Vaccine Tyranny Comes To The USA / NYC

NYC mandates proof of vaccination for many indoor settings
By Nolan Hicks and Sam RaskinAugust 3, 2021 |

New York City is mandating proof of COVID-19 vaccination to enter certain indoor businesses — including all indoor restaurants, entertainment venues and gyms, Mayor Bill de Blasio announced Tuesday.

“It’s time for people to see vaccination as necessary to living a good and full and healthy life,” de Blasio said during his daily press briefing.

“This is crucial, because we know that this will encourage a lot more vaccination.”

The program, which de Blasio dubbed the “Key to NYC Pass,” makes New York the first major US city to create such a mandate, and marks a significant escalation of the city’s efforts to curb the recent uptick in COVID-19 cases driven by the Delta variant. The initiative will launch on Aug. 16, the mayor said.

“It will require vaccination for workers and customers in indoor dining, in indoor fitness facilities, indoor entertainment facilities,” he said from City Hall. “The only way to patronize these businesses indoors is if you’re vaccinated.”

“If you want to participate in society fully, you’ve got to get vaccinated,” de Blasio added.

Enforcement will begin on Sept. 13, following a public service announcement campaign, de Blasio said. Entry will be denied to anyone without a shot.

“If we’re going to stop the Delta variant, the time is now,” said the mayor. “This is going to make clear, you want to enjoy everything great in this summer of New York City? Go get vaccinated.”

Going to stop a variant caused by vaccination that thrives in the presence of vaccination as those vaccinated have low symptoms while they shed massive amounts of the virus. Yeah, right, sure /sarc;

My answer is really simple: Just avoid New York City (and State most likely). They have nothing to offer me anyway. Me? “If we’re going top stop this Medical Tyranny, the time is now!” Just Say NO, in fact Hell No! “My body, my choice.”.

If I do not own and control the inside of my body what can I own or control?

The program is modeled after the vaccine passport programs rolled out in France and other European countries, officials said.

De Blasio said City Hall is finalizing the regulations, including if children younger than 12 years old with vaccinated parents will be allowed to dine indoors. Additionally, the mayor said the city is examining expanding the vaccine proof requirement to other indoor activities, such as shopping.

The specifics of the new policy will be finalized by the week of Aug. 16, de Blasio said.

Like the vaccine passport was greeted with open arms in France…

Tim Pool has a really good rant on it:

Me? “I’m going to Disneyworld” ;-) Or at least Florida, where folks are still free. Had a great time there a few weeks back. Three different bars, a few restaurants, nobody with a mask. Zero problems. I was using a prophylactic treatment that cost me about 2 ¢ / week though… and with near zero risk.

FWIW, mask mandates return to the San Francisco Bay Area, despite the fact that they didn’t work the last few dozen times it was reqired:

Seven counties in the Bay Area adopted the new orders, including Silicon Valley’s Santa Clara and San Mateo, along with the city of Berkeley. The mandate takes effect Tuesday at 12:01 a.m.

The region joins areas including Los Angeles and Washington in instituting more stringent mask rules following a rapid jump in cases, while the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has updated its guidance to urge all people to wear facial coverings indoors. In New York, Mayor Bill de Blasio said Monday that the city will strongly recommend masks in indoor settings, but stopped short of a mandate.

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About E.M.Smith

A technical managerial sort interested in things from Stonehenge to computer science. My present "hot buttons' are the mythology of Climate Change and ancient metrology; but things change...
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169 Responses to Vaccine Tyranny Comes To The USA / NYC

  1. John Howard says:

    …from one stupid plan to another. I am glad that I do not live in a Democrat state…

  2. rhoda klapp says:

    Where did the mayor get the right to impose that rule?

  3. Steve C says:

    Rhoda – From “above”, of course. Surely you weren’t expecting any sort of democratic (not Democratic) mandate?

    The EU, stout G.E.B.s to a man, were making plans for just this over a year before anyone outside the charmed circle had any inkling that there was going to be be a “virus problem” to enable it. Note too that their plan will be in place by next year:

    Click to access 2019-2022_roadmap_en.pdf

    It is ALL connected. We live in very ugly times.

  4. Ossqss says:

    Soooo, why is there no discussion/designation/reprieve for the millions that have formally recovered from the virus and now qualify for natural immunity? WOM shows the US has 30 million who were tested and documented as recovered. That does not include millions of others who never got tested, but were exposed and shrugged it off. My bet is that nearly everyone in the US has been exposed after 18 months. The persistent insistence of jabbing the recovered and immune with something to supposedly protect them from what they successfully already beat, indicates there is more to this story.

  5. E.M.Smith says:


    I’ve driven across the country three times and flown once. I’ve spent weeks “on the road” in gas stations, sit down full service restaurants, bars with a crowd, snack shops and more. I’ve been exposed to many many thousands of “my closest strangers” (upwards of 100k at least). All with no mask and little distancing. I’ve been shopping in our local stores in a “hotbed of Covid” and “locus of the Delta Variant” also mask free.

    The odds I’ve not been exposed, multiple times, approach zero.

    I’ve had “snivels” 3 or 4 times. Each time driven off with Ivermectin or just via my natural immunity (in the early days before I started doing the ivermectin thing). I’m pretty darned certain I have zero risk at this point; other than from a bad vaccine reaction.

    In short, I think I’m the “Poster Child” for your case / example.

    I really really have to wonder what in hell they expect to gain from injecting me with an Experimental Elixer…

  6. H.R. says:

    It seems we have a virtue signaling restaurant in town. They will be requiring proof of vaccination to get in.

    This is all on them. There are no *ahem* suggestions or edicts from any government agency that require businesses to check for proof of vaccination.

    The reporter interviewed the owner of the restaurant and then read the quotes to the camera. The camera panned the EMPTY restaurant a time or two.

    To be fair, I don’t know if the restaurant was videoed during operating hours. The reporter and crew may have been there before opening, but then maybe not.

    I’m not sure how this will affect the restaurant’s business. But so far, it’s the only business of any kind I’m aware of that is requiring proof of vaccination.

    Oh, one of the reasons given by the owner for the proof of vaccination was so that all patrons would know that they are dining in complete safety.

    What an ignoramus!! Has he not been paying attention over the last month or so?

    If it was my place, I would demand proof that you have not been vaccinated (yeah, yeah, can’t prove a negative) in order to get in. The unvaccinated have likely already beat FauXi’s Flu whereas the vaccinated are shedding spike proteins or the Delta variant like crazy.

    (If I ruled the World, everything would be perfect, but no-one listens to me. 😜)

  7. philjourdan says:

    I have yet to see anyone do this yet (in the media).

    How many vaccinated have gotten the virus? Raw numbers please.

    How many have been vaccinated?

    What is the advertised rate of efficiency for each of the vaccines?

    Here’s some rough numbers (and why you will never see raw numbers reported, just percentage increases).

    160m vaccinated

    5000 vaccinated infected

    .003125% vaccinated now infected.

    Advertised efficiency of best of the Vaccines – 95% – meaning if all are that good, we should be seeing 8 million getting the Chinese WuFlu

    So far, we are nowhere near those numbers.

    Panic porn.

    And do not quote me on the raw numbers. Those are just ball parks. Close but not exact.

  8. YMMV says:

    Here’s a beautiful rant. I love it. Rhetoric at its best.

    He is in the Santa Clara area.

  9. jim2 says:

    I’ve been vaxxed, but any business that asks to see my papers will be shunned by me.

  10. Ossqss says:

    Cleaning out old links and BOOM, what a coincidence reminder eh?

  11. H.R. says:

    @jim2 – Yup. Your attitude as well as your quest for the facts of the matter regarding Covid, vaccines, side effects, etc. are evident. You have no agenda that I have been able to ascertain and you are willing too root for marginal therapeutics in the hopes that there are many things that will be helpful. (In God you trust. All others bring data😜)

    I’m much the same when it comes to my health and the Covid madness that is purposfully designed to infringe upon our freedoms.

    Today, I saw my oral surgeon. A capped root canal had crapped out (they get old and brittle and break) and I was in for an evaluation for what to do to fix it.

    They asked if I hade been vaccinated. I lied through my teeth (oops! Unintentional double entendre) and said I had the Pfizer vaccine. I was not about to draw things out into some long discussion, and besides (bonus!)( it will confuse official computerized records if my vaccination status is cross-referenced. “Vaccinated? Where? We can’t find it.” They didn’t ask for date or “papers, please.”

    My body, my choice. I refuse to criticize anyone, even sheeple herded into getting vaccinated (my wife wasn’t. She chose.) or anyone choosing no to get vaccinated.

    I appreciate you keeping everyone’s feet to the fire, jim2. Preventatives and therapeutics are favored here, but you are keeping things honest. (And you have some Ivermectin in your hip pocket😜)

  12. John Hultquist says:

    Jim2, “I’ve been vaxxed …etc”


    I’ve never had a reaction to any shot, didn’t expect a reaction to the first shot, but maybe the second. Nope. Nothing.
    There is evidence (more required) that vaccination gives a broader immunity than does a natural infection.
    Anyway, my thought – starting last March 2020 – was to get vaccinated when that became possible, because of my lack of response to other shots and having had many flu shots. Also, I’ve none of the issues that suggest a possible serious illness. (e.g., overweight, smoker, lung/heart)
    Back then, and now, I suggest,
    1st: jump on the known diet and supplement approach,
    2nd: avoid close encounters where the virus is happening,
    3rd: if no known reasons to avoid a shot – get it. (makes no difference to me)

    I (like E.M. and Hank Williams) say: Mind your own business
    ‘Cause if you mind your business, then you won’t be mindin’ mine

  13. E.M.Smith says:


    I’d love to get the vaccination, IFF:

    a) It worked better and didn’t let folks walk around as Delta Variant Factories.
    b) It was proven safe by proper testing.
    c) Failing “b” due to time constraints, we had the required and proper collection of adverse event data and it was public. (Experimental drugs under EUA have mandatory reporting -ignored).
    d) The Big Pharma companies were not being so cheezy and crooked all the time and I could trust them to just make good medicines.
    e) There was not obvious and obnoxious collusion and manipulation of the public going on between Big Pharma, Big Government, Big Media, and Big Social Media, and maybe toss in the DNC too.
    f) CDC, Fauci, FDA, etc. etc. were not caught repeatedly lying and pushing an agenda without regard to actual morals.
    g) Gates, Kissenger, and more were not on record pushing for sterility for the masses via a fraudulent vaccination program.
    h) Prince Charles? and others were not on record pushing for extermination of the masses “to save the planet”. (The planet will be just fine, even if we nuked the whole thing into a radioactive ball of lava. It would just start over and carry on again.)

    I’m not “anti-vax”. My kids got all their shots. I had a flu shot about 3 years ago (that did nothing and I’ve not got the flu since about 1985 or so…). I was figuring I’d get the Chinese Wuhan Covid vaccine right up until we started having folks die and have horrible side effects and damage from it. Heck, I still might get it if the thing shows it’s safe longer term. In a year or two we ought to have enough sample long enough to know.

    So yeah, I sort of “prefer” preventatives and therapeutics, but not out of any anti-vax bias. It is entirely due to “the numbers”. Ivermectin works better and works against all variants. It is cheaper. It has nil side effects (certainly none at all in me) and as close to zero risk as you can get. The “vaccine” is terribly leaky, has a lower efficacy rate, and is likely to be the causal agent in making more virulent variants propagate. Plus, it tends to kill or maim more people than is reasonable to me. Then the “Bum’s Rush” pushing it at everyone is just creepy…

    So I figure I’ll ride the Ivermectin or Quercetin / Zinc wave for about the next 2 years. Then, if it’s clear from the numbers that the vaccine is in fact working well and people are not suffering a litany of horribles, I’m likely going to get the shot just to have papers to wave and so I don’t need to buy another big jug of ivermectin drench for the next few years ;-)

    Basically: In any decent experiment, you need a “control group”. LOADS of folks are getting vaccinated, so who’s the control group? I’m self selecting into the “Unvaccinated Prophylactic / Therapeutics” group. (And many more will be in the “Just Unvaccinated” group). Life has always been a giant Craps Game, so place your bets and spin the wheel…

  14. David A says:

    The odds in Vegas are far far worse.
    And I am not trusting Lucy to hold that football.

  15. H.R. says:

    E.M.: “Heck, I still might get it if the thing shows it’s safe longer term. In a year or two we ought to have enough sample long enough to know.”

    For now, I prefer to stay voluntarily in the “control group” for the reasons you gave above.

    I’ve never had a bad reaction to a vaccine. I have been getting them most years and have only skipped them when my Dr. said they guessed wrong and they weren’t worth crap for the particular year’s flu. What’s the point in those years, eh? I’m no anti-vaxxer, either.

    I would love for Big Pharma to come up with the first ever effective Corona virus vaccine. I don’t think they have done it yet. There are too many years of failure to this point. But when they do, I’ll gladly stand in line for my jab.
    Meanwhile, I am concerned about the push to jab juveniles, who are at no particular risk, and pregnant women, when there are questions about potential miscarriages and sterility. Evil bastards!

    😡💥🧨🤬🤬🧨💥💥🧨😡🤬😈👺😈 mother effin’ 🤡🤡S!!!

  16. jim2 says:

    There might be some truth to be found in this, but it will take more information. Indonesia is experiencing a surge in COVID deaths and ivermectin is popular there. Hopefully, data, even anecdotal data, will be forthcoming from there.

    Coronavirus: anti-parasitic drug ivermectin is hot property in Indonesia, Malaysia, India as Delta variant spreads

    Some officials and independent medical groups have hailed it as a ‘miracle cure’ amid rising infections and low vaccination rates in the region

    Ivermectin, a drug used to treat parasitic infections in humans that is more commonly used on animals, is now trending in Indonesia

    Pharmacies across the country are reporting a boom in sales of the medication, and it has been sold out on e-commerce sites such as Bukalapak and Shopee. “People have been flocking to buy it,” said a pharmacist at Penang Island Pharmacy in the city of Medan in North Sumatra, who did not want to be named.

