Pathogenic Priming & Autoimmune Risks

As your immune system fights off an infection (or an injection…) it can make a mistake and decide to attack some of your cells / parts as well. This effect is increased the more the invader has proteins similar to yours. There’s a load of different auto-immune diseases that this might cause or increase. This is called Pathogenic Priming.

It looks like Chinese Wuhan Covid-19 is a good candidate for pathogenic priming. As is the vaccine for it. It may well take a year or so to find out the degree. FWIW, an Epitope is the part of an antigen (usually a chunk of protein) that your immune system latches on to.

“https: //”

An epitope, also known as antigenic determinant, is the part of an antigen that is recognized by the immune system, specifically by antibodies, B cells, or T cells. For example, the epitope is the specific piece of the antigen to which an antibody binds. The part of an antibody that binds to the epitope is called a paratope. Although epitopes are usually non-self proteins, sequences derived from the host that can be recognized (as in the case of autoimmune diseases) are also epitopes.

Pathogenic priming likely contributes to serious and critical illness and mortality in COVID-19 via autoimmunity

James Lyons-Weiler

• All SARS-CoV-2 immunogenic epitopes have similarity to human proteins except one.

• Roughly one-third of the potentially targeted human proteins (putative autoantigens) are key players in the adaptive immune system.

• The list of viral/human protein matches provides clues on which epitopes or parts of epitopes might be involved in the immunopathogenesis of COVID-19 disease from SARS-CoV-2 infection.

• It also indicates which epitopes might be responsible for autoimmunological pathogenic priming due to prior infection or following exposure to SARS-CoV-2 or relatives following vaccination.

• These epitopes should be excluded from vaccines under development to minimize autoimmunity due to risk of pathogenic priming.

So “all but one” ought to be excluded from vaccines to “minimize autoimmunity due to risk of pathogenic priming” eh? And are they?


Homology between human and viral proteins is an established factor in viral- or vaccine-induced autoimmunity. Failure of SARS and MERS vaccines in animal trials involved pathogenesis consistent with an immunological priming that could involve autoimmunity in lung tissues due to previous exposure to the SARS and MERS spike protein. Exposure pathogenesis to SARS-CoV-2 in COVID-19 likely will lead to similar outcomes.
Immunogenic peptides in viruses or bacteria that match human proteins are good candidates for pathogenic priming peptides (similar to the more diffuse idea of “immune enhancement”). Here I provide an assessment of potential for human pathogenesis via autoimmunity via exposure, via infection or injection. SAR-CoV-2 spike proteins, and all other SARS-CoV-2 proteins, immunogenic epitopes in each SARS-CoV-2 protein were compared to human proteins in search of high local homologous matching. Only one immunogenic epitope in a SARS-CoV-2 had no homology to human proteins. If all of the parts of the epitopes that are homologous to human proteins are excluded from consideration due to risk of pathogenic priming, the remaining immunogenic parts of the epitopes may be still immunogenic and remain as potentially viable candidates for vaccine development. Mapping of the genes encoding human protein matches to pathways point to targets that could explain the observed presentation of symptoms in COVID-19 disease. It also strongly points to a large number of opportunities for expected disturbances in the immune system itself, targeting elements of MHC Class I and Class II antigen presentation, PD-1 signaling, cross-presentation of soluble exogenous antigens and the ER-Phagosome pathway. Translational consequences of these findings are explored.

The pdf can be downloaded free at the link.

Bottom line is that this virus targets the immune system to some degree and vaccines that attack those proteins are very likely to cause an autoimmune problem too.

Innate immunity is far more important in defeating this virus, and focusing on antibody creation to the viral proteins may well be sub-optimal in several ways.

But how common is this autoimmunity thing? Are we talking Zebras or Horses?

Prevalence of autoantibody responses in acute coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)

Angelica Lerma, Anu Chaudhary, Andrew Bryan, Chihiro Morishima, Mark H.Wener, Susan L.Fink

Autoantibodies against nuclear antigens are detectable in 25% of patients hospitalized with acute COVID-19.

• Anti-nuclear antigen antibodies were weakly reactive and most often directed to single antigens.

• Vasculitis-associated autoantibodies were not detected in specimens from patients with acute COVID-19.

• Anti-phospholipid antibodies were infrequently detected in patients with acute COVID-19.

OK, so if you are bad enough off to end up in the hospital, it is about 25%. So you really want to avoid being that bad. This implies tuning up your innate immune system (Vit-D, Vit-C, Vit-E, Zinc, Selenium, etc.) and treating any symptoms very early with the application of zinc ionophores and antivirals (HCQ, Quercitin, Quinine, Ivermectin, Doxycycline, Azithromycin, etc. for example in some combination as directed by your M.D. of choice.)

Could this also explain the tendency for some folks to “go down” in a strong immunity reaction to the vaccine? Not just an anaphylactic shock reaction to the viral protein, but a tendency to start seeing a lot of ‘self’ as invader proteins? Or that Florida M.D. who died a couple of weeks after his vaccination via zero blood platelets in acute thrombocytopenia?

What percentage of those vaccinated who die, or end up with lupus, arthritis, M.S., damaged immune systems, etc. is acceptable? Where are the numbers?

IF, as looks the case, under 10% of folks infected actually manifest disease and of them another 10% go to hospital and even fewer die, are we not looking at a fraction of a percent? So is the autoimmune “side effect” of a vaccine higher or lower than that?


Immunopathology may play a significant role in the pathogenesis of Coronavirus-Induced Disease-19 (COVID-19). Immune-mediated tissue damage could result from development of rapid autoimmune responses, characterized by production of self-reactive autoantibodies. In this study, we tested specimens from acutely ill patients hospitalized with COVID-19 for autoantibodies against nuclear, vasculitis-associated, and phospholipid antigens. Detectable autoantibodies were present in 30% of the patients in our cohort, with the majority of reactive specimens demonstrating antibodies to nuclear antigens. However, antinuclear antibodies were only weakly reactive and directed to single antigens, as is often seen during acute infection. We identified strongly reactive antibodies to nuclear antigens only in patients with a prior history of autoimmune disease. In our cohort, the prevalence of antiphospholipid antibodies was low, and we did not detect any vasculitis-associated autoantibodies. We found similar levels of inflammatory markers and total immunoglobulin levels in autoantibody positive versus negative patients, but anti-SARS-CoV-2 antibody levels were increased in autoantibody positive patients. Together, our results suggest that acute COVID-19 is not associated with a high prevalence of clinically significant autoantibody responses of the type usually associated with autoimmune rheumatic disease.

What about a type not “usually associated with autoimmune rheumatic disease” but perhaps with other modes such as destruction of white blood cells? Eh?

