Paris Is A Mess – Macron Is In Trouble

About 80% of the population is on-side with the Yellow Vests. They are in riot to oppose “doing something about climate change” by raising gas prices.

All day and into the night, last week, compressed into 38 minutes. Street fires and tear gas under trees with Christmas lights…

From 17 November in 17 minutes (so a bit over 2 weeks ago).

1 December, in 4 minutes:

Doesn’t look to me like this is ending anytime soon. Macron needs to realize he can back down and “listen to the people” or he can be run out of office while giving an abject lesson to every other “leader” in the world that raising transport costs for “Climate Change” is a quick trip to Public Riot and a date with Tar & Feathers.

UPDATE:

Here’s 18 minutes in Bordeaux just a few hours ago (posted 7 hours ago as I type).

I especially like their Motorcycle Brigade in Yellow Vests. It is looking to me like they could pull off a general shutdown of the French Economy, which would cause the Greedy Evil Bastards (GEBs) losing money to dump Macron in flash. (We all know the real source of political power is the money buying the politicians…)

I wish the people of France well in their attempt to throw off this yoke of Tax Tyranny. Maybe while they are at it they can find time to start a “FREXIT” of their own… It certainly looks like they have a huge majority of the people behind an anti-UN-Climate-Agenda and an anti-EU-Climate-Tax-And-Fraud-Scheme. Maybe there is hope for France yet…

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About E.M.Smith

A technical managerial sort interested in things from Stonehenge to computer science. My present "hot buttons' are the mythology of Climate Change and ancient metrology; but things change...
This entry was posted in Global Warming General, News Related, Political Current Events and tagged , , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

141 Responses to Paris Is A Mess – Macron Is In Trouble

  1. beththeserf says:

    I know I shouldn’t say it
    but schadenfreude to
    that creepy Paris Treaty
    and its globalist creators,
    no heads tumbling but
    energy taxes crumbling
    beneath le tramp, tramp, tramp
    of les gilets jaunes pieds. Allez!
    Et hopefully FREXIT from
    cet EU et UN thralldom.
    Mon Dieu!, Sacre Bleu!

  2. Another Ian says:

    As one of Australia’s old time politicians observed

    “Today a rooster

    Tomorrow a feather duster”

  3. beththeserf says:

    Have just learned, alack, at Jo Nova that Oz Prime Minister Scott Morrison has signed the Paris Accord. My response @JN :
    A fifth column act w/out the approval of the Nation’s people. Government from afar by non-elected swill. There’s a Quadrant Magazine article by a Professor of Law at Queensland University, James Allan, ‘The Problem of Creeping International Legal Rule,’ September 2016,* that explores the ways in which two kinds of International Law exert undemocratic influence on domestic law.(* Should be available online but Google tells me ‘No,’)

    The first is by way of ambiguously phrased UN International Treaties that play an increasingly large and influential role in determining judicial outcomes compared to less ambiguous, domestic regulations, international treaties which have been formulated without any citizen input. The second type of international law, known as customary law, is a non-treaty sort of international law that can flow on from treaties and have influence on local judicial decision making although it has never been agreed to by any accountable legislators. Who gets to make these decisions are publicists, legal academics who have no democratic warrant whatsoever, and as James Allan points out, as a group ‘may well have political and moral views that diverge from those of the general public.’ And James Allan notes, regarding the election of this group of people into the International Court of Justice, many of them from non-democracies, a great deal of horse trading takes place, a method of selecting International Court judges that Allan describes as ‘opaque,’ The article is a detailed description of ways, via International Law, that a nation’s voters are overwhelmingly locked out when it comes to resolving debatable social policies.
    ==============================================================

    What to do, eventually a gilets jaunes backlash? Seems unlikely. Students in Oz already brainwashed and doing their street protest, this week, for save the planet from globull warming.
    Gramsci’s creepy long-march thro’ the institution proceeds down under… how ter bell the cat-asstrophe?

  4. Simon Derricutt says:

    The problem is that Macron really believes he’s doing the right thing, so he’s unlikely to shift that much. Raising the fuel/energy costs will of course mean that people will use less of it, but it will also make France less productive and generally poorer. Macron will most likely regard this impoverishment as a necessary action to avoid a worse disaster, since he doesn’t expect scientists to get things wrong. Obviously he hasn’t the scientific experience, since he’s been in politics instead and relied on advisers for the technical stuff.

    With the YSM in full flood about how we need to avoid emitting any CO2 at all in order to avoid a cat ass trophy (similar to a Darwin Award but looks nicer on the shelf) and the statements that CO2 has a dwell-time in the atmosphere of hundreds of years rather than the 5-year or so dwell-time that seems logical from the ~4kg of CO2 per m² and the crop-weight per m² of ground or sea, I don’t see many politicians (apart from the Donald) going against the consensus and saying it’s all a load of bollocks. Much the same as few politicians went against Eugenics almost a century ago. https://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/human-testing-the-eugenics-movement-and-irbs-724 . It helps to look at history and see what “everyone knows” that was wrong.

    Maybe after a few hard winters it will become obvious that the world isn’t warming, though maybe (as Larry says) it will morph to CAGC (cat-ass-trophic anthropological global cooling) instead and it will still be All Our Fault and we’ll need to pay more taxes to avoid it. After all, in “The Day After Tomorrow” such instant Ice Age was promoted as being scientifically possible and caused by human emissions of CO2, and we all know how many people (and politicians) believe what Hollywood portrays. If something is repeated often enough, it tends to be taken as truth.

  5. Spetzer86 says:

    Gas prices in the American heartland are around $2/gallon now. Ever wonder if this is how MAGA plays out? Simply by pushing ahead to become a global energy leader, could the USA trigger the collapse of the globalist’s agenda?

  6. seabrznsun says:

    Back quite a few years ago the French used a guillotine in a similar situation.
    Over in Poland they’re having Christian celebrations in the streets. It looks lovely.

  7. John F. Hultquist says:

    E.M. — can you link to your “Transpacific” treaty post of awhile back. Beth @ 9:39 mentions things that relate to that.

    For Simon Derricutt : who writes that someone else says about CO2 dwell-time

    In a statement to the Court of the Northern District of California, Happer, Koonin, & Lindzen wrote:
    At present, there is a little more than 400 ppm of CO2 in the air, so if large amounts of CO2 were not being added to the air by various mechanisms (some of which we will discuss in the answer to Question 7) plants would use up the atmospheric CO2 in about eight years and die of starvation.
    Your Honor:

    I have thought that CO2 is being added at about 4 and being used at about 2 ppm per year. (round whole numbers) So at 400, getting back to 300 would take about 50 years [400 – 2*50 = 300] .
    Large blocks of rapidly growing crops, such as corn or grapes, can draw down CO2 to near zero during the morning of a good growing day. We do know that plants will continue to grow as the atmospheric CO2 goes toward 280 (recent historic level). It is just that they do not grow as well.
    I’d like 2nd, 3rd, and 4th opinions on this issue from biologists such as Craig Idso who has training in Agronomy, and with others, has actually researched such thngs.
    http://www.co2science.org

    If I get some time, I’ll look on the site.

    PS: The very long dwell-time is true only in the sense that if a currently produced CO2 molecule is produced today, and then becomes part of a large tree, that grows for 300 years, dies and is buried, and takes 1,000 years to decay — then you can claim your (Carbon) molecule was around a long time.

  8. Simon Derricutt says:

    John – the CO2 dwell-time problem was the statement that CO2 put into the atmosphere today will be affecting our kids and their kids etc. (as in overheating the world) for a century or two. An AlGoreism, I think, but still gets quoted at me at times. Similarly, the statement that 2ppm is used and 4ppm added, that you quoted, simply has to be wrong, given around 10,000kg of air above 1m² of land or ocean and thus only around 4kg of that being CO2. Given that the weight of plant-matter (or algae in the oceans) produced per m² is comparable to that, and that the Carbon in that must come from the atmosphere, it seems that the turnover rate must be a lot faster. Somewhere over 10% (50ppm or so) must be taken out each year, and thus a little more (say 52ppm or so) added overall to get that 2ppm increase.

    Basically, I feel that we are being lied to on some very basic science. Given that increased CO2 leads to increased growth rate, then there’s a negative feedback loop there, and so it seems unlikely that the 3% or so extra (over natural emissions) CO2 emitted by humans would produce the same 3% increase in atmospheric concentrations. It would be nice to know the actual rate of take-up relative to the actual concentration, but since as you note the actual concentration in a growing field can drop down to almost zero (or at least under 150ppm) once photosynthesis kicks in, it seems pretty clear that it would simply take a little longer to reach near-zero conditions if the concentration was higher. In that case, all human contributions would be eaten by the plants and we’d see no increase from that.

    It just seems that the Carbon cycle is a lot more active, and faster, than we’re being told. As far as I can tell, the increased CO2 concentration is far more likely to be exhalations from a warming ocean than because of the small amount humans are adding. This is of course saying that they’ve got the cause and effect the wrong way round. Yes, there’s a correlation between global temperatures and the CO2 level, but it’s the rising temperatures that cause the CO2 to rise.

    Meantime, I’ve just put another log on the fire to do my bit in recycling Carbon into CO2 in order to feed the plants…. So far, Macron isn’t taxing firewood.

  9. John F. Hultquist says:

    I think the (about) 4 vs 2 ppm are just what humans add.
    Earth processes cycle C and CO2 in much greater quantities.

    Note the word “anthropogenic” in this quote from an abstract:
    http://www.co2science.org/articles/V12/N31/EDIT.php
    ” In a paper recently published in the international peer-reviewed journal Energy & Fuels, Dr. Robert H. Essenhigh (2009), Professor of Energy Conversion at The Ohio State University, addresses the residence time (RT) of anthropogenic CO2 in the air. He finds that the RT for bulk atmospheric CO2, the molecule 12CO2, is ~5 years, in good agreement with other cited sources (Segalstad, 1998), while the RT for the trace molecule 14CO2 is ~16 years. ”

    I haven’t read the rest of it.

  10. Larry Ledwick says:

    One way to measure that uptake rate would be to just plop a big sealed green house over a plot of land and see how long it takes to suck the CO2 out of a known volume of air from a know surface area of vegetation.

    Sure you can’t build a 10 km square glass box over a forest but you should be able to get some ball park numbers for various types of vegetation.

    I wonder what the CO2 rates were in that sealed space simulator environment in Arizona a few years ago? ( Biosphere 2)

    https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/mars-biosphere-2-elon-musk-astronauts-space-training-arizona-a8332851.html
    As biospherians would discover, concrete that lined the facility’s base was soaking up carbon dioxide. Soil microbes were gobbling up oxygen, turning it into carbon dioxide, and trapping it the concrete — away from plants that could turn it back into oxygen.

    This led oxygen levels to drop to the equivalent of the peak of a 15,000-foot mountain. To fix the problem, biospherians tried to collect every scrap of organic matter, dry it out in the Technosphere, and halt its decay.

  11. Larry Ledwick says:

    Other sealed environments
    https://www.wired.com/2016/02/the-strange-messy-history-of-self-sustaining-habitats/

    This gives a good hint at CO2 balance rates but it seems the data has gotten sequestered and not utilized to give a good estimate of global CO2 turn over. Clearly daily fluctuations show that biologic respiration can easily suck up excess CO2 if vegetation is given adequate resources to grow.

    http://environment-ecology.com/ecological-design/255-biosphere-2.html
    During the first mission, the oxygen inside the facility, which began at 20.9%, fell at a steady pace and after 16 months was down to 14.5%. This is equivalent to the oxygen availability at an elevation of 4,080 meters (13,400 ft).[17] Since some biospherians were starting to have symptoms like sleep apnea and fatigue, Walford and the medical team decided to boost oxygen with injections in January and August 1993.

    Daily fluctuation of carbon dioxide dynamics was typically 600 ppm because of the strong drawdown during sunlight hours by plant photosynthesis, followed by a similar rise during the nighttime when system respiration dominated. As expected, there was also a strong seasonal signature to CO2 levels, with wintertime levels as high as 4,000-4,500 and summertime levels near 1,000 ppm. The crew worked to manage the CO2 by occasionally turning on a CO2 scrubber, activating and de-activating the desert and savannah through control of irrigation water, cutting and storing biomass to sequester carbon, and utilizing all potential planting areas with fast-growing species to increase system photosynthesis.[18]

    Many suspected the drop in oxygen was due to microbes in the soil. The soils were selected to have enough carbon to provide for the plants of the ecosystems to grow from infancy to maturity, a plant mass increase of perhaps 20 tons (18,000 kg).[19] The release rate of that soil carbon as carbon dioxide by respiration of soil microbes was an unknown that the Biosphere 2 experiment was designed to reveal. El Nino weather systems blocked necessary sunlight resulting in lower oxygen production.

    The respiration rate was faster than the photosynthesis (possibly in part due to relatively low light penetration through the glazed structure) resulting in a slow decrease of oxygen. A mystery accompanied the oxygen decline: the corresponding increase in carbon dioxide did not appear. This concealed the underlying process until an investigation by Jeff Severinghaus and Wallace Broecker of Columbia University’s Lamont Doherty Earth Observatory using isotopic analysis showed that carbon dioxide was reacting with exposed concrete inside Biosphere 2 to form calcium carbonate, thereby sequestering the carbon dioxide and, as part of it, the oxygen that had disappeared.[20]

    The discovery of the small difference between rate of respiration and rate of photosynthesis depended on the extremely low leak rate of Biosphere 2. It was shown by Dempster that had Biosphere 2 leaked as much as other closed ecological test chambers, the wash-out effect of outside air mixing in would have concealed the entire imbalance.

  12. Simon Derricutt says:

    John – thanks, that CO2science article makes sense to me, and seems far more down-to-earth as regards how fast the recycling actually is. It also points out the errors in the IPCC estimate of 50-200 years residence time, and why that led the IPCC to the wrong conclusions.

    I suppose this comes down to the slide-rule versus calculator problem. With a slide-rule, you need to know the order of magnitude of the result and so a wrong answer will jar and you’ll re-work the problem. With a calculator, the Machine Is Always Right so an order of magnitude is simply accepted. I’ve seen people use a calculator to multiply 2 by 3….

