The other day on some TV show there was a discussion of a psychopath or sociopath and the sociopath checklist was stated (or part of it) and as it matched some of the ‘hero’ behaviours, the humorous question was asked if they were a sociopath? (Very rough paraphrase of the plot line…)
What caught my attention was that on most of the items listed, the Aspe (high function Asperger’s) traits would be the exact opposite.
This left me to ponder the unanswerable question: Is ‘sociopath’ on the far opposite end of a spectrum from Aspe?
(For folks wondering what an Aspe is, just watch The Big Bang Theory on TV. It does a fair job of showing the stereotypical “Geek” form that represents many Aspe traits…)
So, what are the “sociopath” or “psychopath” checklist items? I’ve seen a couple of variations, but most of them follow this list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hare_Psychopathy_Checklist
Factor 1: Personality “Aggressive narcissism”
Glibness/superficial charm
Grandiose sense of self-worth
Pathological lying
Cunning/manipulative
Lack of remorse or guilt
Shallow affect (genuine emotion is short-lived and egocentric)
Callousness; lack of empathy
Failure to accept responsibility for own actions
Factor 2: Case history “Socially deviant lifestyle”.
Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
Parasitic lifestyle
Poor behavioral control
Lack of realistic long-term goals
Impulsivity
Irresponsibility
Juvenile delinquency
Early behavior problems
Revocation of conditional release
Traits not correlated with either factor
Promiscuous sexual behavior
Many short-term marital relationships
Criminal versatility
Acquired behavioural sociopathy/sociological conditioning (Item 21: a newly identified trait i.e. a person relying on sociological strategies and tricks to deceive)
So, going through the list:
1) Personality
Superficial charm: Rarely are geeks thought to be ‘charming’, superficial or otherwise…
Grandiose sense of self worth: Geeks are pretty much renowned for poor self esteem… Occasionally colored by an abstract understanding that they have a higher I.Q. than average; yet somehow not able to translate that into actual self worth. Exactly the opposite of the psychopath who is often of far lower ability than their inflated sense of self worth justifies.
Pathological Lying: One of the major traits of the Aspe is the befuddlement at the “polite lie”. We are often ridiculed for our tendency to simply state the truth. You see this gag used a lot in The Big Bang Theory. Someone asks “how do you think I look” and the answer is likely to be “like you just woke up and need coffee”… if that is, in fact, how they look ;-)
Cunning / manipulative: One of the things that stands out most for Aspe’s is the complete lack of ‘cunning’. Often easily manipulated by folks who choose to deceive. Over time “we learn” to cope with it, but the social manipulation game is usually weak, at best. Often the clumsy execution is transparent to others (in stark contrast to the sociopath).
Lack of remorse or guilt: This is also a bit tricky. Very strong cases of Aspergers may well show little signs of remorse or guilt, yet often Aspes are soaked in guilt, even when not deserved. I suspect that the strong cases are feeling the same way, just very under communicative about it. Basically, the ‘fear of guilt’ and ‘fear of remorse’ are often seen as drivers. Watch a car load of geeks trying to pick a place to eat and it’s pretty clear nobody wants remorse over choosing badly ;-)
Shallow Affect: This one is going to be controversial. Why? Because the classical view of Autism and Aspe’s is that empathy and emotions are low. I assert that the actual emotions are quite high, so Aspe’s work to dampen the volume they feel and this is perceived by others are ‘flat affect’; but the actual feelings are quite strong. An emotion, once evoked, can linger for days…
Empathy: As above. Empathy with animals, in particular, can be spectacularly high. That NTs don’t SEE it, does not mean it is gone… Often the fact that one does not indulge in “social lying” is seen as lack of empathy. It isn’t. It just means we think it’s patently obvious if someone is fat and it would be stupid and clearly lying to say “No, you’re not fat” when everyone can see it is a lie. The fat person ought to be aware of this and accepting of their truth. ( I was. ) I can have empathy for someone who ‘has issues’ even while being honest about them.
Failure to accept responsibility: Geeks typically accept responsibility for things that are not even remotely theirs. You see this in how bullies will assert that they deserve to be hit for being geeks… and we figure it’s our responsibility to become more ‘cool’… a fools errand if ever there was one.
