Warning: Lacquer Thinner No Longer Methanol

As you all will remember, my main stove died. I’be been using some of my various “camping stoves” and emergency prep gear instead while I contemplate fixing, replacing or just ignoring the “cooking surface” stove.
A 4 burner GE of about 60 years age…

I figured it would also be a good time to “freshen” some of the stored emergency fuels. Yes, even though things like methanol basically never go bad. The cans and plastic can degrade over decade time scales. So I was using up the bottle of Methanol from a few years back, and the can of “Stove Alcohol” from Walmart bought about 4 years back ( a 50:50 mix of methanol and ethanol). Down to my last pint, I thought I’d just go buy a gallon of “Lacquer Thinner” that had typically run about $8 to $10 for a gallon and was 100% methanol last time I’d looked. (Several years back).

I went to Home Depot. No big can labeled “Methanol” any more. Also none labeled “Xylene”, a nice aeromatic 120 or so octane fuel I’d used as an additive for a 1976 era motorcycle a couple of decades back that really wanted high octane fuel. Clearly CARB has been busy. (California Air Resources Board).

There was, however, an $18 gallon of “Lacquer Thinner”. Expensive, but… So I looked at the can. FINALLY found some of the ingredients in mice type. 2-Propanone? WT? Oh Yeah, that’s the name used for Acetone when you don’t want people to know it’s just acetone. (Or, more precisely, the very organized IUPAC names I had to learn in organic chemistry that are more PITA than help for common materials). Well that’s going to make a sooty pot in my stove. There were other things on the label too, but I didn’t care. Not going to work anyway.

Off to Lowe’s. They had no methanol either. Their Lacquer Thinner didn’t list ANY ingredients. WT? is this with hiding from people what is in the can? In an emergency and somebody spilled or drank it, I’d like to be able to tell the responders EXACTLY what it was, or if out in the boonies, know what it was so I’d know EXACTLY what to do. But no. You are now expected to look up the MSDS on the internet… maybe. Well, about 20 minutes, 2 clerks and 2 managers late, they managed to get an MSDS. It is basically ALL Acetone. The only tip-off being that the can says it ‘evaporates faster than standard lacquer thinner’. Gee Thanks. On the shelf, right next to this $19 / gallon can of acetone was a gallon of Acetone labeled Acetone for cheaper…

Looking online when I got home, here’s the MSDS for the Kleen Strip brand at Home Depot:

http://www.kleanstrip.com/uploads/documents/KS_Lacquer_Thinner_MSDS.pdf

CAS # Hazardous Components (Chemical Name)

3. COMPOSITION/INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS

Concentration

67-64-1 Acetone {2-Propanone} <50.0 %
64742-89-8 Light aliphatic solvent naphtha (petroleum) <=35.0 %
108-88-3 Toluene {Benzene, Methyl-; Toluol} <=31.5 %
67-56-1 Methanol {Methyl alcohol; Carbinol; Wood alcohol} <=35.0 %
141-78-6 Acetic acid, ethyl ester {Ethyl acetate} <15.0 %
111-76-2 Ethanol, 2-Butoxy- {Ethylene glycol n-butyl ether, (a glycol ether)} < 5.0 %
98-56-6 4-Chlorobenzotrifluoride {4-Chloro-.alpha.,.alpha.,.alpha.-trifluorotoluene} < 5.0 %
763-69-9 Ethyl 3-ethoxypropionate {Popanoic acid, 3-ethoxy-,ethyl ester} < 5.0 %
8052-41-3 Stoddard solvent {Mineral spirits; Aliphatic Petroleum Distillates; White spirits} <5.0%

Definitely NOT something you want to put in your alcohol stove. 1/2 acetone, 1/3 (roughly) methanol, then some gasoline like components (Toluene, naphtha, Stoddars Solvent), and some misc. garbage (ethylene glycol n-butyl ether, ethyl acetate, n-butyl ether and the horrible clorobenzotriflouride)

From the MSDS for the Lowe’s “Crown” brand, (typed in by hand) it says:

Acetone 85%-95%
Nonhazardous nonvolatiles “mixture” 5-15%

Last thing I want in my stove is non-volatiles.

In Conclusion

So looks like I’m stuck looking for industrial methanol suppliers, seeing if Amazon ships it for any reasonable price, or using “Line Dryer” at high prices from the auto parts store. I can also hit up a ships chandlery (as many boats have methanol stoves) where I used to buy it by the quart for my boat galley. But they tend to be very expensive as they figure you are rich.

