Know Your Aspe

Searching for Aspe

There was a comment from Murray Duffin that I’ve been holding in the “Moderation Queue”, not because of anything wrong with it, so much as that it really needed some “context” wrapped around it.

First off, not everyone reads everything nor remembers all of it forever (only the compulsive Aspe types ;-)

So a couple of times I’ve equated Aspe with Asperger’s Syndrome in a posting. But if you do a generic “search on it” you get things like:

ASPE Joins the Plumbing Efficiency Research Coalition On Monday, Feb. 21, ASPE became the sixth member organization of PERC. » Full Story
aspe.org

Yes, the American Society of Plumbing Engineers.
But no, I’m not the guy who designs toilet drains…

You also get:

American Society for Precision Engineering (ASPE)

The American Society for Precision Engineering (ASPE) focuses on many areas that are important in the research, design, development, manufacture and measurement of high …
aspe.net

Well, we are getting a bit closer, in that many of those engineers fixated on excessive precision and loads of numbers will likely be high function Aspies (an alternate spelling), but it’s still not going to get you to the answer you want.

Then there is:

American Society of Professional Estimators – ASPE

ASPE serves construction estimators by providing education, fellowship, and opportunity for professional development. Dedicated to the promotion of the profession of …
www.aspenational.org

Folks who will help you get more precise numbers for things that have no numbers and poor precision… so they will help your “precision guys” make more “professional plumbing”, or at least let them estimate how much of your money to take… but still, not what you were looking for…

ASPE – Association of Standardized Patient Educators

ASPE is the International Organization for Professionals in the Field of Simulated and Standardized Patient (SP) Methodology. Learn More
aspeducators.org

So now we’re drifting even further afield into folks who do medical training.. then we start in on things like:

Aspe – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Aspe is a town and municipality located in the comarca of Vinalopó Mitjà, in the province of Alicante, Spain. The town is located in the valley of the river …
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspe

And we’re off to Spain… And while they have a nice old church in the Mission Style:

Basilica in Aspe, Spain

Original Image

It’s also clear that the Wiki is not going to be of any help. No, to find out what Aspe means, you must put it in WITH what it means. Only then does the search engine find anything of much interest. Doing that, you also find that the abbreviated form can be, variously, Aspe, Aspie, Aspi, etc. Even then, it looks like Aspi and Aspie are somewhat more common. (Why make the abbreviation with an “i”? Perhaps so you don’t get calls for a plumber…)

To Murray’s Comment

OK, at this point it’s pretty clear that I need to do something to define what this “token” is that I’m using, and have it be where putting it into the “search box” in the upper right corner of this site will find the article. It’s also clear that Murray’s comment makes a nice “jumping off point”. Unfortunately, it’s taken me a couple of days to get the time to do it, which has left Murray to dangle; probably thinking I’m P.O’ed at him when it’s really just “time management” and being distracted by other “Oooh! A Shiny Thing!” events. (Yen rocketing up, then down, markets crashing, then stopping, nuclear meltdowns per the MSM that are no such thing, and a few more wars breaking out with us dumping bombs on folks. Other than that, not much… ;-)

So, ok, here is Murray’s comment that’s “en queue” for the thread:

https://chiefio.wordpress.com/2011/03/16/its-not-about-me/

(Which is where this discussion of Asperger’s, me, and the world began in earnest).

Delightful!! Stay with me. None of the following is meant in any deragatory way. You have used the term Aspe several times and I didn’t make a connection. However from your writings, your analytic style, your defensiveness in some cases, your amazingly detailed search for data/information and then unrecognized selective use and application of that information in non-technical analyses, your super analysis of technical data (like surface instrument temperature), and a few other oddities, I had concluded that you are a high functioning borderline autistic, and was just discussing you, relative to that conclusion, with my wife yesterday. Then it struck, Aspe = Asperger’s.

So at this point, Murray has had an “Ah Hah!” moment; and I’ve realized that not everyone has been following along with every post for the last 2 years…

(However, he’s put a few “symptoms” on his list that are “just wrong”. Aspies are not “defensive” in nature and there is no “unrecognized selective use”, it’s all fully recognized and deliberate use; that Murray doesn’t get the point of the use is “not my problem”… )

An important point to make here is that the connection is made between Autism and Asperger’s. And “borderline Autistic” is pretty much what Asperger’s is. Except that would be “plain Asperger’s” and I’m more of “borderline Asperger’s” so even further back the line. Why this matters is due to this being what is called a “Spectrum Disorder”.