    Larry – that “problem” of concrete absorbing CO2 for around 20 years (and gradually getting harder as it does) only became known to climate scientists after those biosphere tests (NASA ones IIRC, not the Musk ones). Concrete makers and geologists had known it a long time. A little amusing when it’s stated that 1/4 of the human emissions are from making cement, but then a lot of that gets sucked back over the next few decades but that isn’t counted. Balancing the books with complex cycles isn’t so easy.

  13. J Martin says:

    I think that the assesment that Macron won’t back down may be right, but it will cost the French economy and reduce tourism. Marine Le Pen should gain votes from that.

    I find it strange that politicians like Macron think they can meet the IPCC recommendations by fidling about with demand management which cannot possibly deliver any significant co2 savings. Removing nuclear and replacing it with wind is even more stupid.

    It’s essential that the demonstrators use violence, as a peaceful protest is all too easily ignored. Hopefully the increased taxes on French fuel and the negative effects on the economy will mean that Macron is ousted at the next election and we won’t have to put up with seeing that smug peacock on our news feeds.

  14. Larry Ledwick says:

    I do have issues with the folks that say Biosphere II was a “disaster” – no it was an experiment and they learned things. They got lots of valuable data for the next time. There is no such thing as a failed experiment if you record the results.

    You need a larger reserve of atmosphere to growing area to manage the daily ebb and flow of CO2.

    You might be able to resolve some of the issues by having a two lobed biosphere on different day night cycles, for example an artificially lighted green house which would suck up CO2 at night and then go dark during the day to exhale CO2 into the whole volume.

    Perhaps a bottled gas plant to maintain the reserve of critical gases necessary to get things in balance and keep them there.

    A compressor station could also help manage the daily pressure change due to heating.
    (again all you need is excess energy)

    Seems to me that all their problems could have been managed with the addition of abundant energy, either more surface area for sun light or added artificial light to drive photosynthesis when you need it to scrub CO2. A small closed environment like a Submarine can be managed by mechanically controlling CO2 and O2 levels. A larger self sustaining one should be easier to accomplish with the proper equipment.

    They also learned that the Noah’s Arc problem is not trivial, they have to do a better job of controlling the hitch hiking biological systems that they bring into the habitat.

    In the case of a large habitat some place like Mars you could help with that by growing everything from seed and having enough power to force the system to equilibrium quickly so the biological systems can stabilize. The difficult thing to solve is how many species are necessary to produce a balanced eco system, that might take decades of careful bit by bit addition to fill all the necessary niches without accidentally introducing a destructive bio system like cockroaches.

  15. Simon Derricutt says:

    Larry – cockroaches are edible. Maybe not something I’d like to eat, but as of a short time ago there’s a restaurant in the UK serving them, and other bugs too. India is currently having a problem because they’ve killed off too many vultures, so dead animals no longer get eaten and cleaned up. I think we can probably live without mosquitoes and midges, though….

    The experimental evidence from the biospheres is pretty important, as I see things. They found it it’s not as easy as they thought.

  16. jim2 says:

    I would like to see a sustained Mars mission. The goal would be to set up a sustainable, human-habitable environment. But for the first 10 years or so, robots would be used. This would make any severe lessons learned less catastrophic.

  17. Another Ian says:

    Simon D

    “With the YSM in full flood about how we need to avoid emitting any CO2 at all in order to avoid a cat ass trophy (similar to a Darwin Award but looks nicer on the shelf) ”

    Some years ago a certain South African veld management scientist retired. Among his “awards” was a dried cow pat, nicely esterpolled and mounted on a wooden base with the caption

    “Sometimes you spoke it and sometimes you wrote it. But mostly you were in it. So take it and go”

    A trophy along those lines maybe?

  18. Simon Derricutt says:

    Another Ian – “I’s allus in the shit, It’s just the depth that do vary” That’s a saying I picked up when I lived in the Forest of Dean (The Varest). Certainly it’s that sort of trophy…. Thanks for the laugh.

  19. Larry Ledwick says:

    It looks like all of the EU is just about to the explosion point, Spain is also getting rowdy.

    Robert Barnes
    ‏@Barnes_Law
    16 minutes ago
    More
    Two old Europe countries — France & Spain — revolting this weekend against the same open borders/open trade/globalist approach that animated populist rebellions in U.K., US, Italy, Hungary & Poland. Hence, media will give it little coverage this week.

    This time over the terms of Brexit and status of Gibraltar.

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1051968/Brexit-news-Spain-gibraltar-theresa-May-deal-Brexit-deal

    And Brussels:
    https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1052573/Brussels-riots-belgium-protests-violence-EU

    And Germany too”
    https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1052999/Paris-France-riots-protest-Germany-Netherlands-EU-crisis

    And Spain:
    https://www.politico.eu/article/yellow-jackets-protests-emmanuel-macron-blind-spot/

    The most interesting thing here is this is the onset of winter and the holiday season, I thought Europe usually rioted in the spring and summer.

  20. Larry Ledwick says:

    Interesting observation here –
    Melissa A.
    ‏@TheRightMelissa
    23 hours ago
    More
    THREAD: Paris is in flames with roits & blood on the streets. The media is trying to cover it up because the implication of what going on in Paris is devastating to the left, globalism & their climate change agenda.

    Citoyenne
    ‏@onpeutriendire
    12 hours ago
    More
    Replying to @TheRightMelissa
    I live there.
    What exactly is going on: antifas groups called “black blocks” went to the protest to incite violence so the government can accuse the #giletsjaunes mouvement of violence.

    More
    Replying to @onpeutriendire @TheRightMelissa
    People are fed up of the taxes and the social services closing (hospitals, trains, posts, etc) but they took the wrong target.

    The EU is responsible. The European laws and directives are choking us.
    We need to get out of it and call for #frexit.

    More
    Our government said “we keep going!” They don’t care, they will apply the EU directives otherwise we will have sanctions to pay if we disobey.

    The EU is a dictatorship. The EU commissioners have all the power but aren’t even elected!

    jim s
    ‏@jpsbman
    10 hours ago
    More
    For the life of me, I still can’t understand why the French did not elect Marine Le Pen. Even I here in the USA saw what would happen if France did nothing to tame the EU. France and Germany have created a monster in the EU. The sooner the UK gets out of the EU the better.

    Citoyenne
    @onpeutriendire
    10 hours ago
    More
    Foreign right wing don’t understand that the Le Pen party is a fake opposition party. It plays with peoples fears but lies.
    Marine does not want to govern. She pretended to want to leave the Euro and EU during the présidential élections but said the contrary afterwards.

    jim s
    @jpsbman
    10 hours ago
    More
    You certainly would know better then I but I do like Marine Le Pen and I LOVE her niece, Marion. I hope you can tame the EU monster. Good luck.

    Citoyenne
    @onpeutriendire
    10 hours ago
    More
    Thanks. She isn’t wrong on a lot of issues but she is was euro-deputy for years and did nothing… unlike Farage who took advantage of his position in the EU parliament to call for a referendum.

  21. beththeserf says:

    Been wondering how long before Soros sent in his Antifa goon squad to make the protest violent and try to demonize the non violent majority.

  22. jim2 says:

    It sucks to realize I look up to the French ;) (No offense to the French-living denizens.)

  23. E.M.Smith says:

    @Simon:

    I love eating cockroaches… AFTER they have been processed through a chicken into eggs….

    Edible does not mean comestible for humans, IMHO ;-)

    @Larry:

    I’d missed the Spain connection… (I was watching Spain closely about a year ago and it never boiled… so moved on.) Brussels I’d noticed. Saw a bit of video where they had some yellow vests too ;-) Sweden I saw simmering a while back, nice to see it going somewhere.

    Interesting set of quotes. One wonders just how much worse it will need to get before either:
    a) The EU leadership listens and reforms to something more “street people” friendly.
    b) The EU disassembles, as Nations just leave / ignore it.
    c) The “French Haircut” enjoys a revival…

    @Beththeserf:

    Yes but…

    Soros is, IMHO, playing a very dangerous game here. The intent is as you pointed out, to let the valid peaceful protest be painted as violent and so subject to Police / Military (central authority force) put down. Yet in a real revolutionary time, it can be the spark that ignites “Regime Change” as people see what power is theirs. (See the W.W.I shooting of the Duke… One nut-bar sets off a continental war because the time was right for the spark…)

    So one must wonder “Who is using whom?”

    @Jim2:

    To paraphrase something about other people:

    ~’The French always do the right thing; after exhausting all other options.’ ;-)

    The simple fact is that the EU is doing stupid things for the wrong reasons. The UN more so. They got away with it as long as the impacts on The Street were low and it was hidden. It is now Very Visible and it’s highly negative outcomes can no longer be ignored. This WILL end, but it will not end well for the EU nor, hopefully, for the UN.

    If Globalism isn’t dead yet, it has an arrow in the bum and a pike over it’s head. Time for the mob of “Deplorables” world wide to start tossing the bastards out and reclaiming control over their governments. I think I need to learn the words to Le Marseillaise:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Marseillaise

    Or maybe not, there seems to be a lot of them ;-)

    BEGIN QUOTE:

    Lyrics
    Only the first verse (and sometimes the fourth and sixth) and the first chorus are sung today in France. There are some slight historical variations in the lyrics of the song; the following is the version listed at the official website of the French presidency.

    Allons enfants de la Patrie,
    Le jour de gloire est arrivé!
    Contre nous de la tyrannie
    L’étendard sanglant est levé, (bis)
    Entendez-vous dans les campagnes
    Mugir ces féroces soldats?
    Ils viennent jusque dans vos bras
    Égorger vos fils, vos compagnes!

    Aux armes, citoyens,
    Formez vos bataillons,
    Marchons, marchons!
    Qu’un sang impur
    Abreuve nos sillons!

    Que veut cette horde d’esclaves,
    De traîtres, de rois conjurés?
    Pour qui ces ignobles entraves,
    Ces fers dès longtemps préparés? (bis)
    Français, pour nous, ah! quel outrage
    Quels transports il doit exciter!
    C’est nous qu’on ose méditer
    De rendre à l’antique esclavage!

    Aux armes, citoyens …

    Quoi! des cohortes étrangères
    Feraient la loi dans nos foyers!
    Quoi! Ces phalanges mercenaires
    Terrasseraient nos fiers guerriers! (bis)
    Grand Dieu! Par des mains enchaînées
    Nos fronts sous le joug se ploieraient
    De vils despotes deviendraient
    Les maîtres de nos destinées!

    Aux armes, citoyens …

    Tremblez, tyrans et vous perfides
    L’opprobre de tous les partis,
    Tremblez! vos projets parricides
    Vont enfin recevoir leurs prix! (bis)
    Tout est soldat pour vous combattre,
    S’ils tombent, nos jeunes héros,
    La terre en produit de nouveaux,
    Contre vous tout prêts à se battre!

    Aux armes, citoyens …

    Français, en guerriers magnanimes,
    Portez ou retenez vos coups!
    Épargnez ces tristes victimes,
    À regret s’armant contre nous. (bis)
    Mais ces despotes sanguinaires,
    Mais ces complices de Bouillé,
    Tous ces tigres qui, sans pitié,
    Déchirent le sein de leur mère!

    Aux armes, citoyens …

    Amour sacré de la Patrie,
    Conduis, soutiens nos bras vengeurs
    Liberté, Liberté chérie,
    Combats avec tes défenseurs! (bis)
    Sous nos drapeaux que la victoire
    Accoure à tes mâles accents,
    Que tes ennemis expirants
    Voient ton triomphe et notre gloire!

    Aux armes, citoyens …

    (Couplet des enfants)[16]
    Nous entrerons dans la carrière
    Quand nos aînés n’y seront plus,
    Nous y trouverons leur poussière
    Et la trace de leurs vertus (bis)
    Bien moins jaloux de leur survivre
    Que de partager leur cercueil,
    Nous aurons le sublime orgueil
    De les venger ou de les suivre

    Aux armes, citoyens …
    Additional verses

    These verses were omitted from the national anthem.

    Dieu de clémence et de justice
    Vois nos tyrans, juge nos coeurs
    Que ta bonté nous soit propice
    Défends-nous de ces oppresseurs (bis)
    Tu règnes au ciel et sur terre
    Et devant Toi, tout doit fléchir
    De ton bras, viens nous soutenir
    Toi, grand Dieu, maître du tonnerre.

    Aux armes, citoyens …

    Peuple français, connais ta gloire;
    Couronné par l’Égalité,
    Quel triomphe, quelle victoire,
    D’avoir conquis la Liberté! (bis)
    Le Dieu qui lance le tonnerre
    Et qui commande aux éléments,
    Pour exterminer les tyrans,
    Se sert de ton bras sur la terre.

    Aux armes, citoyens …

    Nous avons de la tyrannie
    Repoussé les derniers efforts;
    De nos climats, elle est bannie;
    Chez les Français les rois sont morts. (bis)
    Vive à jamais la République!
    Anathème à la royauté!
    Que ce refrain, partout porté,
    Brave des rois la politique.

    Aux armes, citoyens …

    La France que l’Europe admire
    A reconquis la Liberté
    Et chaque citoyen respire
    Sous les lois de l’Égalité; (bis)
    Un jour son image chérie
    S’étendra sur tout l’univers.
    Peuples, vous briserez vos fers
    Et vous aurez une Patrie!

    Aux armes, citoyens …

    Foulant aux pieds les droits de l’Homme,
    Les soldatesques légions
    Des premiers habitants de Rome
    Asservirent les nations. (bis)
    Un projet plus grand et plus sage
    Nous engage dans les combats
    Et le Français n’arme son bras
    Que pour détruire l’esclavage.

    Aux armes, citoyens …

    Oui! Déjà d’insolents despotes
    Et la bande des émigrés
    Faisant la guerre aux Sans-culottes
    Par nos armes sont altérés; (bis)
    Vainement leur espoir se fonde
    Sur le fanatisme irrité,
    Le signe de la Liberté
    Fera bientôt le tour du monde.