Anyone who goes camping with an alcohol stove needs to know that, in California at least, you can’t just hit up the hardware store for a cheap gallon of methanol any more. Hopefully I can still get it in Florida and other States.

Most importantly, IF you are of the habit of buying “Lacquer Thinner” because you KNOW it’s methanol, it no longer is a safe thing to do unless you look up the MSDS or that particular can actually lists the ingredients.

Also realize that if your Prepper Kit uses an alcohol stove for the “wide availability of fuel” in hardware stores, that’s now a dead end. You MUST find and store the fuel ahead of time.

God I’m coming to really hate all things “Green” and California… I just want them to stop screwing things up.

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About E.M.Smith

A technical managerial sort interested in things from Stonehenge to computer science. My present "hot buttons' are the mythology of Climate Change and ancient metrology; but things change...
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34 Responses to Warning: Lacquer Thinner No Longer Methanol

  1. jim2 says:

    I can get xylene in the central part of the country – might be a Cali thing?

  2. E.M.Smith says:

    Yes, likely just a California (and areas afflicted by being near us in the same distribution area) thing.

    That Amazon jug is exactly what I want… minus the shipping charge that’s 1.6 X the cost of the product ;-)

  3. jim2 says:

    Another possibility, racing fuel …

    https://www.sunocoracefuels.com/fuel-finder

  4. Graeme No.3 says:

    Some industrial chemist is being stupid. You don’t need all those ingredients to thin lacquer. I assume the lacquer you mean in Nitrocellulose based so maybe 3 ingredients. 2-butoxyethanol is a higher boiling component to help the final flow (increase gloss). Stoddart solvent and solvent naphtha are just diluents, presumably the cheapest components.
    Both acetone and ethyl acetate can absorb water on standing exposed to humis air.
    Can’t think why they added 4-chlorotoluenetrifluoride as it sounds expensive and you certainly don’t want it in a burner.

  5. p.g.sharrow says:

    Back when I was in the plastic fabrication business (1990s)we used “Lacquer Thinner” by the 50gallon barrel and got it from a Bay Area reclaim distiller. Basically it was a mix of anything that would melt Lacquer or plastic. I would guess that “Lacquer Thinner”is a catchall name for a light cleaning solvent that would evaporate cleanly…pg

  6. gimply says:

    methyl hydrate. Lacquer thinner specifically for nitrocellulose lacquer. The problem is that it is, most likely, banned for consumer use. Creates a real problem for many finishing applications, historic auto paint (UK 60’s MGs etc.), and fast drying, sandable, rubbable finishes. Try mohawk.

  7. jim2 says:

    Lacquer solvent commonly, at least did at one time, has 5 or more different solvents that evaporate at different rates. This was so in order for the lacquer to lay down smoothly, but still have a reasonable drying time.

  8. agesilaus says:

    You can buy 100% isopropanol from Amazon, I have a bottle I use for contact and other cleaning. Pricey tho. I’m sure I saw Xylenol in both HD and Lowes not too long ago when I was looking for Acetone. I’ve never user lacquer thinner tho so I did not notice that. This in FL.

    Whats the problem in the evil empire anyway? Is their vast population of urban outdoorsmen drinking lacquer thinner now?

  9. Power Grab says:

    When I hear “acetone”, I think of fingernail polish remover. Not every product has it, though.

    Painting fingernails is one of those hot fashion things everybody and their puppy dog is doing.

    Maybe they’re using lots more fingernail polish remover these days?

    I’d like to know why Lubriderm hasn’t had lanolin in it for years. Who’s using all the lanolin?

  10. H.R. says:

    Hmmm… all this explains why my martinis don’t taste the same as they used to. I thought the problem was with the olives.
    ;o)

  11. Ralph B says:

    Don’t they have HEET in CA? The gas additive for when you have water in your gas?

  12. E.M.Smith says:

    @Ralph B:

    Yes, we have HEET. It’s a matter of cost, though. $3 for 12 oz. at the cheap places IIRC, so about $31 / gallon. The gallon of methanol from the hardware store was more like $9 to $12.

    @PowerGrab:

    Yup! That’s where it is widely used.