    The drug’s popularity comes after a number of high-profile Indonesian politicians championed its effectiveness in recent days – and as residents grow desperate, with the country’s hospitals overwhelmed and turning patients away amid the Covid-19 pandemic

  17. jim2 says:

    Here’s another interesting case. Brazil’s government has been promoting hydroxychloroquine.

    After repeatedly promoting the potential for chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine to both prevent and mitigate the effects of Covid-19, Bolsonaro himself tested positive last July. “If I had taken hydroxychloroquine as a preventative measure, I would still be working,” he said, even though the drug, most commonly used against malaria, had not actually been proven effective against the coronavirus and the World Health Organization (WHO) had discontinued a major trial with hydroxychloroquine.

    While in quarantine he posted a video on social media showing him taking what he said was his third dose of hydroxychloroquine.

    “I’m feeling really good. I was feeling so-so on Sunday, bad on Monday. Today Tuesday, I’m feeling much better than Saturday, so without a doubt,” he said as he held up a pill and then swallowed it. “It’s working.”

    Deaths there are declining.

  18. jim2 says:

    The recent dramatic appearance of variants of concern of SARS-coronavirus-2 (SARS-CoV-2)highlights the need for innovative approaches that simultaneously suppress viral replicationand circumvent viral escape from host immunity and antiviral therapeutics. Here, we employgenome-wide computational prediction and single-nucleotide resolution screening to repro-gram CRISPR-Cas13b against SARS-CoV-2 genomic and subgenomic RNAs. ReprogrammedCas13b effectors targeting accessible regions of Spike and Nucleocapsid transcripts achieved>98% silencing efficiency in virus-free models. Further, optimized and multiplexed Cas13bCRISPR RNAs (crRNAs) suppress viral replication in mammalian cells infected withreplication-competent SARS-CoV-2, including the recently emerging dominant variant ofconcern B.1.1.7. The comprehensive mutagenesis of guide-target interaction demonstratedthat single-nucleotide mismatches does not impair the capacity of a potent single crRNA tosimultaneously suppress ancestral and mutated SARS-CoV-2 strains in infected mammaliancells, including the Spike D614G mutant. The specificity, efficiency and rapid deploymentproperties of reprogrammed Cas13b described here provide a molecular blueprint for antiviraldrug development to suppress and prevent a wide range of SARS-CoV-2 mutants, and isreadily adaptable to other emerging pathogenic viruses

    Click to access s41467-021-24577-9.pdf

  19. corsair red says:

    E.M.Smith said: My answer is really simple: Just avoid New York City (and State most likely). They have nothing to offer me anyway.

    I agree. It is way past time NYC stopped being the center of the universe; social, fashion, art, etc. Not that I care about any of that. I’m just tired of hearing, ” And today in New York City . . . “

  20. AC Osborn says:

    jim2 says: 4 August 2021 at 10:46 am

    Re Iveremctin in Indonesia.
    A Billionaire or Millionaire businessman bought up a lot of Iveremctin and was issuing either free or at a very low cost. They had the Virus under control and then along came the Government, banned him from issuing Ivermectin and took over it’s deployment while pushing Vaccines.
    Of course being a government they then acceeded to the WHO ban on Ivermecvtin and the result was an explosion in cases.

  21. John Hultquist says:

    Mayor of NYC and (acting) Mayor of Boston (a Lady of Color, aka black) are taking opposite positions on requiring Vaxx-Papers to move about in their respective cities. Her view seems to be from the nasty past of a long history in this country of people needing to show their papers. Fox news has the story.

  22. E.M.Smith says:


    Blacks also have the lowest rate of vaccinations in most States, so “Her Constituency” would be far harder hit by mandates than any other. (Asians are most vaccinated, Whites & Hispanics about the same and in the middle).

    I think Blacks have had a longer history of being experimented on by “Doctors” without their consent and given all manner of experimental drugs with really bad results; so remember that bit of history a bit better and are justifiably skittish about being a Lab Rat again. My remembering their history is part of my reluctance, BTW…

    People can just sort them selves into Freedom Loving Cities and Tyranny Cities and then we’ll see how that works out for NYC et. al…. (A recent survey found over 40% of residents in San Franciso want to move out of the city, so my property values are through the roof!)

  23. DonM says:

    AC Osborn;

    I am doing the Ivermectin now. My daughter was vaccinated early on because of ‘health care worker’ status, came down with the standard allergy symptoms last Thursday. Friday night was likely the worst … primarily stuffed up. Tested Monday and was later told positive (I think she also got express test results because of ‘health care worker’).

    The absolute ridiculous nature of a system that restricts Ivermectin (or any other relatively harmless treatment) is frustrating. I haven’t had a doctor for twenty years, so I am limited to begin with, but in Oregon there are very few Ivermectin doctors anyway (I knew it was a long shot but I called the office of one of them … he has had his license pulled).

    Anyway, peanut butter & jelly & horse jelly, proceeded by a bunch of nuts or other fatty foods; Zinc, vitamin d, vitamin c, magnesium, selenium (in the nuts) & tonic water & coconut oil.

    So far all I’ve got is tired and jittery at the same time.

    (kinda odd coincidence though, I was watching TV before work this morning and realized I didn’t have (or need) my glasses. My eyesight did a little bump over the last few days.)

  24. Ed Forbes says:

    Papers Please !
    Ok, here….

    Click to access mc-covid-card-version-3.pdf

  25. John Hultquist says:

    EM: “so my property values are through the roof!”

    You are selling and moving, right?

    A friend, traveling on I-90 eastern WA, said she saw several U-hauls heading toward Idaho or just east. I’m watching for a report on this “escaping the progressive states & cities” trend.
    About this time next year we should ask for a new Census.

  26. DonM says:


    I have been looking at around 300 homes a year … when the owners are there I ask them where they are going. I also talk to the buyers on occasion.

    I’m seeing a lot of people from California wanting to move into Oregon (central & southwest). People in Portland area & Seattle moving into Central Oregon; so yes, escaping cities as well as states.

    Also seeing people in Oregon wanting to get the hell out (going to Wyoming, Montana. Virginia, Florida, North Carolina).

    Seems to be an even mix going and coming from Texas.

    Haven’t met anyone yet that says they are going to New York, Mass, or any other NE states. A few go back to California (retirement to the high desert is kinda sucky when you are too old to deal with snow and cold), but not many.

    One recent guy coming back from Colorado/South Dakota to Central Oregon after making enough money.

  27. Taz says:

    The enemy is us.

    Cancel culture for the enemies of freedom may be necessary. Do you wish to live around people like this? We’re not compatible with this OBEY species….sooner or later we’ll come to blows.

  28. E.M.Smith says:

    @John H.:

    Yes. We’ve had 4 offers already, but I’m thinking I can get more than has been offered by “Flippers” (before we even have it on the market or have done ANY work on the place…). Spousal Twin’s house hits the market on the 10th and will likely be under contract inside a week (if things are as they have been the last few months). Spouse is 1/2 owner, so gets a bucket when that closes (house is paid off…). We, then, shove some of that money at a new roof and some other repairs, and moving spouse and stuff out of State. I hang on a “little while” doing supervision of mechanical work, packing and shipping, whatever… then load up dogs and “never leaves my presence” stuff and drive across the country… again…

    Somewhere in there our house goes under contract and escrow closes. Somewhere in there Spouse finds a rental she likes and all our stuff gets unpacked. Sometime around May we spend time in the Tennessee valley and check it out. Sometime about 6 to 9 months from now, we buy something somewhere… and I get to move all over again 8-( but I’ll be good at it by then ;-)

    I think I’ll mark some boxes as “Someday Stored” (things like the endless boxes of books and excess cooking gear…) and just leave them in pods for a few months, avoiding the double packing…

    But unless the whole thing blows up (Dims in action? Government “help”?) we ought to be out of State inside 2 or 3 months one way or another.


    Texas and Florida have already declared they are mandate free. Other States will follow. Just pick a “Red State” and be there… Vote out anyone Soros affiliated and vote in non-Dim non-RINOs.

  29. mddwave says:

    Two weeks ago, I got the COVID-19. After a week wIth low oxygen concerns from previous problems, I decided to try socialized medicine. With my low oxygen, I got immediate attention. I got the gamut of tests. Blood work, EKG, chest X-ray, painful nose swipe, and the CT X-ray with iodine. When I asked if I had variant D, the doctor said we have no idea. The PCR Test is too general to tell difference with same virus family.

    Socialized medicine checked me into the hospital for bureaucratic nurse care.

    I was injected daily with resdesivir for reducing my time at hospital. When I read previous research on resdesvir, I got the impression that it was marginal benefit. When I asked the nurse about the patient improvement. She had no idea for that hospital location. “Just do the expensive drug for the insurance.”

    I got injections in my belly for blood clots for laying around risks. I think all it did was bruise my stomach.

    The primary treatment was 24×7 oxygen and periodic Tylenol for fever. Once I overcame fever, I started to feel better. After 5 days, I was returned home.

    In retrospect, if I did common sense home treatment (like Tylenol, etc), I could have avoided the hospital. For me, the hospital did a great job of monitoring and controlling fever with Tylenol.

    As a civil servant, Biden dictated the vaccine or I have to do bureaucratic red tape if I don’t. If asked if I wished I got the vaccine, I would say no. The risk of vaccine is much greater than getting Covid-19

  30. Ossqss says:

    When will we see the missing recognition of natural immunity in the equations and edicts? When?

    Kinda like natural variability in Climate Science? No?

  31. jim2 says:

    Getting the COVID exposes your immune system to all the viral proteins, so I’m not surprised it conveys broader immunity and a more robust response. I read it also causes the production of non-neutralizing antibodies. It’s not a problem due to all the neutralizing ones, I just find it interesting.

  32. E.M.Smith says:


    At this point, given what I saw crossing “flyover country”, I’d expect nearly everyone has been exposed and either already immune or “got over it”. IMHO, there’s zero benefit to vaxxing them.

    That link from Another Ian about a pandemic of the vaccinated is, IMHO, spot on. Looking at percentage vaccinated in the population and percentage hospitalized vaxxed vs not, you find the same percentage ratio. Therefor the vaccine is accomplishing nothing per hospitalizations and the “very few vaccinated get seriously ill and go to hospital” is because very few un-vaxxed get seriously ill and go to the hospital…

  33. Ossqss says:

    @EM, my point exactly, if there has been exposure and response that is equivalent or even better. Why not count it?

    @Jim2, also my point exactly. Not an artificial fraction, the whole real thing.

    We have, as a species, responded to such infectious diseases successfully for thousands of years, or we didn’t.

    Just sayin >

  34. Ossqss says:

    Frankly, the holes the thing called a Vaxx leaves open, is why we see the Vaxx susceptible to infection. IMHO>

  35. Ossqss says:

    Here comes Lambda. >

  36. Ossqss says:

    Dang, no edit available @EM

    [Reply: Fixed it for you. Unfortunately, to get an edit feature, I would need to be running my own instance of WordPress and customize it. The one they run for you for free just doesn’t have it. -E.M.S.]

  37. The True Nolan says:

    @EM: “I think I’ll mark some boxes as “Someday Stored” (things like the endless boxes of books and excess cooking gear…) and just leave them in pods for a few months, avoiding the double packing…”

    Exactly. In fact, If you know you are only going to be renting for a few months, make it a long but comfortable camping trip. Only unbox what you NEED, not what would be long term convenient.

    @mddwave: “I was injected daily with resdesivir for reducing my time at hospital. When I read previous research on resdesvir, I got the impression that it was marginal benefit. When I asked the nurse about the patient improvement. She had no idea for that hospital location. “Just do the expensive drug for the insurance.”

    So glad you recovered! Go to about 5:00 and check this re side effects and efficacy of resdesivir:

  38. pinroot says:

    Well, at work today we had to all start wearing masks again, regardless of vax status. About a month ago, we were told if we showed proof of vax we could stop wearing masks. About half the whites stopped wearing masks (although I know of a couple of fully vaxxed folks who continued to wear one, for whatever reason). As for non-whites, almost all of them continued wearing masks, with only a few exceptions. So it appears that blacks, hispanics and Muslims are vax hesitant, at the very least. I would assume you could extrapolate that to the population at large.

    I found an image recently that I wish I could post, as it’s pretty interesting. It could be a fake, but it shows what looks like a photo taken at a presentation being given that has a list of variants and dates. Left column is the Greek alphabet (the variants) and the right column is months. Apparently there will be a new variant each month, with Omega happening in Feb 2023. As I said, it could be fake, but time will tell.

    I keep wondering why the in the US 99% of hospitalizations are people who are unvaxxed, while in most other countries, a sizable portion of the hospitalized are vaxxed. For example in Gibraltar, population 33, 691, they have administered 78,459 doses (according to this:
    That works out to 2.3 vaxes per person, and they still have 5101 cases. So apparently with over 100% of the country vaxxed, there are still cases in 15% of the population (I can’t find numbers for hospitalizations, just cases). They aren’t the only country with those types of numbers. Based on this alone, I don’t trust the numbers coming out of the US (and I don’t trust anything that comes out of Fauci’s mouth).

  39. rhoda klapp says:

    “I keep wondering why the in the US 99% of hospitalizations are people who are unvaxxed, ”

    Somebody is lying to you ‘for your own good’. When the authorities start doing that, ‘for your own good’ turns into ‘to support our narrative no matter what’. No way this statemnt is true unless there is a serious unstated qualification.

