortex.30 This finding involving the subgenual cingulate cortex contradicts the 2 fMRI studies involving medication treatment described above. Whether this is because of methodological differences between the studies or, more promisingly, caused by different patterns of cingulate activity predicting differential response to medication versus CBT remains an important question.

    So some SSRIs cause structural changes in the way the brain reacts to stimuli. It appears those people on these drugs are still the ‘white mice’ for finding out what SSRIs really do.
    Also apparently eating oily fish makes the response to SSRIs stronger, , however some cause the likelihood of internal bleeding to become worse, with increased risk of abnormal bleeding with use of SSRI drugs and possible mitigating effect on risk of ischemic stroke ( )

  38. Lionell Griffith says:

    “60 years ago, we had a scandal – thalidomide babies.”

    As I recall, there was a clear indication that it should NOT be taken while pregnant even in Europe The indication was ignored, in part, by people who imported/smuggled the drug into the US and who did not pay attention to the KNOWN side effects. Again, as I recall, the drug was very effective at controlling the nausea and mood swings associated with pregnancy. Hence, it was used without paying attention to the likely catastrophic effects on the fetus during certain periods of its development: incomplete arms and legs.

    The interesting thing was that the FDA was slow to approve the use of the drug in the US. They claimed they saved the US from the bad drug on purpose. I suspect that was an after the fact claim because the FDA was and is notoriously slow to approve anything. Largely they get blamed only for approving a drug that eventually is found to be not so good. It is only recently, the FDA approved drugs for terminally ill people that could potentially help them. Prior to that, they were withheld on the bases they were not proven safe and might harm the patient. That the patient was doomed to die anyway and might be helped was not a consideration.

  39. Larry Ledwick says:

    Best photo essay on the shooting I have seen shows the full view he had from his room and accurate descriptions of some of the weapons including discussion of the bump-stock device.

  40. Larry Ledwick says:

    Interesting item on gun control

    Radical concept – Let’s make changes that will do the most good for the most people not address a rare and unusual situation that is a tiny fraction of all gun deaths, while stripping rights from innocent citizens.

  41. jim2 says:

    We can’t at this point dismiss the possibility he is a MooooosLuuuum carrying out Geeee Haaaad, can we? He has a connection to the Philippines. Time will tell.

  42. Larry Ledwick says:

    Related to my above post on gun control. 51% of murders happen in 2% of US counties, if we cleaned up gang violence in half a dozen cites we could drop the gun murder rate by 30% – 50%.
    It however helps the effort to sell gun control if the Democratic inner cities let the gangs butcher each other as it pushes up the total homicide rate and makes it an easier sale, even though the vast majority of the country is very safe and seldom sees a murder.

  43. Larry Ledwick says:

    From twitter:
    Kerry Smyth‏ @SmythRadio 3 minutes ago

    Kerry Smyth Retweeted MediaHound

    I havent verified it yet but I have a few very strong sources telling me this guy was a leftist. Leftist are irresponsible and untrustworthy

    MediaHound‏ @MikeWanjura
    Replying to @SmythRadio

    Question has to be asked: Why do the shooters in all these mass shootings seem to be from the left?


    Several of the videos that have popped up alleged to be him imply he was very much on the left, as I mentioned at the start of this one video screen grab showed someone that looked to be him at a protest wearing a pink pussy hat, so very likely a Sanders or Hillary supporter at the very least.

    That will all come out in time, so far no info on voter registration etc. has been made public to my knowledge.

  44. Ian W says:


    Just reported in the press:
    “As police continued to probe the motives behind Paddock’s atrocity, it was revealed:

    Paddock was prescribed an anti-anxiety medication four months before carrying out his shooting atrocity

  45. Ian W says:

    Further information:
    “Today, it also emerged that Paddock was prescribed an anti-anxiety medication four months before carrying out his shooting atrocity.

    Paddock was prescribed 50 10 milligram diazepam tablets – also known as Valium – on June 21 by Vegas doctor Steven Winkler, the Las Vegas Review-Journal reports.

    Diazepam is a sedative-hypnotic drug that can trigger aggressive behavior in people with underlying behavioral problems, the paper reports.

    It is not known why Paddock was prescribed the drug, or whether he had any behavioral issues.”

    Read more:

  46. David A says:

    Here is a Pam Geller article on the video… of the anti Trump rally.
    A decent, although certainly not definitive case is made that he and his girl friend were there.

  47. David A says:

    The facial pattern is quite strong.
    Marilou Danley vacationing in Middle East makes the ISIS claim that Paddock was radicalized more credible. Her former husband had an anit-Trump, pro-leftist Facebook page and now with Paddock likely seen at an anti-Trump protest it seems clear that they were aligned with the left.

  48. David A says:

    Concert attende tells about woman threatening them… ” You are all going to die”

  49. jim2 says:

    Valium isn’t a SSRI drug.

    The problem with the side effects list is that pharmaceutical companies are lawyered up. Frequently, you see the very symptoms of the problem listed as side effects. So if it’s a antidepressant, side effects will include depression. Depressed people sometimes commit suicide, so that also could be the drug or the underlying pathology.

    Anyways, my money is on he’s a liberal or a (sound of many cows)([slime mold] – s – mold).

  50. David A says:

    Where did Paddock get his training and why two windows? (? Multiple guns set up at each window)

    I see no problem with him getting all those weapons up to his room over several days. Also he likely just left the ” do not disturb” sign on the rooms door. Yet to pull this off he had to have training.

  51. David A says:

    Psychotic, Trump hater statist, Islamist convert? Perhaps, as all are orthogonal and possible.

  52. jim2 says:

    I can’t help but wonder why snipers weren’t deployed. Thermal sight would help spot the discharge from the weapon as well as the shooter, I think, not an expert on that. If someone had had the presence of mind to turn off the lights at the venue, I wonder what the outcome would have been.

  53. Larry Ledwick says:

    Regarding the two window shooting position, I would suspect a combination of two things.
    1.) Better field of view – one was near the end of the “wing” of the building so had a broad view in that direction, the other probably had a better vantage point of the entry area of the building and boulevard that passed in front of the building. The police had to shut down that whole length the blvd (uses up resources)
    2.) The simple factor of confusion and the appearance of multiple shooters. By having multiple guns and running back and forth between the openings he could give the impression of more than one shooter once the police figured out where the shots were coming from.

    Keep in mind he worked as an accountant in the past, that means a methodical detail oriented approach to problems. That alone explains much of his thorough planning and set up.