We Bring The World DisOrder

Ok, first bit of “rant”. “Disorder”. How can you possibly call something where one of the defining characteristics is a penchant for excessive order and higher function, a “disorder”? Yet they do… Yes, at the more extreme ends it can be very “disorder” in nature. But the assumption here is that “we” are not “normal” and “they” are “normal” so “we” are “disordered”. Um, no.

So Aspies (I’ll be mixing up the spelling of it a bit so different searches will find the article and so folks will know the other mappings too) have coined the term Neurotypical as an alternative to “normal”. Why? Because you are all so… so… how to be polite… so “typical”… To find out more about the term, and what it means, just click on the word and the link will take you to a site that explains how you are seen by others…

But back at the point about “spectrum”. In fact, we are all, every one of us, even you, on a single spectrum. One end is anchored in the institutionalized highly dysfunctional Autistic (often driven there by NTs who frankly can drive some of us batty). The other end is anchored in folks who are so non-functional the other way that even NT’s class them as “disordered”, but in a different way. As you rise up from them, you reach the central group of folks called “normal” but they have all sorts of problems, just not ones classed as a ‘disorder’. Why? Because there are more of them and they get to vote on the definitions…

But in fact, you will find every trait of an Aspi somewhere in the “normal” community. It’s all a question of degree. How many and how strongly for the traits. For many fields of work, having more of the traits is highly beneficial. Being able to memorize an encyclopedia, for example, is helpful for passing stupid information retrieval “I.Q.” tests. The NT folks find this hard to do and the tests difficult. We find it fun to read the encyclopedia (though the second time is dull as we tend to remember it…) and stupid to take the “test”. But it’s “abnormal” to remember everything. So we’re “disordered” as we get really tired of doing brain deadening things like writing the same stupid story or sentences 20 times. NT’s need to do that kind of thing to learn something. For us, it’s just a form of torture. But complaints will be treated, sometimes with medication, badly. Can’t have folks who are undisciplined and don’t do their rote homework, after all…

So we are ALL on “A Spectrum” but only some of us are defined as being on “THE Spectrum”, or “disordered”. Just like we all have skin color that ranges from pitch black to translucent pink-white. While it is no longer PC to call blacks lesser people for their color, we still call albinos color a “defect”… So what color is your brain?…

So, along the way, I’ll have some references to Autism, and some to Asperger’s, and I’m not going to be keeping them strongly apart. They are different in degree, not so much in kind, but so is everything. Even black and white…

A Sidebar on Another Disorder

There is another interesting “spectrum” disorder that I think is an important analog. Epilepsy. Epileptics are stimulated to have a seizure by a light flashing at about 3 cycles per second. If you are strongly epileptic, it sets you off almost immediately. The lower the tendency to seizure, the longer the light takes. But the light is very annoying to folks with that trait. It aggravates. Far more than for “normal” folks. Well, the medical profession latched onto this as an interesting diagnostic, and some researchers wanted to find out who was MOST irritated by the light, but did NOT have seizures. Would they be the more dumb? The less physically coordinated? Did it map to low verbal skill? Clumsiness? Clearly some other precursor disorders. Perhaps even some sorts of mental retardation? We ought to identify them so we can remove them from dangerous occupations… So they ran their tests.

Then crapped their collective drawers…

THE Profession with the highest number of folks with the most tendency to “irritation” at the flashing light were professional airline pilots. Yes, those paragons of ability, both mental and physical. Those folks whom we trust daily with the lives of thousands. Well, that caused a bit of a ‘rethink’…

(Unfortunately, I don’t remember where I picked that up. Somewhere about 40+ years ago. Searching now does not turn up a reference in short order, so it’s buried under 1/2 century of ‘newer’ research…)

The conclusion was that:

The Gift

Whatever trait causes epilepsy when there is too much of it, causes exceptional performance when there is a lot of it, more than “normal”, but not too much.

It is my opinion that the same pattern holds for what makes an Aspe an Aspi and for High Function Autistics too. That’s why folks often call it “The Gift”.