2) Lifestyle
Need for stimulation / prone to boredom: Well, on the one hand it’s easy to become bored when you learn things really really fast… on the other hand, the stereotypical trait of Aspe’s and Autistic folks is a tendency to do things like memorize the phone book or read the encyclopedia. We’re especially good at academic stuff (for us High Function types) since we’re able to do all those things that are so boring they drive NTs batty. Like accounting, statistics, chemistry, etc. So while we are a bit prone to boredom, just about anything can be ‘enough’ stimulation. Even a phone book… Often folks with a harder case specifically seek out low stimulation environments. Away from crowds, noise, etc. “Hide in their room” is a common phrase…
Parasitic Lifestyle: This one, too, is a bit mixed. While Aspe’s are rarely parasitic as a strategy (where sociopaths often use it as a deliberate exploitative process) some low function Aspe’s are dependent on others (even if they would rather not be). So if it is ‘parasitic’ by design, well, that’s not us.
Poor behavioural control: Also a bit orthogonal. At the extreme case of Autistic, behaviour can be very disruptive. At the high function Aspe end, “over control” is more typical. The highly reserved ‘little professor’…
Lack of realistic long term goals: This one is more problematic. Aspe’s may have long term goals, or may have few at all. Generally, they tend to bifurcate. Either not much goal driven behaviour, or very detailed goals that are achieved with painful precision. (High function tend to more goal driven behaviour). I think the point here is that sociopaths have goals like “dominate western civilization”: Generally not likely to be achievable. While Aspe’s often have goals set below what they can achieve (or have little goal setting at all).
Impulsivity and Irresponsibility: Aspe’s like things to be consistent. While there is what looks like impulsive behaviour in Austistics, often it is a desire to hold to a very non-impulsive regimen despite others wanting change. Remember in Rainman how he wanted specific foods on particular days? Or in The Big Bang Theory how one character MUST sit in the same seat? That’s the exact opposite o ‘impulsivity’. Many high function Aspe’s rise to high levels of responsibility. ( Folks like Thomas Jefferson). Typically we’re the sort who stay after the party to clean up…
Juvenile Delinquency and early behaviour problems: Well, Aspe’s are often first described as “little professors”. Typically not your usual ‘party animal’ looking to tear things up. Often quiet and shy. Overly formal and polite. Austistics can be classed as having ‘behaviour problems’, but typically it is things like ‘repetitive moving’ or ‘failure to follow directions’; not malicious planned destructive acts. So, IMHO, the specifics matter here, and the specifics are quite different. It’s typically the JD’s that beat up the geeks…
Revocation of Conditional Release: Well, as we don’t typically get busted, we don’t typically have to deal with ‘conditional release’ in any case ;-)
3) Other
Promiscuous sexual behaviour: Are you kidding me? THE running joke on The Big Bang Theory is that geeks are lucky to have ANY sexual behaviour that isn’t a fantasy. Shy, withdrawn, sensitive. That’s the kind of term typically applied to Aspe’s.
Many short-term marital relationships: If an Aspe gets married, it tends to be forever. We don’t like change in our environment, after all… There was a wonderful line in The Big Bang Theory where one of the geeks breaks up with the ‘girl across the hall’ and one of the geek roommates asks her if they will still be friends. When she says ‘yes’, His answer is “Oh good, I’ve put a great deal of effort into accommodating you into my life and I’d hate to think it would be wasted.” Showing both the ‘pathological honesty’ and the resistance to change in relationships…
Criminal versatility and Acquired Sociopathology: From folks who have trouble with sarcasm you are just not going to get ‘acquired socio’ anything much! It’s just so antithetical to the whole persona. Folks who want things ordered, structured, organized; who are not fond of changes in their environment and routine; folks who have to work at some aspects of ‘sociology’ are just not the ones to be using and manipulating it for personal gain.
In Conclusion
While I think it would take a lot more polish to make this a clean thesis; I also think there is enough ‘there there’ to make a starting case that there is a spectrum with psychopaths-sociopaths on one end, and with Aspe’s about as far away as you can get on the other end of that particular scale.