So if you already have an autoimmune issue, it is worse, but for most folks it looks like the level of autoimmune response is not “clinically significant”. Well that’s good to know. BUT, what is the extent of ‘outlier’ cases? As a person with mild autoimmunity issues (arthritis) and a VERY active immune system, am I likely to be the 1 in 1000 that pops the cork? Eh? I’d like to know that before I get an injection of autoimmunity stimulating virus stuff…

There does seem to be a precedent for vaccinations causing “issues”:

Gulf war illness, post-HPV vaccination syndrome
, and Macrophagic Myofasciitis. Similar disabling conditions possibly linked to vaccine-induced autoimmune dysautonomia.

Manuel Martinez-Lavin, Melina Tejada-Ruiz

• All original investigations reported a link between vaccines and Gulf War Illness.

• Post-HPV Vaccination Syndrome and Macrophagic Myofasciitis resemble Gulf War Illness.

• Chronic fatigue, widespread pain and dyscognition characterize these three illnesses.

• Small fiber neuropathy and anti-adrenergic receptor antibodies are linked to Post-HPV Vaccination syndrome.

• Hypothesis: Vaccine-induced autoimmune dysautonomia may be the common underlying mechanism.


More than one-fourth of all Persian gulf war coalition soldiers remain seriously ill. Several epidemiological studies suggest a link between multiple vaccinations at the time of the military operation and the illness development.
Macrophagic Myofasciitis and post-HPV vaccination syndrome are two newer controversial vaccine-related disabling ailments.


1) To systematically review all original articles investigating the association of vaccines with gulf war illness, 2) To discuss gulf war illness, Macrophagic Myofasciitis, and post-HPV vaccination syndrome clinical similarities, 3) To discuss emergent pathogenetic mechanisms proposed for post-HPV vaccination syndrome that may be also relevant to gulf war illness and Macrophagic Myofasciitis.

Results: All original epidemiological studies (n = 11) found a positive association between vaccination and gulf war illness development.
Chronic fatigue, widespread pain and cognitive impairment characterize the three syndromes under discussion. Anti-adrenergic receptor antibodies, dysautonomia and small fiber neuropathy have been recently described in patients with post-HPV vaccination syndrome.

post-HPV vaccination syndrome, Macrophagic Myofasciitis, and gulf war illness analogy suggests that some vaccines or multiple vaccinations in a very short period of time may induce, in susceptible individuals, chronic pain, fatigue and dyscognition. Vaccine-induced autoimmune dysautonomia is hypothesized as the common pathogenetic mechanism for this symptom cluster.
Further research on the presence of small fiber neuropathy, adrenergic receptor antibodies, and abnormal autonomic function tests in the three syndromes under discussion may help to elucidate this hypothesis.

Not quite a “smoking gun” but you can smell the burnt powder from here. Then there’s that small matter of injecting aluminum into your blood bypassing your gut barrier…

Imaging of aluminium and amyloid β in neurodegenerative disease

Christopher Exley, Matthew J.Mold



Recent research has confirmed the presence of aluminium in human brain tissue. Quantitative analyses suggest increased brain aluminium content in a number of neurodegenerative diseases including familial Alzheimer’s disease, congophilic amyloid angiopathy, epilepsy and autism.
Complementary aluminium-specific fluorescence microscopy identifies the location of aluminium in human brain tissue and demonstrates significant differences in distribution between diseases. Herein we combine these approaches in investigating associations between aluminium in human brain tissue and specific disease-associated neuropathologies.

We have used aluminium-specific fluorescence microscopy, Congo red staining using light and polarised light and thioflavin S fluorescence microscopy on serial sections of brain tissues to identify co-localisation of aluminium and amyloid β and tau neuropathology.

A combination of light, polarised and fluorescence microscopy demonstrates an intimate relationship between aluminium and amyloid β in familial Alzheimer’s disease but not in other conditions and diseases, such as congophilic amyloid angiopathy and autism. We demonstrate preliminary evidence of amyloid β pathology, including associations with vasculature and parenchymal tissues, in autism in tissues heavily loaded with aluminium.

We suggest that complementary aluminium-specific fluorescence microscopy may reveal important information about the putative toxicity of aluminium in neurodegenerative and neurodevelopmental disorders.

So is it really a good idea to be repeatedly injecting a load of Aluminum into folks with every vaccination and then requiring they get dozens of them?

We evolved in a world FULL of aluminum. Aluminium is one of the most common elements in most rocks of the world. BUT, it doesn’t like to come out of the rocks and it doesn’t like to cross the gut into our blood. We remove the aluminum from the rocks, then put it into vaccines (as our bodies react to it quite strongly as a Bad Thing) and run around injecting it into everyone.

Somehow this doesn’t sound like a good idea to me.

Especially given that it is now associated with messed up proteins (Amyloid plaque) in messed up brains.

In Conclusion

I am NOT an “Anti-Vaxer”. I’ve had all my shots, as have my kids. I’m very appreciative of the fact that they prevented me from experiencing small pox (yes, I’m old enough to have that vaccination) and a few other diseases; and that they prevented my kids from experiencing the Measles, Mumps and more that I had as a kid.

Vaccines are GOOD.

But we do need to recognize that not ALL vaccines are good and not ALL methods of making them are the best and that SOME folks get killed or damaged by vaccination, so it is not an unvarnished good.

A good friend spent most of her life in a wheel chair as a reaction to the early polio vaccine, for example. In some ways, her life for mine. That kind-of sucks.

What I’m asking for is a sober, considered, and objective risk / reward evaluation. Think about what we are doing and ask is it REALLY the best way and is it REALLY a good cost / benefit ratio? And is there a way to remove some or all of the risks?

Like, for example, asking just how much less effective is a vaccine without aluminum in it, and is that better than the ever increasing levels of Alzheimer’s and Autism? Ought we, perhaps, run an experimental group of folks who do not get aluminum in their vaccinations and get the answers, instead of just assuming we know?

FWIW, I do not plan to get the EXPERIMENTAL Chinese Wuhan Covid-19 vaccination. Why? I have a very active immune system. I have a small tendency to autoimmunity. I also tend to ‘throw off’ viruses quite quickly and easily. Plus I’ve got a supply of the necessary materials to defeat the virus with innate immunity and not proceed to antibody mediated immunity (and potential autoimmunity).

Essentially I’m more willing to be a “guinea pig” for the innate immunity boosters path than for the experimental potentially autoimmunity inducing vaccine path. My body, my choice. (To borrow a phrase from The Left…)

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About E.M.Smith

A technical managerial sort interested in things from Stonehenge to computer science. My present "hot buttons' are the mythology of Climate Change and ancient metrology; but things change...
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61 Responses to Pathogenic Priming & Autoimmune Risks

  1. cdquarles says:

    Seconded, as I am also one who has a somewhat overactive immune system. I got streptococcal illnesses pretty much every year growing up. I got more penicillin shots than most. I got scarlet fever. Fortunately, I never got glomerulonephritis nor rheumatic fever; though my uncle (mom’s younger brother), did get rheumatic fever and survived it. I am on mild immunosuppressants now. I am going to pass on this vaccine, for now.