From: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/3766697.stm

Michelangelo might have had it. So, too, may Einstein, Socrates and Jane Austen. All are claimed to have had Asperger’s syndrome, a form of autism. What is it about this developmental disorder that can lead to genius?
[…]
Instead, two medical experts have drawn this conclusion from studying contemporary accounts of the artist’s behaviour – his single-minded work routine, few friends and obsessional nature – and comparing it with traits displayed by adults who have been diagnosed today.

It’s a theory which has been rubbished by art historians, but which has piqued the interest of Eileen Hopkins, of the National Autistic Society. The artist’s meticulously observed figures and high work rate resonate with such a diagnosis.
[…]
The same posthumous diagnosis has been made of other historical figures, among them the scientists Charles Darwin, Isaac Newton, Albert Einstein and Marie Curie, the politician Eamon de Valera, the poet WB Yeats and Pop Art giant Andy Warhol.

Attention to detail

What is the link between this condition and creativity, be it in the arts or sciences?

Professor Michael Fitzgerald, of Dublin’s Trinity College, one of the experts who posed the Michelangelo theory, says it makes people more creative.

“People with it are generally hyper-focused, very persistent workaholics who tend to see things from detail to global rather than looking at the bigger picture first and then working backwards, as most people do.”

But Professor Simon Baron-Cohen, of Cambridge University, says it is more accurate to describe this creativity as “systemising” – a strong drive to analyse detail.

“This might be in mathematics, machines, natural phenomena or anatomy, to identify rules that govern a system and any variations in that system.”

Thus it is thought possible that some maths and physics experts, far from being bright but anti-social misfits, may actually have had Asperger’s. One whom Mr Baron-Cohen has helped diagnose is the British mathematician Richard Borcherds, the 1998 winner of the Field’s Medal – the Nobel Prize of the maths world.

The naturalist and TV presenter David Bellamy mentions in his autobiography that although undiagnosed, he believes he has a form of autism. And Microsoft boss Bill Gates’ personality quirks have been compared to those of an autistic.
[…]
On a lighter note, fictional characters said to display characteristics of those with Asperger’s include Mr Spock, Lisa Simpson, Mr Bean and Cliff from Cheers. And one of the school boys in Grange Hill, Martin Miller, has the condition and so has found himself in difficulty after taking a mate’s advice on girls literally.

“Mr Spock is an extreme example of someone driven by logic and systemising, but who has no interest in the feelings of others,” says Mr Baron-Cohen.

Notice it says “identify rules that govern a system ” not “fabricate rules that meet your goals” or “justify your already existing view of what it ought to be”. What IS comes first, then what we “want” later, perhaps.

But by all means, let’s “Fix it”… they must be broken…

One comment I’d make is that watching the “experts” try to explain it is like being a person who sees the world in color have folks who only see black and white try to describe it.

That discussion of “work from detail” and not seeing the big picture? Just sooo wrong. Yes, we see the detail. Incredible detail. We also see the whole. (At least, I do). Some folks are “top down” (what they call working from the “big picture” to detail) others are “bottom up” (what they call “systemising”). What I do is both, at the same time. Perhaps that’s what happens when you don’t have too much of The Gift. Perhaps those at the Autistic end DO ‘systemising’. I can’t speak for them. But I can say that most Aspies I’ve met are pretty darned good at seeing the whole picture.

Often, for me, the frustration is with how long it takes to translate that whole picture into serial sentence word form including the detail. The typical time I realize I’ve got The Gift and NTs don’t is exactly when the NTs are “working from detail” wandering in the forest of the symbol maze and NOT seeing that just over the hedge is the exit… I’m “outside their box” looking in and can just SEE where to “dig here!” to get out. I get “the flash”; then spend a few hours figuring out how to communicate it to the NTs…

OK, with that said, yes, I LOVE the detail. It has to be RIGHT. And RIGHT means the jigsaw pieces have to be all there, all in the right places, and all precisely placed. It’s not enough to put a bluish piece over near one sort of the same shape and say “It’s a sky piece so I think it goes there”. I look at it and see a tiny white fleck and know it’s specular reflection off water (and sometimes see the formulas for the math and the images of times and places where I read those books and…) and know about where it needs to go, down in the pond section, and then proceed to find the other pieces that match and get it in exactly the right place.