    Don’t need much “training”, there is an endless supply of training videos on the web and he was surrounded by desert where he could go shooting all he wanted. He bought guns in at least 4 different states, so easily could have picked up training classes in typical practical shooting programs or hunter safety courses. Once you figure out the basic operation of the firearm most intelligent people can self instruct if they are methodical and disciplined (again traits likely to show up in someone who has worked in accounting or an IRS agent).

    It is not clear what his exact duties were while at the IRS but some of their agents are armed.

    Regarding sniper deployment, it would be very difficult to “shoot upwards” toward his location from an area not in his direct field of fire, and there would have been a very significant risk of over penetration of the counter snipers rounds into occupied rooms around his location. There were people in rooms just down the hall from him calling into police so they took the SWAT option.

    The body mechanics of shooting a long range rifle do not make it easy to shoot at steep upward angles. Also it is a difficult shot because of the high angle of fire. Unless the counter sniper had trained in similar situations his shots would likely go high as bullet drop is a function of horizontal distance over ground not the distance along the line of flight. Steeply angled shots both upward and downward strike high due to this effect. He was also actively shooting at a range of 1200 – 1400 ft (400+ yards) most police snipers are not actively trained for shots longer than 100-200 yards. They can make them but they simply have no reason to train at those longer ranges as they will probably never in their career take a shot on a criminal out past 150-200 yards or so.

    Most police sniper shots are in the 50-100 yard range with a very small number out to 200+ yards

  54. Larry Ledwick says:

    From twitter:

    Thomas Wictor‏ @ThomasWictor 6h6 hours ago

    Thomas Wictor Retweeted Backwards_thats_boB

    He had 27 residences.

    He was a professional grifter. [ this poster makes a strong case that his real source of income was probably not gambling – given his girl friend having multiple husbands and such works for me ]

    Josh Caplan‏ @joshdcaplan

    NEWSWEEK: Las Vegas shooter’s girlfriend used two social security numbers, was married to two men, Geary Danley & Jose Bustos, at same time
    6:05 AM – 4 Oct 2017
    ——————————————-‏Verified account @cnsnews 44 minutes ago

    12 Rifles in Gunman’s Hotel Room Had Bump Stocks; 33 Guns Purchased in Past Year.

    [this implies a change in the shooter about a year ago to suddenly start buying large numbers of guns in 4 different states]

    Josh Caplan‏ @joshdcaplan 53 minutes ago

    AP: Nevada Prescription Monitoring Program shows Paddock prescribed 50 10-mg diazepam tablets, that can lead to violent behavior, on June 21


  55. p.g.sharrow says:

    Imagine you are shooting a machine-gun at a typewriter sheet size venue 15 feet away that is covered with ants. That is about the view from the 32ed floor at the fenced concert venue below 1200ft away. Our shooter was not shooting at people, he was spraying the crowd from a quarter of a mile away. A sociopath getting even with the world as a last act…pg

  56. Larry Ledwick says:

    From twitter:
    Another example of multiple addresses.

  57. cdquarles says:

    @Ian, as Jim2 says, Valium (diazepam) is not an anti-depressant. It is an anti-anxiety drug and often given as a sleep aid (with risks). Not only is diazepam not an anti-depressant, it is a depressant and it is not one of the selective serotonin receptor uptake inhibitor class of anti-depressant.

  58. E.M.Smith says:

    The problem with getting rid of your anxiety is that it is anxiety about consequences and getting caught that stop folks from doing very bad things…

    My GUESS would be that he had a weak personality structure with marginal impulse control (gambling alot when stats proves it a loser), was caught up in the Hillary Win hype, then when Trump won, had High Anxiety and started Antifa like ideation. Got drugs for the anxiety, and that pulled the last chock out between ideation and action…eliminating what impulse control he had.

    BTW, had never heard of a bump stock before this. Saw video on TV of one in use. The whole gun wobbles around. You could not aim it nor have decent control. A stupid gimmick, IMHO.

  59. Larry Ledwick says:

    Bump stocks are relatively new, I have only been aware of them for a few months. In some respects for firing on an area target like he did their randomness is beneficial. In that sort of situation you want dispersion of rounds.

    One of the complaints against the Vietnam era M-60 machinegun was that it was too accurate. When we were doing machine gun qualifications the special forces guys could put most of their shots at 200 yards in a group you could cover with one hand. Interestingly they used a variation on the bump stock technique to turn a 600 round per minute belt fed machine gun into a 300 round per minute rapid fire gun.

    If the M-60 was held just a bit loosely against the shoulder and the shooter just barely pushed the trigger with their finger, each time the gun fired its recoil would pull the trigger clear of the shooters finger so that if fired rapidly single shot rather than at its full cyclic rate. Fired that way it was a very accurate weapon. Great if you want to put rounds through a pill box gun port or a coconut log machine gun nest firing slit.

    When fired that way, it was a distinct series of single shots ( pop pop pop pop ) when you were working the targets.

  60. Larry Ledwick says:

    Newsweek has retracted its story that reviewed the public records of Marilou Danley, the girlfriend of Las Vegas shooter Stephen Paddock.

    The initial report was based on many public records, but included an error that came to light after publication when a family member came forward.

  61. jim2 says:

    Larry L. said “likely go high as bullet drop is a function of horizontal distance over ground”

    I believe the drop due to gravity is a function of time, not distance per se. So shooting at an angle upwards would take more time to reach the building than a horizontal shoot. Therefore, I believe, the bullet’s drop due to gravity would be more than if horizontal.

  62. Larry Ledwick says:

    It is a bit confusing until you get your head around what really happens but it does always hit high. That is why laser ranger finders often have a setting where instead of showing the true line of sight distance to a target it computes the horizontal distance to target, which is what you use to calculate the correction.

    A couple quick articles on the subject:

    If you really want to understand it sit through this 32 minute video:

    video on high angle fire corrections

    The simple rule of thumb is if shooting at a steep angle from horizontal hold low on the target as the bullet will strike high. On a man sized target instead of aiming center of mass of the chest aim for the middle of the stomach just about at the solar plexus.

  63. Ian W says:

    The public is not being told the truth about what really went down in Las Vegas.”

    This includes:

    MISSION IMPOSSIBLE: Official story of Las Vegas shooting unravels; physical impossibility of lone gunman senior citizen makes narrative ludicrous

    Far from what the firearms-illiterate media claims, these are not systems that any Joe off the street can just pick up and use to effortlessly mow down 500 people. Running these systems requires extensive training, experience and stamina. It is physically impossible for a guy like Stephen Paddock to operate such a system in the sustained, effective manner that we witnessed, especially when shooting from an elevated position which throws off all the ranging of the weapon system.