    That said, I’d like to know how much aluminum and what form it is in before I’d fuss too much about it. After all, I got lots of vaccines with thimerosal in it (an organo-mercury compound).

  2. Nancy & John Hultquist says:

    There is a lot to think about. Good post.
    And, yes, let those of us that have no reactions to vaccines get out in front.
    Others be cautious.
    [Because of age and other stuff, we are eligible for a shot in the Great State of Washington. We have “papers”, but appointments are of the type “We’ll call you!”]
    Way at the top Selenium, as a supplement, is mentioned. Beware tocicityl
    Brazil nuts are a concentrated source — but just one a day — not a handful — is plenty.
    As with Ivermectin, horse people learn about odd things. Much of pasture (hay) is Selenium deficient, so it is added to salt for horses. If you see non-white (brown) salt blocks, such will have minerals including Selenium.

  3. Nancy & John Hultquist says:

    “. . . nor rheumatic fever”
    My wife did. Now has a ‘porcine’ Mitral Valve.
    Rheumatic fever has long term implications, as I suspect other ‘fevers’ do. I am surprised that many folks over the past year were surprised to learn of long term post flu issues.

    More: -from Mayo Clinic – Post-polio syndrome refers to a cluster of potentially disabling signs and symptoms that appear decades — an average of 30 to 40 years — after the initial polio illness.

  4. John Robertson says:

    Nobody seems to remember that fiasco.
    And these vaccines that apparently render zero immunity,certainly fit the bill.

  5. WatchinIt says:

    Related –
    autoantibodies and COVID

    pathogenic priming

    This is really interesting:
    Your immune system includes an antibody evolution algorithm such that after 6 mo. post-COVID infection your antibody responses have “increased potency and an increased range of responses against various protein mutations.”

    And a great quote “As always, the immune system inspires awe and a bit of terror as well.” (from link above).

  6. another ian says:

    “In Peru, Ivermectin cut covid deaths by 75% in 6 weeks: cheap, safe and quite ignored”

  7. Ian W says:

    While you are talking vaccines – John’s Hopkins did a trial with therapeutics like the ‘touted’ HCQ.

  8. YMMV says:

    “As your immune system fights off an infection (or an injection…) it can make a mistake and decide to attack some of your cells / parts as well.”

    One thing about the immune system that always gets glossed over is how the immune system cells can tell friend from foe. They always say something like “it recognizes that is it a foreign object and attacks it”. Okay, but how does it do that? What is the mechanism? It can’t be easy, which means mistakes could be common.

    Those cells are xenophobic! Tear down the wall! Let the foreign bodies in! /sarc

  9. cdquarles says:

    One of the ways is simple daily concentrations. Part of the differentiation mechanism is down-regulation of self-directed response is down-regulation of cells that do so via constant exposure. The catch is that chemistry is involved and folding is not unique, nor are nucleic acid strings unique; particularly the shorter the strings are. Again, every (and I do mean *every*) successful organism alters its local environment to enhance its own survival. Mimicry is a common means of camouflage. The immune system and its response is quite the elaborate chemical dance. Our bodies also have within them the means of their own destruction.

  10. E.M.Smith says:


    Pathogenic Priming is different from ADE Antibody Dependent Enhancement.

    The first one is when your body attacks itself.
    The 2nd one is when the virus uses your antibodies to attack your white blood cells.

    Subtle, but importantly different.

  11. The True Nolan says:

    @E.M.: “Could this also explain (snip) that Florida M.D. who died a couple of weeks after his vaccination via zero blood platelets in acute thrombocytopenia?”

    Apparently he is (was) not alone in his reaction.
    This article says “at least 36”.

  12. philjourdan says:

    The perfect virus. Makes you wonder if not only the Chicoms had a hand in it, but Biden as well. Chicoms release it to destroy the western economy. Check. Big Pharma rushes through and creates 3 Vaxxes! Check. But part of that is to destroy the immune syndrome. Check

    WHich means all those poor slobs are now dependent upon government and Big Pharma and Chicoms to get their annual dose of immunization from bad bugs. Check.

    The perfect virus. I will skip the vaccine

  13. philjourdan says:

    @CD – “Seconded, as I am also one who has a somewhat overactive immune system. I got streptococcal illnesses pretty much every year growing up. I got more penicillin shots than most.”

    Me too! But I have not had strep since high school! And use ABs about once a decade (just did for a gut bacteria, and it worked! My IBSD has gotten much better!)

    Seems we have chewed some of the same ground. at least disease wise.

  14. WatchinIt says:

    Yes, I know – I have a PhD. in physiology and worked in Molecular and Cell Biology for decades. I was providing informational links for some of the many ways antibody responses can go awry.

  15. E.M.Smith says:


    My apologies. Just looked like the link said one thing and the description another.

  16. YMMV says:

    I was scanning the current Covid graphs and noticed that India was the star performer. Deaths are down and almost out. Why?
    This article may not give the right answers, but this one is interesting:

    The third possible reason is the most interesting: the fact that we are not a squeaky clean country like the developed world. A study by the Dr Rajendra Prasad Government Medical College, Kangra (, has found that per capita covid deaths are lower in countries where people are exposed to a diverse range of microbes and bacteria. Another coronavirus study ( has found that low- and lower-middle-income countries with less access to health care facilities, hygiene and sanitation actually have lower numbers of covid deaths per capita. Scientists looked at publicly available data for 106 countries on parameters like demography, prevalence of communicable and non-communicable diseases, sanitation, etc, and concluded that “improved hygiene and higher incidence of autoimmune disorders correlated positively with covid-19 mortality and were among the most plausible factors to explain covid-19 mortality as compared to the GDP of the nations.”

    It goes on to say that in Delhi and Mumbai about 60% have antibodies.

  17. E.M.Smith says:


    Well, when I was a kid we were pretty much up to our eyeballs in crap (sometimes over them…) and I’ve got an immune system that tends to just blow off stuff that lays other people out for a few days. So one data point.

    (I literally mean crap. Swimming in a drain ditch where a cow pasture drained into it and cows upstream sometimes dropped cow pies into it. Swimming in “dredger ponds” full of fish and with birds on top and, well, it’s where they go. Shoveling it out of horse stalls. Having dogs deposit theirs in the playing field. Helping spread various kinds, including from rabbits, on the garden. Literally, in farm country, shit is everywhere. It is, after all, the foundation of making money…)

    One of my sisters made “mud pies” and I was invited (at about 4 yo) to eat one. Well, I only took 2 bites. But still… Then mud fights in the irrigated orchards. Swimming in canals and swallowing ‘whatever’ was in the water. On it goes.