That’s NOT detail up, that’s what I call “middle out and ends in”. You have the big picture, you have some detail, those are both used to put it with its mates and place them on the board, then the assemble happens “in the middle”. (I’ll sometimes scan the pieces in the box and just see the one that goes somewhere and place it where it belongs. Harder pieces take more work ;-)

Detail without the flash is like those systematic “fishbone diagram” “root cause” analysis methods folks are forced to learn. Why bother when I can just SEE what’s wrong and fix it? But no, all the linear mind NTs demand that we must do things their way, plodding little scrap by plodding little detail hoping that if we follow all the crumb trails we can see the picture. Why not just step back and see it with all the detail?

At the same time, sometimes the system is so fascinating, it’s captivating. Watching sand flow, making the ‘mental model’ of how water flows around mud dams. As a child I spent hundreds of hours making mud dams in the gutter and watching water flow. To an NT, it looks like mindless fixation and detail fixation. To me it was absorbing “waterness” and “mudness” and just coming to know them. BOTH with intimate detail AND with “big picture”. So now when I see processes happening in the real world, the model runs, and I get “the flash” that says “That section of river bank is going to collapse in about 20 minutes, get the hell out.” The “systemising” is just the data loading step, not the whole package.

OK, back at Murray:

I mentioned in one of my replies some days ago that I have had a thesis running around in my mind of the relationship between people’s political bent, and other aspects of their mentality and mentation. You fit my idea perfectly. I haven’t wanted to bring it up, for fear that you would be offended by the suggestion, but evidently you are somewhere between acceptance of and pride in your difference. Good on you.

I’m not “between” anything. Flat out: It’s a gift I’m very glad to have. It makes me who I am and gives me superior abilities in many areas. It comes with a cost, but a very minor one and one I’m happy to pay. That cost is largely irritation at NTs who screw things up a lot, including most of the planet.

Is there a connection to political bent? I think so. And I think you are slowly sidling up to an understanding of it (but in that typical NT way of trying to call our way of seeing things slightly broken somehow).

Anyway old sport, I won’t continue this type of discussion, because we are wired sufficiently differently that we will never agree, and IMHO it is a question of wiring. At the end of the day, our failure to agree on issues like Obama and socialism is about you, and about me. You perceive the world through a filter very different from mine, as evidenced by the fact that you truly disbelieve, and therefore are unable to see that you do have a filter. You perceive associations and relationships and motivations etc through the filter of Aspergers. To you, your perceptions are right, and others’ are often “batshit”. C’est la vie.

First off, what I’d said was that my behaviours often drove others “batshit”, not that their ideas were same. But that aside…

What Murray has missed is the essential nature of Autism and Asperger’s. We ARE missing a filter. We DO just see and absorb “what is”. We are DRIVEN to high detail with fidelity and precision. In the limit case, like Rainman, memorizing a whole phone book perfectly. That is NOT a “filter”. Michelangelo did not “filter” his drawings of anatomy, they were as perfect as possible with the materials of the time. He could do no less.

So no, Murray, I don’t see the world “through the filter of Aspergers”. I see it unfiltered, in full detail, high definition, living color. Where we have problems is trying to see the “warpy world” seen by NTs through their “fun house mirror” lenses. Understanding why in the world I ought to do 20 math problems all of exactly the same form when I learned to do it on #1 and would now like to learn another new thing, not waste my life doing such stupid things. Understanding why lips say “I don’t need a gift” and the “right” thing to do is go get a gift. All the ‘social cues’ we ‘miss’ are the distortions and lies of normal ‘polite society’. The person who says “My, that is interesting” and means “I’m bored as hell with you telling me about 20 kinds of thermometer”… we are supposed to pick that up from the glance at the wrist watch or the mixed message from the eyes vs the lips. BUT we heard the words exactly and they said what they said. UNFILTERED. You could be looking at your watch to just check the time.

And no, our disagreement over Obama, and is he or is he not a socialist, is because you are driven first and foremost by what you want it to be, and I am driven only by the definition and the ‘fit’. I have no agenda and you are more agenda driven. You start from your belief, then rationalize. I start from no belief, but rather from a question. “Is it a fit?”. It has nothing to do with my “wiring” wanting any particular answer. As pointed out in comments on another thread, Einstein just wanted to know “IF I’m right”. Typical Aspi behaviour, and stronger in Autistics. You will often see this accurately shown in film. The Columbo or Monk characters where things just have to be “right” and “FIT” even if it is to their own detriment. So you don’t LIKE the answer, and reject it. I don’t care what the answer is, but it must be honest and accurate. (You will see more on “honesty” below).