  40. The True Nolan says:

    @ pinroot: “I keep wondering why the in the US 99% of hospitalizations are people who are unvaxxed, while in most other countries, a sizable portion of the hospitalized are vaxxed.”

    This may answer your question:
    The short answer? More lying with numbers.

  41. pinroot says:

    @Rhoda and @TNN – It was sort of a rhetorical question, but it’s obvious that someone, somewhere, isn’t telling the truth :)
    Thanks for the link @TNN!

  42. E.M.Smith says:


    I’ve lived “on the road” a lot (years at a time, especially if you include my year or 2 on the sailboat as I worked on the road and was only “home” on weekends… at my boat.). So I usually have a “Go Bag” and “Road Kit” prepped and ready. One is in my car here, and one is in the car that’s pre-positioned in Florida. My intent is that, for me, I pack ONE suitcase of clothes, take my “work backpack” (tablet, chargers, phone, writing pad, PMK Personal Maintenance Kit (toothbrush, paste, razor, soap, etc. and related) and put it in a car with the “Road Kit / Kitchen / Camping gear” and that’s it for me until we buy a house again. The Mrs. not so much…

    I’m thinking I’ll pack “Furniture” (what I can’t get rid of…) in one pod, with “stuff that can sit forever” like books I’ve not opened in 10 years. Then “likely to need in an apartment” (dishes, some cookware, some tools for the car, some computer lab stuff, etc.) in a different pod.

    Essentially, a 3 (or at most 4) tier packing.

    1) Road Kit Stuff. What I need to live out of a hotel for 6 months to a year. My “usual” kit. It goes in the car (along with dogs and “never leaves me” things like photo negatives).
    2) Likely want this in an apartment for 6 months to a year of it. (Question of furnished or not…)
    3) Not needed until we get a house.
    4) Optionally not 3: Stuff I may never see or use again… Like I have 3 week whackers. I never bought one, so someone else did. I’m going to find out if they work and at most keep ONE. That I may not ever use, but who knows… My garage workbench. I created it from 2×4 and plywood. It’s nice and all comes apart. But when will I really need it again? It has served as “Storage Shelf” the last decade…

    Some of that will depend on cost of Pods and how effectively I pack them. Not renting a 4th if I can keep it at 3 or under…

    Initially we will be in a hotel with the Road Kit. Then an apartment or rental house (I’d prefer it be furnished, but who knows). When we buy a new house, then the pods all get unpacked.

    The hard bit, of course, will be to properly sort things into said Pods…

  43. The True Nolan says:

    @EM: ” especially if you include my year or 2 on the sailboat as I worked on the road and was only “home” on weekends… at my boat.). ”

    You lived on a sailboat? Never mind. You know what to do! I had a sailboat decades ago but never spent more than a couple weeks at a time on it. Living on a boat is a wonderful way to learn what is nice, what is usually needed, and what is rock-bottom necessary to survive.

  44. E.M.Smith says:


    Yes. I “got rid of everything” (much to my regret now…) and moved onto a 27 foot “Bayliner Buccaneer”. It was an ideal live aboard for the Bay Area. 27 inch draft. A 12 inch shoal draft keel. Had horrible leeway, but I could literally sail anywhere in the bay. Very Fat beam, but had a master cabin aft, shower and head, nice galley, and a V berth forward. Essentially an RV of the water, not a racer by any means. On a GOOD day I could make 4 or 5 knots. Once, in Raccoon Strait, I was in a 3 knot exiting tide. Spent the day tacking back and forth up tide and going nowhere at all…

    Once, a fin keel very expensive boat was running their motor like crazy kicking up a brown mud wash behind them. Stuck, fin keel in the muck, they had exited the narrows of the channel to Port Sonoma (mouth of the Petaluma River where I was berthed) in San Pablo Bay (north half of what most folks call “San Francisco Bay” that is really only the part south of San Francisco…).

    Folks on deck were waving frantically. “Don’t come here, we are STUCK!!! it is TOO SHALLOW!!!!”… I thought about doing a rapid tic-tack tack but it would be work. I was single handing it and the channel is narrow and they were at one edge just were I’d need to do the rapid tack… So I just let the sail loosen a little, put my heading behind their stern about 100 yards and let it be a long slow lazy tack outside the channel in about 6 or 5 feet of water. Waaay more than I needed….

    As I tacked way outside the channel and back, their waving and shouting stopped… the faces become frowns of hate and scorn… HOW DARE I have a boat that didn’t get stuck in shallow waters….

    In some ways the most special time of my life.

    OTOH, I left the boat when a favorite book sprouted mold AND a W.W.II long coat was similarly mouldy. The lack of humidity control, AC & Heat had finally gotten to me. I moved back ashore and never looked back.

    But I’d still get a boat (WITH some kind of AC / Humidity control…) and live on it in a heart beat.

    There is NOTHING like heading home Friday Night, sleeping looking up out of a glass hatch at the stars, rocked to sleep by a gentle slap slap slap of minor waves… knowing that Tomorrow, you will head out of port, pop a brewsky, and set sail for a 7 hour tack “that-a-way”, then turn it back for another 7 (or whatever your limit is ;-)

    I still have dreams about my time as a live-a-board… Then again, my Mum was daughter of a Sailor in Her Majesty’s Merchant Marine… as were the two generations before him that we know of so there’s some amount of salt water in my blood…

    It is likely I’ll be buying a boat in Florida. My Florida Friend has got his “Certificate” as a captain of private boats (when did that become a thing?) and wants to go in on a boat. I can see little reason not to. Time on the water is not subtracted from a man’s life…. ( I think it is the Vitamin D ;-)

  45. David A says:

    Regarding the “epidemic of the unvaccinated,” this MSM fabrication is despicable.
    In some cases up to the first 80 percent of all hospitalized and fatalities had occurred before any vaccines began! Also they usually compare to fully vaccinated. The second round took more time, and require a couple more weeks after that to mature to serious. Plus the initial time of the vaccine is when it is most effective, losing about 5 percent effectiveness per month. Additionally in the N.H. the end of the cherry picked period was the typical time of lowest infections and hospitalized. ( so comparing the first two waves with zero vaccinated to the lull after the second or third wave).

    For instance one year ago in the UK there was a trough between the first and second wave. The absurd report covers up to this years low, in the same period. In this low, that came 12 months later, the UK has another trough, yet now, despite vaccines, and greater natural immunity, there are more deaths and infections then one year ago, so the vaccine should get very little credit for helping the low. ( and cases are going up) Additionally they often cherry picked certain areas and states. Additionally they did less testing on the vaccinated, a policy change. Also they provided zero numbers on testing, cycles, etc… for vaccinated vs unvaccinated, and zero demographics on testing, hospitalizations or fatalities.

    Ask anyone pushing this numbers absurdity to please provide the most recent two weeks numbers of hospitalized, vaccinated vs unvaccinated, on any state or nation where the vaccine had been out for some time. Also ask for the testing numbers on the vaccinated verse unvaccinated. They won’t do it. Many areas like Israel, Iceland, and that small country with 100 percent vaccinated, some US states , all have equal or higher numbers of cases, hospitalized, and deaths when comparing the percentages, in the vaccinated vs unvaccinated.

    We now know the vaccinated have equal to greater rates of shedding.
    We know the vaccine immunity rapidly fades, allowing new infections.
    We know that initially the vaccines suppress symptoms, making patients far more likely to shed in public situations.
    We know the vaccines immunity is far narrower focused then natural immunity.
    We know the vaccines put evolutionary pressure on selecting vaccine resistant variations. ( leaky vaccines are gain of function factories in the infected vaccinated population)
    We know the vaccines already have a terrible safety record, and the potential harm is catastrophic.
    We know they likely cause failure to gain herd immunity.
    We know they fire harmful spike proteins throughout most of the organs of the body and the brain. ( Germany just did an autopsy of a man who died from the vaccines. He had spike proteins in every organ of his body)

    Here is a link I found that explains this incredibly well. I recommend reading this more then any link I have shared.

  46. The True Nolan says:

    @David A: That list of “we know” should get the attention of anyone who reads it.” The link you provide is also sobering, logical, and is more than backed up by doctors such as French Virologist and Nobel Prize Winner Luc Montagnier.

    For at least the last 14 months I have been increasingly reminded of the gaslighting done for decades with the Global Warming crowd. The same sorts of “ooops! Just a mistake!” incidents. The same sort of implausibly bad decisions. The same sort of manipulation of data. The same sort of appeals to authority followed by vicious insults and doxxing. Pieces of information that OUGHT to be easily available are missing — and remain missing even after being politely asked for. Over and over and over, every decision seems to be resolved in the most damaging way possible. We have been down this road before, or at least down a VERY similar road. The difference is that this time the consequences are worse.

  47. The True Nolan says:

    @EM: “moved onto a 27 foot “Bayliner Buccaneer”. It was an ideal live aboard for the Bay Area. 27 inch draft. A 12 inch shoal draft keel.”

    Very similar to my old boat in Florida, but yours is a bit bigger.
    I think I remember the 27 Buccaneers. Very nice for living aboard, but rather high freeboard and combined with a shallow draft, not going to win the races! Similar story with mine — but if you are not racing and actually want to be comfortable aboard not a bad choice at all. Especially in Florida having a shoal draft is a godsend. There is a LOT of shallow water and being able to sneak into little creeks and bays is wonderful. One of my favorite memories is following a long tidal flow maybe a half mile up into a marsh of tall grass and anchoring for the night with porpoises swimming in the currents around the boat. Giving up some windward performance is a small price to pay. Choose your weather right and you can even jump over to the Bahamas and find even MORE shallow water to play in. I still like the idea of a live aboard boat, but these days it is more a shanty boat or a canal barge sort of dream. Strictly rivers, lakes and coastal cruising. Small engine, just enough to go slow, nothing too thirsty or too loud. The sort of boat you can spend a few days on at anchor if the weather is rainy and you don’t feel like going on deck. I may get that yet…

  48. David A says:

    TTN says,
    “Pieces of information that OUGHT to be easily available are missing“

    So true, and so damming on its own. I was thinking of starting a list of what we should know by now. Think of the studies that could have and should have been done by now. And the misrepresentation of partial facts is over the top. Vey much “hiding the decline “ with, as you say, very deadly consequences.

    Israel is rapidly proving the vaccines have failed…
    Israel Times: 14 Israelis have caught COVID-19 despite receiving booster shot

    The network says 11 of those infected are over the age of 60 — two of whom have now been hospitalized — while the other three got their third dose because they are immunocompromised.

    The booster shots were specifically approved for the elderly and immunocompromised – 2 out of 14 is “only” a failure rate of 14%, I guess (and the booster shots have only been recently approved so maybe there are more to come)

    Israel News: Serious COVID Cases in Israel Hit 4-month High as New Restrictions Go Into Effect

    Israel counted on Saturday evening the highest number of COVID patients in serious condition since April

    And also Israel’s Exhausted Hospitals Fear Wave of Serious COVID Cases

    The steep rise in the number of coronavirus patients in serious condition has revived the debate on overcrowding in hospitals, and most of all the fear that plagued Israel even before the delta variant: the hospitals’ so-called insufficiency to provide adequate treatment to some patients.

    We know the vaccines produce much higher antibodie counts then natural immunity. Higher, but not more effective. They had to because many of the antibodies fail to neutralize the virus. That is 1/2 way to ADE. What is happening in Israel is the antibody count from the vaccines are falling rapidly. What if the non neutralizing ones are not falling as fast Hope to be gasket worried.

  49. David A says:

    The one statistic I would like to see now is to compare vaccinated that, prior to their vaccination, had experienced Covid, vs the same, unvaccinated that had experienced Covid. ( Would confirm if the vaccines are damaging natural immunity, as there is a pathology that could cause this.)

  50. jim2 says:

    Maybe it’s just simple math?

    Katelyn Jetelina, PhD, MPH, an epidemiologist at the University of Texas Health Science Center at Houston, explained the concept of base rate bias back in June after the Israeli health minister said that about half of infections were occurring in vaccinated people.

    “The more vaccinated a population, the more we’ll hear of the vaccinated getting infected,” Jetelina wrote, noting that 85% of Israeli adults were vaccinated at the time.

    If there were four COVID cases out of 100 people, for example, with two occurring in vaccinated people and two occurring in unvaccinated people, that would be 50% of cases occurring in vaccinated people.

  51. David A says:

    Jim, the math is simple ( I can do it) and it is woefully misleading and short. I challenge anybody to do the following, take the most recent two week period of any large area, nation or state, where the vaccines started early and cover a large portion of the population, and provide the following, cases, hospitalized, and fatalities separated by vaccinated vs unvaccinated for that recent short two week period. ( This alone shows failing vaccines and no difference between the vaccinated and unvaccinated, in some cases worse for the vaccinated.

    Of course do the appropriate percentages, but add the vaccinated and unvaccinated statistics on tests and cycles run as well. And, as a sub category add in the previously infected and now vaccinated vs the previously infected and not vaccinated! For a bonus give the demographics of each group as well.

    Instead the yahoo PHDs in government only report disingenuous absurdities like 98 percent of deaths occurred in the unvaccinated. Wow, look at the US worldometer chart. Close to 90 percent of deaths occurred before the vaccines had any real affect, positive or negative. The same yahoo’s ignore seasonal declines and natural immunity causes declines as well, giving 100 percent credit to the vaccines or an immensely cherry picked time line. Incompetence or malice. The evidence strongly supports malice.

    Look at the UK numbers in WM. One year ago cases and deaths were much lower the after the vaccines. The UK, Israel and the US, and AFAICT all other heavily and early vaccinated nations in the NH are starting a new wave. This should have been impossible.

  52. David A says:

    Jim, read this link and share your critique please.