    Being really clean was something you did just before dinner… sometimes…

    Oh, and compost piles. There’s a lot of interesting stuff in compost piles…

    But the survivors are not too squeamish and seem to stay healthy a lot…

    Per India:

    I would suspect more, though, that being outdoors A LOT in a place near the equator matters a whole lot more. Vit-D levels ought to be through the roof.

  18. Terry Jackson says:

    So, I ate my pound of dirt, and likely more, as a kid. Sanitation is not an obsession. but I do shower regularly. Started taking Vitamin C last March, 2 grams daily, and the dental Hygienist was astounded that there was no bleeding on two consecutive deep tooth cleanings, so I stretched them out from 4 months to six. Tractor Supply sells Ivermectin liquid, and other forms. Appointments for vaccine are unobtanium, either “filled for next three weeks” or “No vaccine” or “Call back next week”. Screw it, at 76 and 79 we are done with this silliness. Mask for the store, so I keep one in a pocket, on at door, off at door. Now “they” say it will always be with us, so we will always need masks and social distancing. Duh, was it not obvious it would always be with us and mutating furiously a year ago? It has done one thing, though, as death from the Flu has almost disappeared. Next up will be a requirement for proof of vaccination for all sorts of things, starting with air travel. Previous infection will not count. You need the shot.
    Here is an article wondering why this particular disease gets such special treatment.

  19. Nancy & John Hultquist says:

    @ John Robertson
    Frances Kelsey (FDA) prevented approval of Thalidomide in the USA. Europe was not so blessed. Still, the U. S. was involved, see ..

    A person would have to have been 15 or so in 1960 to be aware of the tragedy, unless there is a personal connection. By about 1980 it became history.
    The chemistry is interesting, but not going there for this post.

  20. another ian says:

    I was just reminded of this


    Slicker’n deer guts on a doorstep!
    Smooth as a filly’s nose!
    Here in this jug’s a miracle drug
    So new that nobody knows!

    Feed it inject it or plant it
    Stick it under an ear.
    Pick any breed, results guaranteed,
    The data’s perfectly clear.

    It’s good for foot rot in gophers,
    Chafing on buffalo thighs,
    Horses with corns, Angus with horns
    And girls with fire in their eyes!

    Goats with a bad disposition,
    Lovers losing their spark,
    Turpentined cats, blindfolded bats
    And dogs that forgot how to bark!

    Friends. Are you troubled with aphids?
    Kids all down with the flu?
    Cattle won’t gain? Needing more rain?
    I’ll tellya what this’ll do;

    Kill all the weeds in your garden,
    Patch up your innertube,
    Leaven your bread, stiffen your thread
    And work out your Rubik’s cube!

    Give you more miles per gallon,
    Relieve your gastric distress,
    If that ain’t enough, this wonderful stuff
    Eats barbecue stains off your dress!

    I see you don’t quite believe me!
    The best I saved for last
    Pay me the cash then quick as a flash!
    See? Oh, I went too fast

    Okay, let’s do it again.
    Watch and you’ll understand.
    Safe and improved, it gently removes
    A five dollar bill from your hand!’

    Baxter Black, “Coyote Cowboy Poetry” (1986 for price relativity)

  21. Pinroot says:

    I have various allergies and I’m concerned about having a reaction to any of the vaccines. On the other hand, I’ve got asthma and COPD so I have respiratory issues that make it a problem for me if I get the virus. Right now, my fear of allergic reactions outweighs my worries about the virus, but my wife has been bugging me to get it. She’s had the first shot (not Pfizer, so I guess it was Moderna) and didn’t seem to have any reactions. I’ll wait for her to get the second shot and see how it goes for her. I’d rather keep up my vitamin strategy and keep my immune system boosted. I would like to get some Ivermectin and have that on hand, so it looks like a trip to my local Tractor Supply is in my future. I’ve already got Betadine on hand, just in case.

    On a somewhat related topic, here’s a peer reviewed paper which alleges that the CDC changed the rules for what qualified as a COVID death (illegally, they claim) which resulted in a 1600% increase in the number of deaths from the virus.

  22. E.M.Smith says:


    This is the 1 L size of what I’ve used on me. I got the 250 ml size for about $20 instead, but it isn’t showing up in a search of their site now. The 250 ml is about 20 doses or 20 weeks (one dose a week is all it takes). So a L is way too much unless you have a lot of friends ;-)

    We’ve discussed it in other articles about dose and how the pour on solvent is just rubbing alcohol. Very convenient to just rub it on and let dry (then to NOT wash that spot for a day…)

    I can’t recommend anything to others, but can report that, for me, it has had zero side effects and at least one early “something” involving scratchy throat and such was gone in 24 hours. I can also say I originally bought mine at Tractor Supply to treat my rabbits. In the process of working out a treatment for them, I managed to slop some fair amount on myself, so already knew “nothing much happened” on exposure to it.

    It is widely used on farms for worming just about everything, but do remember there’s a few dogs varieties and “dutch pattern rabbit” where it can cross the blood brain barrier and cause issues up to and including death of the animal. So for critters, start with a lower test dose if you don’t know which ones are an issue.

    It was quite an interesting thing to adjust the dose for “cattle” down to that for a rabbit. IIRC it was about one drop from an eyedropper for the little ones… Much easier to just say a sheep weighs about 200 lbs… and what else is about that weight…

    On Bunnies:

    Mine were “dutch pattern” but only 1/4 by genetics as they were crosses. Instead of giving them the weekly dose in one go and seeing which grandparent genetics were at work, I started with something like 1/5 of it a day for 5 days. Figuring the slow approach to full dose ought to give me time to halt if a problem started to show up. No Bad Thing happened so they all were able to take full weekly dose once a week after that.

    It was that, or have them die from “Wry Neck” (E. Cunicui), so some chance was better than none…

  23. The True Nolan says:

    @E.M. and Pinroot: I was at the local Feed Co-op today and almost bought that exact same brand of Ivermectin in the 250ml size, but decided I needed to do a bit more research. I’ve seen quite a bit here about Ivermectin, but must have somehow missed the posts you did regarding the pour-on drench, usage and dosage. Would you have a link to that post?

    I don’t know what legal liabilities there are for discussing human usage, but in my case, I am, uh, trying to find dosage for a, uh, chimpanzee, (yeah, that’s the ticket) just about my same size. The bottle says 40 doses per liter for 550 pound cattle — call it 25ml per 550 lb. You say, 20 doses per 250ml bottle, so I am assuming that means 12.5ml per 225lb chimpanzee. Rub it on, let it dry and don’t wash for a day. Repeat once a week for a prophylactic. (Maybe every three days or so if showing any symptoms?) Just checking my understanding. Does that sound about right?