I love reaching understanding, even when I can’t reach agreement. Lets get back to hard technical subjects where we can reach agreement.

cheers, Murray

Unfortunately, you have reached a false understanding. So no, I can’t let it go as a drive to completion and accuracy is also an Aspe trait. It’s like asking Mr. Spock to just agree to use 3 for Pi as you understand it’s something like that…

OK, with that said:

I think there is merit in your thesis that the nature of the mind lends itself to different political bent. FWIW, my observation is that American Democrats (and perhaps Progressives globally) work from an emotional position or response first then to a desired outcome then to actions to take and do not dwell much at all on principles, collateral effects, precedents and the impacts of same, or what history shows simply has never worked. They seem to miss both the “big picture” and the “details that don’t fit”.

So you get arguments of the form: “Someone must act” and “Think of the children” and “It’s cruel to kill animals” and “We have nothing to fear, but fear itself” (A nonsensical sentence if ever there were one; what about death from starvation? I’d call that worth fearing in a Great Depression.)

Republicans to some extent, but Libertarians even more so, tend to look at a much broader scope of detail and mechanism (so likely do attract more Aspies, but I’ve no data on that, other than a citation below). They tend to work from “Given these established principles, what can we reasonably do?”. They care about things like logical consistency and having all the pieces “fit”. So you find them looking at things like precedents for action, history of successes and failures.

So you get arguments of the form “The founders did not mean that in the constitution” and “There is no legal authority to do that under the commerce clause” and “That infringes on property rights” and “The budget must be balanced at some point. Soon.”

IMHO, it is due to higher use of a more analytical approach and less use of emotionalism. That will have some overlap with the Aspi tendency to be analytical and wanting things to “fit” and “be complete”.

So why would Libertarians have more attraction to Aspies? Perhaps because Thomas Jefferson was one. “Jeffersonian Libertarian” now makes a bit more sense.

From: http://www.twicegifted.net/id6.html

Did you know…Thomas Jefferson, 3rd U.S. president and author of the Declaration of Independence may have had Asperger’s Syndrome? For further information, go to http://www.amazon.com and look up the book, Diagnosing Jefferson.

So yes, I think your thesis has merit, it’s just the path you’ve taken to get to it, and the conclusions you have reached about Aspies that’s wrong.

But that’s OK, per the wiki, you can call me a Hitler:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_figures_sometimes_considered_autistic

Adolf Hitler – Austrian born, Nazi German politician, chancellor and dictator

(Folks on the “right” can fire back with Al Gore… though I think both are mistaken. I’ve not seen a lot of Aspe character in any politician I’ve ever met.)

Though I also have to note a couple of others they list:

Hans Christian Andersen – author
Lewis Carroll – writer, logician
Charles XII of Sweden – speculated to have had Asperger syndrome
Anne Claudine d’Arpajon, comtesse de Noailles – French governess, lady of honor, tutor
Charles Darwin – naturalist, associated with the theory of evolution by natural selection
Emily Dickinson – poet
Paul Dirac – British mathematician and physicist. He was Lucasian Professor of Mathematics at Cambridge University, 1933–1963 and a Fellow of St John’s College. Awarded the 1933 Nobel Prize in Physics for his work on the mathematical foundations of Quantum Mechanics.
Janet Frame – New Zealand author
James Joyce – author of Ulysses
Stanley Kubrick – filmmaker
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart – composer
Charles Richter – seismologist, creator of the eponymous scale of earthquake magnitude
Nikola Tesla – Serbian inventor, and electrical and mechanical engineer. Was able to mentally picture very detailed mechanisms; spoke 8 languages
Alan Turing – pioneer of computer sciences. He seemed to be a math savant and his lifestyle has many autism traits about it.
W. B. Yeats – poet and dramatist

Yes, definitely a “rough crowd” and not at all the kinds of folks you would expect to see the world without a lot of ‘filter’ in the way /sarcoff>.