    Far from being a Navy Seal, Stephen Paddock is a retired accountant senior citizen with a gambling problem and a flabby physique. The only way he could have carried out this shooting is if he were transformed into a human superweapon through a magic wand. I’m calling this “Mission IMPOSSIBLE” because of the physical impossibility of a retired, untrained senior citizen pulling this off.”

    Curiouser and Curiouser – perhaps the ISIS claims may not be so far out.
    In City of Ruins, Philippines’ Battle Against ISIS Rages On
    Marawi and the surrounding area, on the southern island of Mindanao, was once home to 200,000 people, the biggest Muslim-majority city in the Philippines. It is now a mostly emptied-out field of wreckage, contested by a dwindling group of Islamist militants who claim loyalty to the Islamic State, and by the government of President Rodrigo Duterte, who has vowed to root them out no matter the cost.

    Perhaps the $100K was not for the girlfriend.

  64. Larry Ledwick says:

    Bullet drop (from the shooters point of view) is always perpendicular to the true line of sight to the target. The acceleration of gravity is a vector that is always vertical so on a high angle shot the gravitational effect is split into two components the component at right angles to the line of sight (ie the perceived bullet drop to dial into the sight) and the component of gravitational acceleration that affects the bullets velocity. That is why the bullet drop is always high the vector of gravity is always less than 1 when shooting at a high angle so the deviation at right angles to the line of sight is always smaller than it would be if the shot was horizontal.

    At reasonable ranges it can be enough to entirely miss the vital area of a deer or elk if the shooter holds just a bit high on the chest while taking a high angle shot. For a police SWAT sniper if he is trying for an instant incapacitation head shot, the error caused by angle of fire can cause him to completely miss high over the suspects head.

  65. Larry Ledwick says:

    At the range and angle he was shooting at his bullets (5.56) would strike about 1.5 inches high of point of aim based on an angle of fire of about 18 degrees and horizontal distance of about 450 yards.
    Estimating his elevation at 32*14 ft = 448 ft (149 yards) above the street level.

  66. Larry Ledwick says:

    The bump fire stock design was approved by ATF based on their strict interpretation of automatic weapon.

    The way to block this is to add a clause where any weapon capable of firing faster than 150-200 (or some similar limit determined by testing to be very difficult for the average user on a normal trigger system) rounds a minute sustained by the average user would be considered an automatic weapon for the purposes of the 1968 GCA (gun control act)

  67. jim2 says:

    I’ll take a look at that video LL.

  68. Terry Jackson says:

    Another view on the side effects of drugs.

    Posted by John Ringo on Wednesday, October 4, 2017

  69. Power Grab says:

    I hadn’t read that the shooter had been an IRS agent (and mailman) until looking at this thread tonight.

    Remember the term “going postal”?

    I am wondering how many more of the federal employees who, during the previous administration, were given assault weapons and more-than-ample amounts of ammunition are faring these days. How many are treading the thin line between reality and … whatever the MSM is dishing out today.

    I had a housemate one time who was a federal employee. Only lasted a few months, IIRC. Other housemates wanted to evict.

  70. tom0mason says:

    Thanks for info Terry Jackson,
    Last comment in the link about anti-malarial pills was interesting. I’ve had some ‘issues’ after being on them for an extended time — over 2 years, (That was after I was advised to stop taking Chloroquine as it was causing my diarrhea and skin rashes, however a later blood test showed an abnormal blood cell count and some liver damage).
    Later after becoming very tired all the time (due to over-work I now realize!), I was prescribed SSRIs. Took them for about a month, then I stopped as they seemed to cause some visual disturbances, memory problems, and made me more paranoid than was normal. It badly affected my work (forgetting routine things, misplacing items, not recognizing colleges at work, loosing my way less that half a mile from home, etc.,) and it took an age (more than a year) for the effects to dissipate.
    All-in-all not a good experience, and made me very wary of doctors and their recommend treatments.
    I now have ongoing intermittent balance, tremors, and memory problems but I feel I cope with it all much better now I’m retired. (I don’t get lost so often! :-) ).

  71. Larry Ledwick says:

    People would be much better off, if they understood/ viewed drugs as basically being poisons which in small doses have symptoms which are antagonistic to some medical problems. What you are doing, is you are taking a poison compound which has a relatively large difference between its lethal dose and a dose which causes the side effect you want to use to counter some health problem symptom.

    If they viewed them as poisons carefully administered, for their side effects they would be much less likely to have many of the problems from over use, over dose or discounting their negative effects and thinking they are “safe” even if over used.

    Just because the compound is safe for a someone else does not mean it is safe for you due to biological differences.

  72. Larry Ledwick says:

    Another article talks about who the shooter was and his personality.
    It clearly shows the cold fish accountant personally type.

    It implies that he did not have the personality type to be a hustler conman at least in the personal contact sense, although as a former accountant and IRS agent he might have had the skills to run a purely analytical type of con or some sort of money laundering operation. It paints him as a “gray man” that did not stand out and did not socialize. Gambling would give cover for lots or random movements around the country to his several homes, and movements of large sums of money.

    The two phones is interesting, was the two carriers story a cover for a different motivation like one of them being a “special phone” that certain business was conducted on or an electronic leash (when I call this phone you will answer) type of thing?

    It will be interesting to read the book when it comes out as all this gets pieced together.

    The two phones will likely paint an interesting electronic bread crumbs picture of his contact network which might explain why the Sheriff mentioned they were chasing lots of leads.

  73. tom0mason says:

    Larry Ledwick,
    “People would be much better off, if they understood/ viewed drugs as basically being poisons which in small doses have symptoms which are antagonistic to some medical problems. “

    The problem is that when you are sick your abilities to reason correctly may be not be in a fit state. Then most folk tend to just follow the doctor’s orders and hope for the best. When the prescribed drugs cause small and seemingly insignificant side effects over a long time it’s very hard for the patient to know what is happening, especially when those drugs are affecting their thinking. Mistakes are being made, and it appears the doctors and patients are on a steep (and sometimes deadly) learning curve.

    The major problem appears to be that drug companies advise doctor on dosage base on averages. People are not average they are individual and particular both in their physiology and psychology, about which the medics should (IMO) be more aware.