    By the way, the Co-op had multiple varieties of Ivermectin, pour on, paste, pills too, I think. I was very tempted by the apple flavored paste; sounds yummy! But I noticed that they also had several types of Fenbendazole, another anti-parasitic with reported anti-cancer properties. Side note: My father died many years ago from complications after multiple surgeries for stomach ulcers. Now we know that ulcers are the result of bacterial infection and the needed antibiotics were available for decades but never used for ulcers. It makes me wonder how many potential anti-cancer (or anti-viral) drugs are out there right now, easily available, but not officially recognized or prescribed. The US “declared WAR on cancer!” half a century ago — and today it is still the number two killer. Like so many wars, I cannot help but wonder if there is just a lot more profit in waging a war than there is in winning a war.

    And just in case I don’t say it often enough, thanks for a really wonderful, thought provoking, and educational blog site. Thanks, E.M.!

    (OK, OK, thanks to all the input from the rest of you out there as well.)

  24. E.M.Smith says:


    One can NOT give medical advice to another, nor can one recommend unapproved treatments.

    To the best of my knowledge, it is perfectly legal to say “what silly thing I did to myself” especially if accompanied by “Don’t do this at home, obey your M.D., the CDC and FDA are God Like and MUST be OBEYED!!!” or something similar.

    It is also OK to link to approved medical literature and report what is in it.

    So what I did for ME and nobody else was in fact 10 ml despite the exact “sheep equivalent” being 12.5 ml for my 225 lbs. I figured some would soak into their fur and I don’t have fur (well, not much ;-) This is applied at most once a week as it has a long half life. For deworming, it is applied to animals again after 2 weeks some times as you want the eggs to hatch and any re-infestation to be in a sensitive stage.

    I also consulted my PDR and got dose, toxicity, and more before I did anything with me, and then checked my math 3 times. (Benefit from having done it with the Bunnies was being familiar with the whole process…) Human dose was very similar to sheep dose modulo that human dose was oral and sometimes for different diseases (so sometimes they went higher dose on harder to kill things IIRC).

    I think prior discussions where in one of these links:

    Buying it with Florida Friend:

    In discussions here:

    Some on Fenbendazole:

    A bit more on Bunnies:

    I think that covers it, but if not, it will be in the 51 articles tagged with “Covid”:

    BTW, on the Vet Med show, Dr. Pol, he carries a gallon jug in the jeep and in at least one episode with a horse just mobbed with blood suckers, simply poured a bunch on it’s back without measuring. It isn’t exactly a big hazard precise measure required drug… I’d guess he dumped about a cup on.

    It’s called a “drench” for a reason ;-)

    Also remember they expect this to be handled by the gallon (or 5 gallons…) by “ranch hands” of various levels of education, skill, and care… Yeah, the package gives all the usual “gloves ventilation etc. etc.” nags, but really, most folks will be kinda like Dr. Pol. Pour on the right amount by eyeball in a hurry ’cause the animal is in distress. I got my first exposure as “slop” from treating animals…

  25. The True Nolan says:

    @E.M. “One can NOT give medical advice to another, nor can one recommend unapproved treatments.”

    Isn’t it nice living in the Land of the Free where we have the right to freedom of speech? Pardon the intrusion of a bot of sarcasm. Speaking more seriously, the various links and information are much appreciated and do quite a lot to fill in some gaps in my knowledge. When I open my primate laboratory that will be a big help in treating the animals.

    Rambling just a bit but sticking to the nature of medical treatments. It has been a long time since I read Herodotus, the reputed “Father of Historians”, but I seem to recall one of his stories from ancient Babylon. The medical professionals in Babylon had become so crooked, so greedy, and simultaneously so ineffective that the King simply outlawed all doctors. “Get out of town! Doctors are forbidden!” Instead, a new rule was instituted. If anyone has been sick long enough for it to be a concern, the sick person’s family would carry him on his bed to the edge of the market square to spend the day. By law, anyone who passed his bed was required to ask, “what is wrong?” Nine times out of ten, after hearing the problem, the passerby would just say “beats me, good luck with that!” But every so often a passer would say “Yeah, I had the same thing last year. I did so-and-so (insert cure here — I ate a lot of apples. I fasted. I just waited four days and it went away.) Regardless, by the end of the day, the sick person had a pretty good idea of what seemed to work and what didn’t. According to Herodotus, the end result was that the general level of health improved somewhat by getting rid of the doctors. But of course nothing lasts forever and eventually the people of Babylon let the doctors return…

    I have not checked, but I bet there is some internet equivalent of the “Babylon Market Square”.

  26. YMMV says:

    Horse IVM. There are at least three tasting IVM videos on YouTube. Don’t believe the apple flavor; they agree you don’t eat this for the taste.

    Merck, maker of IVM, has a billion dollars or so riding on developing a new drug for Covid, so they are poo-pooing their cheap IVM drug.

  27. H.R. says:

    Early in the “figuring out what to do” stage here, IIRC someone posted about Ivermectin being available in pill form for humans to get rid of worms and such.

    It seems reasonable to me that if you have dogs or other pets and they need treated for worms, there’s a good chance that the pet owner will pick up the parasite as well and should get treatment for the parasite. So I think that’s where some drug maker made up pills in human-sized dosages.

  28. A C Osborn says:

    Pinroot says: 10 February 2021 at 9:01 pm
    “I have various allergies and I’m concerned about having a reaction to any of the vaccines. On the other hand, I’ve got asthma and COPD so I have respiratory issues that make it a problem for me if I get the virus.”

    You may be OK if your nebulizer or inhaler use Budesonide
    See these

  29. David A says:

    Regarding India, yes, strong immunity to disparate illnesses can lead to string immune system.

    Yet I found the article lacked obvious other orthogonal reasons for India’s success. Annually 70 to 100 million regularly receive HCQ, and it was increased due to Cov19. Ivermectin was and is also heavily promoted in India. India promoted vitamin D and Sunshine as an effective immune booster. It is looking possible that India will have no 2nd or 3rd wave.

  30. Pinroot says:

    @EM – Thanks for the info on the Ivermectin, I was wondering about a brand name and how to use it. I probably would have had a drink instead of rubbing in on. The “absorbtion” method makes me wonder if they’re using something like DMSO as a sort of “carrier”, I’ll have to look into it a little more. BTW, I looked on Amazon for ‘drench’ which you mentioned a while back and got a lot of hits, so now that I have a better idea of dosage and application, I can make a more informed choice.