Diagnosing Asperger’s

From: http://www.webmd.com/brain/autism/tc/aspergers-syndrome-symptoms

Parents often first notice the symptoms of Asperger’s syndrome when their child starts preschool and begins to interact with other children. Children with Asperger’s syndrome may:

Not pick up on social cues and may lack inborn social skills, such as being able to read others’ body language, start or maintain a conversation, and take turns talking.
Dislike any changes in routines.
Appear to lack empathy.
Be unable to recognize subtle differences in speech tone, pitch, and accent that alter the meaning of others’ speech. Thus, your child may not understand a joke or may take a sarcastic comment literally. Likewise, his or her speech may be flat and difficult to understand because it lacks tone, pitch, and accent.
Have a formal style of speaking that is advanced for his or her age. For example, the child may use the word “beckon” instead of “call” or the word “return” instead of “come back.”
Avoid eye contact or stare at others.
Have unusual facial expressions or postures.
Be preoccupied with only one or few interests, which he or she may be very knowledgeable about. Many children with Asperger’s syndrome are overly interested in parts of a whole or in unusual activities, such as designing houses, drawing highly detailed scenes, or studying astronomy. They may show an unusual interest in certain topics such as snakes, names of stars, or dinosaurs.
Talk a lot, usually about a favorite subject. One-sided conversations are common. Internal thoughts are often verbalized.
Have delayed motor development. Your child may be late in learning to use a fork or spoon, ride a bike, or catch a ball. He or she may have an awkward walk. Handwriting is often poor.
Have heightened sensitivity and become overstimulated by loud noises, lights, or strong tastes or textures.

OK, one thing to note: They do manage to say “Appear” to lack empathy. IMHO, many of these “symptoms” are just an NT not knowing what’s going on. I have intense empathy. But I’ve learned to shut it down and bottle it up as it brings too many mixed messages (about the social lies people tell) and too much pain. I can let it run with animals and with folks who are trusted, then it’s an amazing gift, too. At the bottom is a video about an Autistic who describes the empathy with cows.

And of course, it’s a disorder to be able to design a house as a child, or to name all the constellations and know how the solar system works and use “big words”…. and to want to do those things. Look, watching a ball bounce or keys rattle is interesting for about 10 seconds. Then I’ve absorbed ‘ball bounce’ and ‘key rattle’. NEXT! Learning to design a house takes a bit longer, so is more interesting. (At 7 I helped take apart and put back together a barn / garage. Yes, we pulled the nails out and reused them. That Amish frugal thing… and in the process I learned how to make wood frame structures and make nails and make lumber and make and mix and pour cement and install electrical wiring. I was “wiring hot” at age 7. Makes playing “catch” seem really stupid and boring. So it’s a ‘disorder’ to be able to do construction trades, several, at 7.)

As a kid I did “stare at folks”. This is interpreted as something broken. In fact, what I was doing was using very broad scan vision to pick up every detail all around me. The persons face, body, clothes, texture, weave, lighting, room contents, how their hair moved as they spoke. Everything. You can’t do that with a normal “scan and stop, periodic eye contact”. I learned how to do that as the “stare” spooks some folks and others think you are broken. It’s harder, but I now do a ‘scan and stop’ while picking up all the detail.

The “one sided conversation” comes partly from a need for completion. Someone asks “How does an engine work?” and you tell them. Unfortunately, that’s about a 40 page data dump. So that’s what you do. Only later did I learn that when someone asks “How does an engine work?” they don’t really want to know. What they want is some broken mis-fit puzzle piece, so you are instead supposed to say “Fuel burns and fire turns the engine”. That’s wrong, but it’s what they want.

Similarly, the “one or a few interests”. It takes time to absorb everything there is to know about radios, or dinosaurs. I’ve had a hundred passions. Then again, I’ve had 50+ years, so that’s about 2 a year. A 6 year old spending half the year fixated on “ants” causes some folks concern. To me, it’s just “completion”. Some folks spend 6 years getting a Ph.D. in ants. I’d figure they would be happy to know that an Aspe can pick it up in 6 months instead, but no, we must be broken.

OK, there’s more, but we’ll skip it and move on to post childhood. But I do note they realize that Aspe means more “The Gift” and less “issues” than with Autism

Although the condition is in some ways similar to autism, a child with Asperger’s syndrome typically has normal language and intellectual development. Also, those with Asperger’s syndrome typically make more of an effort than those with autism to make friends and engage in activities with others.

Though I’d not call the intellectual development of the above listed Aspe/Autistics as “normal” nor “typical”… but rather more to the gifted side…

Symptoms during adolescent and teen years

Most symptoms persist through the teen years. And although teens with Asperger’s can begin to learn those social skills they lack, communication often remains difficult. They will probably continue to have difficulty “reading” others’ behavior.