  53. AC Osborn says:

    Anybody got any idea why Mexico, who tamed COVID with Ivermectin are now almost back where they were in the number of cases.
    Even the number of deaths has quadrupled.
    Has Ivermectin stopped working, didn’t really work first time around or have they stopped uisng it?

  54. E.M.Smith says:

    @AC Osborn:

    As stated on the other thread: Explanation I heard was that in some States, Govt. Authorities banned the use of Ivermectin, and so in those States cases were rising.

  55. E.M.Smith says:

    @David A:

    I don’t see much to critique in the link. Maybe it’s just me…

    Oh, Wait: I have something to criticize! The language is a bit strong with curse words by proxy.

  56. H.R. says:

    @AC Osborn – I second E.M.s “last I heard”. Someone here noted an odd increase Mexico’s cases, I know I made a guess as to why and so did a couple of others here.

    A day or two or three later, someone found a reliable report that some of the Mexican State governors banned Ivermectin.

    The link is on one of the Covid threads, but I can’t recall which one. It was about 3 months ago +/-.

  57. DonM says:

    My daughter, being ‘health care” (actually lab work) was vaccinated 6 months ago and contracted Covid about 2 weeks ago (tested positive and everything). She is quarantining for another 5 days, in my house.

    I pulled the horse ivermectin out of the cupboard and ran five doses over six days for me. I might buy another tube and do more, I haven’t decided yet. My daughter refused the horse medicine & I couldn’t convince her to ask her doctor about ivermectine pills.

    I felt some mild symptoms (very tired, twinge of headache, twinge of sore throat, what felt like beginnings of stuffiness … the twinges never ballooned into anything … just tired. I don’t even know if I caught it (they won’t test here unless you have symptoms; even then, I didn’t want to be on the list if I did have it.) Daughter is better now, but still can’t smell/taste things yet (but that doesn’t stop her from putting chocolate on her ice cream).

    I put on masks to make other people feel better, but other than that I haven’t really had to change much over the last couple years. I have to put up with Govt agencies using covid as an excuse for their incompetence; I have to wait in the drive thru lane instead of going inside; bank branches are lessening hours or shutting down; DMV sucks even worse than before …

    What really irks me is that I can’t get Ivermectin pills. I have to resort to putting horse medicine in my peanut & jelly sandwiches. Maybe I’ll get the topical.

    *Did the Ivermectin cause tiredness in anyone but me???

  58. Ed Forbes says:

    I use the “pour on”, external, not internal, with no reaction noticed.

  59. The True Nolan says:

    @DonM “*Did the Ivermectin cause tiredness in anyone but me???”

    Pour on here as well — no tiredness or noticeable reaction at all.

  60. AC Osborn says:

    Thanks guys.

  61. The True Nolan says:

    Here is a Doctor giving a great comment at a public school board meeting. We need more doctors to stand up and give information as concisely as this gentleman.

  62. DonM says:

    So, not a symptom of treatment … maybe a symptom of a disease.

    *What type of topical?? (my gel was the 1.8% Durvet made in canada)

  63. DonM says:


    That guy was pretty impressive, thanks.

  64. E.M.Smith says:


    That LewRockwell link M.D. was a real barn burner. Pretty much nailed it all!


    My “topical” is the rubbing alcohol (Isopropanol) solution AKA “Cattle Drench” or “Cattle Pour On” (i.e. DO NOT EVER SWALLOW IT).

    I’ve had exactly ZERO of any symptoms at all of any kind.

  65. The True Nolan says:

    Cattle drench, comes in various sizes, this is the small bottle, already has a “serving size” dispenser built in. Roughly $20 for a liter. Rub on 10ml per 100 KG. (10ml = 2 teaspoons). Much cheaper in the bigger bottles.

  66. jim2 says:

    David A. I did read your link. I think you have to play the cards you have, not the ones you want. Your man is probably right in most respects, but now what? I’ve said this before, it’s a shame the medical establishment/government didn’t do trials on cures like HCQ or IVM or even Vit D, Zinc, and Vit C. A lot of lives probably would have been saved. But that didn’t happen. I will turn to IVM if I get COVID and I have been vaxxed. But millions of others aren’t me.

    I’ve said this before, but everyone has placed their bets. They have or haven’t been vaxxed, do or don’t believe HCQ or IVM will cure COVID. Use masks or don’t, etc. A lot of people have been vaxxed and so far even if they get COVID, it’s usually not a trip to the hospital. People who have had COVID should be good to go. (It IS simple math!) So now it’s time to spin the wheel. Let everyone go about their business and see who collects. No lock downs, no quarantines, no government intervention. Let it fly!

  67. H.R. says:

    @DonM – I’m doing the pour on and all I notice is a little medicine smell for an hour or so after.

    That’s it.

    Oh wait! I still have the morning stuffy, sneezy nose, but it is has been cut in half or more since I went to 5ml once per week.

    So either the pollen count is going down or the Ivermectin is fighting off the spike proteins that I suspect the vaccinated Mrs. H.R. is shedding.

    Anecdotal, but that’s my report.

  68. jim2 says:

    My friend who had been vaxxed and got COVID, then got prescription IVM, is doing well. She is almost 80! The only problem hanging on is fatigue. Hopefully that will pass also, but she it doing very well and said she felt better in just a day or two of taking the first IVM.

  69. The True Nolan says:

    I am NOT a doctor, but just a general comment regarding doses: The picture linked above says 5mg per ml, meaning that a 100 KG animal would get 50mg applied to the skin. Dosages for humans I have seen (and someone PLEASE correct me if I am wrong!) were for 3mg pills recommending 6 pills one day (18mg) then 6 pills the next day (another 18mg) and then 6 pills a week later, for three weeks. That makes the skin dose 50mg vs an oral dose of 36mg in two days, followed by 18mg/week for the next three weeks. the human dosage I saw did not specify weight, but if we ASSUME a full sized adult, then the comparison of skin vs oral is at least in a plausible range — at least in my non-professional, non-doctor, self taught, non-expert opinion. Seeing that humans have little fur compared to cattle, I suspect that 5ml for a 100KG human would still suffice. Shame we can’t just walk down to the store and get this over the counter like in civilized, non-criminal nations. It would be nice to take out some of the guesswork, huh?

  70. E.M.Smith says:


    EXACTLY right. We have both placed our bets. Lets find out who is the winner….

    I hope it is both of us, and not neither….

    I’d LOVE to find out that the Vax is “OK if not great” (in that vaxxed folks get Delta but No Bad Thing) just as I’d love to find out that non-Vaxed get “snivels and are done”…

    Time to stop the betting round and call the bluffs.


    For me, it is the Malty-Poo dog that causes me to stuff up and snivel. He LOVES to sit in my lap, but I’m deadly allergic to him. So I “medicate and pet”…


    My PDR (Physicians Desk Reference) says that Ivermectin has a 16 hour half life. There’s also statements that a 40 X recommended dose is where overdose starts to show (I.E. Very wide therapeutic dose). So the difference between the FLCCC dose level for prophylaxis (that equates to 5 ml or 1 tsp of the “drench” or “pour on” (do NOT drink!)) and the 100 kg sheep pour on, is 16 hours…

    Yes, the FLCCC translates to a 5 ml dose for a 100 Kg individual topical drench, while I use a 10 ml for a 100 kg individual topical drench application. So I reach “not therapeutic” at 12 days + 16 hours instead of 12 days… on a “once a week dose” schedule. I.E. you are worrying about angels and pins…

  71. The True Nolan says:

    #Em “you are worrying about angels and pins…”

    But worrying no longer! :)
    That 40X overdose and 16 hour half life are nice numbers to know. Thanks!

  72. Terry Jackson says:

    Tractor Supply stocks IVM. Check you local farm supply.

    A bit diversionary. I have been on 5,000 IU Vit D for years, plus a lot of sun exposure in shorts and polo shirt in the SW desert, Started 2 grams Vit C about Feb 2020. Went to have the teeth cleaned in late April 2020 and the tech was amazed there was zero gum bleeding. Went from 3 to 4 cleanings per year to two. This after a lifetime of painful and messy tooth cleanings. I started at 6 grams for a month (Vit C), then went to 2 grams once a day. My results only.

  73. David A says:

    Jim says, “ David A. I did read your link. I think you have to play the cards you have, not the ones you want”.
    No argument, I am not the dealer. Got lots of complaints about the dealer though.

    I also agree with this, “A lot of people have been vaxxed and so far even if they get COVID, it’s usually not a trip to the hospital”. The thing it, it is also true for at least 80 percent of the population, and always has been. A careful reading of the link I sent, and this one to follow, demonstrates that the vaccines may do severe harm to herd immunity, their own recipients and to the unvaccinated as well. I think the evidence is building in a direction nobody civil or sane wants. What is happening in Israel should not be possible if the vaccines did what they claimed.

    Dollars to donuts if you took all the states and laid them out from earliest and most vaccinated, to latest and least vaccinated, and looked at all infections , hospitalizations and deaths in the last two weeks ( some minor adjustments for the insane policy to stop tracking and testing the asymptomatic vaccinated) of course adjusted for percentages in each category, you will find a moving curve with the most and earliest vaccinated states having regressed to the same or equal infections and hospitalized and dead when adjusted for population percentages in respective categories.

    I found this link very educational as well.

  74. David A says:

    ? One of at least two dozen, to the powers that be. How come we have no follow up on the Diamond Princess?
    Did any of the surviving infected get the virus again, or did none of them.
    How did they do if they did get infected after vaccinated?
    How soon after vaccination did they contract the virus.
    If a subset refused vaccination, how have they done? Etc.. literally dozens of question for that one incident. And similar studies on other well know wuflu events.

    In general, why did the stop testing or reduce testing the vaccinated. Why did they stop retesting and tracking the asymptomatic vaccinated. Why have they not produced statistics on vaccinated who, prior to vaccination, had contracted Covid, vs unvaccinated in the same category? I have about 50 more questions What government has done is very very bad, what they are suppressing by inaction, and what they have not done, is equally dark.

    With government house rules, you must play the game, and are not even allowed to look at your cards dealt.

  75. The True Nolan says:

    @David A: “With government house rules, you must play the game, and are not even allowed to look at your cards dealt.”

    The fact that you are not allowed to see your cards tells you all you need to know about whether it is a fair game.

    All those questions you asked? The reason why we do not have those answers is because the people responsible do not want those questions to be answered. It really is that simple.

    I remember going actually for a couple of years looking into the Global Warming farce and time after time thinking, “OK, this just MUST be an accidental misreading of the data.” Or “They cannot have seen the information from the 19th Century.” Or “Just a matter of time before they answer this obvious question.” Or “This report is outrageous! Bet this guy get fired from his research post!” Or, “I can’t believe the news got this so wrong! How can they misrepresent what happened?” Or “Wait a minute! They said the same thing a year ago and it was disproved then!” And so on and so on…

    It is VERY difficult for a person who puts great faith in science to accept that scientists will lie through their teeth. And Doctors will lie through their teeth. And bureaucrats pretending to be scientist and doctors will ABSOLUTELY lie through their teeth. And even a mostly honest scientist or Doctor will lie just a little (or at the very least keep his silence) if his job, his reputation and his paycheck depend on it.

  76. David A says:

    Yep, between malice or stupidity I must go with malice, it takes what I call arrogant intelligence to make so many “mistakes” which always somehow aid your political agenda.

    Major backtrack on the claimed 99 percent of hospitalized are unvaccinated.

  77. jim2 says:

    David A. While I read the article you linked, it doesn’t “demonstrate” anything, much less that the vaccine prevents herd immunity. Even your man used the weasel word “potential.”

    But worse is that by taking the jab and then getting infected anyway you have now not just become a potential mutational factory

    At the end of the day, your man is rendering his opinion. He asserts he “knows” all this to be true, but offers nothing to back it up. I don’t grant other people god-like status just because they talk a good game on the internet, but that’s just me.

    So again I ask you, since you are very worked up over all this, what is it you suggest we do?

  78. jim2 says:

    A total of 10,262 SARS-CoV-2 vaccine breakthrough infections had been reported from 46 U.S. states and territories as of April 30, 2021. Among these cases, 6,446 (63%) occurred in females, and the median patient age was 58 years (interquartile range = 40–74 years). Based on preliminary data, 2,725 (27%) vaccine breakthrough infections were asymptomatic, 995 (10%) patients were known to be hospitalized, and 160 (2%) patients died. Among the 995 hospitalized patients, 289 (29%) were asymptomatic or hospitalized for a reason unrelated to COVID-19. The median age of patients who died was 82 years (interquartile range = 71–89 years); 28 (18%) decedents were asymptomatic or died from a cause unrelated to COVID-19. Sequence data were available from 555 (5%) reported cases, 356 (64%) of which were identified as SARS-CoV-2 variants of concern,§ including B.1.1.7 (199; 56%), B.1.429 (88; 25%), B.1.427 (28; 8%), P.1 (28; 8%), and B.1.351 (13; 4%).

    The findings in this report are subject to at least two limitations. First, the number of reported COVID-19 vaccine breakthrough cases is likely a substantial undercount of all SARS-CoV-2 infections among fully vaccinated persons. The national surveillance system relies on passive and voluntary reporting, and data might not be complete or representative. Many persons with vaccine breakthrough infections, especially those who are asymptomatic or who experience mild illness, might not seek testing. Second, SARS-CoV-2 sequence data are available for only a small proportion of the reported cases.

  79. jim2 says:

    Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report 792MMWR/May 28, 2021/Vol. 70/No. 21US Department of Health and Human Services/Centers for Disease Control and PreventionCOVID-19 Vaccine Breakthrough Infections Reported to CDC — United States, January 1–April 30, 2021CDC COVID-19 Vaccine Breakthrough Case Investigations Team

    Click to access mm7021e3-H.pdf

  80. jim2 says:

    Here’s a good CDC page with multiple reports:

  81. jim2 says:

    David A. ADE has been discussed at length, so that’s nothing new. Since clinical trials were not carried out over multiple years, no one, including your man, knows how long vaxx antibodies will last. He has some good points, but not everything he says is Bible nor can he predict the future.