    @ACOsborn – Thanks for the video. I use a steroidal inhaler (when I can afford it; even with ‘insurance’ they’re really expensive, ~$300/month). I have a rescue inhaler and a nebulizer, but they both use Albuterol, not Budesonide. I know that there’s an over the counter type of inhaler (Primatene was the brand name, I believe) but I’m not sure if it uses budesonide (I know it does not use albuterol). I did read about the inhaler in the past day or so, but assumed it used albuterol, not budesoinde, thanks for pointing that out. I’ll have to look more into that as well.

  31. E.M.Smith says:


    The solvent in the drench I referenced is isopropanol, i.e. rubbing alcohol. No DMSO required.

    While we like to think of our skin as a hard barrier, and it can be to some things, it is really rather porous and all sorts of stuff passes right through it. Thus there being a large number of “contact poisons” along with various drugs that just soak right in. Also why nutritional oils soak in. (Also why petroleum based cosmetics and some oils soak in and that, IMHO, is very much plus non-good… Olive Oil good, petroleum grease Vaseline not so much…)

    So, IMHO, the rubbing alcohol is there just to make the volume large enough to be easy to measure and spread over a large area, then it just evaporates leaving the ivermectin molecule to soak in on its own.

    Do NOT drink it, as isopropanol is not good for tummies or metabolisms…

    Yet you can get an oral form as things soak in through the intestinal wall a bit easier than through the skin. This can be a paste (like for horses) or pills (for people). I chose the “drench” over the horse paste for the simple reason that I didn’t want to taste “whatever” and as I was experimenting (years ago, another link I think I left out, but the posting is here somewhere… I had ‘failure to heal’ spots on the skin that were likely a parasite of some sort and the local Kaiser was, um, ‘un-helpful’… but now they are gone. Basically, I’d “done me” once long before Chinese Wuhan Covid for a very different issue on the skin.) and I did want it strongest on the skin. Also I wanted to be able to wash some amount of it off, rapidly, if things started going wrong.

    I was also familiar with drench from farm use… but we didn’t have horses…

    When you are treating a whole herd of cows or sheep, getting each one to swallow a bit of goo is a PITA, while having them walk past a guy with a sprayer who hits the button and drenches them with a measured dose is easy.

    Horse paste is sized for a 1000 lb animal, so the volume / dose is smaller. That makes measuring harder. OTOH, you get better absorption. I doubt it really matters.

    The key bit is mg of ivermectin per kg of body weight. It’s in one of the links above. That’s mg of active ingredient, not the prepared drench or paste. The mg / volume is listed on the packages.


    In about 4th grade, out on the playground one day, one kid was feeling a bit sick…

    And proceeded to barf up a load of worms onto the sidewalk next to the play area…

    Needless to say a whole lot of us other kids were really grossed out. (I went over and got a good look at them squirming…) The teacher came over, looked at it, said something like “Oh, Timmy has FOO worms. Call the nurse.” and “Timmy” was taken to the nurses office to be sent {home | doctor | wherever} to be fed “wormer” pills. (IIRC that was pre-ivermectin date). The Janitor was called to bleach the barf area and clean it up.

    “Timmy” returned to class a week or so later, free of worms and feeling much more energetic. IIRC he lived outside of town on a farm (as did about 1/2 the kids). Also I think there was a Q&A session with all the other kids about how they felt – screening for anyone else with ‘low energy’ or queasy feelings…

    On another occasion one of our dogs had some kind of short worm come crawling out his butt… Again, gross. We wormed our dogs, twice…

    This caused me to “look into it”. Turns out there are a LOT of parasitic worms. Whole families of them. Some you eat. Some water born. Some spend part of their life cycle in snails. There’s even one in India and other tropical places that burrows in through your bare feet if you walk in the forest. (So despite my barefoot preference, I’ll not go unshod in the tropics…) Even a “liver fluke” in tropical areas that likes to live in cattle, so make sure any beef you eat in the tropics (including Hawaii or Brazilian beef…) is well cooked and NOT “very rare”… Oh, and swimming in tropical water is usually a Very Bad Idea as a lot of water born parasitic worms are looking for a home. Not just “river blindness”… Some others are delivered by insect bites, not just Malaria…

    Nice chart of major groups in here:

    Anyone who has kept animals on a farm knows that just about every animal they have can get a load of some kind or other of worms. Including the workers. So the animals are typically “wormed” once or twice a year. Pasture needs to be kept free of eggs or the problem just returns rapidly, so a herd known to have been infested needs to have more frequent treatments until all the eggs in the pasture have hatched and been killed too. Keeping out wild animals also is important to prevent re-contamination of the pasture (why herders are not really fond of deer and elk in the pasture… among other reasons.) I knew some folks who, when worming their herd, would just dose themselves too. A few “Timmy-s” in the family and you get converted I guess…

    I think I was “wormed” 3 or 4 times as a kid on a “maybe exposed, just do it” basis. Farm kids. It’s a thing…

  32. cdquarles says:

    Don’t forget tapeworms, largely spread by eating undercooked meat, whether domesticated or wild game. (Includes fish)

  33. another ian says:

    Priming of a different kind


  34. another ian says:

    And a general thought

    I was reflecting on a photo of the fence etc left behind in Washington DC from the inauguration.

    Anyone aware of a leftist event where they actually cleaned up after themselves?

  35. Paul, Somerset says:

    Nicotine has anti-parasite properties, of course, just like Ivermectin. It might explain why smokers are less affected by the Covid virus.
    I gave up tobacco years ago, but I’ve been making sure I have plenty of tins of pineapple rings in pineapple juice in the cupboard, as well as packets of pumpkin seeds. After all, those also have anti-parasite properties, so may well also do as substitutes for Ivermectin. They can’t do any harm in any case, and I do enjoy eating them anyway!
    By the way, I loved this story about finches in Mexico City lining their nests with cigarette butts to kill parasites:

  36. philjourdan says:

    @YMMV says:
    10 February 2021 at 3:12 am

    ANd that is why I do not use hand sanitizer, I do not take AB for colds and flus, and I do not sterilize everything I come in contact with! The more germs your body has to fight off, the stronger it gets, If your body never has to fight off germs, it does not learn how.

    CDC, WHO and Democrats are killing Americans by the thousands.

  37. philjourdan says:

    @Terry Jackson says:
    10 February 2021 at 3:58 am

    Why was it not obvious? Because the new generations are about as obtuse as you will ever find. I told one of the Millennials why the riots occurred (no, it was not about black lives or Floyd – it was about the lockdowns). His response? Pshaw! You do not know what you are talking about.

    Yea, I am so clueless I have predicted every riot and continue to do so. We really do have a dumbing down of America. Actually the entire planet.