    Aux armes, citoyens …

    À vous ! Que la gloire environne,
    Citoyens, illustres guerriers,
    Craignez, dans les champs de Bellone,
    Craignez de flétrir vos lauriers! (bis)
    Aux noirs soupçons inaccessibles
    Envers vos chefs, vos généraux,
    Ne quittez jamais vos drapeaux,
    Et vous resterez invincibles.

    Aux armes, citoyens …

    (Couplet des enfants)
    Enfants, que l’Honneur, la Patrie
    Fassent l’objet de tous nos vœux!
    Ayons toujours l’âme nourrie
    Des feux qu’ils inspirent tous deux. (bis)
    Soyons unis! Tout est possible;
    Nos vils ennemis tomberont,
    Alors les Français cesseront
    De chanter ce refrain terrible:

    Aux armes, citoyens …

    In English:

    Arise, children of the Fatherland,
    The day of glory has arrived!
    Against us, tyranny’s
    Bloody standard is raised, (repeat)
    Do you hear, in the countryside,
    The roar of those ferocious soldiers?
    They’re coming right into your arms
    To cut the throats of your sons, your women!

    To arms, citizens,
    Form your battalions,
    Let’s march, let’s march!
    Let an impure blood
    Water our furrows!

    What does this horde of slaves,
    Of traitors and conspiring kings want?
    For whom have these vile chains,
    These irons, been long prepared? (repeat)
    Frenchmen, for us, ah! What outrage
    What furious action it must arouse!
    It is to us they dare plan
    A return to the old slavery!

    To arms, citizens …

    What! Foreign cohorts
    Would make the law in our homes!
    What! These mercenary phalanxes
    Would strike down our proud warriors! (repeat)
    Great God! By chained hands
    Our brows would yield under the yoke!
    Vile despots would themselves become
    The masters of our destinies!

    To arms, citizens …

    Tremble, tyrants and you traitors
    The shame of all parties,
    Tremble! Your parricidal schemes
    Will finally receive their prize! (repeat)
    Everyone is a soldier to combat you,
    If they fall, our young heroes,
    Will be produced anew from the ground,
    Ready to fight against you!

    To arms, citizens …

    Frenchmen, as magnanimous warriors,
    Bear or hold back your blows!
    Spare those sorry victims,
    For regretfully arming against us. (repeat)
    But these bloodthirsty despots,
    These accomplices of Bouillé,
    All these tigers who mercilessly
    Tear apart their mother’s breast!

    To arms, citizens …

    Sacred love of the Fatherland,
    Lead, support our avenging arms
    Liberty, cherished Liberty,
    Fight with thy defenders! (repeat)
    Under our flags may victory
    Hurry to thy manly accents,
    So that thy expiring enemies
    See thy triumph and our glory!

    To arms, citizens …

    (Children’s Verse)
    We shall enter the (military) career
    When our elders are no longer there,
    There we shall find their dust
    And the trace of their virtues (repeat)
    Much less keen to survive them
    Than to share their coffins,
    We shall have the sublime pride
    To avenge or follow them.

    To arms, citizens …

    Additional verses
    These verses were omitted from the national anthem.
    God of mercy and justice
    See our tyrants, judge our hearts
    Thy goodness be with us
    Defend us from these oppressors (repeat)
    You reign in heaven and on earth
    And before You all must bend
    In your arms, come support us
    You Great God, Lord of the thunder.

    To arms, citizens …

    French people know thy glory
    Crowned by Equality,
    What a triumph, what a victory,
    To have won Freedom! (repeat)
    The God who throws thunder
    And who commands the elements,
    To exterminate the tyrants
    Uses your arm on the ground.

    To arms, citizens …

    Of tyranny, we have
    Rebuffed the final efforts;
    It is banished from our climes;
    In France the kings are dead. (repeat)
    Forever live the Republic!
    Anathema to royalty!
    May this refrain sung everywhere,
    Defy the politics of kings.

    To arms, citizens …

    France that Europe admires
    Has regained Liberty
    And every citizen breathes
    Under the laws of Equality, (repeat)
    One day its beloved image
    Will extend throughout the universe.
    Peoples, you will break your chains
    And you will have a Fatherland!

    To arms, citizens …

    Trampling on the rights of man,
    soldierly legions
    The first inhabitants of Rome
    enslave nations. (repeat)
    A larger project and wiser
    We engage in battle
    And the Frenchman only arms himself
    In order to destroy slavery.

    To arms, citizens …

    Yes! Already insolent despots
    And the band of emigrants
    Waging war on the sans-culottes [lit. without-breeches]
    By our weapons are withered; (repeat)
    Vainly their hope is based
    On piqued fanaticism
    The sign of Liberty
    Will soon spread around the world.

    To arms, citizens …

    To you! Let glory surround
    Citizens, illustrious warriors,
    Fear in the fields of Bellona,
    Fear the sullying of your laurels! (repeat)
    As for dark unfounded suspicions
    Towards your leaders, your generals,
    Never leave your flags,
    And you will remain invincible.

    To arms, citizens …

    (Children’s Verse)
    Children, let Honour and Fatherland
    be the object of all our wishes!
    Let us always have souls nourished
    With fires that might inspire both. (repeat)
    Let us be united! Anything is possible;
    Our vile enemies will fall,
    Then the French will cease
    To sing this fierce refrain:

    To arms, citizens …

  24. Jon K says:

    EM,
    This clip shows the police siding with the protesters, who then all start singing Le Marseillaise.

  25. Larry Ledwick says:

    Paris – a commentary on the video everything generation.

  26. Larry Ledwick says:

    Personally I think the idea of banishment or prison islands have a lot of merits when dealing with massive immigration. Once the word gets out, people would not be so eager to leach off of other countries.

    http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=59472

  27. E.M.Smith says:

    Infowars just ran a clip of Macron taking a raw egg to the forehead….

    His protection detail reacted a lot after the fact… but that could easily have been a legal chemical egg instead of a fowl one…

    Maybe he will get the message now, having been literally “Slapped up side the head” with an egg.

    I get the feeling Europe has reached the boiling point.

  28. beththeserf says:

    Tremblez, tyrans et vous perfides,
    Tremblez! vos projets parricides…
    Aux armes citoyens …

  29. Larry Ledwick says:

    So what odds are people giving that Macron gets a new Frence Revolution with in a year?

    https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-12-03/80-year-old-woman-killed-paris-home-police-gas-canister-yellow-vests-reject-macrons

  30. jim2 says:

    @Larry Ledwick says: 3 December 2018 at 9:29 pm

    The Sweden burning refugee centers appears to be fake news. Can’t find any corroborating links other than the unheard-of.

  31. E.M.Smith says:

    @Jim2:

    Snopes is putting PC spin on it by saying fires happened by that the Swedes are not really pissed.

    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/sweden-refugee-center-arson/

    The also cite an RT story.

    When the center housing 14 asylum seekers in a forest clearing went up in flames, the occupants had to escape through a window and shelter in a nearby building. Now they patrol the area in nearly sub-zero temperatures each night, using only the dim lights of mobile phones to peer into the forest for any intruder bent on destroying their temporary home.

    The Munkedal blaze was just one of more than a dozen at centers across Sweden in the past month — some confirmed as arson attacks and others suspected as such — that the police are struggling to solve as the country expects to take in up to a record 190,000 asylum seekers this year.

    While no one has died in the fires, a sword-wielding masked man killed two people and wounded two others last month in a racist killing spree at a largely immigrant school in Trollhattan, a short drive from Munkedal.

    However, that news agency simply confirmed that incidents of arson or suspected arson occurred, not that Sweden was gripped by “civil war.” Noting that Sweden anticipated up to 190,000 asylum seekers, Reuters added that Swedes by and large were accepting of refugees (not broadly “mad as hell”):

    So there’s something going on, and it likely has some hype in the story. But burning is happening.

  32. Larry Ledwick says:

    Snopes gives it mixed evaluation, the fact that arsons are happening is true, but some of the coverage is miss-attributing photos dates etc. Many related stories have showed up in more mainstream media in the recent past, but that all went black a year or so ago, now except for a few sources on twitter, you hear absolutely nothing of almost daily bombings and assaults in those Northern European countries but if you follow the links you find local news coverage in the local language so clearly there is a lot going on that is not getting through the PC wall.

    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/sweden-refugee-center-arson/

    That said there was quite a bit of coverage some time ago on more main line news sources but in that part of the world, you can lose your job and get black listed for reporting such events, so the only items I am seeing are on twitter – it is really hard to say how much is true and how much is completely fake but here is some of the older reports. As I have said in the past, some of these items are “this is out here make your own evaluation of what it means”

    My personal opinion is that there is too much leakage to say it is totally without foundation, even disinformation must be based on truth to work. It is clear that through out Europe there is an undercurrent of discontent that is building but draconian enforcement of PC news reporting has effectively shut down news from “reputable news sources” so the only thing left is to sift through the bits that leak out and look for patterns.

    One of the few twitter sources I trust is Peter Sweden, he often links back to local language media reports. Note that none of this is showing up in major media coverage in America.

    =======================
    PeterSweden
    ‏Verified account
    @PeterSweden7
    Dec 2
    Sweden today.

    – Drive by shooting in Stockholm.
    – Man shot at pizza restaurant in Malmö.

    This never used to happen before at this rate.
    =======================
    PeterSweden
    ‏Verified account
    @PeterSweden7
    4 hours ago
    More
    It’s happening.
    1000 people turned out to protest against mass migration outside the Swedish parliament.
    And imagine my surprise – Swedish mainstream media ignored this massive event.
    =================

    PeterSweden
    ‏Verified account
    @PeterSweden7
    Nov 24
    More
    INSANE number of shootings in Sweden this year.

    – 272 shootings.
    – 129 injured.
    – 42 dead.

    “It’s a VERY high number, and the fatality rate is exceptional” says Swedish police Chief Gunnar Appelgren.

    What happened to the former peaceful Sweden I love?😭
    ====================
    PeterSweden
    ‏Verified account
    @PeterSweden7
    Nov 26
    These are catastrophic numbers.
    6.4% of Swedish women last year say that men have committed sex crimes against them, up from only 1.5% in 2006.

    You can see the increase in the graph here, the line highlighted in yellow is for sex crimes in Sweden.

    =================
    For example:
    PeterSweden
    ‏Verified account
    @PeterSweden7
    Nov 21
    More
    There has been 6 BOMBINGS in Sweden this last month.
    – Explosion at Family apartment in Helsingborg
    – Explosion at a gym in Malmö
    – Jihad’s driving school bomed in Malmö
    – Explosion at shops in Malmö
    – Explosion at apartment in Stockholm
    – Restaurant in Malmö bombed
    War zone😡

    [note much of these bombings in Malmo are gang related street wars between immigrant gangs]
    ====================

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2017/05/17/refugees-sweden-evacuated-arson/101782836/

    https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2015/10/three_refugee_centers_in_sweden_burned_bringing_total_to_14_suspected_arson_attacks_this_year.html

    https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2015/10/sweden-doubling-number-refugees-centres-burn-151022103630171.html

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/sweden-mosque-fire-arson-stockholm-police-jakobsberg-imam-ali-islamic-centre-a7711431.html

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/injured-fire-sweden-largest-asylum-centre-norra-lvsborg-a7602676.html

    Bottom line – I really don’t know how representative some of these reports are but there are too many of them to be totally ignored. If only to know that northern Europe is no longer the peaceful safe place it used to be and the PC blanket if Europe is pervasive and the major media is only reporting what they cannot hide (like the French riots).

  33. E.M.Smith says:

    @Larry:

    Down in that zerohedge article you cited:

    Similiar protests have broken out around Europe, as Yellow Vest demonstrations have spread to Belgium, Italy and the Netherlands.

    Certainly not fading out… So 4 countries and counting… Then Spain was cited in another article as grumbling, so maybe it’s 5 now…

  34. Larry Ledwick says:

    I think the most important fact to me (if someone from Europe can confirm), this is not the time of year that protests usually happen, which I think is significant.

    You expect people to get rowdy on a hot August night but just before Christmas???

    That tells me that there is probably a deep undercurrent of discontent that finally has crossed a threshold of restraint.

    (unless there is some traditional street riot season in the fall early winter in Europe I don’t know about)

  35. H.R. says:

    Lesson in the making?

    Don’t awaken the Vikings. Don’t awaken the Saxons. Don’t awaken the Gauls. Don’t awaken the Goths. Don’t awaken the Celts.

    There’ll be hell to pay if they are all awakened.

    This unfettered invasion immigration thingy may not work out as planned by the GEBs. It’s dicey at this point.

    /moderately informed opinion, based on what news seeps out despite the YSM’s best efforts to suppress real information

  36. E.M.Smith says:

    @H.R.:

    That’s the problem with a top down driven fraud that depends on folks not noticing. When they start to notice it can rapidly spread and then the whole dynamic can invert in days / weeks.

    Folks all across Europe are now very much noticing, and even in the USA about 1/2 the people have decided they don’t like where the Globalists were taking us, even if they didn’t wake up to the whole story / background. Then there’s Brazil that’s also elected a “Right Wing Nationalist” leader.

    It’s looking to me a lot like the Globalists are not having a good Christmas ;-)

    Still leaves the question of how to humanely send all the invading forces back to their home nations.

  37. H.R. says:

    E.M.: “It’s looking to me a lot like the Globalists are not having a good Christmas ;-) “

    YAY!
    As Martha Stewart would say, “That’s a g-o-o-o-d thing.”

    Still leaves the question of how to humanely send all the invading forces back to their home nations.”

    Yeah, mixed feelings on that. Some of them are willing invaders intent on conquering the target country and should be sent back to their homeland in a pine box. Some of them were snookered into their current situation by the GEBs. I can muster up some bit of sympathy for those that were misled.

  38. Larry Ledwick says:

    I have seen some items that some countries (can’t remember off the top of my head) are buying them out.

    “You unhappy here ? Here’s a one way plane ticket home and some money for your trouble – Bye!”

  39. sabretoothed says:

    Apparently 120,000 will Storm the Basille this Saturday from reports!!

  40. Another Ian says:

    “What appears to be happening to Macron is “a preference cascade”. Something everyone knows but keeps to himself that suddenly emerges when people suddenly realize that everyone is thinking the same thing.