  82. David A says:

    Jim you said
    “ David A. While I read the article you linked, it doesn’t “demonstrate” anything, much less that the vaccine prevents herd immunity. Even your man used the weasel word “potential.”

    Jim, I said “may”, he said “potential.” Neither are weasel words. Both are honest, backed by science. ( how come we are not tracking what we need to in order to know? The things where he asserts “we know” can and should be vetted, yet I found his evidence logical and refers to both studies and facts on the ground. What is happening in many nations is indicative of massive vaccine failure.

    But worse is that by taking the jab and then getting infected anyway you have now not just become a potential mutational factory

    “ At the end of the day, your man is rendering his opinion. He asserts he “knows” all this to be true, but offers nothing to back it up. I don’t grant other people god-like status just because they talk a good game on the internet, but that’s just me.”

    Jim, I do not give “Gid like” status either.( nor did he claim it) However a well researched argument, like his, is not bafflegab. Are you really disputing mutation pressure on a virus from a very leaky vaccine is non existent? He demonstrates clearly that the vaccines attack on Covid is narrow, and directed at the initial viral entry pathways. If you are going to criticize, please quote, and be specific.

    Jim says, So again I ask you, since you are very worked up over all this, what is it you suggest we do?

    What should have done from March 2020 on, when much was known… Heavy use of Ivermectin, HCQ, vitamins D and C and sunshine. Encouraged folk to get outdoors.
    Stop the lockdowns. Stop or severely limit the vaccines except for the most vulnerable and make it elective. or write an honest paper on the real dangers and limitations, and actual adverse events, and get people to sign that before taking, and also sign a release of liability. Remove the law giving release and make it a choice. The Ro would have dropped below one long ago.

    Protect the vulnerable, especially the elderly overweight. Don’t send the sick into care facilities of vulnerable elderly.

  83. jim2 says:

    Well, David A., I agree with all your remedies. My situation in life makes the choice to get the vaccine, IMO, a good one. I see no reason that everyone should get the vaccine. Most people that get COVID will come out the other side just fine. If only you and I ruled the world :).

    I also agree there is a cabal of wealthy and powerful people, public and private, who are coordinating an effort to control us. The COVID/vaccine bit is just a small part of it and not very effective in a lot of states. People where I live are out and about mostly without masks. The virus is presumably at large and spreading apace. At some point, just about all of us will have had it.

    I’m not so sure the vaccination will prevent a broader immunity if a vaccinated person gets the virus. I haven’t done a deep dive on the question, but I tend to trust more technical papers and presentations that are apolitical and not so much angry. Just the facts, ma’am. Right now I’m pretty busy, but at some point maybe will have time.

    In the meantime, if you have some apolitical, non-angry links about it, I’ll be happy to read them.

  84. jim2 says:

    Sometimes counties have better data than higher levels of government – here’s data from my county.

    East Region Hospitals Total Capacity Current Census Available Current Utilization Available Capacity
    All Hospital Beds 3,077 2,610 431 84.80% 15.20%
    Adult Floor Beds/Non-ICU 1,863 1,681 90 90.20% 9.80%
    ICU Beds 317 304 13 95.90% 4.10%
    Ventilators 400 148 252 37.00% 63.00%

  85. jim2 says:

    “The kids are safe. They always have been,” wrote journalist David Wallace-Wells. “It may sound strange, given a year of panic over school closures and reopenings, a year of masking toddlers and closing playgrounds and huddling in pandemic pods, that, according to the CDC, among children the mortality risk from COVID-19 is actually lower than from the flu.”

  86. David A says:

    It is my perspective that the left politicize everything, including science. ( The CAGW issue as an example) What is called “ Post Normal Science” ruins science. The man that believes in the right to be left alone, is not trying to force change on others.

    I just got an email from Scripps, my health care provider. An unvaccinated person can no longer visit the hospital without a negative test within the past 72 hours. ( Yet a vaccinated person can.) They carry just as high a viral load, or higher. The CDC said so. If I was previously infected I am less likely then a vaccinated person to be infected or have a high viral shedding. If I am asymptomatic I am less likely to have as high of a viral load. (According to the vaccine theory, one is more likely to be asymptomatic if infected and their viral load is as high or highest.
    I have been threatened by the President if the US that I, as an unvaccinated, would pay. Many have lost their job, because they are unvaccinated. The military us being forced to vaccinate. Travel bans are threatened, etc…. And thus all pales compared to the CDC, WHO, and others, consistently instituting policies that did maximum economic harm and maximum physical harm from COVID. Destroying jobs, harming education, shutting dumb life, careers, families etc… These ideologues can pay for a study that sounds apolitical science like, and completely distort science without blushing.

    A little fire is not a bad thing. A healthy skepticism to anything Government funds and publishes is warranted.

    Actually we do know that the vaccines are rapidly failing and this is the whole reason for the boosters. Did you see the recent Israeli news on the boosters?

    From Dr. Bauer at the Crick Institute regarding lowered levels of neutralizing antibodies in vaxxed.….

    00:44 “As that time goes on, the lower your levels [neutralizing antibodies] are also likely to be.”


  87. John Howard Jr says:

    …but I just read that the Moderno vaccine is showing no lessening of it’s efficacy after 10 months. Wifey and I got vaxed, but I’m for whatever blows your skirt up. My brother and his family are taking ivermectin as a prophylactic. Mom practices “social distancing”.

  88. AC Osborn says:

    David A says: 11 August 2021 at 5:37 am
    Interestingly both your links are no longer working.

  89. jim2 says:

    At a meeting last week on the matter, most of the members of the pandemic advisory team recommended that the third dose be given to older adults. Opinions were divided, however, regarding the bottom age of the range at which to start the vaccination program – with some recommending age 60 and others as high as 70. The final decision to begin at age 60 was made by Health Ministry Director General Nachman Ash and the team of experts in light of figures showing waning effectiveness of the vaccine among patients 60 and over who were vaccinated in January. It declined on average from 97 percent in April to 81 percent in July.

  90. jim2 says:

    ACO – the gab link doesn’t open for me, either. For the second link, there is a date in it, so it is no longer active. Here’s the home site:

  91. David A says:

    Why is the current UK death rate 400 percent higher then one year ago?

  92. E.M.Smith says:

    I find it highly informative that this is the scenario and recommended action:

    The Vaccine does not work against the Delta Variant (and possibly others).
    The Vaccine selects for escaped variants as it is “leaky”. The more it is used, the more it will fail.
    The Vaccinated Population in highly vaccinated places, like Israel, are dropping like flies from the Delta Variant.
    Un-vaccinated folks seem to be at no more risk, and in some cases slightly less risk.
    There are now a half dozen prophylactic and therapeutic regimes that work.

    Therefor, to stop the Delta Variant: Give more vaccinations of the non-functioning vaccine.

    As a logic syllogism it fails horribly.

  93. Steve C says:

    I came across an interesting link to a PDF (consisting of screenshots of rather iffy quality) which suggests that it’s absolutely not just “vaccine tyranny” and it’s coming to us all, not just the UK or the US. The subject is “Next Steps – Permanent Lockdown of the UK (Private & Confidential)” and, although their timeline has been upset by Johnson actually daring to allow the last lockdown to end, declares that they “have a relatively short window of opportunity with which to finalise our next steps of the process”. The language and attitudes feel real enough, and I’m sure they’re working very hard on catching up while we “enjoy” our damp British summer.

    If there is any genuineness to it, we can all look forward to “… the Environment and Water Scarcity (2022-23), Food Shortages (2023-24) and Global Finance and Mass Inflation (2024-25) culminating in finalisation of the UN, WHO and WEF Joint Global Kalergi Plan in 2025”. Always nice to know what presents our (self-styled) “Great and Good” are planning for us, so we’ll see how it pans out. See what you think (it downloads as a file called “uk”, with no .pdf suffix):
    (If it’s disappeared, I can email you a copy, though if it is genuine WP might be very wary of hosting it)

  94. E.M.Smith says:

    @Steve C:

    Looks more like a “spoof” to me. Real folks don’t put that kind of thing in a PDF. It reads more like a fantasy of what someone thinks such a person would be saying if there were causing the evil.

    That said, it’s a good job of it. It’s on that edge of “maybe yes, maybe no”…

  95. E.M.Smith says:

    @David A:

    Looking at Worldometer I don’t see a big increase in deaths:
    Nor at a couple of other sites claiming to have bulk mortality data through 2020 and 2021.

    Where did you see a 400% increase?

  96. Steve C says:

    @E.M. – Agreed, it’s “on the edge”, especially as all the addressees check out too … I’ll wait for someone to turn up with my “Stay At Home Bracelet” – I can always unwrap a bit of tinfoil from my hat to screen it! (Side note, funny how no-one ever seems to mention that a real tinfoil hat would wrap a nice resonant cavity round the brain, ready to fry … ;-)

  97. David A says:

    E.M. Look at the same period one year ago. ( Typical season low, after the first wave in tge UK, before vaccines, before more herd immunity. They were having about 10 deaths a day. Now it is about 50, one year later

  98. AC Osborn says:

    I am still concerned about Ivermectin in Mexico.
    Mexico City where they carried out the study demonstrating how good it was is now practically back where it was before the study.
    They have gone for a mass vaccination push and like elsewhere have mass cases and deaths.
    I can understand the cases but not the deaths.
    Have they stopped treating with Ivermectin or has it stopped working?
    It would be very bad news of it doesn’t work.

  99. The True Nolan says:

    @EM and David A: “Where did you see a 400% increase?”

    Are you two talking apples and oranges? Are we comparing TOTAL mortality or just COVID mortality?

  100. jim2 says:

    There is actually some hope in the Israel story in light of the experience with Delta in the UK and Netherlands. Cases peak fairly quickly, then fall. One interpretation is it spreads so fast that many people get it, then have natural immunity, making cases fall.

    In London, influential epidemiologist Prof. Neil Ferguson, the mastermind of the UK’s first lockdown, said in mid-July it was “almost inevitable” that the final phase of ending restrictions would bring on 100,000 daily cases.

    Surprisingly, the cases didn’t rise, but instead fell. The Delta peak hit just before the unlocking at 54,000 new daily cases. Now the figure stands at about 28,000.

    In the Netherlands, there was dismay over rising infections in early July, and following a non-compulsory work-from-home recommendation, new daily cases plummeted from an 11,000 Delta peak in mid-July to around 2,500.
    Ora Paltiel, professor at the Braun School of Public Health and Department of Hematology at Hadassah-Hebrew University (Jared Bernstein)

    Epidemiologist Ora Paltiel said that the picture emerging in highly vaccinated countries like the UK and the Netherlands may foreshadow what is in store for Israel.

    They had a head start on Israel in terms of Delta, and the Israeli curve was only just starting its sharp climb as their infections peaked. If Israel follows their trajectory, it may mean that infections will peak soon and then fall.

    There is some mystery as to exactly why cases in the UK and the Netherlands peaked and fell as they did, observed Paltiel.

    Even in India, where the variant originated and vaccination rates are low, Delta peaked in May with about 400,000 new daily cases and then fell sharply, to about a tenth of that today.

    Paltiel said that the peak-and-fall effect may reflect large numbers of people becoming infected, some without realizing, and the resulting antibodies causing an immunity boost in society.

  101. Ossqss says:

    @Jim2, for clarity, cases are known, infections are not.

    Kinda like the CFR and IFR stats.

  102. E.M.Smith says:


    Just got to watch that “rant” video you posted. It’s a keeper!

    Some of the topic / data are the same as in Jim2’s comment just 2 above.

  103. E.M.Smith says:


    I looked at both and didn’t see a big rise in either. He’s quoted a “#/day” that I’ve not found.

    @AC Osborn:

    I think this is the important part, bolded near the bottom:

    One country that has had remarkable success in the war against the COVID pandemic, but has received little to no global media coverage, is Mexico. Like the rest of the world, COVID cases in Mexico exploded in April 2020, the first hot spots flaring up along the northern border with the United States, in Mexico City and Quintana Roo, a popular tourist destination in the Caribbean. At the beginning of the pandemic, Mexico took recommendations and followed protocol set forth by the World Health Organization (WHO) and watched the virus spread from state to state, engulfing the entire country.

    On June 10, the Spanish-speaking media began reporting on the success that Peru was having in controlling the virus using ivermectin as a treatment. Mexico was in the middle of its worst peak of cases and deaths with records breaking daily, and interest in the drug – as well as sales – rose dramatically.

    On June 20, the pan-American WHO (OPS/OMS) issued a statement strongly opposing the use of ivermectin.

    When used, it works. When “strongly opposed” and removed from use, it doesn’t…

  104. E.M.Smith says:

    More “Side Effects” (one wonders how many people have similar damage but not bad enough to go to the hospital and have it discovered / identified…)

    Aug 11 (Reuters) – Three new conditions reported by a small number of people after vaccination with COVID-19 shots from Pfizer (PFE.N) and Moderna (MRNA.O) are being studied to assess if they may be possible side-effects, Europe’s drugs regulator said on Wednesday.

    Erythema multiforme, a form of allergic skin reaction; glomerulonephritis or kidney inflammation; and nephrotic syndrome, a renal disorder characterised by heavy urinary protein losses, are being studied
    by the safety committee of the European Medicines Agency (EMA), according to the regulator.
    Last month, the EMA found a possible link between very rare heart inflammation and the mRNA vaccines. However, the European regulator and the World Health Organization have stressed that benefits from these vaccines outweigh any risks.
    Moderna’s shares,
    which have climbed more than 75% to Tuesday’s close since mid-July when it joined the S&P 500 index (.SPX), fell about 16% to $384 on Wednesday.