  74. Larry Ledwick says:

    Yep much of it is a doctor problem not a patient problem. They get so cavalier with the drugs they stop thinking about them from the patients view point and don’t give good usage instructions.

    A few years ago I went to a new doctor to get a full physical, we went through the whole drill and at the end he handed me two bottles of pills and said “Here try these” and then turned and walked out of the examining room. I figured he would be right back, and waited a bit but he never showed up again so I left. I had to ask a friend who was a pharmacist what the drug was probably used for after not finding it in an older Physicians desk reference.

    I never went back to him.

  75. llanfar says:

    @Larry Guessing a statin and blood pressure reducer?

  76. E.M.Smith says:

    @Ian W:

    Well I’m an old guy with flabby physique and no military training and I have no problem firing .223 Rem. Heck, I’ve even done it from a hand gun!

    Rapid fire? Easy. Even without a bump stock. It isn’t hard to wiggle a finger…

    BTW, I’ve shot 12 guage slugs. Those kick much harder than .223 Rem. My .357 Magnum handgun is way more “exciting” to control than any rifle I’ve fired. IMHO, in about 2 hours at the range anyone can get good enough to hit a mob with rapid fire .223 Rem.

    So looking at what he did, I see nothing particularly hard about it. He was not doing aimed fire, just point at a crowd and wave it around. Frankly, given the number of weapons, rounds, and tactical position, he did a fairly lousy job of hitting people (thankfully…)

    The interval of firing was about 10 minutes. With a good scope and aimed fire, one hit every 6 seconds is not hard. That would have doubled his kills. A good shooter into a crowd could get that down to about 3 seconds.

    Oh, and it was about 1 hour from last shot to first breach. A trained person would have used that time, not offed himself at first chance.

    Per why no police snipers:

    That the shooting was over in 10 minutes means they did not have time to deploy and get target before he was already dead.

    On the drugs angle:

    I got a dent in my car once from 2 over the counter drugs mixed. Antihistamine and an herbal. Made me a bit slow and “rummy” . Didn’t react fast enough to another car… so technically not my fault, but I’m faster than that… A few days prior to that I’d run a red light on the same mix. I never run reds. I just didn’t notice it until too late. Needless to say, I am now very aware that OTC doesn’t mean “no worries”. My use of antihistamines is now near zero…

    Now that’s mild OTC stuff. Think of the opportunities for unusual reactions or interactions with prescription strength drugs, in Vegas, with booze…

  77. jim2 says:

    The idea that “natural” meds are safer than “man made” meds is just crazy. There are plenty of “natural” chemicals that will kill you quick.

  78. Power Grab says:

    I didn’t realize there were so many postal shootings!

  79. David A says:

    More smoke signals of terrorist motive…
    The sheriffs statement that he may have been ” radicalized”
    The odd referral to the note in the hotel room.
    The lack of media asking questions about these two statements.
    The lack of any counter arguement to the Pam Geller video showing the look alike. (In all likelihood by now the MSM knows who that man in the video is, and if not the perpetrator would have identified him by now.
    Terrorism experts are not ruling out the possibility.
    Trump’s hint that we know alot now.

  80. Lionell Griffith says:

    “The idea that “natural” meds are safer than “man made” meds is just crazy.”

    While it is true that many pharmaceuticals are derived from naturally occurring pharmacologically active substances, acting on the idea that natural means it is safe to ingest can make you very dead. Sometimes painfully slowly, sometimes rather quickly, and other times they can make you wish you were dead. Sometimes being natural is a good thing but it depends more upon the nature of the natural thing than the fact it is from a natural source.

    For small sample of really bad natural stuff see:

  81. Larry Ledwick says:

    Given that they have specifically stated that that note was not a suicide note, and his demonstrated analytical planning I would wager that note is one of two things.

    Most likely in my mind is that it is a range card where he worked out ahead of time, the ballistic corrections he would need to engage specific target areas. You find references to snipers making range cards in almost any search you do regarding long range shooting and sight adjustments for military or tactical (police) type operations. Since he obviously was logical and methodical in his preparation for the attack it would also be logical for him to include such a planning step.
    A range card is usually just a simple sketch of the terrain with key reference points on it with ranges to target and corrections to aim required to engage that target area.

    The second likely contents of that note in my mind is some sort of a schedule for the attack or bullet point list of steps he wanted to take in the attack or some similar attack outline reference.

    So far I have not seen a sufficiently detailed image of the “note” to deteremine if the text pattern fits either of those two theories.

  82. David A says:

    Given that the feds and local police have talked about his extensive planning, I see no reason to withhold information about range notes.

    My guess is the note spoke to motive.

  83. Larry Ledwick says:

    It is bad investigative procedure to leak what is known before you have done your interviews of possibly connected individuals. It deprives you of being able to ask questions that only you know the answer to, and also gives them a clue about acceptable answers.

  84. David A says:

    True, yet the number of rounds, the number of guns etc, many details have been released; things not cogent to motive and help from others.

    We will hopefully find out. IMV the lack of investigation by the MSM is a clue.

  85. jim2 says:

    My third choice after radicalization and left-wing politics is simply the nut didn’t fall far from the patriarchal tree.

  86. Larry Ledwick says:

    They have finally admitted that one of the rounds fired at the jet fuel tank did penetrate the tank.

    Although difficult it is not impossible to ignite a petroleum tank with tracer rounds.
    In Colorado in the late 1980’s someone target shooting, fired a tracer at a petroleum tank on an oil well site. The tracer penetrated the tank just a few inches above the fluid and the vapor mixture in the tank happened to be within the flammable range resulting in an explosion of the vapor.

    I would have to dig through newspaper archives to find the detail info on the incident as it is not being picked up by search engines but I remember it clearly as I was still working at the Colorado Office of Emergency Management at the time.

    Like Air Force fuel tanker aircraft “most of the time” the fuel air mixture is out side the flammable limits but if conditions are right, and the vapor volume is within the explosive range, the smallest spark can set off the vapor.

  87. p.g.sharrow says:

    I once soldered a fuel filler neck to the tank with a torch. Tank was full of gasoline and leaking. The truck owner couldn’t leave the area fast enough! I did take a few precautions to prevent explosions or fire. Called to tell him it was done about the time he got home 2 miles away..;-)….pg. .

  88. catweazle666 says:

    “I once soldered a fuel filler neck to the tank with a torch.”

    The best way to weld a fuel tank is to ensure it is full of vapour by warming the bottom of the tank and lighting the vapour coming out of the neck. So long as it is burning healthily, it isn’t going to go bang. I’ve welded quite a few like that.