    Outwardly the conventional wisdom: high taxes, crippling Green regulations, open borders were unassailable, seemingly universally held. But under the surface the peons were seething while the riche were oblivious because they could afford to be.

    Macron, the media — nobody saw it coming. Nobody really predicts anything. Pearl Harbor, Hitler’s invasion of Russia, the fall of the USSR, 9/11, 2008, Brexit or Hillary’s loss. The really important info is not what you know but what you’ve ignored.”

    http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/index.php/2018/12/03/showing-up-to-riot-4/

  41. Another Ian says:

    Time we reinstated something like this IMO

    “Oath of allegience to kings of Castille (Spain)

    We who are as good as you, swear to you, who are no better than we, to accept you as our king and sovereign lord, provided you observe all our liberties and laws, but if not, not.”

    J.H Elliot, “Imperial Spain”

  42. beththeserf says:

    Another Ian, ‘Yes.’

    Oh Socrates!
    Oh Magna Carta,
    … The king bein’
    subject ter the law
    like everyone else.

  43. Larry Ledwick says:

    Your Preference cascade is world wide, the powers that be, are trying to pretend each instance is isolated and local circumstance, but there is cross fertilization and encouragement given as each country takes control of their own destiny. Others say “Hell yeah why not – Me too!”

    Then you end up with things like this cropping up that has been viewed in total at least 1.5 million times.
    It is that old “No stopping an idea when its time has come” problem the GEB never quite grasp.

    Make the World Great Again

  44. Larry Ledwick says:

    And the mirror –

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/breaking-french-protests-fuel-tax-13683746

    This is only a temporary reprieve for Macron and his cohorts the genie is out of the bottle, they won’t be able to put it back, this wave of “Not here – Not Now” is just beginning and will roll over any politician who attempts to stop it. The more people see successes like Poland being an island of sanity in a sea of globalist chaos the more these small victories will reverberate through the public consciousness and people who were last week willing to just grin and bear it are each in their own time due to their one private one insult too many join the ranks of people willing to take their traditional culture and country back from the one size fits all globalists.

    The beauty of Nationalism is it allows for the variability of individuals a citizen can choose the culture and structure they fit best in and that minimizes internal friction and allows property and growth that is not possible in a grey everyone is the same monotone state.

  45. beththeserf says:

    Que j’espere, citoyen!

  46. Larry Ledwick says:

    Apparently the the fall back on taxes is only temporary !

    euronews
    ‏Verified account
    @euronews
    13mMore
    BREAKING: French Prime Minister Édouard Philippe confirms the moratorium on fuel tax increases will last six months.

  47. Larry Ledwick says:

    Geeeeeze either I am having lots of mini- strokes, or my dyslexia is causing me to click on the wrong option in spell check or their is an evil gremlin editing my comments:

    The more people see successes like Poland being an island of sanity in a sea of globalist chaos the more these small victories will reverberate through the public consciousness and people who were last week willing to just grin and bear it are each in their own time due to their own private one insult too many join the ranks of people willing to take their traditional culture and country back from the one size fits all globalists.

    The beauty of Nationalism is it allows for the variability of individuals a citizen can choose the culture and structure they fit best in and that minimizes internal friction and allows prosperity and growth that is not possible in a grey everyone is the same monotone state.

  48. philjourdan says:

    I was very surprised to realize I understood about 80% of La Marseillaise! But then we had to sing that every day in school (we were taking conversational French in grades 1-4).

  49. rhoda klapp says:

    In the spirit of the Marseillaise, here’s the Ca Ira, with the benefit of the inimitable Edith Piaf:

    Bet you like this one, E.M.

  50. rhoda klapp says:

    “Macron, the media — nobody saw it coming. Nobody really predicts anything. Pearl Harbor, Hitler’s invasion of Russia, the fall of the USSR, 9/11, 2008, Brexit or Hillary’s loss. The really important info is not what you know but what you’ve ignored.””

    You never see the one that gets you. An old fighter pilot’s proverb that is applicable to all of life. It isn’t the thing you anticipate that makes the trouble, it’s the thing you didn’t see coming.

    When I worked for Big Blue, we used to have something called, IIRC, a software install review. When a client was sold a product there was a meeting of the account people in IBM to decide if they were ready, had all the pre-res, had the right hardware and so on. I used to sit in and when called to contribute my practice was to say: ‘I don’t anticipate any problems’. It’s surprising that nobody caught on to the true meaning, they all seemed happy with that..

  51. E.M.Smith says:

    @Another Ian:

    “Preference Cascade” eh? Useful concept to internalize… and I like that Spanish Oath ;-)

    @A.C.Osborn:

    “Suspend” the taxes? Why not “END”? Suspend implies a return possible later…

    @Sabertoothed:

    Perhaps talk of the Bastille has gotten to Macron and he has been reminded of the “French Haircut”…

    @Beththeserf:

    Now if only our “temporary kings” could be prevented from fleecing us as they pass through the office…

    @Larry:

    Yup. “Brittle Failure”. Folks just “put up with shit” until it is too much, then they break under it and go to the “To Hell With It” mode. “I may not win, but I can make sure they lose” becomes the best choice.

    Folks in comfortable leadership positions do not have that level of discomfort, so they can’t see it coming. The Donald talked to the folks on his construction sites, so he Had Clue about it.

    “One size fits all” doesn’t as we are all different.

    So he’s either guaranteed that in 6 months this all happens again; or that the Yellow Vests will see this as the doge it is and keep the pressure on to make it permanent. IMHO, were I running OR following in the Yellow Vests protests: I’ll tell him to shove his 6 month “moratorium” where the sun don’t shine and keep on keeping on unto ultimate victory. Once winning it’s a bad time to stop.

    @Philjourdan:

    Yeah, I had that “wait, I can follow this!” moment too. Written, I can follow. Sung, it’s a bit hard to do for me (partly due to the ears not picking up the subtle bits anymore).

    It is a remarkably aggressive song – I now “get it” about the bar scene in Casablanca ;-) “Citizens to arms” indeed…

    @Rhoda:

    Oh Boy! (Need to put my stereo headset on ;-) it does much better sound that this monitor…)

  52. E.M.Smith says:

    @Rhoda:

    Yeah; I used to say that a lot too. I had an internal grimace knowing there was stuff that was not anticipated that we’d need to deal with. OTOH, I’d also done so much “rapid prototyping” that I knew that whatever it was I’d just fix it and report back later “This FOO came up and we did BAR to fix it. Install was a success.” and nobody would care that BAR was not in The Plan or on the PERT chart…

  53. Another Ian says:

    “Won’t settle for crumbs.’They want the whole baguette’, is the best line I’ve seen for a while.”

    http://joannenova.com.au/2018/12/paul-krugman-sticks-pins-into-the-climate-denier-voodoo-doll/#comment-2078252

  54. philjourdan says:

    @AC Osborne – As Yogi says “It aint over till its over”. The “suspension” will not soothe the savage vest. “Suspension” as well as “temporary” mean nothing to politicians, and people know it. The Protesters will not be sated until it is repealed. No equivocation allowed.

  55. Bill In Oz says:

    I looked at the video. The only flags flying is the French ‘Ticolor’. No All blue EU flag to be seen… What does it tell us ? These people are french NOT Europeans.. So it is not just Macroon whois smelling of ‘merde’, the EU is too.

  56. R. de Haan says:

    Unintended Consequences

    The “Yellow Vest” is an EU mandatory item to be carried in the trunk of your car together with a First Aid Kit and a “Warning Triangle”. Because it is mass produced it only costs € 1.25 and it is used by people who want to increase their visibility like motor cyclists, cyclists, skate boarders and joggers who take their track along the side of the road and don’t want to be hit by a car.

    As it looks now, it very well could be the worst mandate the EU has put into law ever as it has now become the symbol of uncontrollable opposition. The nightmare of any government and subject of unintended consequences.

    Macron, elected on an agenda of reforms, a very delicate subject in France, restored the former “Grandeur” of the Empirical France as the world could see during the WW1 Centennial where Macron in the presence of Trump and Putin positioned himself as a true world leader of a strong and determined nation. He warned the world that Nationalism, not patriotism was the big threat and called for a European Army by 2025, a call that received the immediate support of Merkel and the baddest idea of 2018.

    Trump responded with the words that “they should pay their NATO contributions first” but Putin was not amused and with good reason. Both France and Germany invaded Russia in the past and to see them joined together in a European Army simply hosts a new potential threat.

    Well, Putin can be reassured for now because the carefully positioned image of Macron as a strong (EU) leader, “Napoleon Deux” was destroyed completely and his Presidency is done.

    Totally frustrated with Government policies, shrinking buying power, cuts in pensions and price hikes people went to the street after the Macron Government introduced a 25% price hike on Diesel fuel. Diesel is what drives and powers the rural area’s in France. You can live in the city without a car but when live in “A La Campagne”, rural France, you can’t do without a car and most of them are diesel cars. Like everywhere in Europe Governments have reduced the compensation for car costs for workers who have to travel to get to their job. In the past the distance travelled from home to the work place could be compensated with your tax bill. today this compensation does no longer compensate the real costs

    It was the last drop in the barrel and Paris burned and nothing was spared. The iron cast gates of the Presidential Palace Champ d’Elysee were taken down, the Arc De Triomphe Monument was paint sprayed and fire bombed, cars set on fire and entire streets ravaged as protesters and the riot police clashed for hours.
    Ignoring the protestors in their yellow vests for weeks, the morning after the riots the Macron Government announced it would open talks with the protestors.
    Bur while this statement was made, 120.000 yellow vests were storming La Bastille for the second time in history.
    If they would have shouted “Guillotine” I am sure Macron would have left the country.

    The street rules in France but the demand of the angry crowds are not unreasonable.
    Over the past years they have been fleeced and made pay for the failing banks, lavish Government Spending, the “spread the wealth” madness, the immigration policies and the loss of jobs that are a direct result of liberal market policies and international treaties that allow for subsidized export of jobs, policies nobody asked for.

    Now the Students and farmers join the protests, Macron is left with a failed presidency as his reform agenda has come to a halt.

    The shock wave of the yellow vest resonates all over Europe and together with Brexit this could be the biggest threat to the EU establishment now. The other massage confines to the execution of the zealous climate policies. We’re talking about the same forces that lifted Trump into power

    The crowds of deplorables simply won’t take it anymore.

  57. E.M.Smith says:

    @Another Ian & PhilJourdan:

    The Political Class just does not understand how much it offends the average Joe when they blow that kind of smoke. “Temporary” just means “Please shut up and go away so I can do this later when you are not watching.” but where the “Please” isn’t really meant…

    Were I in France, I’d be mad as hell at “temporary”.

    @Bill in Oz:

    Yeah, I noticed that too. Frexit is a real possible if the EUrocrats continue pushing their crap.

    @R. de Haan:

    Very Well Put.

    Also do not forget that the USA got sucked into a couple of European Wars. They were called World Wars, but other than Japan / Pacific it was mostly European. (One could argue that Russia is an Asian country so it was Europe + Asia, but Russia has most of their people on the edge of Europe and is largely a European country in nature, plus fighting against Germany was all on the European front). Yeah, the British Empire pulled in troops from around the globe, but there were huge places where no significant fighting happened. (South America, sub Sahara Africa, most of Australian territory, …)

    At this point, were an EU Army picking a fight with Russia, I’m not sure the USA ought to be on either side. Just not our turf, not our problem. I don’t see any reason for the USA to support a strong Russia expanding into Europe OR to support a European Holy Roman Empire Redux / International Socialist Empire spreading into Russia. Where’s the side supporting Libertarian policies and Individual Freedom & Liberty?

    So the notion of a European Army does not make me feel all warm and fuzzy either. Just another German Army with recruited Satrap State contributions. NATO at least has the advantage that it is individual Nations who have ultimate control over their own troops and contributions.

    It isn’t just Russia made uneasy by the idea…

    So France is “on the boil” with a lot of countries around it that had been beaten down by the German / French center of the EU watching. This could easily spread into a general revolt of the Mediterranean arc. Spain, Italy, & Greece are not thrilled at the moment…

  58. Larry Ledwick says:

    Related to this is of course the immigration debate – here are the latest countries to say not only no but hell no to the immigration pact.

    https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2018/12/lithuania-and-latvia-are-latest-countries-to-reject-un-global-compact-for-migration/

  59. E.M.Smith says:

    Per Reuters on Roku Macron has folded and said a complete cancellation of the fuel taxes is ordered.

    Yet their story said that more protests are expected this weekend as The People have moved on to a larger agenda of things they want changed. (Then it admired the problem of the Yellow Vests being a mix of right / left / and other groups with divergent agenda…)

  60. p.g.sharrow says:

    Once a revolution has begun it is the best organized and loudest that will win, not those that have the best interests of everyone in mind. The people are mad at their “Betters” and have tasted blood. The fuel tax is just the top thing on everyone’s list….pg

  61. R. de Haan says:

    I think it is essential that we understand how those who oppose the Global Warming Myth are treated on the Google and Apple platforms, youtube, twitter and Face Book.
    I really think Ice Age Farmer has a good radar and provides us with top grade analysis and information. That’s why I post three of his video’s here:

    In the mean time the French Opposition has smelled blood as decided to organize to kick Macron out of office.

    @ E.M
    Thanks for your nice response to my “Uninteded Consequences” posting above.

    I think US involvement in European Wars was inevitable and at least in regard to the Second World War planned in 1939 or even before that year.
    Among those entities behind the rise of Hitler it is important to know that many of that support came from the USA. Standard Oil, Ford, General Motors (huge contributor to the Nazi War Effort building trucks for troop transports and supplies, and American Banks up to their necks in war funding.

    When Hitler started to murder Jews and took his U-Boot Campaign to the American East Coast even attacking US Ships off the coast of South America, a US participation in the Air and Land War was a logic step, especially if we look at the relationship between Churchill and Roosevelt.

    Besides that the USA a has planned for a United Europe even a United World Governance for a long time, a concept pushed by many US Presidents after WWII, from Carter to Bush, from the Clinton’s to Obama.