    BioNTech’s U.S.-listed shares were down 14.4% and Pfizer nearly 4%.

    One supposes the big profit flood is at an end and the time to exit has arrived…

  105. cdquarles says:

    Something similar to erythema multiforme is pyoderma gangrenosum. Differences are more skin trouble and little to no kidney trouble. Both are from an overly activated immune system where the parts that are overly activated are not quite the same and the initiating mechanism isn’t quite the same. A bit of overlap is scarlet fever nephritis.

  106. David A says:

    @ TTN and EM , no I am comparing cases in the UK to one year ago at the same time. I am pretty sure there is a seasonal component to such viral infections.
    One year ago, after their first wave, the U K was having about 10 fatalities a day. Now it is over 50.

    I hope Jim is correct that the delta variant was in fact far more contagious and no more virulent, so quickly established some decent herd immunity.

  107. David A says:

    “ When used, it works. When “strongly opposed” and removed from use, it doesn’t…”

    A very good post at Jo Novas affirming this…
    -5-21 Dr. Marty Makary, professor at Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine says: Over 85,000 Americans die annually from alcohol, yet we don’t have the same public health fervor or requirements to save those lives….The notion that we have to vaccinate every living, walking American–and eventually every newborn–in order to control the pandemic is based on the false assumption that the risk of dying from COVID-19 is equally distributed in the population. It’s not. We have always known that it’s very hard for the virus to hurt someone who is young and healthy. And that’s still the case.
    During every month of this pandemic I’ve had debates with other public researchers about the effectiveness and durability of natural immunity. I’ve been told that natural immunity could fall off a cliff, rendering people susceptible to infection. But here we are now, over a year and a half into the clinical experience of observing patients who were infected, and natural immunity is effective and going strong. And that’s because with natural immunity, the body develops antibodies to the entire surface of the virus, not just a spike protein constructed from a vaccine. The power of natural immunity was recently affirmed in an Israeli study * which found a 6.7 times greater level of protection among those with natural immunity vs. those with vaccinated immunity.
    * With a total of 835,792 Israelis known to have recovered from the virus…Israelis who were vaccinated were 6.72 times more likely to get infected after the shot than after natural infection.
    8-8-21 close to half of my positive COVID patients in an unsolicited manner are demanding to be placed on alternative therapy such as ivermectin. In a very angry manner.
    I have no problem using this drug. I used it quite a bit in the first big crash in the fall and winter and started using it again about 6 weeks ago. Using the scientific method as I was so carefully trained to do decades ago, and with the limited tools I have, I have been able to make some observations.
    Once a patient, vaccinated or not, becomes positive for COVID in my practice, my nurses or myself call them once in the AM and once in the PM. There is a form we fill out on each of these calls to describe their clinical condition with parameters fever, congestion, shortness of breath, coughing, pulse ox, etc. When the patients have cleared every single one, we quit calling them. We usually have between 15-20 active cases this past few weeks daily. A pattern became very obvious very quickly in this process and I have distilled it with 2 raw numbers. The Ivermectin patients are cleared of symptoms (N of 44) in average of 2.4 days. The Non-Ivermectin patients (N of 19) are cleared of symptoms after 5.7 days. Furthermore, on day 5 of the illness, we always have the patients go and get tested again. The Ivermectin patients have literally a 100% negative rate by Day 5. The non-Ivermectin patients have a 58% clearance rate by Day 5.
    I want to make one thing very clear. This is the scientific method. These numbers are consistent with the overall signal that all kinds of studies are showing with this drug. However, I am just one clinician in one office. Nothing dispositive can be said or done with these numbers.
    However, it is an indication of yet another complete fail on the part of our medical leaders. These signals have now been out there for about a year. It is at this point, a national embarrassment that nothing has been done to fully evaluate this drug. I will say again, our leaders are not practicing medicine, they are practicing business.
    PASTOR JB I’m a volunteer hospital chaplain in Houston. I’ve been around over 5000 HOSPITALIZED COVID-19 patients. Those treated with Ivermectin and/or hydroxychloroqine plus Zinc and Vitamin D all started improving in 12-36 hours. The mean was 18 hours. Houston’s Medical Center Complex is the largest number of hospitals, beds and ICU beds in America. We have the highest recovery rate by far. The majority of Covid-19 patient deaths were treated by physicians who refused to prescribe Ivermectin or hydroxychloroqine. Thus our N number is over 5000. That’s not distorted. That’s FACT. The lab and the CDC admits they still haven’t been able to isolate the Covid-19 virus. You can’t create a vaccine to treat a virus when you don’t even have the virus isolated. It’s also fact that the basis of this useless vaccine was created before the virus was released. WTH?

  108. David A says:

    I don’t ascribe to the virus has not been isolated assertions. As to the lab created vaccine before Covid and the patents on the virus, I believe that was confirmed, although not necessarily completely. The purported purpose of GOF research is to develop a vaccine I think. And apparently many aspects of Covid are patented, as well as many parts of the vaccine. Perhaps this evidence is why the powers that be decided to lower the resistance to lab created.

  109. jim2 says:

    I’m not for having to show papers for anything COVID, but we have idiots in charge that want everyone vaccinated. So, from the “play the cards you have” department …

    If someone has a negative RT-PCR test AND a positive antibody test, that person should be treated exactly the same as one who was vaccinated. We need to write our reps and spread this idea on social media (for those that might use social media, like GAB maybe.)

  110. David A says:

    If this is accurate the natural immune person is far safer to interact with.
    And that’s because with natural immunity, the body develops antibodies to the entire surface of the virus, not just a spike protein constructed from a vaccine. The power of natural immunity was recently affirmed in an Israeli study * which found a 6.7 times greater level of protection among those with natural immunity vs. those with vaccinated immunity.
          * With a total of 835,792 Israelis known to have recovered from the virus…Israelis who were vaccinated were 6.72 times more likely to get infected after the shot than after natural infection.

  111. E.M.Smith says:

    Per the “6.72 times” Israel experience:

    One “sidebar” on that… Some of what I’ve read has implied, or stated softly, that vaccinating for a ~”related” antigen causes, over time, a poorer response to the actual antigen. IIRC, it was with Flu where repeated flu shots had lessening of your ability to repel the new flu. Again, IIRC, the reason was (paraphrased) that the body looks in the memory tool closet, finds a “somewhat close” antibody, and just makes that. It skips the step of figuring out what THIS bug is and making a full suite of antibodies to it (as it “already knows”, or so the signals indicate…).

    To the extent I got that right, and to the extent it happens with the vaccinations, it might be that for some vaccinated folks, they just can’t create a good natural antibody response to a reinfection of the virus.

    It will be very interesting to see the relative performance / illness / deaths / recoveries / etc. in the Vaccinated, vs NON-Vaccinated, vs Recovered, vs Vaxxed after Recovery groups. One hopes such data becomes available…

    It will also be vital to gather deaths and severity data for “Vaxxed and not Boosted” to see if ADE is showing up (if so, a “booster” is just postponing and perhaps making worse That Day…)

  112. David A says:

    EM , yes about the information you say we should have. Think about what a detailed follow up to the Diamond Princess would reveal, how each differentiated group did post that experience, and then again post vaccines, or not.

    This should have been, indeed, must have been. If not, why not, if so, where are the results.

    Oh, do you see what I was saying about the UK lull between seasonal waves now, and one year ago. Sorry if I was not clear .

  113. jim2 says:

    EMS – I would appreciate any links with evidence vaccination will cause a milder immune response to the real infection. I’ve been looking. So far, nothing.

  114. E.M.Smith says:


    To the best of my knowledge, so far it is just speculation.

    The evidence I saw for the mechanism was about flu vaccines and over several years of shots.

    For Covid, the only evidence is early, speclative, and not vetted. It is A report of higher nasal titres of virus in the vaccinated sick vs unvaccinated, in one test / report. Then a couple of places with lots of vaccinated reporting lots of vaccinated in the hospital. Thin tea at best.

    So something to watch for, not something proven in Chinese Wuhan Covid.

  115. Paul, Somerset says:

    It’s the Hoskins Effect.
    All the research into it is summarized here:
    It’s certainly a thing every few years with the flu vaccines. I made a speculative post on here a few weeks ago, wondering whether a similar effect would show up after repeated injections for this Sars-2 coronavirus, possibly when the patient is challenged by a mutation of this virus, or, more likely in my view, when the next precisely tooled coronavirus leaks from a Chinese lab.
    It’s an idea I’ve put out in posts on a couple of other forums where independently minded posters with specialist knowledge gather, and basically I invited them to shoot it down.
    No one responded. Whether that’s because my idea is so obviously deluded it’s not worth debating I don’t know.

  116. Paul, Somerset says:

    Here is a transcript of a recent discussion between financial types and medical experts. Roughly half way down the page (I’m not the “Paul” in this discussion, by the way!):

    “Paul, I wanted to bring you in if I can. Speaking to you before, you wanted to ask about the Hoskins effect and antigenic sin, which sounds terrible. Can you explain what they are, first of all, before you put your question?

    Paul Major: Sure, very simply, the immune system prioritises speed over everything else. So, if it looks at a previous immunological memory and exposure-, so simply put, if your body thinks it’s seen something before, it will produce the same antibodies that were successful the last time around. So, one of the challenges around these variants-, Justin touched upon the point, these variants of Covid, they’re actually small changes in sequence. So, I guess it would be interesting to hear the participants thoughts on whether it might be challenging to get variant boosters to actually create new antibodies or if, in fact, the body is going to say, it’s another Sars-CoV-2, I’ll just churn out the antibodies I churned out in response to the first vaccination that I got?

    Gavin Lumsden: That does sound problematic, Justin, do you want to tackle that first?

    Justin Stebbing: Paul, it’s a great question. We know that infection with the 2002, 2003 Sars, perhaps, MERS gives some protection against Sars-CoV-2, as does infection with routine seasonal coronaviruses, as well. We know that one type of flu or one type of flu vaccine can confer some cross-immunity, although not complete cross-immunity with others, as well. So, there’s many, many layers to your question. With this virus, it has no aim, it has no desire other than to reproduce its genetic material and it’s very good at that because of it’s viral load during the asymptomatic period, when no one knows when they’re infected, but in terms of the immune response to it and whether we need new vaccines, I suspect that we will do…”

    And then the discussion peters out without really answering the question.

    My worry is that there are people in Peking who do know the answer to this question, and that they have just the right coronavirus, with just the right amount of antigenic drift, ready to exploit western immune systems primed by repeated vaccinations against the current one.

  117. Paul, Somerset says:

    And this is a much better discussion of the pros and cons. I’ll go to bed now. Too many postings!

    “We might actually see lower efficacy five years from now, if people are still locked into recalling the response to the first [SARS-2] antigen that they saw.”

    Sarah Cobey, an associate professor of computational biology at the University of Chicago, shares his worry. “As long as we have competition between old antibody responses and new antibody responses … then it seems like exactly the right sort of environment to see these phenomena,” Cobey said.

    “I can’t think of a reason that should be restricted to influenza,” she added.

  118. jim2 says:

    Severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) and Alphainfluenzavirus are RNA viruses that cause coronavirus disease-19 and influenza, respectively. Both viruses infect the respiratory tract, show similar symptoms, and use surface proteins to infect the host. Influenza requires hemagglutinin and neuraminidase to infect, whereas SARS-CoV-2 uses protein S. Both viruses depend on a viral RNA polymerase to express their proteins, but only SARS-CoV-2 has a proofreading mechanism, which results in a low mutation rate compared to influenza. E1KC4 and camostat mesylate are potential inhibitors of SARS-CoV-2 S protein, achieving an effect similar to oseltamivir. Due to the SARS-CoV-2 low mutation rate, nucleoside analogs have been developed (such as EIDD-2801), which insert lethal mutations in the viral RNA. Furthermore, the SARS-CoV-2 low mutation rate suggests that a vaccine, as well as the immunity developed in recovered patients, could provide long-lasting protection compared to vaccines against influenza, which are rendered obsolete as the virus mutates.

  119. cdquarles says:

    Things to remember about influenza: two main serotypes (A and B), and highly (relatively) zoonotic (in addition to other mammal types, these types routinely go from man to swine and back or man to bird and back or more rarely, from man to swine to bird and back) ability. Corona viruses are also zoonotic, but generally, it seems, not nearly as much as influenza. Does that have something to do with corona virus error detection and repair for its genome? Maybe. These viruses have been around at least as long as humans have been around and we must live with them and survive them (and them, from our responses).

    Bah, I have to log in to see the full paper, and I don’t want to make an account. Friggin’ NIH, too.
    I do note that they don’t want to look at ivermectin or hydroxychloroquine. In the old days, the pharmaceutical companies had incentives to re-purpose old drugs. I wonder why they don’t have that now ;p.

  120. Paul, Somerset says:

    Thanks for the response, cdq. That makes sense, and it’s the reason why I am concerned less with mutations in the current virus (as you explain, they’re not that significant, for natural reasons), but more concerned by what is being cooked up in labs, in China and other places. That’s where coronaviruses are indeed being altered on the same scale as influenza ones.

    By the way, I (and jim2, evidently) had no trouble accessing the nih paper with no login or registration.

  121. David A says:

    Here is an interesting paper on concerns with the vaccines. Of note to me is that, I guess other then a sharp increase in mortality , you cannot easily identify ADE when it occurs.