  38. philjourdan says:

    @EMS and Pinroot – Ivermectin. Apparently some country doctors are NOT waiting for the CDC to bless things. My SIL (I wrote about her a month ago) got it from her doctor. But she lives in cattle country, so access is easy. She had a rough bought of the WuFlu, but she is fine.

    Ivermectin. Especially if you do not want the vaccine!

  39. philjourdan says:

    @EM – Ewe! Worms! I guess I will never go to the tropics as I am a barefoot boy as well.

    But I am fully aware of all sorts of worms. Even the ones down in SA that – ah hummmm – crawl into a specific male orifice? And I am not talking a trans pretender male either.

  40. H.R. says:

    another ian: “Anyone aware of a leftist event where they actually cleaned up after themselves

    Ummmmm…… no.

    It oughta get fixed using Other People’s money.

    Somebody…. (who?) oughta do sumpthin’ about that.

    I’m so green, I don’t have time to pick up my granola bar wrapper, plastic water bottle, or cigarette butts. Let the non-greenie, non-Gaia-worshipping peons come in after I’m gone and pick up after me.

    Ummmm….. no again.

    The progressive, greenie, Marxist-Commie, brain-rotted yobs need to go back to kindergarten, which they obviously flunked, and practice putting away the toys they used. Obviously they were absent the day they were supposed be taught to pick-up and clean-up after themselves.

  41. E.M.Smith says:

    @Paul, Somerset:

    I grew a small short and 10x more nicotine ‘rough’ tobacco around my garden for many years. Leaf miners could not resist the big fat leaves and deposited lots of eggs… that all died before hatching ;-)

    My Dad was a smoker. When we went fishing, mosquitoes would mob me, and avoid him. When any did come near, he’d blow a bit of smoke at them and they left of dropped. I envied him that, right up until he died of lung cancer…

    I’d make a slurry of the tobacco plant leaves and spray it on things that needed a bit more insect death. Worked a champ ;-)

  42. Pinroot says:

    @EM – thanks for all the info on Ivermectin, it is much appreciated!

    Re: Liberals cleaning up after themselves – This is what is known as ‘job creation’. Several years there was a big protest on an Indian reservation about some pipeline or something. All the eco-warriors showed up to ‘lend their voices’ or whatever. When they left there were literal tons of trash and garbage to clean up, thus creating jobs for the clean-up crews (the left doesn’t know about the broken window fallacy).

    Mosquitoes – There is something about cigarette smoke they don’t like. When my wife smoked and we worked in the yard, they never bothered her. There is something about me they just love. She used to suggest I start back smoking to keep them at bay, but it took a LOT of work for me to kick that habit (it’s been 28 years now, nicotine free) so there was no way that was happening. Once she quit (about 7 years ago) she lost her “mosquito immunity” and now they love her as much as they love me :)

  43. E.M.Smith says:

    The smoke particles block insect breathing passages on their abdomen while the nicotine twigs out their nervous system and results in death. That’s why bugs avoid it.

  44. The True Nolan says:

    @E.M. “the nicotine twigs out their nervous system and results in death”

    There is a lot of commonality between insecticides (natural and synthetic) and military style nerve gas. Pretty much anytime you see a report that someone has discovered traces of poison gas manufacture in the evil nation of Terror-stan, just wait a week or so and chances are, somewhere tucked away on page 14 there will be a very small article that says “Remember that nerve gas we discovered? Turns out it was an agri-chemical factory making insecticides.” I remember at least three such incidents during the 2003 war on Iraq. And while a lot of natural plant compounds just outright kill bugs we humans seem to get a more pleasant reaction. Coffee! Hot peppers! Death to bugs, but to me they are yummy!

  45. E.M.Smith says:

    Yeah, the distance between nerve agent for people vs bugs is small.

    We have two neurotransmitters, they have one of them. We are only critically dependent on the common one, inside the brain. It comes down to: Does our blood brain barrier keep it out, or not? Then dosage.

    “Organophosphate” is the magic search term.

  46. cdquarles says:

    Organophosphate is too broad of a term. What are organophosphates? They include: cyclic adenosine monophosphate, cyclic guanosine monophosphate, adenosine diphosphate, adenosine triphosphate, nicotine adenine dinucleotide phosphate and many, many more.

  47. E.M.Smith says:


    Yet “Organophosphate poison” is the term of art used, so Organophosphate is the missing magic token that gets you to all the information. So yes, unadorned it includes things like ATP, DNA, RNA, and flame retardants. But even if you just search on “organophate” alone and read the wiki you get:

    Today, organophosphates make up about 50% of the killing agents in chemical pesticides.

    Organophosphate pesticides (OPPs), like some nerve agents, inhibit acetylcholinesterase, which is broadly essential for normal function in insects, but also in humans and many other animals. OPPs affect this enzyme in varied ways, a principal one being through irreversible covalent inhibition, and so create potentials for poisoning that vary in degree. The brain sends out neurotransmitters to the nerve endings in the body; organophosphates disrupt this process from occurring. This chemical, organophosphate works by disrupting the enzyme acetylcholinesterase. Acetylcholinesterase break down the acetylcholine neurotransmitter, which sends out signals to other nerve endings in the body.

    For instance, parathion, one of the first OPPs commercialized, is many times more potent[clarification needed] than malathion, an insecticide used in combating the Mediterranean fruit fly (Med-fly) and West Nile virus-transmitting mosquitoes. Human and animal exposure to them can be through ingestion of foods containing them, or via absorption through the skin or lungs.

    The human and animal toxicity of OPPs make them a societal health and environmental concern;[10] the EPA banned most residential uses of organophosphates in 2001, but their agricultural use, as pesticides on fruits and vegetables, is still permitted, as is their use in mosquito abatement in public spaces such as parks. For instance, the most commonly used OPP in the U.S., malathion, sees wide application in agriculture, residential landscaping, and pest control programs (including mosquito control in public recreation areas). As of 2010, forty such OPPs were registered for use in the U.S., with at least 73 million pounds used in one time period in agricultural and residential settings. Commonly used organophosphates have included:

    methyl parathion

    Studies have shown that prolonged exposure to OPPs—e.g., in the case of farm workers—can lead to health problems, including increased risks for cardiovascular and respiratory disease, and cancer. In the case of pregnant women, exposure can result in premature births. In addition, permanent damage to the brain’s chemical make-up, and changes in human behavior and emotion can occur to the fetus in pregnant women.

    Organophosphate pesticides degrade rapidly by hydrolysis on exposure to sunlight, air, and soil, although small amounts can be detected in food and drinking water.[citation needed] Organophosphates contaminate drinking water by moving through the soil to the ground water.[ When the pesticide degrades, it is broken down into several chemicals. Organophosphates degrade faster than the organochlorides. The greater acute toxicity of OPPs results in the elevated risk associated with this class of compounds (see the Toxicity section below).