    All freaking Globalists and therefore interventionists.

    The most consequent party however, the USA Deep State, read CIA where the word “State Meddling” has become a red threat all through it’s existance.

    Further back in time during the Independence War from England, we had the Dutch and the French supplying the Patriot’s with arms and supplies and when the war was done, the Dutch were the first Nation to recognize the newly formed Nation of the United States of America.
    I know, they did it for the war profits and to break the power of the Empire but the fact that remains is that that I am very glad the US did join the war against Hitler and me and my family are extremely grateful for the fact that the Allied Forces from America, Canada, New Zealand, England, Poland and Morocco liberated our country from the German occupiers.

    What I don’t understand today is what we do in countries like Lebanon, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Ukraine, Somalia, Mali, Yemen, Syria etc, other than serving the Military Industrial Complex.
    All places where wars can’t be fought without huge losses and incredible costs for logistics and equipment and big risks for escalation with nuclear armed parties.
    Only sociopaths and war profiteers and Globalists can think of this.

  62. R. de Haan says:

    The biggest threat we face is the UN Globalist Agenda and those who push and support it as their primary goal is to reach their aim of power by destroying our societies and economic and financial system. It is plain treason in my book and the time has come to treat them accordingly.
    The French showed us how. If Trump recognizes the protestors and copies the use of the Yellow Vests, a Global Opposition against the Globalists is created and they will be done with in a matter of weeks. Don’t underestimate the braveness of the French. They fight in the streets against well trained riot police and they don’t care about casualties or arrests. Not many people are willing or able to risk a bloody nose at a protest meeting. So in this regard the strength and success of opposition like this is in the numbers and mentality of the crowd. Even terrorists and organized crime fear public revolt as their odds become unpredictable. Governments tremble and that is a the best news from France. What should be watched now is Belgium where the Government almost collapsed after the biggest party refused the UN Casablanca Pact that provides wide protection for illegal immigrants (and refugees). The introduction of the Casablanca Pact was a fast streak and thy didn’t ask the opinion of the man in the street and I know a majority is simply against the pact.
    I regard this Pact as another UN tool to undermine the Nation States with uncontrolled Immigration.

  63. R. de Haan says:

    If Conservatives no longer can express their opinion on Social Media and alternative platforms are cut off from Google and Apple Services (download of Apps) we need a tough intervention of the US Government or an alternative platform. We can’t have public discussions about politics and science blocked by Globalists. Trump has to move fast and hard.

  64. beththeserf says:

    Encore une fois, globalists.

  65. E.M.Smith says:

    @R. de Haan:

    Despite my complaints about the USA getting sucked into other peoples wars, I’m also of the opinion that it was A Good Thing the USA got pulled into W.W.II – for the simple reason that I’d not exist were that not so ;-) (Mum was a war bride from the UK… )

    I just hope the UK can once again break free of the Continent before it’s too late. 1/2 my relatives are there (or scattered in other parts of the British Empire…)

    Also note that I equally rail against the USA indulging in Regime Change and generally screwing up countries around the world. We ought to stay home. It’s my opinion that the Globalists saw the USA as a convenient tool to break up and tear down the stable Nationalist States of the Middle East. Look at their plan goals: Destroy Nation States. Drive 3rd world / 2nd world “diversity” into the rest of the 1st world. Reduce power centers other than theirs. What has been the result of the various “Adventures” of the USA across N. Africa to Afghanistan? The destabilization of strong Nation States and driving their populations into “refugee status” and into Europe / USA. Reducing them as centers of power.

    I think that is not an accident…

    I fully agree that the UN has become the center of evil in all this. They could not reach their goals by persuasion, and have resorted to destructive acts. They need to reap the consequences on their own heads. Toss in the Trilateral Commission, Bilderburgers, Council On Foreign Relations, etc. etc. too.

    Hmmm…. I have a redish emergency worker vest (with hard hat ;-) in my work package… Maybe I need to dig that out… ;-)

    Folks forget that the French are 1/2 Germans (Franks) and 1/2 Celts (Gauls). The Germans are fierce fighters (note that France drove the Muslims out in the making of their country and France is named for the throwing axe of the Franks) while the Celts are known for not passing up a good chance for a fight… (One wag said that the South lost the war between the States because the North had more Celts than did the South. Both were rich in Celts, and in some cases the same families were on both sides…) Sometimes the French are not the brightest about their choice of equipment or preparation; but they will go to war with rocks and bottles if that’s what they have…

    @Beththeserf:

    C’est la vérité!

  66. Another Ian says:

    Seen a long time ago – one difference between Anglo Saxon and Celt

    When sprung by authority in the response

    Anglo Saxon – “Yes sir, no sir, 3 bags full sir”

    Celt – “Of course I can – I just did it”

  67. R. de Haan says:

    @E.M,
    Yep, Not many people know that Bilderberg and WWF were initiated by the late Prins Bernard of the Netherlands. Today both institutions are the source of massive screw ups like the sale of eco certificates in Indonesia allowing Palm Oil Farms to replace tropical rain forest’s where the Orangutan live. In the mean time they undermine the our entire human civilization making the totally insane claim that we need multiple planet planet Earth’s to continue our consumer society model.
    They are also the “main author’s” for many of the IPPC reports and many of the alarmist press releases blaming human kind for the destruction of our planet. The reality is that they are a MAFIA like extortionist organization cloaked as a Green Non Profit and managed like a multi national enterprise. The same goes for Greenpeace.
    They not only undermine our societies but also ravage our biosphere and they are also responsible for the renewable energy propaganda. WWF and Greenpeace have huge political powers and they have a seat at all the political policy and negotiation platforms. WWF is very successful collecting huge sums of money from uninformed consumers and today they even produce educational material to brainwash young kids at our schools.

    Thanks to Alex Jones, a.o we know what happens inside the Bilderberg Meetings, the World Economic Forum (Clinton’s) and the Soros Foundation Platforms, all providing highly influential input for the G20 Agenda’s mostly in support of the UN programs and institutions. UN Agenda 21 (local programs) and UN Agenda 30 (National programs). It is remarkable to see that in the USA, despite Trump’s retreat from the Paris Climate Accord Agenda 21 is executed in many US States. So a lot of work still has to be done. I really think Agenda 21/30 deserve more attention from the Global Warming blogs. While we focus on scientific aspects of the Global Warming Doctrine the UN Agenda’s have completely altered building and permit regulations and procedures and completely dominate the regulations of land and water use. Entire swats of oceans have become non navigational for any shipping including sailing boats (huge risk for massive fines or impounding of your boat) and if their efforts to turn our countries into idiocracies, people have no where to go but the cities. Other fields of operation include our food security (their weapon of choice to reduce our populations), our energy infra structure and the use of chemical products either to conserve foods or to fight plant diseases, fungus infections and parasites. Who wonders why New York’s finest hotels are now famous for bed bug infestations should know that the chemical products used to fight these blood suckers have been banned. The hysteria triggered in the field of exhaust and stack emissions from cars, aircraft and coal plants also has been pushed by WWF.
    Last week I watched an aerial of all the VW diesel cars stored in Boston. These cars produce the highest milage per gallon of diesel of any car available in the market but the engine management software developed in Germany together with the German and EU authorities was branded as a criminal act because it had a special mode for inspections.
    All cars including US and Japan/Korea/France build diesel cars use this kind of engine management systems. The different modes allow you to choose if you want to drive in eco mode or adapt to a more sportive driving style by the flick of a button.
    In Europe where a MOT test has been performed every 2 years the sensors used by the MOT test are not sensitive enough to measure the current exhaust emissions. In Germany private car owners have sued the MOT authorities for billing them inspection costs like measuring exhaust emissions that in reality are not performed.
    That doesn’t stop authorities to ban any diesel car from entering city centers like Paris, Madrid, Amsterdam and London. Cray world, crazy people.

    In the mean time Paris is preparing for the next battle with the Yellow Vests.
    One of the pictures shows riot police and protestors divided by a Consertina Razor Wire road block.
    One of the video’s I watched showed how the protestors removed the entire road block in a minute with the use of a simple piece of rope. The riot police took a run for it and the protestors controlled the street. The Ceritina was than used to block a water canon truck.
    Saturday the battle continues.
    The big worry of course is escalation to the level where fire arms are used.

    https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-12-06/france-deploys-12000-riot-cops-closes-eiffel-tower-coup-attempt-feared-yellow-vests

  68. jim2 says:

    The stable nation states of the Middle East were set up and supported by the CIA. Many who figured it out in the Middle East didn’t like it, but those countries were stable. Nevertheless, I think we should have kept the status quo there. It worked better for all the rest of the world.

  69. R. de Haan says:

    France on route to create an even bigger mess.
    https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-12-07/france-readies-fleet-armored-vehicles-ahead-act-iv-yellow-vest-riots

    Looks like Macron is going to dig in and fight it out by escalating the violence.
    In my opinion the most stupid decision he could ever make.
    France will be closed Saturday from Eiffel Tower to football stadium, all public events and football matches are cancelled.

  70. R. de Haan says:

    Radical elements making use of the Yellow Vests to topple the Government?
    IMHO, Just a lame excuse to use force.

  71. E.M.Smith says:

    @R.de Haan & Sabertoothed:

    I suppose it is about time to start watching France. It will be Saturday there “soon” (a couple of hours?) and who knows how early this will all start.

    One hopes the Idiot Powers That Be learn from watching this, just what is in their future if they continue this crap.

    The whole notion that we’re all doomed from our consumption started being pushed in the late ’60s early ’70s and it is exactly wrong. Thus all the results from it are exactly wrong.

    What is right is the traditional American Can-Do! Attitude.

    Somehow that whole layer of sociopath leadership with a death wish needs to be removed. Perhaps the French will show us how best to proceed… Wonder if we’ll see any signs with the device of the French Haircut on display… or perhaps the question is really “when”…

    Macron’s problem is that he’s the Little Golden Boy who’s been told he’s so smart and so important for so long he believes it. In reality, that kind of self delusional arrogance just leads to disaster. It makes no difference how smart you are if your premisses are wrong and your goals are absurd. So now he’s threatened with revolt, and responds with oppression instead of with “service”. While it is the duty of government to preserve the peace, it is best done by listening to those being “protected” and asking what they want. An arrogant little boy in charge of a toy army is not going to do that, he will be too insecure in his position and power to act with that grace.

    At this point, there is likely too much bad blood in existence to reverse it, even if Macron wished to do so and knew how. I don’t know enough about the French government processes to know how he can be peacefully replaced. Is it the usual Parliamentary “vote of no confidence”, or more like the USA “wait for the end of the term”? Or something else.

    At this point, Macron reminds me of Nixon. In over his head and becoming defensive. Driving away supporters in the process and poisoning public trust.

  72. E.M.Smith says:

    An excellent article full of links at the bottom here:
    https://www.iceagenow.info/the-revolt-of-the-yellow-vests/

  73. Larry Ledwick says:

    Macron is not that far from Obama and his agitation that led to “hands up don’t shoot” riots, we came within a whisker of a street show down then – he clearly is all in on this and probably unwilling or unable to disengage or call a halt to reconsider what is needed.

  74. E.M.Smith says:

    To quote Scooby: Rahw Roh…

    I think this has lit a match that’s turned into a bonfire that’s spreading as a forest fire that’s headed for conflagration of the continent.

    Folks simmered and shouted and complained and the suffered way too long, and now they see a way to be heard. Best not get in front of this…

  75. Another Ian says:

    Paris might get messier

    “Sacrebleu !! Macron Shuts Down Paris in Attempt To Stop Protests, Deploys 89,000 Police Around France….Sacrebleu !! Macron Shuts Down Paris in Attempt To Stop Protests, Deploys 89,000 Police Around France….”

    https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2018/12/07/sacrebleu-macron-shuts-down-paris-in-attempt-to-stop-protests-deploys-89000-police-around-france/#more-157514

  76. Another Ian says:

    Oops on that double post.

  77. E.M.Smith says:

    I’m not seeing a double…..

    Yeah, 89000 police in the streets… and the protesters paid how much attention to the police last time? It’s fairly easy to get 1000 in front of the police, wait while they reinforce, and have 500 more pop up a half mile to the side… or in another town.

    This just raises the stakes in the Whack-A-Mole…

  78. Larry Ledwick says:

    Well lookie here:

  79. E.M.Smith says:

    So yellow is the new brave…

  80. beththeserf says:

    E.M. :) Say,
    Fool me once, fool me twice,
    but fool me thrice? What messaging
    does that send to yr Platonist
    born-to-rule-elitist of
    noble ‘necessary’ lie or
    Tyrannous Rex or revolutionary
    Che Guevara.- ‘eggs, (heads)
    must be cracked for the five, (ten)
    (or more) year technocratist plan
    ‘n great-leap-forward.*

    *( backward.)

  81. beththeserf says:

    Should’ve added, yes, ‘yellow is the new brave.’
    ‘n green the new ‘red menace.’ Color of change?

  82. Larry Ledwick says:

    It is almost noon in France at this time.

    https://www.euronews.com/2018/12/08/paris-is-on-lockdown-as-france-braces-for-a-fourth-week-of-yellow-vest-protests

    https://www.france24.com/en/20181208-live-hundreds-detained-paris-france-braces-new-anti-macron-riots

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-protests-teargas/french-police-use-tear-gas-against-protesters-in-central-paris-idUSKBN1O70BY

    https://apnews.com/ef1707ec02684d15acdb79c29f949200

    https://voiceofeurope.com/2018/12/watch-four-livestreams-of-yellow-vests-protests-in-paris/

    DW News Retweeted
    Catherine Martens
    ‏@cath_martens
    1 hour ago
    More
    “They start to tear gas us although we are pacifists”! #giletjaunes #macron @dwnews

    https://www.euronews.com/2018/12/08/paris-is-on-lockdown-as-france-braces-for-a-fourth-week-of-yellow-vest-protests

  83. Larry Ledwick says:

    A bit more news and video of the Paris Protests this evening, the Gilets Jaunes (Yellow Vest) movement has taken root in the social consciousness of France and Europe, it will take the authorities a long time to get back to “normal”. Society will be on a hair trigger for quite some time.