    Never understood why women would pay Big Bucks for a tiny glass bottle of acetone when you can get a pint of it for about the same money (or less) at the hardware store. Guess it is the price of not taking Chemistry and / or avoiding hardware stores ;-)

    Is there a lanolin shortage? Not enough sheep in America anymore as the lamb is often imported from Australia and New Zealand?

    @Agesilaus:

    I can get 91% propanol at Walmart. I’ve tried it in stoves. It does burn, but soots up your pots something fierce.

    CARB – California Air Resources Board – is a Socialist Nazi organization devoted to all things advocated by THE most radical leftists. So, any (GASP! HORRORS!) Chemical!! MUST BE BANNED if it evaporates at all and does not have a massive corporation empire willing to fight for keeping it. Methanol, being cheap and generic, has little support. Industry likes something that sells for 2 to 3 times as much, so makes the case to keep it as you “must have lacquer thinner” or folks at CARB can’t get nice shiny wood on their yachts and sun decks… /sarc;

    They also pushed (but so far have failed) to ban gasoline lawn mowers and several other things.

    Nice to know I can still get octane booster by the gallon in Florida. Hope to be there in February, so I’ll stock up then. I’ll cruise the hardware stores for Methanol too…

    I get my non-California R-134A out of State too. California has a $10 PER CAN “deposit” and you must return your empty cans. They have a (different) special fitting on the can too, so takes an adapter to use it. The can seals on removal from the harness. They think people regularly vent tons of that expensive gas from not-quite empty cans, so have a recovery facility to suck out the “unused” gas. (I made sure all of it was either IN my car, or that the valve was left open on the harness when removed from the car… then returned the absolutely empty to them…) Now I just get a half dozen cans when I’m out of State.

    @Jim2:

    Back about 1984 I had a 5 gallon squarish “racing fuel jug” and filled it with racing methanol. Used it in some experiments on alcohol fuel and blends. (Yes, I’m a hard core addict to “Funny Fuels” and have been since the ’70s when I first ran “gasohol” and tried some diesel / gasoline blends in my VW. Works, but at about 15% you start getting a lot of smoke ;-) Don’t know if I’ve still got that fuel bottle… I think it gave out and was recycled a few years back.

    Yeah, the race track / shop is the next place to check. As they’ve gone to Ethanol for (some? all?) of the races, I’m not sure how available Methanol is anymore. So time for another refresher… I can use Ethanol, but it puts a light deposit on pans. Not a big bother of soot, but still, not pristine clean like methanol.

    If anyone knows the status of Methanol vs Ethanol in racing fuels, please speak up!

    A good 30 years ago they sold methanol in 1 gallon and 5 gallon metal cans at the race shop. Price was a bit high. To get low price you needed a big bottle and the bulk pump. Thus my getting the bottle.

    FWIW, you can run a Briggs & Stratton lawn mower on methanol for at least 2 years without problems. Did need to crack the fuel screw out a long ways, and on very cold days a bit of starter fluid up the pipe gets it going easier. I was impressed that the carburetor parts didn’t show any corrosion. Burn is really clean and the smell is nicer ;-) Also doesn’t varnish up on standing.

    If I had a choice, I’d have dedicated alcohol engines on small equipment and run them on alcohol. Ethanol or methanol, either one. Gas / alcohol blends suffer phase separation in wet environments on long standing (why “boat gas” in Florida is alcohol free) and I’m not sure how varnish free it is.

    Oh Well. Not a choice I can make.

    SideBar On Price & Availability:

    Yesterday took a run for fuel out to the country. A rural WalMart superstore has gone bat shit crazy with the locking cabinets. Just about everything smaller than a brief case is locked up now. The camping department had ALL the fuels locked up. Even Sterno and lighter fluid. They had the double packs of propane bottles locked up too. Then, on an end cap also had the whole thing full of the same propane double bottle sets, wide open. Go figure.

    But NO “Denatured Alcohol Fuel” at that Walmart. I had gotten some at the local neighborhood sized store before. So now the question is: Is this absence a local choice or is is a trend at all Walmarts?

    Across the street at the Tractor Supply Store I got a pint of said fuel for $5.29 and have put it with the alcohol stoves as “emergency prep” instead of “daily cooker”. It is about a 1 week supply for “heat and eat” meals so a nice balance for most minor Aw Shit events. Each time I’m in Tractor Supply I’ll pick up another can until I have about a gallon (unless I find a cheap gallon size somewhere else first). The can keeps for years.