This, of course, begs one very important question:
Are you really sure that the midpoint where most neurotypicals are to be found is “normal” and not just “the mean”? Can you really state with certainty that there is not a necessary level of, oh, “sexual promiscuity” or “superficial charm” or maybe even “cunning and lying” that confers enough advantage to become ‘the norm’ even if it is “wrong”? Think about it…
Just one person’s view from a couple of sigmas to the right end of the bell curve…
Musings from the Chiefio 
@ E.M.
Perhaps the most basic reason for the opposing nature of sociopath and aspie is that for the aspie, “The Truth Matters.” That s why, when the potential mates says “Does this dress make my butt look big?” the aspie has no choice but to answer, “Yes, actually it does.” After all… The Truth Matters. There is no desire to hurt someone’s feelings; just the opposite. But given a choice between hurting feelings or telling a lie, who would choose to lie. You can’t, not if The Truth Matters. Because the truth matters, aspies develope the habit of looking for it and once developed, it is almost impossible to undevelope it. An aspie cannot watch a piltical add with the swelling martial music and the happy family gathered around their apple pie without saying, “What a load of BUNK! Doesn’t anyone remember that Congressman So-and-so voted for the ‘Let’s Taser Children Because We Can’ bill?” Meanwhile, the NTs watch the same ad and think, “Wow! What a swell guy!”
Aspies care about the truth. NTs care about what the hive mind thinks. Sociopaths only care about themselves.
And by the way, you say, “Just one person’s view from a couple of sigmas to the right end of the bell curve… ”
You might need to add about three more sigmas to that.
@E.M.: Your deep sarcasm and sharp edged mind seems to have keenly described a group of selected human beings, which in SA we call: Those who believe themselves to be “the mother of Adam” (who obviously didn´t have a mother), and who, consequently, feel themselves an urgent call “to save humanity” from whatever they imagine: from smoking up to global warming. These peculiar beings get often associated, or, instead, are invited to become associated as “initiates” of some kind of “secret societies” created by them on purpose, since the 1700´s, by that and more peculiar elite, whose only purpose in life, from aeons ago, is to take the fruits of other peoples´ personal efforts to survive on this planet, and turn it into physical metallic gold, which they adore and love over any other thing on earth and save it in fiscal paradises. It has happened before many, many times; then, it is obvious now that you, inhabitants of the so called, and former, “developed world”, will have to suffer poverty for a long while in order to pay for this elite´s dearest possesion: Shining and brilliant gold. Surely, as you are, and you have been, always, hard working people, you will eventually overcome this “poverty” not caused by yourselves….and a new cycle will begin….., of course, before that happens, some of the members of that group, of course not the leaders, which are only a few, will deeply suffer the consequences of their comrades´actions, as it happened recently in history with those who suffered while their comrades were happily and conveniently accomodated in a new land.
Oh yeah, there are characters other than Penny, guess I will have to widen my focus. :)
E.M.: fascinating and insightful. Thanks. As you say, it may need more polish but it’s already got real substance. It’s a “take” on things that simply wouldn’t have occurred to me but, once you lay it out, it makes a lot of sense. As with many things, it becomes easier to understand things when you explore the boundary conditions for them. By talking about Aspe, we get a better sense of what sociopaths “look like” and vice versa. Of the two types (spectral ranges, really), I sure know which I prefer.
“Are you really sure that the midpoint where most neurotypicals are to be found is “normal” and not just “the mean”?”
Good question. Is it a linear spectrum with “normal” covering some middle range or is it a ring with “normal” isolated in the center and with connections of varying strength to multiple points on the ring? I think the latter model might more realistically portray the multi-dimensional nature of personality.