    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/dec/8/paris-shutters-itself-in-fear-of-worsening-protest/

    https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/france-protests-and-the-yellow-vests-deep-anger-reveal-the-hypocrisy-at-the-heart-of-the-green-agenda

    https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-12-08/paris-lockdown-watch-live-hundreds-arrested-tear-gas-deployed-during-fourth-week

    https://correspondent.afp.com/yellow-explosion-paris

    https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2018/12/08/in-pictures-yellow-vest-act-iv-protest-violence-spreads-across-macrons-france/

  84. gallopingcamel says:

    Wow! This is something big. Who imagined that the French mattered any more? Yet here they are exposing the utter failure of the EU “Tyranny by Bureaucrat” and their globalist philosophy.

    How many of us knew more than a couple of verses of the French national anthem? My guess is that very few French people are familiar with the whole thing. Thank you Chiefio for sharing that with us all. How powerful and how appropriate to what is going on around the world!

    Here in the USA we have the “Deep State” that can harass our president and anyone who supports him for imagined crimes while ignoring the real crimes committed by the corrupt elites who have undermined our democracy since Ronald Reagan.

    So why are these riots going on in Paris instead of Washington? Why are the French more outraged by corrupt government than we are?

  85. Larry Ledwick says:

    So why are these riots going on in Paris instead of Washington? Why are the French more outraged by corrupt government than we are?

    The Europeans and the democrats and anarchists do street marches and riots, – – break a few windows, burn a few cars and wave signs.

    The sleeping giant of America, is like the big dog that sits there silently with its ears laid back. When pushed too far the reaction will be sudden and violent, the quiet traditional patriotic America seeths in silence but when crossed it, does Lexington and Concord when they finally get pushed too far.

    No one wants to go there! but the elitists just don’t learn. The deep state if it keeps pushing they may get there.

    The battle of Athens is a pretty good object lesson the deep state should get familiar with.

    Battle of Athens

  86. E.M.Smith says:

    Most people don’t really give a damn what kind of government they have. They just want a reasonably secure place to live a normal family life out of poverty. Once they are in an OK “middle class” setting, they are pretty much happy, be it rabid capitalism, or rampant socialism.

    The problem is that about 10% ish of the population are power hungry Greedy Evil Bastards. They don’t care if the system is Capitalism or Socialism either. They just start working the social system until they are in a position of power and authority and then start raking in the bennies.

    The “genius” of free markets is that we have lots of slots for those people to fill at the tops of all sorts of companies where they must then compete against each other. Season with a few anti-trust laws to prevent them colluding / combining into one single GEB Monster, and it’s pretty stable.

    OTOH, Socialism and pretty much ANY Central Authority Based System (we’re talking Royalty, Empires, Collectives like the UN and EU) eventually has One Alpha GEB take over (and then can only be deposed upon their death or complete society breakdown – Venezuela…) or has a Cartel of GEBs take over (and then can only be deposed by general riot and having the military switch sides – USSR / EU / UN).

    It is far less traumatic to have a company go insolvent or broken up by the government (AT&T, Standard Oil) than it is to suffer total revolution and collapse (France, several times, USSR, Venezuela in progress).

    That is THE major reason for my supporting Free Markets over Central Authority. There are also a few dozen minor ones, and the not-so-minor point that there is just not enough information flow capacity for Central Authority to work as well as Distributed Decision Making Markets.

    One of the ways a Market Economy can reach the point of collapse is when taxes become “too high”. This isn’t some touchy-feely thing. It’s a hard rule. “No government long survives once taxes exceed 50%” is a statement made long ago (and I’ve lost track of who first said it). It is also quite true.

    At that point, more of the economy is under Central Authority Control by the Government than is in the Free Market. That Central Authority just can’t stand the idea of folks making decisions without its input, and pretty soon “regulatory burden” becomes crushing.

    At the same time, if I have to earn € 100 to spend € 50, and the market has to charge € 60 to sell me something that really costs only € 30 to them (since THEY too must pay that 50% tax bite some how) then suddenly earning € 100 is not enough to buy a € 30 item…

    The economy starts to grind to a halt and people do ever more black market just to survive.

    At present, France has (I’ve heard two different numbers on the news) between 43% and 49% of GDP running through the government as taxes…

    In short, they are banging their collective heads into the 50% Death Ceiling… Those at the dearest end of financial straights are already failing to have an “acceptable life”. Several folks who were interviewed said they were making about 1000-1200 € / month. Explain to me how someone earning € 14400 / year is going to even have basic survival in Paris, with VAT at something like 20% and prices crazy high. One couple was interviewed in their flat that was dinky. They had 2 light bulbs in the place but only ran one of them to keep costs down – leaving the door open to the other room…

    In some cases, these folks are driving 30 km to / from work. At $7/gallon even with a nice Diesel (that many don’t have, btw…) that’s about € 10 / day. Bump that up 10% more with a gas tax hike, somebody ether doesn’t eat, or turns out the last light bulb… They have to find that added € 20 / month somewhere…

    So that’s a large part of why France is over the edge into street riots and the USA isn’t. We’re still far enough away from the 50% line that it’s painful, but not lethal to the society. Our gas is much cheaper and our wages are generally higher. Basically, most Americans still have a “good enough life”.

    Unfortunately, our Globalists were busy doing everything possible to end the American Dream. Raising taxes, letting invading “migrants” flood in to lower job wages, pushing for ever more Central Authority (Obamacare taking over 1/6 of the economy in one swoop…), “trade treaties” and “climate agreements” that destroy industries, etc. etc.

    So we elected Trump instead of rioting. As long as Trump can fix things, no riots and nobody in the street about shrinking government.

    IF the Loony Side Of Left manages to depose Trump and the Globalists get back in power, it is my opinion we’ll be well on our way to France inside a couple of years (if not a couple of months… depending on who gets in…) and if the Clinton-Obama Cartel gets into power (directly or via proxy) we’ll be Venezuela by the end of their term(s)… Somewhere in the middle of that process as we approach the 50% mark, the economy will start to contract (shoving us more rapidly over that mark…) and we’ll have the Street Theater first, then real riots shortly after.

    Pray for a 2nd Trump Term…

  87. H.R. says:

    Or, as Janis Joplin put it, “Freedom’s just another word for nothing left to lose.”

  88. Simon Derricutt says:

    EM – that’s a pretty good summation of where we are and why the French are revolting. A few figures may be a bit off, though. I figure the 10% GEBs is more like 5%, but because they have a larger effect it may seem like 10%, or it’s possible it’s even less than 5%. As regards fuel costs, currently it’s around 1.4-1.46 euros per litre, and at current rates that’s around $6-£6.3 per US gallon. My car does around 25km per litre, and few will do less than 16km/litre unless you have an unusually large car or are particularly heavy-footed, so the cost of that 30km commute (60km total) is somewhat less than 5 euros/day for most. THere’s a degree of pissed-offness about the overall speed-limit being dropped from 90km/h to 80km/h which is part of the “fuel-saving” agenda, so everyone is taking longer to get places (or getting speeding tickets since speed-traps are springing up in more places). There was also the threat of changing the tests on cars to be far more comprehensive, which could well have eliminated my old (but very efficient) car and of course a large proportion of everyone else’s older cars too. In France, secondhand cars are far more expensive than you’d expect, and whereas in the UK I’d have paid somewhere around £150-200 for an “old banger” that was still passing its tests, in France I paid 1100 euros and that was a very good deal, with equivalent cars (but a bit less battered) being around 1500 euros. People tend not to change cars often because each time you do there’s a lot of red tape and taxes to pay.

    The high taxes mean that putting the car into the garage to get fixed is a major expense. They charge 100-150 euros per hour, which is more than an order of magnitude more than the people earn. Of course I don’t put the car into a garage, but repair myself it when needed. Fewer people these days have the knowledge to repair the things they use. My pension amounts to around 6000 euros/year at the moment (may get a bit more in a couple of years), which is a bit tight, but then I don’t owe anybody and don’t have a mortgage, so it stretches far enough. For somebody renting their house, or paying a mortgage, much more is needed in order to survive. With increased fuel costs and relatively low wages, for a lot of people it really is a choice of heating or eating, choose one.

    It’s thus been getting harder for the majority to make ends meet anyway, and then there’s the prospect of things getting that bit harder for no good reason. It’s just that last straw. There’s a demand to raise minimum wage, but it should be obvious (to people here, anyway) that that simply changes the number of euros people get, but increased prices of everything will counter that and people will still be finding it just as hard to make the wages last the month. What’s needed is a reduction in the taxes.

    Macron has done some things that should make France more competitive, and has been reducing some of the regulatory burden, but it’s that tax burden that’s making life hard.

  89. beththeserf says:

    When taxes become too high…

  90. cdquarles says:

    Remember, Simon, that regulations are taxes and taxes are regulations. All of the West is at or above that 50% mark. Most of it simply isn’t visible, yet. As far as wages go, I don’t care if my wages change, so long as my purchasing power doesn’t drop. Make my purchasing power drop, then I’ll cut back first, try to supplement 2nd and only get ‘mad’ as a last resort.

    I also remember that what GEBs want is power. Money is secondary and is only a way to keep score as long as exchange keeps happening. Thus, I am not so sanguine about ‘anti-trust’ laws. I think these helped put us on the path we are on; because my response to them, as a free man, is: “What do those blokes think they are doing, beyond criminalizing success?”, so to speak. The only ‘anti-trust’ law I would agree with is that no business can get the government to prevent any market reaction to my own action.

    Markets are inherently self-regulating. Values are inherently conditionally true, especially for the individual holding it. Values just can’t be ‘stable’ in the real world. If it isn’t useful, right now, at a price I am willing to pay; then it has *no value* right now. Yesterday’s dead and gone. Tomorrow “never” comes. Does that mean be ‘shortsighted’? No, it means that values are time dependent. After all, I am a mortal man doomed to die. When, I don’t know. Possibly the next hour (it takes that long for irreversible cessation of metabolism to occur, barring absorbing enough energy to undergo complete vaporization in less time than 1 hour). Possibly the next day, or the next week, or the next month or the next year, up to “And the span of a man’s years shall be 120”. Since I am, just as a number of the other denizens here are, in my 7th decade of life, I know that I have less time ahead of me than I have had behind me. What bothers me about today’s America is that so many people have been gulled by a false religion, in my opinion, that it makes me worry about the future that will be the present for my children and grandchildren.

  91. Another Ian says:

    H.R. says:
    9 December 2018 at 9:21 am

    Or, as Janis Joplin put it, “Freedom’s just another word for nothing left to lose.”

    Wasn’t that Kris K?

  92. gallopingcamel says:

    @cdquarles,
    “All of the West is at or above that 50% mark.”
    According to the Tax Foundation April 19th is “Tax Freedom Day”. Given that April 19 is the 109th day that implies that our tax burden averages 29.8%. That is a long way from 50%.
    https://taxfoundation.org/publications/tax-freedom-day/

    That sounds plausible to me. OK you can argue that the Evil Bastards who fix things like drug prices are imposing an invisible tax on US citizens but we don’t have any way to quantify that yet.

  93. Larry Ledwick says:

    If you account for Federal, State, and local taxes, including sales tax, and excise taxes (fuel, road mile fees on truckers and special disposal fees on tires etc.) plus mandatory fees for essential functions like auto license plates and registration fees (special cell phone fees, water and sewage taxes, (which are essentially one time taxes), property taxes (direct or fraction of rent paid) and other usage taxes, the total does come out near 50% for most people. The problem is many taxes and fees are hidden inside general billing processes.

    6.2% of your salary goes directly to Social Security but a matching amount is paid by your employer so a total of 12.4% of your nominal salary goes to social security.

    For people in good paying jobs about 18% above deductions goes to Federal government, most states have a smaller state tax of around 3-6% for most residents.

    Your entire take home pay is taxed at least at the local sales tax level which is around 10% now where I live, the fraction going to gasoline is taxed at over 50%
    State gasoline taxes range from 17.34 cents per gallon to 58.7 cents per gallon. On a $3.00 gallon of gas that is a state fuel tax rate of 5.78% to 19.5% plus Federal fuel taxes of 18.4 cents/ gallon or 6.1% federal tax on a $3.00 gallon of gasoline. The average of state taxes are 28.62 cents per gallon and federal at 18.4 cents per gallon for a total of 47.02 cents per gallon on average or 15.6% total tax rate for a $3.00 gallon of gasoline

    12.4% (social security) 18% of taxable income, plus 10% on take home pay for sales tax plus another 5.6% on that spent for gasoline easily gets to the 40% range and that is not including hidden taxes in the form of special fees etc.

    Their definition of tax free day totally ignores all those secondary taxes and taxation by fees.

  94. H.R. says:

    @Another Ian re Janis vs Kris

    Janis Joplin’s song is the only version I’ve ever heard. I lifted that one line because that’s how the revolution for freedom starts; when the serfs have nothing left to lose.

    http://www.metrolyrics.com/me-and-bobby-mcgee-lyrics-janis-joplin.html

  95. R. de Haan says:

    For many people paying taxes but not having money in the pocket to make through the month, the question comes up if there’s still life before death. Some people can‘t imagine such a situation but protestors interviewed by foreign press pointed out that many of them no longer could afford their car or ha the pocket change available to pay for the travel expenses to do a job interview. Despite that they travel to the cities in France to fight for their cause and make their voice heard.
    They want Macron to go and as long as Macron stay’s in office, they will continue their protests.
    No matter the price.
    https://etleboro.org/g/2ba7a01f5b31a4188ec13624ab066d12en/french-%E2%80%98yellow-vest%E2%80%99-protester-has-hand-blown-off-by-grenade-as-country-descends-into-violence-and-bloodshed

  96. gallopingcamel says:

    @ Larry Ledwick,
    According to the Tax Foundation:
    “In 2018, Americans will pay $3.4 trillion in federal taxes and $1.8 trillion in state and local taxes, for a total bill of $5.2 trillion, or 30 percent of the nation’s income.”

    Can you produce an itemized list to explain the gap between your assertion of >50% in taxes and the Tax Foundation’s 30%?