    I also got a 2 pack of Propane canisters at Walmart for $6.44 or $3.22 a can. That’s a much more economical fuel price. I can refill these with the rig I’ve got, using the large BBQ tank that runs about $4 / gallon to fill, but it’s more bother than I care for and technically forbidden. These are 16 ounce (weight) tanks, so cost is about 3/10 the cost of the alcohol fuel in pints.

    Digging in the garage, I found a very old Weller brand 14 ounce tall skinny propane bottle. Must have been on that shelf for at least 30 years (likely more) as I think I got it when I bought a small welding kit at first move-in. I used MAPP gas with the welder and set this aside. It was still full and fine even after all this time in a hot / cold garage. So, this morning I made coffee and cooked breakfast on it ;-)

    It’s a bit tall and gangly compared to the alcohol burner, but what the heck. The base is about 8 inches and fits tightly to the cylinder so seems stable enough. Besides, after all these years, it’s likely time to let it fulfill it’s destiny ;-)

    I do think it shows just how durable to storage are those propane canisters, though ;-)

    So, for now, my two preferred “daily cookers” are this propane single burner camp stove and the Asian style butane fueled one. Those cans are about $5 for 16 ounces of fuel, so a bit pricier, OTOH, the butane has more BTU / lb so it’s not as pricey as a direct $ compare and is well inside my acceptance band. (I’d still like to find alcohol at about $2.50 / 16 ounces volume… but you use what you can get. Part of why I have several stoves in several fuels…)

    I also picked up 2 “conversion bulbs” for 4 foot fluorescent fixtures to turn them into LED lights at better efficiency. On the ToDo list is to turn my Shop Light into a grow light for some indoor hydroponics. At about $8.88 this was a steal, even if not as plant oriented as the $34 single bulb dedicated plant bulb next to it. Walmart is the only place I’ve seen these and they claim to work with just about any ballast type. We’ll know if a few weeks (months?).

  13. Larry Ledwick says:

    Both Methanol and E98 (fuel ethanol) were available at our local drag strip fuel station this last year.

    Click to access fuel-prices-04-02-19.pdf

    Methanol will still out perform fuel ethanol at the limit so it is not going away any time soon. It is also used as a blend with Nitro-methane the top cars will use both if they want to control power output with fuel blend changes.

  14. E.M.Smith says:

    At ACE Hardware Store they said it was a California ban thing. Nice to know it’s still in racing fuel. I’ll check our local hot rod shops. If need be, I’ll buy another fuel bottle and fill up out of State. I REALLY Like the methanol flame for clean quiet cooking indoors without fuel leakage risks. (A valve leak that puts a few pounds of propane into the air near a pilot light or switch spark can ruin your whole day…)

    I’ve also (re?) discovered that I like cooking over fire more than a switched electric burner with fixed stops. Even if I DO get the house stove fixed, I’m more interested in cooking things over the Trangia and the Asian flat stove… Strange, that.

  15. jim2 says:

    Propanol should burn fine if first evaporated and mixed with air. Like the pressurized Coleman lanterns.

  16. E.M.Smith says:

    Yes But… The Trangia type alcohol stoves, of which I have 4, do NOT have air mixing. Just low pressure vapor going out of holes into air on fire… I don’t really want to toss out 4 stoves that I dearly love because California is run by idiots.

  17. E.M.Smith says:

    Gimply, up thread in a comment here:
    https://chiefio.wordpress.com/2019/12/15/warning-lacquer-thinner-no-longer-methanol/#comment-121226
    that was stuck in moderation due to my not paying attention… says Methanol is important for nitrocellulose lacquer and fine auto finishes, and that I ought to check Mohawk. OK, what’s a Mohawk?

  18. gallopingcamel says:

    In 1970 I started a company that built lasers and streak cameras. The lasers used organic dyes dissolved in solvents such as water, ethanol and methanol.

    For about 90% of our customers, “Semiconductor Methanol” was clearly the best choice. This was methanol with total impurities of less than one part per million at the moment that you opened the bottle and exposed its content to air.

    In our factory nobody was permitted to handle this methanol without wearing gloves. I told my staff that even traces of finger oil would degrade the laser performance. However there was another problem that I mentioned to them that worried me more.

  19. gallopingcamel says:

    Ooops! I pressed the wrong button.