BTW, if you hit that ‘neurotypical’ link at the end of the article there is a rather fun parody of the way Aspes are typically described. Basically, a ‘back at you’ description of NTs cast in the form they apply to Aspes…
@Jason Calley:
I’ve seen a management friend at social events walk up to a ‘superior’ and indulge in what, to me, is grossly obvious “sucking up flattery” that is a patent lie. Someone did that to me, I’d class them in the “suck up – don’t believe their puff” group. Yet by and large the “bosses” just love it. All the mutual asymmetric grooming behaviour they could ever want. Just makes my skin crawl…
Watching political events is like the same thing on steroids…
But I think you’ve ‘got it’ in that I often say “The Truth Just Is. -E.M.Smith”
@Adolfo:
Well, unfortunately, I’m pretty sure the rest of the world is going to have the worst of it when the SHTF moment comes. Why? Always has… If we all take a 50% cut in ‘lifestyle’ in a global catastrophe, I need to ‘get by’ with only 2 old Mercedes and meat for every other meal… Someone in the 3 rd world living on beans and rice gets to choose which child to let die…
So no, the world isn’t fair, and yes, we’ve collectively screwed things up (in part with the ‘elite’ making stupid decisions to aggrandize themselves at the cost of the collective welfare) but I don’t think any of that will reduce the impact of a major catastrophe nor change the typical distribution. i.e. We’ll all suffer, but the poor will suffer most. Pharaoh will eat and survive, even if it is the children of the poor on the menu… Yet if you look at the collapse of the Old Kingdom (circa 2200 BC) you find that the collapse was followed by a return of the Pharaohs; however: They were no long seen as ‘gods’ and were not ‘responsible’ for making the Nile flow and fertilize the lands with the annual flood… Basically, they got chastened a bit. (Our present
leachespolitical class could learn from the Pharaohs of the Old Kingdom that It’s a Bad Idea to claim you control the weather… )At any rate, there will always be thugs who grasp after social power as long as there are people. The Masses can try to limit the damage those particular sociopaths do as they take control of government (via attempting to limit the power of governments); but eventually we end up back under the yoke of tyranny. It’s only a matter of time, if history is our guide. Similar it is only a matter of time until such empires fall. Ask Akkad and Pharaoh… Only the wrapper changes, not the contents of the box.
@Jerry:
Yes, there are characters other than Penny… though I can’t seem to remember their names ;-)
@Owen Hughes:
I’m glad to hear there is ‘enough there there’ to make it clear. I think there is a relationship, I’m just not sure if “abnormal” ought to be both ends, or the line segment away from one particular end ;-) Then again, I suspect the sociopath thinks were all abnormal too… It would be interesting if a study of Aspes and Autisitics could lead to a cure for sociopathology too… (just invert the drugs ;-)
@Gary:
Don’t think I want to be on a ring if that puts me closer to the sociopaths (via a wrap around…). Now make it a disk with ‘normal’ in the middle of the disk and various ‘abnormals’ on radii out then I could see it… Me on one side, Autistics ‘nearby’ but a bit to the side. Sociopaths on the far side of the disk. NTs scattered over the body of the disk…
I suppose you could even add in a vertical deflection “bumps” for some other aspects too… If you wanted to go way ‘over the top’ you could make it a sphere with a warped bumpy surface, but I doubt if folks would ‘read it’ well ;-) unless of course we resurrected phrenology ;-)
“Are you really sure that the midpoint where most neurotypicals are to be found is “normal” and not just “the mean”? Can you really state with certainty that there is not a necessary level of, oh, “sexual promiscuity” or “superficial charm” or maybe even “cunning and lying” that confers enough advantage to become ‘the norm’ even if it is “wrong”?”
Using the “Bell Curve”, which is typically used for such things, there is only one center “point” and it is infinitely small; no room for anyone but me at the moment.
PS: That was a ;-) for anyone not in familiar with western humor.
Pascvaks Using the “Bell Curve”, which is typically used for such things, there is only one center “point” and it is infinitely small; no room for anyone but me at the moment.
What if you are not in the middle?, :-) Chances are, thanks God, we are not in the middle, at the zenit, we are just commoners, we have common sense, that is why we do not like to be at such heights, because we know that the higher you are the higher from where to fall down…
@ E.M. and Pascvacs “Can you really state with certainty that there is not a necessary level of, oh, “sexual promiscuity” or “superficial charm” or maybe even “cunning and lying” that confers enough advantage to become ‘the norm’ even if it is “wrong”?”
I used to wonder why biology had evolved us with the disconcerting pattern of growing old and decrepit. I kept thinking, “Well, if we had a standard life of 1000 years, wouldn’t that give us an advantage in the reproductive race?” Ah, my naive youth… I finally figured out that old age makes good evolutionary sense. Chances are, even with perfect biology, we will get killed by a saber-tooth or a rockfall accident by the time we are forty or fifty years old, so trying (evolutionarily speaking) to maximize organism life was a loosing game. Instead we maximize chance of survival for a forty or fifty year span. The joke is that some of the things that promote a vigorous youth are the same things that promote a death at fifty. Quick cell reproduction and healing? Good at first, but eventually your cells reproduce into cancer. Strong immune system? Good idea… but eventually your immune system attacks your own connective tissue. You get the idea.