    Nerve agents
    Main article: Nerve agents
    Early pioneers in the field include Jean Louis Lassaigne (early 19th century) and Philippe de Clermont (1854). In 1932, German chemist Willy Lange and his graduate student, Gerde von Krueger, first described the cholinergic nervous system effects of organophosphates, noting a choking sensation and a dimming of vision after exposure on themselves, which they attributed to the esters themselves. This discovery later inspired German chemist Gerhard Schrader at company IG Farben in the 1930s to experiment with these compounds as insecticides. Their potential use as chemical warfare agents soon became apparent, and the Nazi government put Schrader in charge of developing organophosphate (in the broader sense of the word) nerve gases. Schrader’s laboratory discovered the G series of weapons, which included Sarin, Tabun, and Soman. The Nazis produced large quantities of these compounds, though did not use them during World War II. British scientists experimented with a cholinergic organophosphate of their own, called diisopropylfluorophosphate, during the war. The British later produced VX nerve agent, which was many times more potent than the G series, in the early 1950s, almost 20 years after the Germans had discovered the G series.

    After World War II, American companies gained access to some information from Schrader’s laboratory, and began synthesizing organophosphate pesticides in large quantities. Parathion was among the first marketed, followed by malathion and azinphosmethyl. The popularity of these insecticides increased after many of the organochlorine insecticides such as DDT, dieldrin, and heptachlor were banned in the 1970s.

    Structural features
    Effective organophosphates have the following structural features:

    A terminal oxygen connected to phosphorus by a double bond, i.e. a phosphoryl group
    Two lipophilic groups bonded to the phosphorus
    A leaving group bonded to the phosphorus, often a halide

    Fine tuning
    Within these requirements, a large number of different lipophilic and leaving groups have been used. The variation of these groups is one means of fine tuning the toxicity of the compound. A good example of this chemistry are the P-thiocyanate compounds which use an aryl (or alkyl) group and an alkylamino group as the lipophilic groups. The thiocyanate is the leaving group.

    So I’d assert it is the minimal effective clue / pointer.

  48. another ian says:

    A new term for this morning

    “Wuhan Flu: The Expendables”

  49. A C Osborn says:

    EM, I don’t suppose you have seen this study.
    It is looking at the Antibody gain of Vaccination vs natural Antibodies from the virus.

    Click to access 2021.01.29.21250653v1.full.pdf

    They vaccinated people who have already had the virus.
    Normal response to single Vaccination at 21-24 days: 1,075, after second dose 1,399.

    Response with previous COVID patients after single Vaccinatio at 13-16 days: 25,927 and after second dose 22,509.
    Of course they are touting this as a good thing.

    A 20 fold increase, I wonder how close is that to Pathogenic Priming?

    ps another succesful drug trial nobody mentions, Proxalutamide a nonsteroidal antiandrogen, trial NCT04446429

  50. philjourdan says:

    Vaccines are good. But this whole WuFlu hoax is not good. I was going to get the vaccine, but now I am not. (and not because of this article – I read enough to know that the government is lying to us through their false teeth!).

  51. E.M.Smith says:

    @A.C. Osborn:

    No, I’d not seen it. Don’t really know what numbers that big mean.

    What I do know is that the numbers are way out of line with what the body wants to do with this kind of virus. That this kind of virus is known to have “issues’ with antibodies. And that generally I’d rather work with the body preferences than crowbar whack them.


    I’ll consider the vaccine in about a year. Maybe 2. Once we know what it really does. Until then, I’m good with prophylactic approaches and reserve Ivermectin.

  52. philjourdan says:

    @EMS – I doubt I will be alive in 2 years. But if so, I will reject it then as well. I was all gung ho on getting it. Until the other shoe dropped.

  53. The True Nolan says:

    @ E.M. “I’ll consider the vaccine in about a year. Maybe 2. Once we know what it really does.”

    Not a bad plan IF (big if) you can actually determine “what it really does”. We know with some high level of metaphysical certainty that The Powers That Be are very happy to lie to us about COVID, about its treatment, about its statistics, and about it virulence. We know that they have no problem with instituting policies which increase deaths rather than decrease deaths, and then lie that they are responsible. If we want to “know what it (the ‘vaccine’) really does” we will need to do some serious digging because the official numbers sure can’t be relied upon.

  54. E.M.Smith says:


    I intend to just note the number of people I know who have sudden onset autoimmune problems, odd increased sickness or death from Covid-redux, or have fertility problems; plus any other odd talk about unexpected sicknesses.

    IF the vaccine has Bad Issues, it ought to show up in talk at church and other gatherings; even just the obits and condolences requested and the ‘family foo needs help as Bar is in hospital’ events.

    I don’t intend to rely on “official statistics”…

  55. cdquarles says:

    Those are some very high antibody titers, though that can be seen after a 2nd exposure to a previous infectious agent. For some, yes, autoimmune sequelae can happen (also known to happen after natural infections) with that kind of response.

  56. YMMV says:

    Just guessing, when all is taken into account, the lockdowns will have caused the most deaths, the virus second, and the vaccines a distant third. The press (so far) is not hiding deaths and other complications coming from the vaccines. Oh, those deaths from covid also include those that could have been prevented by the information that the press did hide because it wasn’t official.

    IVM is probably the safest prevention. If they would do some big tests maybe we could also learn exactly how effective it is.

    We won’t know exactly how safe the vaccines are until masses are vaccinated and much time passes and we find out the unknown unknowns.

    I am hoping Novavax gets approved quickly. It does not put any mRNA or DNA into your body, so it is less experimental.

  57. E.M.Smith says:


    I’m less concerned about vaccine deaths as about long term debilitating effects.

    BTW, my expectation is that vitamins, zinc, sun and ionophores is the least problematic prevention, while Ivermectin is best for suppression or treatment if exposed. That’s the belt and suspenders approach I’m taking. Immune support especially of innate immunity first. Antiviral if cause to suspect exposure.

  58. YMMV says:

    “I’m less concerned about vaccine deaths as about long term debilitating effects.”

    That’s a problem. Deaths are easier to count. Common short term devastating effects, someone might notice. That’s three things. Not common, “it might not have been caused by the vaccine”. Not devastating, “you’re just imagining it”. Long term, “oh, we didn’t know”.

    To be fair, we don’t know the long term debilitating effects of the covid virus either.
    Don’t trust a virus. They do sneaky things.

    And then there’s the immune system itself. Sometimes it does strange things. Take allergies.
    The immune system reacts to some things, sometimes violently, that it should not react to.
    Why? Who knows? Especially bad if the thing it is reacting to is yourself.

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