    “ tell. The mRNA vaccines ultimately deliver the highly antigenic spike protein to antigen-presenting cells. As such, monoclonal antibodies against the spike protein are the expected outcome of the currently deployed mRNA vaccines. Human spike protein monoclonal antibodies were found to produce high levels of cross-reactive antibodies against endogenous human proteins (Vojdani et. al., 2021; reviewed in more detail below). Given evidence only partially reviewed here, there is sufficient reason to suspect that antibodies to the spike protein will contribute to ADE provoked by prior SARS-CoV-2 infection or vaccination, which may manifest as either acute or chronic autoimmune and inflammatory conditions. We have noted above that it is not possible to distinguish an ADE manifestation of disease from a true, non-ADE viral infection. In this light it is important to recognize that, when diseases and deaths occur shortly after vaccination with an mRNA vaccine, it can never be definitively determined, even with a full investigation.

    Does this make it possible to hide a vaccine induced response and claim some other cause if mortality increases.

    And is not this, from another study, very concerning, as non neutralizing antibodies are a first step in ADE… (Mount Sinai New York pre print)

    “In this study we profiled vaccine-induced polyclonal antibodies as well as plasmablast derived mAbs from individuals who received SARS-CoV-2 spike mRNA vaccine. Polyclonal antibody responses in vaccinees were robust and comparable to or exceeded those seen after natural infection. However, the ratio of binding to neutralizing antibodies after vaccination was greater than that after natural infection and, at the monoclonal level, we found that the majority of vaccine-induced antibodies did not have neutralizing activity.“

    Here us the link to the first paper…

  122. AC Osborn says:

    That NIH paper is from June last year and irrelevant as far as the Delta variant is concerned, which shows they were premature in their summary.

  123. cdquarles says:

    Again, that business about ADE happens with natural infections, too.

    Coxsackie B virus and type 1 diabetes autoimmune reaction, for instance; which, I think, gets modulated by Human Leukocyte Antigen groups. I may be wrong about that one, though.

    Hmm, some of that type 2 diabetes we see may not be “obesity” as such; but ADE like autoimmune diseases from prior natural infections or immunizations, or both. After all, the immune system activation does also activate stress response hormonal systems (some more than others, too). Obesity may be more of an effect than a cause than what is widely considered. (Remembers how much prednisone blew me up, weight-wise.)

  124. Paul, Somerset says:

    Geert vanden Bossche speculates on the effect of booster vaccinations against vaccine-induced variants, with the Hoskins effect implying that these might only elicit the same antibodies (Abs) as from the original vaccinations. And that this might actually trigger antibody-dependent enhancement (ADE) owing to these antibodies becoming non-neutralizing.

    “It is difficult to imagine how administration of an ‘updated’ booster vaccine would not even precipitate viral resistance as it would increase the likelihood of a strong recall effect on previously elicited Abs (i.e., Abs that are specific to the original S-based vaccine) due to antigenic sin. Suboptimal recognition of the evolving, more infectious circulating variant(s) by these ‘old’ Abs could be of substantial concern since antigens that are poorly matched to Ag-binding Abs might contribute to triggering Ab-dependent enhancement of disease (ADE).”

    God knows whether he (and I) are genuinely onto anything here. But regardless, what a mess.

  125. David A says:

    Concerning natural immunity vs vaccine immunity, I think the first question to ask is WHY DON’T WE KNOW ? We absolutely have had plenty of time to find out, and the evidence on the ground is fairly overwhelming. ( I will find some of those, I linked to one earlier where those infected, vaccinated vs unvaccinated with prior infection showed about 7 to 1 ratio of new infections.) As I looked at the article I think it actually showed far more, just that the KNOWN Documented previously infected, is much lower then the likely true number of previously infected.

    I linked this pre print Mount Sinai New York study earlier…
    Basically while antibody development is as high or higher from the vaccine, the MAJORITY of the antibodies were non sterilizing! ( this is higher and not the kind of thing to get wrong) Which along with it being confirmed that the antibodies are losing about 3 to 5 percent per month, or more, is strong evidence that vaccine immunity is much weaker. Also narrower.

    We also KNOW natural immunity from SARS 1 was effective 17 years later with robust T cell memory stimulating a strong neutralizing response. This is apparently not happening with the vaccines. We know from the vaccinated in Israel getting just as severe an infection as the unvaccinated, and going to severe hospitalized in the same or higher percentage as the unvaccinated. We also KNOW that the vaccine manufacturers are pushing hard on boosters. ( Again, not needed with natural immunity.) I will look again for the report on natural immunity vs the Delta variant. I recall it was doing very well.

    I do not consider it thin gruel at all to say that natural immunity is better. I consider it evidenced based to say that vaccine immunity after six months may be worthless and definitely, not theory, put mutation pressure on developing vaccine resistant variations. There are pathogenic pathways for the vaccines to harm natural immunity. Why do we not have studies of previously infected that had natural immunity AND got the vaccine, vs those with natural immunity that never got the vaccine?? We should not be guessing! It is inexcusable! We have hundreds of millions of controls in every category. Does anyone think that if the evidence showed vaccine immunity equal to or better ( the established line from the media about the vaccines) that information would be not be all over the news? Of course it would be.

  126. David A says:

    The Israeli study said this…

    With a total of 835,792 Israelis known to have recovered from the virus, the 72 instances of reinfection amount to 0.0086% of people who were already infected with COVID.

    By contrast, Israelis who were vaccinated were 6.72 times more likely to get infected after the shot than after natural infection, with over 3,000 of the 5,193,499, or 0.0578%, of Israelis who were vaccinated getting infected in the latest wave.

  127. jim2 says:

    ACO – flu vaccines typically have a 40-60% effectiveness. The mRNA vaccines still have a 42 and 76%, Pfizer and Moderna respectively, effectiveness against the Delta variant. Recall the initial effectiveness of the mRNA vaccines against the variants of the time were north of 95% – very high.

    The flu creates multiple serotypes every year, ones for which previous vaccines don’t work.

  128. David A says:

    So is there any reason to think this is not accurate…
    “ In addition natural infection with Covid-19 is sterilizing. Being infected and recovering conserves the nasal and respiratory mucosal response which is where the virus enters the body. Natural infection also conveys both “N” (nucleocapsid) and “S” (spike) antibody knowledge and T-cell recognition but the “N” knowledge is much stronger as coronaviruses have evolved to evade the immune system with the “S” portion through millions of years. This is why they can infect you in the first place. The “S” portion undergoes mutation at a quite-rapid rate while the “N” portion is conserved. It was thus expected that prior infection would lead to durable (years to decades) of resistance and indeed that’s exactly what we have found thus far. Indeed in a small study it was found that this recognition extended to the bone marrow in a large percentage of cases and in those people is likely to confer decades-long if not lifetime protection. This is not true for “S” induced immunity as it wanes rapidly and, far worse that is where the mutation is taking place and thus where escape risk lies.”

    CD, you appear to have the most background in this area, your thoughts, and everybodys thoughts appreciated

  129. E.M.Smith says:

    @David A:

    We don’t know because they don’t want to know…

    FWIW, I’m now quite certain I’ve been exposed to Chinese Wuhan Covid a few times, had start of sniffles and the Ivermectin ended it. I’m also pretty sure that has informed my mucosal immune system about what this beast is.

    Why do I say that?

    Recently I went to day 12 on one Ivermectin dose, was exposed to about a dozen strangers (showing house) and had “that feeling in the nose”… which then went away… and THEN I got my Ivermectin level back up…

    Without really any evidence beyond a hunch, I think using Ivermectin prevents disease while still letting your immune system learn about this bug.

  130. cdquarles says:

    @David A,
    That sounds correct to me.

    Influenza has two envelope associated proteins, H and N. H is hemagglutinin and that comes from seeing red blood cell clumping when exposed to isolated H protein. N is neuraminidase. Corona viruses have two as well. The spike one is the one used to force fusion of the virus with the cell membrane. That’s why they focused on it, in my opinion.

    I agree that this hyper-focus on the spike is a mistake. Natural infection avoids that problem at the expense of worse reactions in some. Monoclonal antibodies avoid some of that, if you have enough of them at the source in time. If you don’t, for some, that will induce a potentially worse reaction.

    Natural infections with either corona or influenza viruses do so at the mucosal surfaces first. New infections induce IgM first, then IgA for the mucosa and IgG for blood plasma. Inducing the tissue one, IgE, may result in allergic reactions, up to and including hypersensitivity ones. Either way, there is a chemical dance that balances “self” epitopes with “foreign” epitopes. Wet chemistry is messy, and “perfect” can’t be the enemy of “good enough”, in part because perfection isn’t possible. So, any infection, with pre-existing immunity has the potential for either inhibiting the response (bad, from the host’s point of view), or enhancing it. If overly enhanced, that may be bad from the host’s point of view.

    The over-reliance on injections with these is another problem, in my opinion. Development of oral or nasal vaccines would be better, though overcoming digestive enzymes is an issue.

    Predator-prey relations are a thing. This applies to host-parasite and host-pathogen relations, too.

  131. The True Nolan says:

    In an odd sort of way, doing study into the Global Warming fraud has become a sort of memetic vaccine against falling for the COVID fear porn. The parallels between the official propaganda campaigns of the two subjects are surprisingly strong.

    @EM “I think using Ivermectin prevents disease while still letting your immune system learn about this bug.”

    I am convinced of the same thing, and my experience has been the same as well. I have had a few minor cases of not-quite-a-sore-throat-but-feels-a-little-different which disappeared by the next morning after a top up of IVM.

    Meanwhile a friend of mine (vaxxed) was hospitalized for four days after developing a high fever and delirium. The cause? The doctors couldn’t find anything. They sent samples off to Virginia but we don’t know the results. A neighbor across the street (vaxxed) came down with COVID five days ago. Not sure what her status is at the moment.

  132. Terry Jackson says:
    Well balanced article. It is here, it is not going away, deal with it.

  133. David A says:

    “ The mRNA vaccines still have a 42 and 76%, Pfizer and Moderna respectively, effectiveness against the Delta variant. Recall the initial effectiveness of the mRNA vaccines against the variants of the time were north of 95% – very high.”

    It seams that any such statements must include the beginning and ending dates, and the population referred to. What is the difference between relative risk, and absolute risk, and what does it refer to? Catching the virus? Being hospitalized? Death?

    Some say the vaccines have list 20 percent of efficacy in Israel. Yet many area when the number of unvaccinated vs vaccinated is compared to the number hospitalized and dead, it appears there is 0 benefit.

    Also how is risk / success calculated outside the tests? I will try one more with the UK. This summer, after the second wave the cases and deaths went way down. Last summer
    (2020) the cases went way down. Before vaccines and before natural immunity had the second wave to mature. ( I don’t know why nobody can see this right there on Worldometer web site) Was the reduction this summer due to vaccines only? What about herd immunity? What about seasonal factors?

  134. jim2 says:

    Fair question David A. Had a busy day, so skimped on the link. Here ya go …

    The researchers found that overall, Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna were highly effective against infection (76% and 86%, respectively) and hospitalization (85% and 91.6%, respectively) from January to July in Minnesota.

    However, during the month of July, the vaccines’ efficacy against infection appeared to decline in Minnesota, where the prevalence of the delta variant had increased from 0.7% in January to 70% in July. Specifically, the researchers found that during July, the Moderna vaccine appeared to have an estimated efficacy of 76% against infection, while the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine had an estimated efficacy of 42% against infection.

  135. David A says:

    EM and CD, thanks for the informative responses. So a question, if natural immunity is broader or more resistant in multiple ways, is it not more difficult for the virus to successfully mutate, ( more chance changes required in the right pattern) then it is for it to defeat the vaccine defenses?

    Apparently in several states 40 percent of the deer population had been infected. Apparently in numerous other animals as well. This does not bode well for containment without strong use of successful anti virals.

  136. jim2 says:

    COVID 19 won’t disappear with the current array of weapons, especially considering the animal reservoir. But I wouldn’t be surprised if we didn’t get such a weapon some day.

  137. David A says:

    Helpful Jim, yet with testing in the real world, I still don’t know what that means. On the Princess cruise there were about 2000 people in single shared rooms where one person was symptomatically infected, and the other person was either not infected or had zero infections. So were those thousand unaffected already 50 effective with zero vaccine? So I still do not understand how those numbers are formed, or the difference between absolute risk and relative risk. Apparently 80 percent of the Princess crisis had zero problems with Cov 19, yet we’re almost certainly exposed. Was that mystery non vaccine 80 percent effective?

  138. David A says:

    I find the 40 percent deer infected curious. I don’t know how much deer populations interact. I know they don’t wear masks (-; and would think they perhaps interact less then people, staying in particular ranges without great interaction. They don’t work together in factories offices have conventions etc..,

  139. David A says:

    “Without really any evidence beyond a hunch, I think using Ivermectin prevents disease while still letting your immune system learn about this bug.”

    That would be very cool. I don’t have it now, yet the studies clearly show it nicks down viral load and shortens infection

  140. cdquarles says:

    @David A,
    Absolute risk is the more important one. Relative risk can be highly misleading. True prevalence matters, and no-one seems to report that. Corona viruses are zoonotic. That means that they are not exclusive to their main host. They can and do “cross species”; and deer are herd animals. Once one in a family group or herd gets it, the others get exposed. Not all will get it, just like not all humans get it. If I am not mistaken, every mammalian species has one or more corona virus strains that parasitize it.

    Highly infectious or transmissible means that the minimum infectious dose is relatively small. Smaller doses tend to be easier for the host to deal with. Interspecies interactions range from predator-prey to neutral to symbiotic. “Good” infectious agents, like “good” parasites, propagate themselves best when they do not overly damage their hosts. Best interaction is a symbiotic one. Both species benefit from the relationship. “Life finds a way”, for be fruitful and multiply lest ye be replaced is also a thing. Thus that intricate and complicated chemical dance will see “breakouts”, where the new strain is more virulent; but that limits it. Host responses will push that strain toward neutrality, as much as possible.