    Good way to clear the area, though!

  89. Larry Ledwick says:

    Hmmm interesting twist.

    It appears that his girl friend parked his car at the Mandalay at 12:26 the same day as the shooting. Did she immediately board a plane for the Philippians after dropping off the car?
    Does this indicate that she was with him earlier that day?
    Is this parking ticket legitimate or a fake?

  90. jim2 says:

    Law enforcement might very well be spreading false information so they can spot lies when they interview. This valet receipt isn’t too surprising and Loomer might be doing more harm than good here.

  91. Larry Ledwick says:

    A bit more about the shooter, interesting note in here about his response to The Los Angeles riots.

  92. Larry Ledwick says:

    Looks like this confirmed my earlier comment:

    From the New York times piece above
    A piece of paper with numbers written on it lay on a table near his body.

    Josh Caplan‏ @joshdcaplan 15 minutes ago

    CBS NEWS: Note found in Stephen Paddock’s hotel room had hand-written calculations about where he needed to aim

    The note on the table was a type of range card.
    Probably drop tables / hold over or lead (how far to hold ahead of a running target).

  93. Larry Ledwick says:

    We used to repair fuel tanks by filling them with soapy water and letting it stand for a while then pour out just enough to allow the repair. If the repair was in a bad spot (large airspace) toss in a piece of dry ice and let it fill the vapor space with CO2 before you lit the torch.

  94. Larry Ledwick says:

    The investigation continues to look for motive and is now looking closely at his financial transactions to see if they might be associated with covert financing of terrorist activities.

  95. E.M.Smith says:

    Saw an interview with the police where they said the “note” left behind in the hotel room was a cryptic list of numbers. The announcer was cluefull enough to say this was likely range, distance to target, and elevation information (though just what was different between range and distance to target was unclear – I presume direct line distance vs horizontal distance at baseline).

    Al Jazeera this morning was dissing “Fake News” on Google and Twitter (as those two claimed to be trying to suppress it – figure out what to do about it). The “fake news” was claimed to be his affiliation with left wing / Democratic causes. Would be interesting to get some confirmation of his actual POV and activities… They singled out “4chan” as “Alt-Right” and talked about “the notorious gateway pundit” site. I have not spent much time on either nor have any real clue about their bias, if any. But it would seem they are under attack, so must be right ;-) /sarc;


    So much volume of bits, so little actual veracity.

    There once was a time when Journalists were trained specifically to sniff out the real facts and actual truth and report the reality of events. Now even the journalists of today are in the business of salacious fabrication. So we’ve got Governments who have always run raw propaganda operations, we’ve got clandestine Troll Brigades (government, “NGO”, and rich kids ops),Corporate PR Departments, political party pressure ops (from Communists to Dems to Right Wing Nuts), and The Collective Media all out there MSU (Making Shit UP). But that’s not enough, so now we’ve got the recruitment of Google, Twitter, Facebook et. al. into the propaganda process to stifle the only really free voices, the people who post independent accounts, observations, and run blogs.

    They say “Truth is the first casualty of war”. Well, since we’re seeing Truth die before our eyes, we must be in a war… Not just the Climate Change fraud and lies, but so much more. When you can’t even get clean reporting of a nut job shooting people, it’s all gone off the rails.

    Now I have no idea if he was a Hillary Ideologue and that is being erased / hidden; or if he is a blank slate and someone from the Right Wing Nuts saw a propaganda opportunity. But what galls me is that to have any clue about the reality, I would have to spend many hours being a Journalist in the old mould and Digging In to get the real story. We have Terabytes of data and bandwidth available, and it is slowing being monopolized with noise and FUD. (Fear Uncertainty & Doubt).

  96. E.M.Smith says:

    Per fuel tanks and igniting:

    Remember that jet fuel is basically kerosene, but it has a narrower vaporization range. The really light stuff and really heavy stuff in normal K1 are removed (leaving the average viscosity about the same). This is so that there is less risk of vapor forming at low pressure of altitude and less risk of solids precipitating at extreme cold of altitude. The removal of light volatiles also makes it less prone to ignition (and there are other things done to reduce explosion / fire hazards in crashes).

    All this means a tank of Jet Fuel is not nearly as likely to ignite at one of gasoline. And gasoline is not as easy to ignite with a bullet as folks expect.

    Per welding a fuel tank:

    I’d not do that “light the vapors” trick. I grew up with a kid who’s Dad died welding a fuel tank on the family farm… and supposedly “knew what he was doing” and “had done it before”. Yes, you can do it, but the ‘water fill’ is the better method. Dry ice if that’s all you can do. Tank Nitrogen if you have lots of it… Boil the gas and light it? Um, no thanks…
    (Yes, theoretically it will work most of the time. I’m worried about the 1:1000 where you get the match to the vapors a bit too soon and it’s in the flammable / explosive transition zone…)


    Key bit being “FULL”… Liquid gasoline doesn’t burn… Though I’d have wanted to top it off with inert gas like CO2 or N2 or Argon or something…

    TIG with inert Argon shield gas on the outside where welding, other inert gas flood of the inside, put a vent sucker near the filler cap to capture any venting fuel vapors (in the inert flood gas) and vent them outside… Yeah, I might consider that ;-)

  97. Larry Ledwick says:

    I saw a report this morning that was allegedly from a prostitute the shooter used to hire.
    She asserted that he hated government (makes sense given his fathers fugitive status) and after a big win in the casino would take her upstairs and and have angry violent sex with her.

    This if true implies he had some anger issues, and fits the mold of the classic quiet type who suddenly goes off. I fail to see an emotional pay off for him in this crime if his agenda was to get back at the government though so there are still some pieces missing.

    Perhaps the emotional pay off was confirmation of his “born bad” self image and being a numbers guy the “win” was notoriety, and having the highest body count for mass murder

  98. jim2 says:

    Some libtards are TV are pointing to Australia as a good model for gun laws. I.e., confiscate them. So now, there the weapon of choice for homicide is a knife, and hanging for suicide. Both still happen.

    Australia has outlaw gangs and they do have guns, even the dreaded machine gun. Those guns have been used against government figures as well as regular citizens.

    The murder rate is lower in Oz vs the US. But they don’t have violent youth gangs as we do in DC and Chicago. DC has the highest per capita murder rate of any US jurisdiction.

    And of course, none of the liberals on the Sunday talk show produced any numbers showing how many murders and crimes were prevented by US citizens with legal guns. (Given the Constitution, it’s difficult to see how any gun is illegal, but that’s just me.)