    Methanol is toxic given that it is converted to formic acid in the body which destroys the optic nerve. Thus consumption of tiny amounts of methanol (~10 ml) causes irreversible blindness and larger quantities will kill you by destroying vital organs.

    What is less well known is that you don’t have to drink methanol to suffer irreversible health issues. Methanol is readily absorbed through the skin.

  20. Larry Ledwick says:

    Which it one of several reasons why non-professional racers have moved to E85 and fuel ethanol. Much less toxic if you splash some on your pants leg or on your face

    When a racer starts a nitro fuel engine to warm it up you start it with a few squirts of straight methanol, to get it to light then once it is a bit warmed up you switch the fuel over to the nitro fuel blend.

  21. E.M.Smith says:

    Confirmation it is a CARB Ban. To reach our “targets” under the California air act for emissions.

    https://classiccampstoves.com/threads/california-bans-denatured-alcohol-and.42541/

    Greetings, Fellow Stovies,

    Well, it appears that the “rumor” that CA had banned Denatured Alcohol, are true. The California Air Resources Board, or CARB, has definitely banned Methylated Spirits, and all other Denatured Alcohol fuels!! Looks like the did after a big “teleconference”, this past June!!

    The California Air Resources Board Is Considering Further Reductions in Consumer Products’ VOC Content to Reduce California’s Emissions Under the California Clean Air Act – Bick Law LLP

    Note the list of other things they have considered, or are considering banning:

    “CARB is holding public work group teleconferences to evaluate the following products:

    May 20, 2019 from 10 am to noon — hair finishing spray, no rinse shampoo, permanent dye;
    May 22, 2019 from 10 am to noon — laundry detergent, liquid fabric softener, dish soap, aerosol cooking spray;
    May 28, 2019 from 10 am to noon — air fresheners;
    May 30, 2019, 10 am to noon — nonaerosol general purpose cleaner, nonaerosol general purpose degreaser, aerosol bath and tile cleaner, aerosol glass cleaner; and
    June 2019 (date and time to be determined for an in-person meeting) — disinfectants, charcoal lighter, scented candle, antiperspirant, deodorant, body spray, personal fragrance with 20% or less fragrance, hand sanitizer, body wash, hand cleaner or soap, hand and body lotion or moisturizer, sunscreen, shampoo, conditioner, analgesics, rubbing alcohol, topical anti-fungal products, nail polish, mouthwash, pet care products such as pet litter, insecticide, denatured alcohol, paint remover/stripper, automotive windshield washer fluid and additive, auto body repair products, and brake cleaner.”
    Looks to me as if they have their sights set on just about EVERYTHING!! The City of Berkeley, CA has now passed a law, stating that NO new residents can use Natural Gas!! They want everyone to go “electric”. Seems exceedingly short-sighted, as we have NO Utility Companies that can provide uninterrupted electrical service!!! Black-outs, and Brown-outs are becoming commonplace, in some areas, including ours!!

    “Get an electric car”, they said; “Get a nice electric cooking stove and oven”; they said, “Go Green”, they say: and then they can’t provide the “fuel” to keep all that electric stuff running. Let’s see, no car, no cooking, and no heat for your house. Seems just about perfect…… NOT!!!!

    Democrates have become insane and unhinged from reality.

  22. Larry Ledwick says:

    That’s what happens when you have regulators that have never had a useful job in their lives.
    VOC’s are bad if in excess, but the reason certain chemicals like methyl alcohol are used is that they evaporate quickly without a trace and need only be used in very small amounts.

    I wonder what the high tech electronic folks are using to clean PC boards now. Methanol was the chemical of choice to strip soldering resin off PC boards and contacts?
    That is what we used when I was working in electronics.

    Much cheaper and much less hazardous than chemicals like tri-chorethane or carbon tetra-chloride etc. You might want to see if you can still buy starting fluid at your car parts store too. Di-ethyl Ether is also very volatile (duh that is why it is used), evaporates quickly and has wide flammability limits). Same with cements that set by evaporation (contact cement).
    Likewise acetone and other similar solvents.

    How long before folks are making “solvent runs” to Reno?

    They will probably replace it with some di-toxic-badshit chemical that someone has a patent on that 20 years from now we will find causes liver cancer if you had a beer at lunch and have traces of alcohol in your system (see tri-chlor)

  23. E.M.Smith says:

    It looks like race fuel likely is still available, after a short web search (unless the pages are old).

    And yes, in addition to a year supply of R134a cans, my trips over the border will now include 2 gallons of methanol. And likely a growing list of other products.