I think that human cultures follow a similar pattern. Sociopaths will eventually kill a successful culture — but early on, when a culture is carving out a place for itself, those same sociopaths form a good tool for conquest and theft of resources from competing cultures. Nice to have as military leaders under the right conditions too. Aspies? Darned useful — and if I had to choose between an Aspie or a sociopath, I know which I would choose. On the other hand, would our society function with only Aspies? Difficult question.
Just like sociopaths can eventually destroy a culture — even if they help in the short run or in special circumstances – other traits may be good short term. The whole multi-cultural thing is a wonderful advantage to a fast growing culture. It helps to incorporate the best traits of other people. In the long run it can kill a culture if allowed to grow unchecked. I suspect that many of the things that are a problem with current Western culture are the result of traits that were important and helpful to the West for a few centuries, but have now become cancers.
Is being a sociopath the opposite of being Aspe?
Short answer- No.
Some Thoughts (long answer?) – back to the bell curve, etc.
Consider that the bell curve represents what we have and not the full range of possibilities. If so, things like wars, where we need kids to do our dying for us, tend to change the composition of the curve, since not everyone has “whatever we say it takes” to qualify for battle. Sometimes we say of WWI, Europe lost the best of a full generation on Flander’s Fields (and many other places as well). Same is true of every conflict and will be for sometime to come I would think.
If, on the other hand, the bell curve represents the full range of possibilities and not what we have, then it’s going to look a little like a spectrograph with some missing data where chunks have died because of things like wars.
Stable populations would ‘tend’ to have the full spectrum, if all else were equal (but when is that ever true?). Growing populations would tend to resemble declining populations as both would have similiar but different ups and downs. I would think we would also have differences in the size of the bell curves in such instances.
Makes you wonder, ‘what is normal?’ Is Europes bell curve the same as the US bell curve?. How about Russia’s and China’s? I’m beginning to think that the problem is getting into a complexity that was never intended.
Back to the short answer – let’s say “Yes” and “No” to be completely honest and allow for every possible variation. People are complicated. What we are able to see depends so much on where we stand;-)
PS: Re Jason Calley, Good Points! Bell Curves are actually four demensional and made out of jello.
PPS: Re Chiefio, “Sexual promiscuity”, “superficial charm”, and “cunning and lying” that confer enough advantage to become ‘the norm’ even if it is “wrong” are the “spice of life”. They are bad, and a little goes a long way, but most seem to enjoy a little on their daily fare.
According to the presentation and discussion here my nephew is a sociopath and he has been diagnosed with autism. That’s my strictly non-professional analysis. The kid is a charming, lying, incincere little rotter who stands to take over the world someday. I’ll try to keep an eye on for ya’ll.
Since every kid and his brother are being diagnosed with autism nowadays, it seems to me there has been major definition and diagnosis creep to include more and more people in the group. There is an industry growing up around “autism.” There are lots of jobs dependent on autism and lots of aid being collected, shuffled about, and distributed. Funds will shrink and jobs will go away if more and more autistics aren’t found. I don’t need to stretch my imagination more than a few microns to understand why more kids are being diagnosed with autism.
To me, that’s sad because the excess beyond what is needed to deal with the real problem of autism is being diverted from other real needs.
@H.R.:
Oh yeah, ‘mission creep’…
My spouse deals with this all the time. (She is a high end Special Ed teacher). Parents who come in and nearly demand that their kid be diagnosed ‘on the spectrum’. Didn’t understand why until she explained to me that it can mean special tutoring, special placements, and sometimes special money from aid agencies. Seems you get paid more for ‘kids with issues’ than for normals.