  99. p.g.sharrow says:

    @EMSmith; inert gas is key to preventing explosion under any condition when welding on fuel impregnated metal tanks. Having the tank full reduces the chance of vapor pressure flash from the heating. Also covered the area with WET burlap bags to prevent fire from the leaking gasoline…pg

  100. E.M.Smith says:


    Hey, it’s the kind of thing I’d be willing to do if needed. I’d prefer water filled if possible, but for a full leaking tank, you have as much risk from draining it as just leaving it full. You said solder ( I said weld) and I’d be willing to try solder with an electric iron (if a very big one ;-)

    I like inert gas. Inert gas is your friend ;-) Liquid is good, inert gas makes it very good.

    It’s a FAE or BLEVE that’s the problem (Fuel Air Explosive / Boiling Liquid Expanding Vapor Explosion) so the #1 thing is to prevent fuel vapor from mixing with air. Draining the tank fills it with fuel / air mix… so you go through a higher risk stage on your way to water filling it. If the patch is small enough, it’s less risk to let a bit of gasoline burn on the surface while you seal it and avoid the tank of air / fuel mix time on the way to water fill.

    Oh, and some folks doing water fill end up with an air pocket of some size, and forget that residual fuel floats and vaporizes… Oh Dear…

    @Another Ian:

    That’s a Very Interesting Link.

    So he was caught in the process of preparing… Either he thought he could lock shut enough of the doors with added screws and such so that he could use all those guns, or he had advance set up duty and was expecting a few friends to join for the actual shoot. In either case, the guard who interrupted it saved a lot of folks…

  101. Larry Ledwick says:

    And now they are tossing out the whole time line as they realize the guard got shot before the mass shooting began. This of course raises questions about did the guard call down to the security dispatch and let them know or was he for some reason wounded but unable to call (dropped radio perhaps in the kill zone in the hallway?)

    Looks like it will take another week for them to sort out the time line and I imagine scan the video on about 1000 surveillance cameras and stitch it all together into a correct time line.

  102. E.M.Smith says:


    Well, when you are shot I’d expect your first response is to get the hell out of there. Shot in the leg means he will be slow on stairs, so depending on if he made a “hobble” for the elevator or for back stairs, he could be “in transit” for a few minutes. I could easily see the radio being dropped. They are rarely on lanyards, and most ‘guards’ don’t have the nice shoulder mic belt mount the police use.

    Also, as it was just about 10 minutes from guard shot to crowd shooting, it could very easily be the case that he did radio down, and that escalated to management (send internal guards or call cops? decision) so by then you are about 4 to 5 minutes into it. A couple to get to a safe spot, one to radio down, another to explain, third for the other end to decided what to do, 2 more to get a manager and explain… 5 to 7 already, then call the cops and add 2 more, radio to car, local starts to respond, shooting out the window starts…

    It could be real easy to chew through 10 minutes in that chain to Code 3 local cop running toward the scene, to be met by gunfire.

    I know my first couple of minutes (once shot in the leg) would be focused on self preservation and getting to where I was secure enough to call out. Then you have 2 levels of “dispatch” and perhaps a management layer to go through. You might expect a “run book” saying “IF shooting, call cops”, but this is a Name Casino and I’d expect them to want to keep hushed things like a guy popping off one round in the Whale Suites … if he’d just scored some bad drugs and was in need of cooling out. So a more likely “run book” entry would be “IF above 20th floor, escalate to Floor Manager, else call cops.” IMHO.

    What still nags at me is the number of guns and only one shooter. No way he could use that many even with lots of time. A half dozen with lots of magazines would be more effective. Was he, in fact, just the “set up man” with a couple of more shooters expected to show up in about 30 minutes? I doubt we will ever know. Part of the problem being that “nutty people” who do mass shootings are by definition going to do “nutty things”, like haul a few hundred pounds of guns and ammo up stairs… then only shoot for 10 minutes.

    My guess is that it will be months before the real story gets dug up, if ever.

  103. p.g.sharrow says:

    It would appear that shots at the fuel tanks was not accidental and machine gunning of the crowd was for the planned escape in the confusion.
    Crap hits the fan with the gunning of the security guard and the shoot and run plan fell apart.
    Kind of hard to believe all of that weaponry was for just one shooter, but none of this looks rational to me. I have had to deal with people like this. They think that they are rational and act sane for years but at some point they snap and attack their antagonists, everyone around them, even those that help them…pg

  104. Larry Ledwick says:

    My feeling exactly on the guard, first priority would be to get clear. The shooter fired something like 200 rounds through the door. The guard was found near the elevator by the swat team when they came out on the floor (they did not know he was up there so the communication loop [guard, security office, evaluate report to police, dispatch advise police on scene] had not been closed by that time.)

    What still nags at me is the number of guns and only one shooter. No way he could use that many even with lots of time. A half dozen with lots of magazines would be more effective.

    I can see one legitimate reason for a lot of guns up there. Those bump stocks fire at a rate that would very quickly over heat the guns. (you can literally melt barrels on full auto rates of fire)
    I have seen one comment that asserts many of the guns he was using were jammed.

    It would make sense to run the gun until it over heated and jammed, drop it and pick up the next.
    Second question is if his guns (the AR-15 clones) were chambered with the small base .223 chambers or if he was smart enough to be sure to get them with the large base NATO 5.56 chambers which are less prone to jamming from over heating.

    All that of course will take time to filter out as the investigation makes sense out of the info they have at hand.

  105. p.g.sharrow says:

    That might explain the numbers of guns with big banana clips. Just fire until it jams and grab the next. At semi-auto those things jam quickly, no need to reload as it jammed before the clip emptied….pg

  106. E.M.Smith says:

    Hmmm… which way works best for the “wrong” ammo:

    NATO in .223 or
    .223 in NATO?

    I would expect small base .223 in NATO as usually bigger base in smaller hole would tend to be too tight or not go at all. Makes me wonder if it was an after the AwShit change by NATO or a design goal pushed at making .223 more difficult to use scrounged NATO ammo.

    Unfortunately, I’ve never gotten into military style .223 guns enough to learn the fine points. I went to the Russian SK / .30 Cal. guns due to quality at a low price and meeting Kalifornia Nutty Rules while being more lethal… good for deer and small bears too (the most likely targets in a run to the wilderness post disaster scenario, also the mountain lions we have in larger numbers now that have eaten some folks… I like camping as much as the next guy, but would rather not end up critter food…) I’ve always wanted an AR-15 variation, but never could see dumping a $ k on one in the brief windows of legality in Kalifornia. So far I’ve read the tea leaves well enough to stay inside the rules even as they change.