    I wonder if someone could sue California under WTO , or some other State under Federal law covering trade in goods…. or maybe as a “taking” without compensation since it make a product unusable…

    I hope some Very Rich Yacht Owners sue… boats use methanol cook stoves as the vspor rises so no boom vapor pool forming, and you can put out any fire with water. Nothing like having a $Millions yacht and being told you can’t cook….

    Oh, and almost all fab is now done offshore or out of State.

  24. gallopingcamel says:

    Electricity did not come to my village in Wales until 1947 when I was ten years old. Before that my home was lighted by candles and oil lamps. When working outside we used Tilley lamps fueled by kerosene under pressure. These were amazingly effective lamps that produced brilliant white light (thorium mantles) for many hours on a single fill. Compared to battery operated flashlights they were awesome!

    Kerosene is hard to ignite so we put a few teaspoons of “Methylated Spirit” in a little cup just below the lamp nozzle to ensure ignition. The trick was to delay delivering the kerosene (by hand pumping) until most of the methylated spirit had been consumed.

  25. E.M.Smith says:

    My Dad, who had an Amish mom, had a Coleman (pumped pressurized mantel) kerosene lamp in addition to the white gas kind. Said they had them on the farm when he was a kid. I got one about a decade back, still new in box, for emegency use if ever needed. I use the white gas / unleaded one most of the time.

    He showed me how to make the kerosene ones work about 1962. Kerosene keeps longer, smells better, and is safer than gasoline. It is now my preferred storage fuel. But I usually still have a can of Coleman fuel white gas…

    I had an Aladdin kerosene lamp we used for a while, till the chimney broke. Still in the garage waiting to be fixed. Makes about a 100 W lamp worth of light!. There’s two normal wick lamps in the lighting box in my office for emergencies. I’d use them fairly often but the spouse doesn’t like it if she smells anything at all… Looks like they are still in business
    http://aladdinlamps.com

    I’ve also got three stoves that run on kerosene. The wick kind are simplest, yet work best. Go figure. The fancy multifuel camping one (MSR I think) makes a racket and soots pots, the Primus is fussy and roars a lot . The wick one is quiet, nearly odorless, and cooks well. Just big.

    I actually like running on kerosene. Though electricity is easier. But I’d not miss much other than electronics if living without it.

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  28. E.M.Smith says:

    Picked up 2 gallons of Methanol and a pint of Ethanol on a trip to Florida. One gallon at a Lowes in Arkansas, another st a Lowes in Florida. A Bit under $17 a gallon. Unreasonable price for the stuff, IMHO. but they had it. Home Depot only had the stove Fuel that’s 50/50 Ethanol, methanol but the same price.

    Also at Lowes in Florida they had a pint of the Eco Stove Fuel. Almost all ethanol from fermentation. Being “green” and all, it is labled not for sale in California…. $8 / pint.

    HEET brand methanol is $1.58 here, so about the same price per gallon as the gallon cans here.

    So now I’m set for alcohol fuel for a very long time.

  29. ossqss says:

    They have the fuel at Wallyworld here for $8 or so. I also was digging into my SHTF corner of the garage and broke out the Coleman dual fuel lantern, which is still NIB, and found 2 Crosman pressure mates in it I don’t even remember acquiring. Those things seem to eliminate any pumping and use my CO2 cartridges for my air guns. Cool bonus. They have the adapter for stoves also.

    Not sure if the picture will show, but here ya go.

  30. ossqss says:

    Crap, forgot the Walmart link above. Can’t tell the exact composition, but regular unleaded (ethanol free) at the Murphy gas station there is less than 3 bucks a gallon.

    https://www.walmart.com/ip/Crown-Camp-Fuel-Gallon/51741744

  31. Power Grab says:

    @ EM re:
    “Looks to me as if they have their sights set on just about EVERYTHING!! ”

    By claiming the reason to ban all these products is to “save the planet”, could it rather be so less petroleum products would be used, thus saving them for the energy “needs” of the GEBs?

  32. E.M.Smith says:

    @Ossqss:

    That’s the white gas fuel for Coleman gasoline type stoves. It is still available in California. What I was buying is methanol alcohol for my Trangia type stoves.

    @Power Grab:

    I suspectvit is just part of the ongoing campaign to drive people into cities. Why make it easy to go into the wilderness camping…

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