She’s also had other teachers try to get kids who ‘act up’ diagnosed so they can be medicated. (Maybe ‘try’ is too strong a word… “suggest”? At any rate, it’s easier to say ‘maybe he needs to be drugged’ than to say ‘maybe my teaching sucks and drives kids around the bend’… and since they are forbidden to touch a kid – even a gentle hand on the shoulder to guide them back to their seat can result in suspension if someone hollers – maybe it makes more sense to ask for drugs to provide ‘discipline’…)
Oh, and Autism is one of those things widely misdiagnosed. It is often applied to kids who are “ADHD” Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder … and THAT is far too often just “kid driven to boredom by a lousy environment”. Basically, if a kid is Autistic, you have to be working on things like basic ability to speak, feed themselves, make eye contact. If it’s less severe than that, odds are it’s a lesser ‘issue’. It’s the rare Autistic who can eventually get a job and social life… and basically never have “charming” as a descriptor. Asperger’s has a lower level of issue, and when you get to “High Function Asperger’s” you are on the edge of “simple geek” and headed for “Gifted Normal”. At that point you start getting the “charming manipulator” as a possible type. But even then it’s an unexpected mix. “Geek” and “charming” are somewhat orthogonal…
Basically, I’m suggesting that your description doesn’t fit the diagnosis criteria, so maybe needs a re-think.
At any rate: Yes, it’s become fashionable to say “He’s not a little monster, he is ‘on the spectrum’ and it’s not my fault, it’s a medical issue.” As there isn’t a diagnosis of “sociopath” available in most school district testing programs, I think a lot of ‘problems’ get labeled with ‘spectrum disorder’ as an expedient.
FWIW, one of the acronyms I’ve had to learn is PDD-NOS. Pervasive Developmental Disorder Not Otherwise Specified. They use that one when the kid doesn’t fit a clear bucket. Many folks then say the kid is “on the spectrum” (of autism – Asperger’s) or use Autism directly as PDDNOS is not something that rolls off the tongue… While it ought to be reserved for actually clear Autism of some sort, it is often used as the “else clause” of behavioural / educational “issues” testing. At least, it looks that way to me as an outsider with a ringside seat.
As all of that is rather messy, I tend to stick to the original checklists for Autism and Asperger’s when thinking about things like “what it is vs what it isn’t” and for looking at sociopaths vs Asperger’s. Keeps things more tidy, IMHO.
Would seem that the OWS Mob, Anti-Anythingers, Union Strike Hooligans, Anarchists In General, etc., etc, (where there’s smoke there’s opportunity for FIRE) tend to attract more Sociopaths than Aspes. Bet there were more than a few out and about in 1776, and in Paris a few years later, especially during the Reign of Terror too. Seems they are part of the human fabric. Bet they go all the way back to the Stone Age. Along with a Geek or two to add some balance to the riot of life. People are really a rather mixed up messy lot, what?
PS: I know, I know, Jefferson, Washington, and 99.9% of our lot were more Geeky than most (or so we like to think). Never have figured out how Robespierre got his job, must have been a freak of nature like most things in France. Attila the Hun was probably more Geek than sociopath too, I think the Italians probably slandered his sterling reputation for self-interest reasons.
Re: Mission creep
Unfortunately, that tends to happen in the other direction too. One of my young family members was initially diagnosed PDD-NOS for what looked like no other reason than to save the school district money on aides. His autism isn’t severe, but he is very clearly autistic. Not a ‘charmer’, but charming in his own honest way.
What a brilliant article! Thank you! I stumbled over this when following a link from Jo Nova’s site. I hadn’t realised I had so many Aspe tendencies under close control – denial almost! So many things become clear when you’re looking in the right direction.
Cheers.
NicG.
Haven’t posted for awhile but as I have an interest in AS I thought I would make the effort today. EM you are making the classic AS mistake of trying to put everyone into categories. The TV humorists thrive on exaggerated characters. You have also not presented a case here which includes the characteristics of female AS who can present quite differently to male ones. However, the one saying about Aspies which is the most realistic, is “you see one Aspie and you see one Aspie”. ie. we/they are all different! The descriptions of Aspies as non liars applies to studies done on children. I know quite a few adult AS who can lie instantly and convincingly. The thing is, an Aspie can learn all sorts of behaviours including anti social behaviours just like anyone else. There are also derogatory comments on here in the comments about NTs also putting them into a one fits all box. The thing is, there is a range of behaviours, both good and bad, which all people can and do do.