    Maybe after the move to Florida :-)

  107. David A says:

    I carried a radio daily for years and saw security with similar radios in hotels. Yes, clipped and only semi secure. You can walk and run and not dislodge, but you can knock them off by bumping into something. I have also called security over unruly crowds and fights occurring.

    I would think if shot my first instinct would be to get to a secure station and ASAP call security…shots fired, wounded, need back up and medical. I cannot see this being more then 30 seconds.

    Also, my guess would be it would be standard hotel procedure to immediately notify the police of active gun fire. ( Major hotel liability to not do thus I presume)

    Also I have seen no reports of 911 calls to the police from adjoining rooms; ” hey loud gunfire right next to my room” I presume this had to be called in. Add in the broken windows and I would guess every cop should have known where the fire was coming from.

    Yes, the 23 guns is disturbing.
    Appears to be overkill for one person. Shooters check in date time now in question as well.

    There is a blogger claiming to have done a sound ballistics analysis of the audio tapes, documenting two shooters via time lag between shot reports and pavement strikes. He gets about 370 yards for the M.B. and a second series at about 225 yards. ( It sounded logical but not within my ability to tell)

    Larry, yes you appear to be right about the note, but my question is how would that help fire from a semi auto equipped with a bump stock? Accuracy must have gone to hell, especially when shooting at max range. Just a generic try to shoot a bit high would have been equally good.
    Yet if longer shooting time was planned, perhaps true sniper fire was part of the plan.

  108. Larry Ledwick says:

    The difference between the commercial .223 and NATO is not in the cartridge dimensions but in the chamber dimensions in the rifle. The NATO chamber has a bit more taper to it toward the base (which when the round is fired swells the case enough that the empty brass will not fit in a standard .223 chamber). Spent brass must be full length resized to squeeze down the base of the brass back to nominal dimensions if it is reloaded. This looser chamber is specifically to reduce jamming and function when hot or dirty.

    Military spec brass is harder than civilian .223 brass and loaded to slightly higher pressures than civilian .223.

    From Wiki (
    5.56×45mm NATO maximum NATO cartridge dimensions. All sizes in millimeters (mm).[16][17]

    According to the official NATO proofing guidelines the 5.56×45mm NATO case can handle up to 430.0 MPa (62,366 psi) piezo service pressure. In NATO regulated organizations every rifle cartridge combo has to be proofed at 125% of this maximum pressure 537.5 MPa (77,958 psi) to certify for service issue.

    The US SAAMI lists Maximum Average Pressure (MAP) for the .223 Remington cartridge as 55,000 psi (379.2 MPa) piezo pressure with deviation of up to 58,000 psi (399.9 MPa).[18][19] The chambering for military 5.56×45mm NATO has a longer throat prior to the bullet contacting the rifling which results in lower pressures when firing 5.56×45mm NATO ammunition. If 5.56×45mm NATO is used in rifles chambered for .223 Remington the bullet will be engraving the rifling when chambered which can dramatically increase pressure past the proof test level.[11]

    The C.I.P. rulings for the C.I.P. civilian .223 Remington chambering are much closer to the military 5.56×45mm NATO chambering.[20]

    The reported two shooter theory is bogus!
    What people are responding to is the sound of the muzzle report (one shooter) and the sonic crack of the bullet as it passes nearby (the alleged second shooter)

    At 400 years a .223/5.56 bullet is still very substantially supersonic and makes a very sharp crack like a bull whip as the bullet passes near the observer. When in the target pits down range you can hear a very distinct delay between the bullet crack and the muzzle report when you get to ranges greater than 200-300 yards.

    M193 ball 5.56 NATO leaves the muzzle at 3100 ft/sec and is still going 1710 ft/sec at 400 yards – 1429 ft/sec 500 yards (the range to target at Mandalay Bay shooting)

    That gives an average bullet velocity of about 2300 ft/sec. Speed of sound for the muzzle blast is about 1100 ft/second.
    Time of flight of the bullet about 0.63 seconds more or less, time for the muzzle blast to reach the same range 1.3 seconds so approximately a 0.7 second delay between the two perceived sounds. The human ear can detect phase delays as small as 10 microseconds (phase delay used by the brain to determine location of high frequency sounds “interaural time difference”)

    Plus you have echos from the muzzle blast being reflected off the other wing of the hotel and the building across the street. Someone who has experience with bullets passing overhead instantly recognizes the difference between the two sounds. The bullet crack is a very sharp “snap” sound for a 5.56. The muzzle blast, like lightning has more of a low frequency component the farther away it is. At 600 yards the muzzle blast of a 7.62 NATO sounds more like a thump than a bang when you are in the target pits.

    People who have never been down range when someone is shooting in their direction would not recognize the difference between the two sounds.

    The Snap thump delay allows experienced soldiers to judge both how close the bullets are passing by them, but also approximately the distance and direction from which they were fired.

    Long delay snap and dull thump long range but bullet still supersonic, snap bang with little delay the shooter is very close. Whizzzzz thump long delay bullet is subsonic and shooter is far away (long enough to be past the subsonic transition range for that bullet / cartridge & caliber.
    7.62 NATO is supersonic out to about 1000 yards, 5.56 around 600-700 yards and 7.62x 39 (AK 47) about 400-450 yards is the super sonic transition range.- ( which is also the range where accuracy goes to hell in a hand basket due to turbulence as the bullet goes sub-sonic)

  109. Another Ian says:

    Re Larry Ledwick says:
    18 October 2017 at 2:21 am

    “And subsonic turbulence”

    Any idea of what a military .303 British 174 grain Mk VII would be doing at 900 yards? IIRC 2440 fps was their muzzle velocity.

    Just that the Commonwealth long range target competitions went out to 900 yards with .303’s.for many years pre 7.62’s without such accuracy problems.

  110. E.M.Smith says:

    @Another Ian:

    I don’t think it is subsonic that causes instability per se, but that the .223 bullet is designed to tumble and by that time has likely lost a lot of stabilizing rotation as well. Perhaps with some interaction between loss of the shock cone and spin at the subsonic transition or just being built to be unstable without a shock cone.

    Lord knows there are LOTS of highly accurate match shooters with .45 ACP (that never see supersonic….)