  97. H.R. says:

    @gallopingcamel

    Here’s a list of 97 taxes Americans pay. I read through the list rather quickly and I’ll bet there are a few that were missed.

    https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-25/list-97-taxes-americans-pay-every-year

    I’d have to go through that list more carefully to see if all the ‘sin’ taxes were included. One of the more insidious taxes is the alcohol tax. That’s paid by the producer and passed on in the price of the product. Then the lucky taxpayer gets to pay sales tax on that portion of the product price that is a tax; a tax on a tax and there are other taxes like that. I’m waiting for State governments to start charging sales tax on vehicle licenses. It’s only a matter of time.

    I suppose traffic tickets can be considered a tax. Maybe call it a “Haste Tax?” I told my son when he started driving that he was free to drive as fast as he could afford, and then pointed out that he couldn’t afford a ticket 😜

  98. Larry Ledwick says:

    Can you produce an itemized list to explain the gap between your assertion of >50% in taxes and the Tax Foundation’s 30%?

    I just did in general terms and the zero hedge article goes into more detail, every expenditure you make includes multiple hidden taxes – every transaction layer gets taxed, some times taxes on taxes.

    For example you get a nominal salary (ie your cost to the employer for your services) Right off the top of that 12.4% goes to social security 6.2% is allocated to your paycheck directly as a tax you payed but the other 6.2 % is charged to the employer yet it all comes from the same bank account, the employers salary withdrawl from his accounts.

    Then the money that is left is taxed at about 18% by the Feds and about 4-6% by the state before you even get your check, plus hidden taxes that come out of the employers pocket due to the fact he lets you work for him, including unemployment taxes he is obligated to pay, the funds he contributes toward your various employment benefits like life insurance health insurance etc. All of those expenses have hidden taxes buried in them that are paid up stream by the health insurance and life insurance provider and passed on to him and ultimately you as a price increase in the service.

    When you finally get your take home pay, every dime of it you spend is taxed at the retail level in some way, mostly general sales taxes but some is taxed in the form of government mandated fees such as the odd billing charges itemized in your cell phone bill, or energy bills, your rent or mortgage is taxed in the form service fees, ( sewer and water, fire district , registration or licensing and permitting fees ) in the case of high demand items like alcohol, cigarettes, gasoline, and diesel fuel you have excise [or as noted above sin taxes], even your savings are taxed in the form of general inflation rate as the government quietly steals purchasing power in small doses to keep the currency afloat. Buried in the cost of nearly everything you buy are indirect taxation from compliance fees and taxes at the next higher level such as corporate taxes which are really taxes on the purchaser of their products since they just pass those costs on to the buyer in their prices. The nominal corporate tax rate right now is a flat 21% so everything you buy from a corporation costs you 21% more than it would if there was no corporate tax (that is before it is taxed at about 10% for sales taxes. So an item you buy for $100, really could have been sold to you for $79 if there were not corporate income taxes and because of sales taxes you actually pay $110 for it if you live in a 10% sales tax area and it has not excise taxes. 110/79 = .28% taxation before you ever take possetion of the item and you pay for it with pay which has already been taxed at 12.4% + 18%+4% by SSocial security, Federal and State taxes or 34.4% so to cover the $110 dollar purchase price your employer has to pay you $147.84 in total including his hidden costs of social security.

    Net an item that the corporation could have sold at $79 with no loss in profit, costs you and your employer $147.84. That is an effective tax rate of about 53%

    Government taxation is a giant pyramid scheme as they take a cut at every layer of a transaction, they tax the fuel used to refine the metal then take a cut on the fuel used to transport the metal to the factory, then take a cut of all the salaries paid to make it into a useful product plus all the taxes and fees incured by the manufacture, then take a cut of the fuel expenses to get it to the store then take a cut of the salaries of the employees who stock the shelves and sell the product and even the salaries of the accountants who toil to figure out how much to pay them for paying them. Then at the cash register they tax you again, on the money you pull out of your wallet which was already taxed before the check cleared the bank, then they get a cut of the fuel expense for you to take the item home.

    I am not saying government taxes should be abolished, but that we need to consciously understand that the actual tax bill is many times higher than the nominal tax bill you see on your sales receipt or on your w-2 form when you figure your income taxes.

    In fact, if you follow transactions from the source to the user, the government essentially sucks up 100% or the funds if more than a handful of transactions are needed to get the finished product to the user. The only actual retained wealth is that small fraction that you manage to sock away for a rainy day and the actual utilitarian value of the goods you purchase.

  99. Simon Derricutt says:

    GC and CDQ – Larry’s post points out the real tax-rate on income, and I recall someone else working out that the real tax rates were in the region 60-70% in a lot of Europe. No links for that. One way to work it out would be to look at the numbers of people employed in gummint jobs as opposed to the number of people employed in free enterprise. When you look at how many people are actually involved in production rather than services, then as a rough guess each production job supports around 10 people (that’s including family, pensioners etc.). May be more. That’s going to change as we get more automation, of course, and maybe the number of people doing “essential” jobs could become as little as 1% of the total population.

    If the government puts up the Minimum Wage, then all the costs of everything will rise. For someone with an income from a job, no problems as all boats are lifted by the tide. For someone with savings, the value of the money is reduced and this is a hidden tax. Money evaporates over time unless it’s stored as something of permanent value. Few things really provide such permanent value, though. Foodstuffs tend to decay over long storage, Gold changes value at the moment and, if someone invents a cheap transmutation process, will only be as valuable as any other element. Land and other property can be confiscated for various reasons, and there are enough examples of this in other countries that we can’t assert “that would never happen here”.

    Maybe the best indicator of how much people are taxed is how many hours per year they need to work in order to have a comfortable life. When I was young, the working man could support a wife and kids on 40 hours per week, and had a couple of weeks holiday in Skegness per year, and could afford a basic car for personal travel. These days, his wife will be working as well, and they’ll both be looking for overtime over that 40 hours/week to make ends meet, and take public transport rather than owning a car. It sure seems things are actually harder. Back in the Middle Ages, the serfs didn’t have to work as much as that for their lords.

  100. cdquarles says:

    @ GC, et al. My primary point is that most of the taxes are not visible. That does not mean that they are not felt. They are and that because people seem to focus on visible taxes on income, they may miss that we are closer to the breaking point than generally realized.

    Another thing people need to get away from is that notion of permanent value. The only economic value any thing has is current marginal use value to a decision maker, right here, right now. Yesterday is dead and gone. Tomorrow ‘never’ comes. It is a shame that the insights brought to light by the Austrian School over 100 years ago are still not widely known as they should be. So much economic malpractice currently practiced simply wouldn’t have traction. It there is any school of economic thought that ‘grokked’ human nature, the Austrian school did it best.

  101. cdquarles says:

    @H. R. Which kind of vehicle license are you talking about? If you are talking about the driving privilege license, that’s 100% of the states, as far as I know. If you are talking about the vehicle registration, well, mine has been doing that for as long as I have lived. That one is a combination of the paperwork registration fee (about $25) plus state and local ad valorem taxes. Both the registration fee and the ad valorem rates have changed over the years, but not by much. We won’t allow it :P.

    Fun local fact. The state sales tax rate has not changed for at least almost 60 years. It is still the same 4% rate for most taxable items now that it was when I moved here in ’62, and nearly all items are taxable. For motor vehicles, that rate is still 1.75%. Local municipalities can and do tack on their own rates. Add those, most places are 10% with a range of 8 to 12%, from memory. Vehicle sales tax rates, I think, are capped at 4%, total. Where the local rates are lower, you pay a lower rate. I once bought a car in a neighboring state. Because I was going to register that vehicle in my home state, I did not have to pay that state’s sales tax. I did have to pay it when I registered the vehicle. That was the highest vehicle registration I’ve ever paid at one time.

    Gas taxes are another matter. State gas tax hasn’t changed recently. The local one did, so you will see as much as 10 cents a gallon price differentials depending on where you buy it. Some of that is supplier dependent. Where the supplier(s) charge similar amounts, the variance is the combined gas tax.

    Argh, left out an “its” in the previous post.

  102. H.R. says:

    I was referring to all of the various licensing transactions at a Bureau of Motor Vehicles, cdquarles.

    For the time being, I believe all 57 (*wink*) States have the decency to acknowledge that you’re in there paying a tax, so there’s no sales tax. But the first State that gets the bright idea to add sales tax on the licensing taxes and gets away with it will unleash the other States to get in on that action.
    .
    .
    .
    Side story on a tax that was to reasonable to last. My State used to have State Liquor stores, owned by the State and run by State employees. Since the State didn’t have much of a liquor industry, they weren’t able to tax the makers at the distilleries in other States. State stores allowed pretty much assured collection of State imposed liquor taxes so no sales taxes were collected when you bought from a ‘State Store.’ All taxes were included and if the shelf tag said $10.00 then that’s what you paid.

    About 15 or 20 years ago, to cut costs and increase revenue, they closed all the State Stores, got rid of the attendant employees and their pensions, health insurance, etc., and licensed about 3 times as many retail outlets than they had before to sell liquor. So, more outlets, still very tight control, much lower overhead as there just needs to be a small cadre of State employees to cruise around on audit and enforcement duty.

    And now we pay sales tax on liquor at these ‘retail’ outlets.

    Someday I’m going to look through our State’s directories and see if there is a Department of Creative Development of Sneaky Stealth and Outright Overt Burdensome Taxation. There’s got to be a bunch of offices and cubicles filled with a couple of hundred State employees tasked with doing nothing else but to come up with new ways to extract tax revenue from any and every possible source.

  103. R. de Haan says:

    I wondered why the most favorite claim from all battered political entities didn’t surface earlier:
    “The Russians are behind it,” Now in all the MMS and TV in Europe.

  104. R. de Haan says:

    Looks like the Russians have traded places with the Jews.

  105. R. de Haan says:

    In the mean time I think Brexit is off the rail after European High Court decided Article 50 can be revoked without consequences.
    http://news.trust.org/item/20181210154633-ygpjh

    Looks like the Yellow Vests have a new battlefield if they pull the plug on Brexit.

  106. E.M.Smith says:

    @Simon:

    The 10% is my SWAG (Scientific Wild Ass Guess) based on the number of such persons I meet at a typical company. I’m not saying 10% of leadership… They are not all successful… Some end up running small time frauds…

    I guess I drive bigger cars than you do… Oddly, mostly German… The wagon gets about 16 Mpg to 18 Mpg… (Mercedes 6 cyl gas… I liked the old Diesel better at 23 mpg but it is no more…)

    @CDQuarles:

    I’ve posted why many times before, so I’m not going to do through it again here; but there is a real need for anti-trust laws as the market is NOT inherently self regulating. It is inherently unstable to the largest size in many industries. You end up in a ‘Fattest wallet wins” game and the first Fat Wallet becomes King. This isn’t speculation, it is economic history. China is trying to become the worlds biggest Single Wallet Cartel at the moment, and without Trump we would be slowly put out of business by those unfair trade practices. It is about 2 weeks to cover all of it ( had it in school as part of the degree requirements) so not going to sort it in a couple of “is so – is not” comments).

    @Tax$gdp:

    Nobody knows, or can know. There are so many hidden taxes and taxes on taxes that at best you can make crude bounds.

    Feds are about 26%. California has an 11% income and 10% (roughly – varies by city) sales tax, that gets applied to the gasoline tax, that is an ‘excise tax’ on every gallon, plus you get to pay the roughly 1%+ of valuation “property tax” on ALL land in the State owned by anyone (companies bundle it in product costs so that also gets a sales tax component) then as mentioned there’s that 12.4% SS tax that was taken out before you even saw your check…

    Best estimates I’ve seen have it somewhere in the 30s% maybe… or possibly low 40%.

    Now, don’t forget the 2%-3% hidden tax of Fed Policy on every dollar denominated account as they inflate away the value by just spending money that is created out of thin air…

    It is essentially a game of 4 levels of government (Fed,State, County, Local) trying to hide taxes on every possible thing, and the Economists trying to account for them all looking at the ones they can find. I just recently bought a piece of wood at Home Depot to fix some little thing… Discovered a tax I’d never seen before on the bill – a “Lumber Tax”… So good luck finding them all.

    Best I can do is state what it was for me: About 50% as combined Fed / State income and sales taxes. That did not include SS tax allowance nor gasoline tax allowance nor property taxes nor a dozen others. At that point I stopped working in California… (There’s a reason I took those contracts in Florida…)

    @H.R.:

    California has a New Car Reg Fee that just happens to be exactly the same as the Sales Tax at about 10%… Yes, buy a $40,000 car you pay $4000 of taxes. That SLOWLY declines year by year to end at about $200 around 10 years later. In essence the State collects about 1/2 the “value” of the car as taxes over the life of the vehicle. This is a significant part of why my NEWEST car is 17 years old and the last new car I bought was in 1986 …

    @R. de Haan:

    Yeah, was watching the House Of Commons earlier. T. May got a good roasting…

    She’s stuck between the Remoaners who want a do-over election and not to leave at all and the Brexiteers who think what she delivered is BINO Brexit In Name Only. I expect her government to be up for elections in about a week… At this point nobody trusts her.

  107. Larry Ledwick says:

    Here in Colorado you pay sales tax on the declared purchase price of the car on your first registration.After that there are no taxes paid above the basic registration/emissions certification cost (by the way it costs you $25 to get the emissions test you must have to register the car and even if you don’t drive it you must also have basic auto insurance on it to get the tags).

    It used to be, just “how much did you pay for the car”, “Oh I just paid $500.00” sort of thing but now you have to fill out a form on penalty of perjury declaring the actual price paid for the car. The fee paid for registering a car is calculated on the value of the car at the time it is registered (ie blue book value) and its weight. That is why I tend to buy and drive older cars.

    My 99 Subaru outback that just got totaled cost me $76 to register for a year a week before it was wrecked. On a new car the fee might be $500 – $700 depending on the value of the car. They do also penalize you if you do not register the car for a while, if you are 30+ days late registering the car there is a penalty fee, and if you go longer than that, you now have to pay up registration for the months not registered. You cannot cut costs by parking the car for 6 months and then renewing the registration, which is what many people used to do. They would own 2 – 3 cars but only have current tags on one or two of them, keeping the other on hand if needed as an emergency replacement but with no over head of plates. Now many cities make it illegal to park an unregistered car in plain view, (you have to hide it behind a fence or in a garage) and you cannot save money buy just holding a collector car unregistered.