Your teen with Asperger’s syndrome (like other teens) will want friends but may feel shy or intimidated when approaching other teens. He or she may feel “different” from others. Although most teens place emphasis on being and looking “cool,” teens with Asperger’s may find it frustrating and emotionally draining to try to fit in. They may be immature for their age and be naive and too trusting, which can lead to teasing and bullying.

All of these difficulties can cause teens with Asperger’s to become withdrawn and socially isolated and to have depression or anxiety.

But some teens with Asperger’s syndrome are able to make and keep a few close friends through the school years. Some of the classic Asperger’s traits may also work to the benefit of your teen. Teens with Asperger’s are typically uninterested in following social norms, fads, or conventional thinking, allowing creative thinking and the pursuit of original interests and goals. Their preference for rules and honesty may lead them to excel in the classroom and as citizens.

At this point some percentage of the folks reading this will be seeing themselves. Many of the folks here are very bright. That, IMHO, means there will be higher than normal odds of a ‘match’ to the above.

So you have a very bright, trusting and intensely focused kid who can tell you everything in the encyclopedia about whatever has interested them who’s being bullied, and you are surprised they feel like they don’t fit in? It’s called “Reality”, it’s not a delusional state…

Oh, and notice that “defensiveness” is not one of the “symptoms”. (Though being very persistent in showing when something is a matter of factual data and not a personal opinion would be. To misinterpret my focus on what IS, rather than accepting arguments “to the person”; as “defensiveness” is a typical NT behaviour. Perhaps we can all chip in and buy Murray some “couch time” to help fix his “misplaced focus on people instead of facts”…)

I’d just point out that I hate stupid rules. intelligent ones can be helpful. I think they are wrong in thinking we like rules, we just believe people in authority when they tell us “these are the rules” so tend to use them. Someone says “If you are bullied tell the teacher” and that’s what you do. So for a few years you get beat up and tell the teacher… and nothing is ever fixed. Eventually you catch on that the NTs have a “feel good” rule, that’s broken, and they lie about it, both to you and to each other. But until then, you think the rule is what you are supposed to do, so you do it. Doesn’t mean you have a preference for it. I always prefered personal liberty and freedom… Also a lot of Aspes, once they realize the rules are trash, often go on to things like being Goth… not exactly “rule based”…

Eventually you go “off page” and learn to make your own rules. Like the kid in the video on this page.

http://hotair.com/archives/2011/03/15/video-the-bully-body-slam/

(The youtube version was taken down, and I’m not interested in learning ‘yet another embed’ method at the moment, so you get to hit the link to watch the video. It shows a small kid punching a bigger kid who eventually gets tired of it and body slams the bully to the ground).

The odds are that somewhere in the past of the kid being punched there are adults who told him “It’s bad to fight” and “Don’t fight” and “If a bully picks on you tell {list of useless people}”. He’s probably followed their “rules” for a few years. Aspies are often “bullied” as stated above. Eventually we learn that the “rules” are lies. Then this happens.

I had my moment too. Now nobody gets a ‘free shot’. Pick a fight, I’m not going to accept it. Zero lag time response and full on “get ‘er done”. That is not being “defensive” either, though it is using defense skills. It is simply learning what works in reality, and what are lies and errors.

And yes, we are uninterested in social norms and fads. Nehru Jackets? Bellbottoms? Bobby Socks? Madonna? J-lo? Are you kidding me? They are just so stupid. We find it amazing that NTs do that stuff. And we won’t even get into the whole ‘wigs in the 1700s’ or Egyptian shaved heads or coats with tails and top hats or Team Colors… folks actually get into fights over who can move an inflated lump of animal skin into which end of a field. If that is not madness, I don’t know what is. And you are surprised we are uninterested in joining in your delusional madness?… So the NT’s define that as a “symptom”…

Symptoms in adulthood

Asperger’s syndrome is a lifelong condition, although it tends to stabilize over time, and improvements are often seen. Adults usually obtain a better understanding of their own strengths and weaknesses. They are able to learn social skills and how to read others’ social cues. Many people with Asperger’s syndrome marry and have children.

Some traits that are typical of Asperger’s syndrome, such as attention to detail and focused interests, can increase chances of university and career success. Many people with Asperger’s seem to be fascinated with technology, and a common career choice is engineering. But scientific careers are by no means the only areas where people with Asperger’s excel. Indeed, many respected historical figures have had symptoms of Asperger’s, including Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, Albert Einstein, Marie Curie, and Thomas Jefferson.