  111. Larry Ledwick says:

    Yes it is the transition from supersonic to subsonic that upsets the bullet as different parts of the bullet experience the buffeting of that transition process as the shockwaves break up and move around. Remember the stories of how test pilots got into severe buffeting as they got near the speed of sound in the X planes?
    Same thing with the bullet small imperfections in the alignment of the bullet and the actual path of flight and local wind direction cause the air to pass over the bullet at a slight angle so it is never perfectly aligned with the direction of air motion. At around Mach 1.2 the transition process begins and the supersonic shock wave at the nose and tail of the bullet starts to break down which upsets the bullet and causes random disturbances in its position leading to the buffeting.

    Subsonic transition and that buffeting starts to dramatically increase random error and depending on the specifics of that bullet and rifle it was fired from, this sets up the conditions for tumbling to occur.

    Differing rifling twists and muzzle velocities provide best stabilization for only one bullet length, too fast and the bullet is over stabilized and refuses to nose over at long range and turn into the direction of fall as it passes peak ordinate (highest point in trajectory). The angle of fall at very long range (near 1000+ yards) is significant (will actually leave an elongated hole in a target at long range) so the bullet is actually flying slightly sideways with respect to the air flow. If the spin is just right, the bullet will try to turn into the direction of fall and fly in line with the local airflow in its lowest drag alignment. Under stabilized and the bullet will start to wobble with the nose and tail of the bullet precessing like a toy gyroscope getting ready to fall over. Eventually the forces cause that wobble to trip into full tumbling as the nose of the bullet gets yanked back behind the center of mass so that it flies more base first so that the center of mass leads the center of aerodynamic drag.

  112. Larry Ledwick says:

    Ref .303 British 174 Gr from JBM ballistics calculator (I hope wordpress does not screw this up too much)

    JBM ballistics ( )
    Reply [ Try instead. -E.M.Smith]
    Input Data
    Ballistic Coefficient: 0.493 G1 Caliber: 0.303 in
    Bullet Weight: 174.0 gr
    Muzzle Velocity: 2440.0 ft/s Distance to Chronograph: 10.0 ft
    Sight Height: 1.50 in Sight Offset: 0.00 in
    Zero Height: 0.00 in Zero Offset: 0.00 in
    Windage: 0.000 MOA Elevation: 0.000 MOA
    Line Of Sight Angle: 0.0 deg Cant Angle: 0.0 deg
    Wind Speed: 10.0 mph Wind Angle: 90.0 deg
    Target Speed: 10.0 mph Target Angle: 90.0 deg
    Target Height: 12.0 in
    Temperature: 59.0 °F Pressure: 29.92 in Hg
    Humidity: 0 % Altitude: 0.0 ft
    Vital Zone Radius: 5.0 in
    Std. Atmosphere at Altitude: No Pressure is Corrected: Yes
    Zero at Max. Point Blank Range: No Target Relative Drops: Yes
    Mark Sound Barrier Crossing: No Include Extra Rows: No
    Column 1 Units: 1.00 in Column 2 Units: 1.00 MOA
    Round Output to Whole Numbers: No
    Output Data
    Elevation: 8.445 MOA Windage: 0.000 MOA
    Atmospheric Density: 0.07647 lb/ft³ Speed of Sound: 1116.4 ft/s
    Maximum PBR: 300 yd Maximum PBR Zero: 254 yd
    Range of Maximum Height: 140 yd Energy at Maximum PBR: 1464.7 ft•lbs
    Sectional Density: 0.271 lb/in²
    Calculated Table

    Range	Drop	Drop	Windage	Windage	Velocity	Mach	Energy	Time	Lead	Lead
    (yd)	(in)	(MOA)	(in)	(MOA)	(ft/s)	(none)	(ft•lbs)	(s)	(in)	(MOA)
    100 	4.3 	4.1 	0.8 	0.8 	2272.6 	2.036 	1995.1 	0.127 	22.4 	21.4
    200 	3.3 	1.6 	3.4 	1.6 	2106.3 	1.887 	1713.8 	0.264 	46.5 	22.2
    300 	-5.5 	-1.7 	7.8 	2.5 	1947.2 	1.744 	1464.7 	0.413 	72.6 	23.1
    400 	-23.4 	-5.6 	14.5 	3.5 	1795.8 	1.609 	1245.8 	0.573 	100.8 	24.1
    500 	-52.2 	-10.0 	23.6 	4.5 	1653.0 	1.481 	1055.6 	0.747 	131.5 	25.1
    600 	-93.8 	-14.9 	35.3 	5.6 	1520.0 	1.361 	892.5 	0.936 	164.8 	26.2
    700 	-150.4 	-20.5 	49.9 	6.8 	1398.3 	1.252 	755.3 	1.142 	201.0 	27.4
    800 	-224.8 	-26.8 	67.7 	8.1 	1289.6 	1.155 	642.4 	1.366 	240.4 	28.7
    900 	-320.2 	-34.0 	88.7 	9.4 	1196.0 	1.071 	552.5 	1.608 	283.0 	30.0
    1000 	-439.9 	-42.0 	112.8 	10.8 	1119.2 	1.002 	483.8 	1.867 	328.7 	31.4 

    You can go to that url and fiddle with the parameters and print out a custom table for just about anything. Finding the ballistics coefficient is usually the hardest part if they don’t have your bullet design in their table of bullets on the pull down menu.

    PBR is point blank range the maximum distance you can hold directly on the intended point of impact and still hit within what you consider a circle of acceptable error (vital zone radius in the chart)

  113. Larry Ledwick says:

    I calculated the above table with a zero range of 250 yards which is pretty typical of most hunting and military capable firearm cartridges. Modest highest point above line of sight at midrange and dead on hold out to ranges most shooters are not comfortable shooting at with iron sights.

  114. Larry Ledwick says:

    Lord knows there are LOTS of highly accurate match shooters with .45 ACP (that never see supersonic….)

    .22 LR match ammo is also loaded to stay subsonic it avoids the transition by staying below it the whole way to the target. (it is also a low pressure load so the turbulence created as the bullet “uncorks” the barrel and the powder gases surge past the bullet is minimized.

    13 minute on bullet aerodynamic stability.

  115. Another Ian says:


    IIRC the .303 pbr sighting was for 300 yards. Looks like it was still above supersonic at 900 yards.

    E.M. Re tumbling. The cheat of the time with the Mk VII bullet (after the dumdum witch hunt) was that the Mk VII spitzer being fmj passed then convention requirements. Notwithstanding it being base heavy and designed to tumble on impact.

Comments are closed.