    Given that natural diseases can be quite harmful, ways to guide host responses to prod pathogens into less harmful forms at a lesser risk are desired. Not always to those pan out. That psychopaths find that useful to gain power is also a risk. It is, in my opinion, better in the long term to let a disease run its course than give government too much power.

  141. jim2 says:

    CDQ said: That psychopaths find that useful to gain power is also a risk. It is, in my opinion, better in the long term to let a disease run its course than give government too much power.

    Amen to that!

  142. jim2 says:

    This new study shows that most convalescent COVID-19 patients mount durable antibodies, B cells, and T cells specific for SARS-CoV-2 up to 250 days. The kinetics of these responses provide an early indication for a favorable course ahead to achieve long-lived immunity.

    Because the cohort will be followed for 2–3 more years, they can build on these results to define the progression to long-lived immunity against this novel human coronavirus, which can guide rational responses when future virus outbreaks occur.

    The hallmark of the initial immune defense against SARS-CoV-2 is the emergence of antibodies recognizing the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein, including the RBD and NTD components of the S1 subunit, during the early phase of viral replication.

  143. jim2 says:

    With appropriate skepticism …

    The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention today released a study confirming the comparative effectiveness of COVID-19 vaccines versus natural immunity, including immunity gained from prior SARS-CoV-2 infection. Researchers found that, among hundreds of Kentucky residents with previous infections through June 2021, those who were unvaccinated had 2.34 times the odds of reinfection compared with those who were fully vaccinated. CDC says the research suggests that among people who have had COVID-19 previously, getting fully vaccinated provides additional protection against reinfection.

    A second CDC study, published concurrently, shows the extent to which vaccines prevented COVID-19-related hospitalizations among the highest risk age groups.

  144. jim2 says:

    From what we know, I think it’s obvious the best course from here is to let the virus run its course. A very large % of the population is either vaccinated or has had COVID. There is no reason for forced vaccinations, lock downs, or mandated mask wearing – or other restrictions. Trying to “stop the spread” is wrong headed, with the one exception if ICUs start getting over filled. I truly wish the medical establishment would ignore the various governments and just tell people about vitamins and zinc; and prescribe HCQ or IVM if some one gets it. The lady we know who is almost 80, got covid, got IVM from her doc – she is now doing fine. Just let it rip!

  145. YMMV says:

    “deer are herd animals”
    Yes and no. White tailed deer and mule deer yes, black tailed deer no. And there are others.

    But it seems a strange animal to be virus reservoir for humans, since close interactions are rare.
    My first guess would be dogs, but probably not significant in the spread because so few cases have been reported.

    But if anybody thinks there will ever be zero covid, it doesn’t take too many animals to keep the virus going until the next season.

  146. David A says:

    I will look at the CDC paper Jim. It contradicts so much of what is out there is

  147. David A says:

    New study from the Journal of Infection.

    Antibody dependent enhancement (ADE) of infection is a safety concern for vaccine strategies. In a recent publication, Li et al. (Cell 184 :1-17, 2021) have reported that infection-enhancing antibodies directed against the N-terminal domain (NTD) of the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein facilitate virus infection in vitro, but not in vivo. However, this study was performed with the original Wuhan/D614G strain.
    Since the Covid-19 pandemic is now dominated with Delta variants, we analyzed the interaction of facilitating antibodies with the NTD of these variants.
    Using molecular modelling approaches, we show that enhancing antibodies have a higher affinity for Delta variants than for Wuhan/D614G NTDs. We show that enhancing antibodies reinforce the binding of the spike trimer to the host cell membrane by clamping the NTD to lipid raft microdomains.
    This stabilizing mechanism may facilitate the conformational change that induces the demasking of the receptor binding domain. As the NTD is also targeted by neutralizing antibodies, our data suggest that the balance between neutralizing and facilitating antibodies in vaccinated individuals is in favor of neutralization for the original Wuhan/D614G strain.
    However, in the case of the Delta variant, neutralizing antibodies have a decreased affinity for the spike protein, whereas facilitating antibodies display a strikingly increased affinity.
    Thus, ADE may be a concern for people receiving vaccines based on the original Wuhan strain spike sequence (either mRNA or viral vectors).

    We already knew the vaccine creates higher numbers of non neutralizing antibodies then neutralizing ones. Is this as scary as it sounds? Could Israel with 95 percent of hospitalized fully vaccinated be experiencing this ?

  148. jim2 says:

    An RCT that shows no benefit under one set of circumstances may be wildly wrong about the overall situation. To show this, in 2018, a group of doctors once published a learned article showing that the parachute showed no benefit for people jumping out of planes. The fine print noted that further research would be advisable because their experiment was conducted at zero altitude and zero speed.

  149. AC Osborn says:

    jim2 says: 14 August 2021 at 12:55 pm
    That is the problem with charts of numbers only, they should be cases/million population.
    Tamil Nadu population 84 Million Uttar Pradesh population 200 Million.
    So multiply Tamil’s numbers by 2.4.
    Plus look at the spread of time, take approximately 3000 cases/day as a start and finish.
    Tamil Nadu started 03/04 finished 09/07 – 98 days
    Uttar Pradesh started 04/04 finished 27/05 – 54 days.

  150. AC Osborn says:

    Paul, Somerset says: 13 August 2021 at 6:16 pm
    That link is interesting, but the links in the comments are evn more interesting where you find more interesting links.
    I ended up here, which is a real eye opener, I never put much stock in the New World Order conspiracies.
    But the write up on the developers of the Oxford/Astra Zeneca vaccine is an excellent piece of journalism

    There investors and links to Uegenics groups is quite worrying.
    As is some of the data on testing, where the vaccine failed it’s very first study to protect monkeys from getting COVID. So they new right from the beginning it was “leaky”.

  151. AC Osborn says:

    Ossqss says: 14 August 2021 at 2:15 pm
    See my remark below yours, the comments to that post have interesting links to other interesting links.

  152. cdquarles says:

    The deer locally are white-tailed deer. I was not aware of black-tailed deer. Thanks for that!

  153. DoNoNorth says:

    David A says:
    14 August 2021 at 1:01 am

    “So I still do not understand how those numbers are formed, or the difference between absolute risk and relative risk.”

    In response to your comment on Relative Risk (RR) vs. Absolute Risk (AR). As its name implies – RR is simply the ratio of the difference between the control and test groups’ AR ratios divided by the control group’s AR. RR has no real world meaning UNLESS the context of the ratio is provided.

    AR can also be described as the actual, real-world, risk of an event occurring. While AR is also a ratio, it derives directly from the actual data, in this case ill/not ill, thus has a clear meaning upon which decisions can be made.

    Relative Risk is calculated by: RR = ((AR[control group] – AR[test group]) / AR[control group]) x 100.

    For example, that much-vaunted Pfizer RR = 95% about which so much chest thumping has occurred:

    + AR[control group] = 0.007456; 7/10 0f 1% of the un-injected folks caught a covid after being infected by the Wuhan virus.

    +AR[test group] = 0.000368; 4/100 of 1% of the injected folks caught a covid after being infected by the Wuhan virus.

    So, RR = ((0.007456 – 0.000368) / 0.007456) x 100 = 95.06%

    But that 95% ratio conveys NO information about an individual’s actual risk of catching a covid after being infected by the Wuhan virus, does it? I think this is why the drug companies and the government/medical bureaucracy love RR so much when selling any drug or trying to make us behave/not behave in a certain way. It’s easy to make something sound like the greatest invention since sliced bread or “OMG – look how dangerous doing something is vs. not doing it.

    With Absolute Risk (the real-world risk of an even occurring) it become possible for an individual to decide for himself what actions to take/not take.

    For ME – I consider the risk of catching a covid after infection to be very small if I remain un-injected. For someone else, any non-zero risk may be unacceptable, and they will choose to be injected.

  154. David A says:

    Thank you! Concerning “ +AR[test group] = 0.000368; 4/100 of 1% of the injected folks caught a covid after being infected by the Wuhan virus.

    So, RR = ((0.007456 – 0.000368) / 0.007456) x 100 = 95.06%””

    So a large difference between a very small number.
    And applied to real world numbers, often the background foundation of the numbers is not discussed, clearly articulated, or even properly formatted.

    BTW I posted this here above, but did not convey my concern, if I read it correctly, thus study indication that, to my understanding is stating that ADE is happening to some degree with the delta variant.

    Here is the pertinent part of that post.
    “ As the NTD is also targeted by neutralizing antibodies, our data suggest that the balance between neutralizing and facilitating antibodies in vaccinated individuals is in favor of neutralization for the original Wuhan/D614G strain.
    However, in the case of the Delta variant, neutralizing antibodies have a decreased affinity for the spike protein, whereas facilitating antibodies display a strikingly increased affinity.
    Thus, ADE may be a concern for people receiving vaccines based on the original Wuhan strain spike sequence (either mRNA or viral vectors).”.

    Also there is another aspect of the vaccine discussed in a pre print from the Mount Sinai medical center.

    “”We also found a co-dominance of mAbs targeting the NTD and RBD of SARS-CoV-2 spike and an original antigenic-sin like backboost to seasonal human coronaviruses OC43 and HKU1.”

    Sounds like the potential activation of a past virus that formerly had deadly SARS like symptoms.

    Thoughts always appreciated.

  155. The True Nolan says:

    Relative risk: People who win the $5 million lottery and DO NOT have a lawyer on monthly retainer are a hundred times more likely to go broke within three years. The RELATIVE RISK reduction of lottery winners by having a lawyer on retainer is 99%. Conclusion? WOW! I better go get my lawyer NOW in case I win the lottery!

    Absolute risk: My chance of winning the lottery is one in ten million. Having a lawyer on retainer (at $1000/month) is probably saving me from a one in ten million chance of losing $5 million dollars. Conclusion? What a moron!

  156. jim2 says:

    What are the symptoms of COVID 19 ADE? How do those compare to “just” COVID 19. Wouldn’t ADE put someone in the ICU in a matter of hours or a day or so? I don’t know, I’m just asking. If there are allegations that COVID ADE is occurring, we need to know why that is being said.

  157. David A says:

    I understand it is hard to prove, but observations required, as I understand, are decreasing neutralizing antibodies ( check, observed ) many non neutralizing antibodies that decline slower. ( check, observed) binding of non neutralizing antibodies to enable viral cellular access. ( something like this that the report I showed stated was observed)

    Symptoms, as vaccine ages reduced effectiveness in stopping symptomatic infections.
    ( Check, observed) Increased severity and frequency of illness in vaccinated when exposed to viral infections. ( Check in places like Israel.) Not yet seen, as exposure is also required so seasonal factors apply, put dramatic increase in mortality of vaccinated when infected. ( Not now, hopefully never)

    Just a tenderfoot understanding of the literature out there, and on the ground observations. I suppose Finally catastrophic results would happen, I think, in an ascending wave of increasing vaccinated illness and mortality, from the mean age from vaccines ( on a similar slope to the ascending distribution, but reversed as crossover infections increase as a reflection of the prior jabs increase. ( seasonal factors and anti viral usage could easily be factors modifying this)

  158. jim2 says:

    Not good news WRT determination of ADE vs disease as usual.

    ERD and ADE (of the second type described above) are often identified by clinical data, including symptom prevalence and disease severity, rather than by the specific molecular mechanisms that drive severe disease. The presence of complex feedback loops between different arms of the immune system makes it very difficult (although not impossible) to conclusively determine molecular mechanisms of ADE and ERD in human and animal studies, even if the clinical data supporting ADE and ERD are quite clear. Many different measurements and assays are used to track ADE and ERD, which can vary based on the specific virus, preclinical and/or clinical protocols, biological samples collected and in vitro techniques used.

    Respiratory ADE is a specific subset of ERD.

  159. AC Osborn says:

    jim2 says: 14 August 2021 at 8:30 pm
    “What are the symptoms of COVID 19 ADE?”

    That would surely depend on the severity of the ADE, if it is a slight enhancement then you will see more otherwise healthy & younger people being hospitalised.
    If it is very bad enhancement there could be mortality rates at anything up to 100%.

    I have just been looking at the animal trials of the Pfizer and Astra Zeneca vaccines.
    Neither was long term, neither exposed the monkeys to a later second wave of natural COVID, which is when ADE occurs.
    In fact the AZ trial only lasted 7 days and the monkeys were then killed for autopsies, hardly long enough to get a full diagnosis of COVID infection, which as we know can take 15 to 20 days to incubate.
    Even so 2 of the Vaccinated monkeys had COVID, so the trial was in fact a failure.

    Try finding the actual Pfizer study, it is VR-VTR-10671, what you get is other people analysis of the study, like HM Gov UK, the FDA and SIDP.
    Why are there links to the actual study not given?
    What I have found is that it looks as if 3 Monkey had COVID based on nasal swabs.

    Click to access Jeannette%20Bouchard%20mRNA%201.12.2021.pdf

  160. David A says:

    AC Osborn, if this pans out what they ignored or hid regarding the trials is, as the educated and articulate lady in the video says, beyond the comprehension of any sane mind. Also posted on the Black box thread…

  161. E.M.Smith says:

    @David A:

    Don’t really need to cross post between threads. Not that much traffic here and most folks check all of the articles. (Not bothered by it either, just giving context).

  162. philjourdan says:

    Not that much traffic here and most folks check all of the articles

    That is why I like it. I like WUWT, but he has a gazillion commenters. Old Chiefio here knows all his regulars and comments on their posts. This is a pub, and Chiefio is the barkeep. SO he has an opinion on everything and keeps the conversation flowing.

  163. David A says:

    Aye, just saw ACs post and it was directly related.
    Liked – “ This is a pub, and Chiefio is the barkeep. SO he has an opinion on everything and keeps the conversation flowing.“

    A place where anyone can disagree with respect, otherwise your off the island! Should be a lot more popular, IMV.

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