    Incrementally they are just gradually closing every revenue loop hole one by one until you get to the place that no matter what you do, they screw you.

  108. Another Ian says:

    H.R. says:
    10 December 2018 at 1:08 am

    @Another Ian re Janis vs Kris

    http://performingsongwriter.com/kris-kristofferson-bobby-mcgee/

  109. Another Ian says:

    “France: the streets belong to the Butchers and Bakers while the UN argues over a meanginless word”

    http://joannenova.com.au/2018/12/france-the-streets-belong-to-the-butchers-and-bakers-while-the-un-argues-over-a-meanginless-word/

  110. H.R. says:

    @Another Ian – Well huh. Whaddya know?

    I never heard anyone but Janis do that song. From your link, it turns out that several artists did a cover of it, and I come to find that Kris K wrote it.

    I learn new things every day.

  111. philjourdan says:

    @gallopingCamel – CD said ‘with regulations’. Regulations are not easy to quantify since they are hidden in bureaucratic costs. But they do drive up prices (and are the biggest reason the economy took off under Trump – their elimination).

    As another said, with the average tax rate (marginal) being about 28% federal, add in 5% state (Texas and Florida are better off, CA and NY worse), add in 15.3% (do not forget Medicare!) for the tax that is called retirement that you will never see since it was spent for other heart bleeding reasons, add in 1.5-3% for Unemployment, and you are at 49.8% – without sales tax, PP tax, RE tax, or any other tax OR any regulations.

    Hence, the claim of over 50% (for those who PAY taxes) is mindnumbingly true and apparent.

  112. gallopingcamel says:

    @Larry Ledwick,
    “I just did in general terms and the zero hedge article goes into more detail, every expenditure you make includes multiple hidden taxes – every transaction layer gets taxed, some times taxes on taxes.”

    Yes, that is indeed a list. What I am asking for is a list of items that the Tax Foundation somehow overlooked with a dollar value assigned to each of them.

    To explain the difference between the 30% of GNP documented by the Tax Foundation and your claim of >50% (Taxes divided by GDP) your list should amount to at least another $3.5 trillion per year. I looked at your list carefully but can’t imagine the total being even $0.5 trillion.

    Please understand that I am very reluctant to disagree with you but I am a numerate person who can’t accept anything unless the numbers make sense. No, I was not born in Missouri but in Wales (UK).

  113. E.M.Smith says:

    @G.C.:

    Part of the problem in the disagreement of the percentage ( 30% pretty much guaranteed as minimum to 50% as near the top) is that it depends on the individual paying the taxes. So if you look at ALL people as an average, you get closer to 30% because about 1/2 the people are not paying any significant income tax. If you look at the other half, they are closer to 60%. Average those two, you get the 40% to 45% that’s most likely what most people see… (or don’t see as so many taxes are hidden).

    I’m pretty sure it is not possible to enumerate the list you ask for, simply because so many taxes are hidden and lots are irregularly distributed. Capital Gains, for example.

  114. gallopingcamel says:

    Simon Derricutt says, 10 December 2018 at 2:12 pm:

    “GC and CDQ – Larry’s post points out the real tax-rate on income, and I recall someone else working out that the real tax rates were in the region 60-70% in a lot of Europe.”

    I arrived in the USA in 1982 to witness the aftermath of “Stagflation” and a mortgage interest rate of 17%. While the natives were running around like de-capitated chickens I was ecstatic! Before leaving for the USA I was Technical Director of a major (US owned) company with a staff of 520 people. On arrival in the USA I was an “Operations Executive” in the same company with a “Nine to Five” job and no staff other than my secretary.

    Even though my USA job was a huge demotion compared to my UK job, the salary was three times higher. In my first year in the USA I paid more in taxes than my gross salary in the previous year, yet I was happier than a pig in s**t. My colleagues were amazed by the fact that I loved the IRS, the taxing authorities in the state of New Jersey and in New York City where I worked.

    So why was I so happy to pay such huge taxes? While the gumment (federal, state and city) took one third of my gross income I got to keep the other two thirds which was twice my gross income in the UK.

    While I was paying 17% on my mortgage, my house was 5,400 square feet in a four acre lot in Milford, New Jersey which I bought for $110,000 and sold five years later for $297,000. A year earlier I was living in a house in the UK that was 1,100 square feet in a 0.25 acre lot in Stansted, Essex not too far from the 3rd London airport. That house cost $100,000 even though it was a “Duplex”.

    In spite of my high paying job in the UK I arrived with savings of less than $20,000. After taking up residence in the USA my savings have done much better in spite of a much more lavish life style.

  115. gallopingcamel says:

    @Chiefio,
    “I’m pretty sure it is not possible to enumerate the list you ask for, simply because so many taxes are hidden and lots are irregularly distributed. Capital Gains, for example.”

    That is above my pay grade but it should be within the capability of the Tax Foundation.

    I lived in the UK for much of my life before relocating to the USA at age 45. On arrival I suffered culture shock including the wonderful fiscal shock I mentioned earlier.

    Since leaving the UK in 1982 I have returned many times and have been dismayed by the relentless degradation of my homeland. Over the same period the USA has degraded to a much lesser extent. Under Donald Trump we may turn things around as we did under Ronald Reagan.

    What scares me is our failure to find a worthy successor to Ronald Reagan. Will we find a worthy successor to Donald Trump?

  116. beththeserf says:

    Liberty ever on a knife edge, galloping camel.

    Dead hand of too much guvuhmint intervention in human affairs…I’m doing me next serf post on consequences of this in science and yr cli-sci models, beautiful as they may seem.

  117. Simon Derricutt says:

    GC – your experience shows the truth of CDQ’s comment that it’s all about whether you feel you’re getting a good deal or being squeezed. In the UK, as here in France, people are feeling they’ve been squeezed for a long time. Funnily enough, I’ve found a bit less of a squeeze in France than the UK, but then part of the move across involved getting rid of the mortgage (property in France is far cheaper than in the UK) so my outgoings on such things reduced by a lot. I also don’t have to pay other people to fix things for me, which removes that high expense that most need to pay. Despite having an income that’s officially well below poverty-level, I’m actually doing fine.

    In the UK, as you’ve noted, house prices are very high relative to incomes. Whether renting or buying, it’s a big chunk of the income. Young people these days may never be able to buy a house, since the rents eat so much of their income they can’t save enough to buy, and then the price of a house is over 10 years’ income for most people if you’re reasonably close to where you need to work. Houses are in short supply because there’s a high immigration rate and because government policies at many levels have tried to reduce the number of houses built. House prices rise a lot faster than wages. It seems the same may apply in the States in a lot of places too, since you made such a profit on the Milford house. That’s just luck – move into a house when the local economy is just on the rise, and sell it before the rise turns into a fall.

    There’s probably still a large black economy in France. Discounts for paying cash and not requiring an invoice so the money doesn’t go through the books. It’s illegal to use cash for a transaction over 300 euros, where it officially has to go through a bank.

    Macron has raised the minimum wage as a response to the Gilets Jaunes, which of course doesn’t come from his budget. There are some taxes reduced/removed as well. He likely still doesn’t understand how Trump managed to reduce the taxes and result in a higher overall tax-take, or just how far France is on the Laffer curve, and so the tax-rates are still pretty high. Maybe he’ll get some clue over time, given Trump’s example.

  118. philjourdan says:

    So why was I so happy to pay such huge taxes? While the gumment (federal, state and city) took one third of my gross income I got to keep the other two thirds which was twice my gross income in the UK.

    If you are starving, a piece of moldy bread is a feast. But to the average person, it is just spoiled food.

    You do make a good point. And no one is saying the US is the worst. As you correctly point out, there are worse out there. But it is the worst it has been in the this country, And even more importantly, this is NOT the UK or any other European country. This is the country founded on a revolution largely based on taxes. The first riots in this new country were due to taxes (The Whiskey rebellion). So while a Dane, a Brit or Ein Deutscher can come here and love the “low” taxes, the citizen who has seen taxes go up with each passing year does not.

  119. gallopingcamel says:

    @Simon Derricutt,
    Thanks for your great comments at “Pointman”. I had written France off as irrelevant but they have much to teach us about the confrontation between elites and “We the People”. Thanks to Chiefio I have read all the verses in “La Marseillaise”.
    https://thepointman.wordpress.com/2018/12/07/revolution/#comment-29808

  120. gallopingcamel says:

    @philjourdan,
    “And no one is saying the US is the worst.”

    You are dead right! Perhaps I have not made myself clear. The USA is the best country that is and arguably the best country that ever was. If you do not agree with me please list the countries you consider more admirable.

    I arrived in the USA in 1982 having visited or worked in thirty countries yet there was no doubt in my mind that the USA was #1. Thirty five years later the USA has declined in so many ways thanks to the decline of pluralism as power gets concentrated into fewer and fewer hands, yet it is still #1.

    Donald Trump understands that power needs to be widely distributed (pluralism or populism) and that requires that our ruling elites be dis-empowered. We need to hand Donald Trump a Reagan-like landslide in 2020. If he gets a second term he is likely to be remembered as the “Best President Ever”.

    Even after a two term Trump presidency we won’t be out of danger. We failed to find a successor for Reagan and it will be even more difficult to find a worthy successor for Donald Trump.

  121. Simon Derricutt says:

    GC – the majority of France is maybe misrepresented by the Northern cities where people tend to be more stressed-out from the pressures of city life and the amount of red tape the government requires. In the North, there’s much more of an official insistence on complying with all the rules whether they are logical or not. It seems the further from the big cities you get, the more people use common sense rather than the rule book. That may be a common thing in most civilised countries, though.

    It’s said that if you put a frog in hot water, it will jump out, but if you put it in cold water and heat it, it will stay there until it boils. In fact, it will jump out when it gets too hot, and that applies to the French, too. There were even Gilets Jaunes at the local town (population around 3000) on the first big day. Some of them people I know. I’d looked at the map beforehand, and seen that Toulouse was expected to be blocked by Gilets Jaunes, but didn’t expect the local turnout. Things are bad when it’s not just the cities that are complaining, but the country folk too.

    The high taxes lead directly to high unemployment and a slow economy, with the young people being hit hardest (they can’t easily get jobs) but everyone not in a government job or in the upper pay-bracket scraping to make ends meet. Some of the things Macron has been doing have actually been good, but his solution to inadequate tax-take from the economy is to raise the taxes further. A new tax will only give an increased tax-take for the first year, then people adjust what they do and the overall tax-take will go down. Going the other way, and reducing the tax rate, would decrease the tax-take for the first year and then show an increase for all subsequent years as the economy gets better and more people are in work to pay the lower taxes. Trump has applied that and it’s obviously working as intended. If Macron learned from that and applied the same principles, he could turn France into a prosperous country. The people can do that if only they weren’t loaded as heavily. As things stand, he may have defused the situation by a few tax-cuts and thus he’ll survive, but the longer-term situation hasn’t been changed because the attitude is to raise taxes to get more income for the government. At some point, it’s not going to be just yellow jackets, but pitch-forks as well.

  122. philjourdan says:

    @GallopingCamel – “You are dead right! Perhaps I have not made myself clear. The USA is the best country that is and arguably the best country that ever was.”

    But it is not perfect – nor guaranteed to be the best. There is a lot of room for improvement, and it has been declining. It is not down yet. But it has fallen. And that is what the thread was pointing out. That 50% threshold has been reached for most of the productive population.

  123. H.R. says:

    @philjourdan “There is a lot of room for improvement, and it has been declining. It is not down yet. But it has fallen. And that is what the thread was pointing out. That 50% threshold has been reached for most of the productive population.”

    YES! We’re snowbirding, but in an effin’ trailer, not the beach condos we used to get. I just cooked out steaks on the grill. Nice! Except we would have been eating out a couple of years ago. I just got back from the store with eggs, pancake mix, and brown ‘n serve sausages, because breakfast out is $20-$25 with tax and tip.

    The squeeze is apparent. Not complaining. Not hurting… yet… still go out for some meals… but the squeeze is definitely on.

    Stock prices are down, but corporate revenue projections and dividends are good, so the outlook is good… for now.

    That was for the U.S. of A. The rest of the world…???? Good luck. Vote anti-GEB and you may turn the corner.

  124. H.R. says:

    Oooo-Kay! Looks like I screwed up the ‘end italics’ tag after quoting Phil.

    E.M. to the rescue for readability? TIA.

  125. E.M.Smith says:

    @H.R.:

    You didn’t screw up. WordPress added another open italics after your close. I’ve had it do that to me in postings. It isn’t often, but it just sometimes puts in another Start FOO right after the END FOO and i can be italics, blockquotes, and others.

    But consider yourself rescued ;-)

  126. H.R. says:

    @E.M. – It’s definitely a WordPress gremlin. I comment on Willis’ WordPress blog here and there and he’s had to bail me out a couple of times. Once or twice was my fault, but there were also some ZOTS! that were not my fault.

    Hmmm… let’s see what happens here. The HTML start italics on ‘ZOTS!’ just now was at the end of an auto-line wrap/CR. Maybe that’s it. Maybe not. I’ll hit post and then we’ll see.

  127. H.R. says:

    Well, no WP auto-corrupt this time so it must create errors via a random error generator. 😆

    They probably have a patent on that.

  128. gallopingcamel says:

    @philjourdan,
    “But it is not perfect – nor guaranteed to be the best. There is a lot of room for improvement, and it has been declining. It is not down yet. But it has fallen. And that is what the thread was pointing out. That 50% threshold has been reached for most of the productive population.”

    Sadly you are right. If Hillary Clinton had been elected as seemed inevitable, the decline of the USA would have accelerated and perhaps become irreversible. Any country can become Venezuela in 20 years. It took less than that for Germany to be taken over by National Socialism.

    Now we have a chance to return to respecting the constitution with its guarantees of individual rather than collective rights. That is why Trump needs a Reagan style victory in 2020.

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