For “read others’ social cues” substitute “Learn all the usual patterns of social lying” and I’m in agreement.

Oh, and how nice of them to grant permission that we might, just maybe, be able to “marry and have children”…

OK, at this point we see our “little professors” grow up and become real professors. Largely technical, but also in arts. And it’s so comforting to know that professors, engineers, scientists, and gifted composers can “marry and have children”… almost like a normal person…

My Perspective

From my point of view, I was thrown into daily prison with violent inmates for 12 years of my life between age 5 and 18. I had no recourse, and I could not get any help from anyone. The “advice” I got was largely platitudes and other useless forms of “social lying”. I was forced, against my will, to perform mind numbing stupid rituals for most of my day in the presence of people with whom I shared nearly nothing. Pointing out these facts to the “responsible authorities” gets more platitudes and a load of “stupid rules” (like “The State Mandates” this and that… or policy says you must…).

When I was uninterested in performing more stupider rituals, like cheering at the daily bullies as they fought over a piece of inflated dead animal skin, I was deemed “socially awkward”. When I believed adults advice, and it was wrong, I was a bit “slow to catch on” and continued to believe them for far too long. That makes me “naive”, I guess. As you can imagine, this can make you a bit unhappy… so “depression” is a “symptom”…

So how about if, instead, we just accept that some of us are bit brighter than the others. We like to absorb all of Asimov over a single marathon in the town library, and maybe it is far better for us to do that, than to be forced to read 2 paragraphs out loud in class and then sit slowly going mad as 24 other kids do a crappy job of reading their 2 paragraphs when we already read the whole damn book in one day…

And maybe, just maybe, it isn’t US who are broken, but the system that tortures us for having The Gift.

(BTW, Asimov is also listed as being an Aspe as well; and his Mnemonic Service describes what looks to me like the typical “spectrum” trait of absorbing lots of detail and remembering it.)

Another Perspective

This is a view from what is typically thought of as the ‘completely broken’ end of the spectrum. I was always seen as “gifted”, but many Autistics are seen as retarded and demented. I had very early language development, while Autistics may never learn to talk, but often start late. So we are a long way from each other. Still, I understand where “she comes from”… I was much more ‘social’ and liked other kids, but the gap between us was sometimes hard to bridge. I got along much better with the adults around me who could hold deep and technical conversations. So there are also significant gaps between Aspes and Autistics.

I tend to be ’emotionally flat’. This lady has full blown Autism and had ‘fear issues’. I watched a rather good movie about her and the first clip below is from that movie. The other clips are of the actual person, being herself. She ‘connected’ with cows. She knows how they think. She was driven by that empathy to find a way to make the slaughter of cattle more humane. To take the fear out of the process for the cows. Along the way she became world famous.

If you eat beef, odds are very high that it comes from a cow who was processed through a facility using her designs, insights, and based on her empathy with cows. If you watch this, you will likely gain a better understanding of The Gift. Also note what she says about watching sand flow. It’s a very complex and interesting model, and it’s very interesting to ‘be the sand’… IMHO, some of her tendency to fear is a personal issue or an autism issue more than a generic trait of the spectrum. In part 4 she spends some time on ‘sensory overload’. IMHO the ‘not connected’ explanation is not correct, the sensory overload point gives the clue. The nerves are working way too well. At “just enough” added nerve function, it’s an advantage, at “way to much” added gain, it’s very problematic, and parts of the brain try to damp the excess by turning it down.

I give you Temple Grandin, Ph.D and Autistic:

This clip is from the HBO move about her and captures much of the essence in a couple of minutes

These are parts 1-5 of a BBC show, each about 9 minutes.

In Conclusion

My point in all this? To give a quick overview of the nature of the difference. That it IS a greater awareness of the facts, a greater depth and precision in the detail, a finer accuracy of the search, and a greater honesty and fidelity to the data. That is the antithesis of a ‘filter’; and when 9 times out of 10, or sometimes much more, TESTING the conclusions shows that method more right, and the NT way more “warped”, well, after a while you might just start to be unwilling to trust the assertions from an NT that “you are wrong and it is because of how you think”.

Just ask Temple Grandin about all those folks who could not see what she saw and told her she must be wrong. And ask all the folks who now follow her advice to get the best results possible. An entire industry “had it wrong” and they told her she was wrong… But she could not turn away from the truth so easily…

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