PAPP LENR Superatoms Fusion

It can be hard to tell a ‘wild goose chase’ from a ‘flash of insight to the mysteries’.

Sometimes they look nearly the same. Sometimes some bits ARE the same, but a few bits don’t quite connect.

This posting is one of those. Somethings that sure feel like they are connected, some how. But with just enough gap between them that I cannot bridge and say for sure which bits are the ‘flash of insight’ and which are the ‘wild goose chase’.

That also means I can’t lay things out in a nice neat package of who connects what to whom. So I’ll mostly just leave a trail of bread crumbs that others can look at to amuse their own pondering.

It all started with a comment from Simon Derricutt on the LENR Tungsten to Gold posting. He said:

For around the last 6 months I have not been following LENR as closely, having been diverted into helping to revive the Papp engine. I think this has some common ground with LENR, and has the possibility of some sort of fusion energy being relatively easily available. It is certainly a crackpot project, but to me it looks to have enough grounding in truth to be worth the work.

What’s a Papp engine? I wonder…

So the game is afoot and the hunt begins.

Many a strange adventure begins with “What’s a FOO?”…

Turns out it is a ‘whacky’ engine of the ‘free energy’ genre that might not be a ‘free energy’ device after all. The story unfolds with the usual crank / eccentric inventor and extreme claims. Moves on to a death and explosion in a demonstration with Richard Feynman in attendance (yes, that Feynman) and ends with modern claims of reproduction (but unwilling to explain how or have full demonstration). Along the way, some odd clues turn up and then the Left Turn into “Wha?” land.

I’ll not repeat the details, as you can get them from the links. First off, what’s this engine? It is a lot like a regular internal combustion engine in some ways. Mostly different for what is left out. Cooling. Fuel intake and exhaust. The pistons and cylinders and heads remain. Along with a spark plug, of extreme sort. And a filling of ‘inert gas’ (but maybe with some air or hydrogen added). The exact mix in the fuel is the MacGuffin in this story.

A bit of searching turned up this relatively short description of the history and story, but from a ‘sure it worked’ point of view.

The Mystery and Legacy of Joseph Papp’s Noble Gas Engine
Eugene F. Mallove

If you thought that the saga of cold fusion was bizarre, labyrinthian, and astonishing with its mother-lode of unexpected findings— from nuclear-scale excess heat to the rebirth of alchemy in low-energy nuclear transmutation, discoveries alternately persecuted or ignored by the scientific establishment— the cold fusion adventure doesn’t hold a nuclear candle to the story of Joseph Papp and his noble gas engine. The Papp engine saga seems to have had its roots in the 1950s, but it only came into public view in 1968. And, strangely enough, there may well be an underlying physics that links elements of the two stories and their profoundly heretical science. Pathological skeptics of cold fusion— and perhaps some cold fusion researchers— may laugh at or recoil from this synthesis, but they will be treading on thin ice.

One of the best overviews of the Papp story appeared in California’s San Jose Mercury News newspaper on August 27, 1989. We have reprinted David Ansley’s exemplary account, which was triggered by the cold fusion announcement some four months earlier (p. 14).

Hey, I was here then… but having a child on the way not reading the paper. Still, a vague memory of some ‘magic engine’ and explosion, murmurs: “it’s not all made up…”

Skipping the early history part…

Two Explosions, One Death

Apart from the intense contemporary work to resurrect the Papp engine in its full cycling functionality and the independent certification test in 1983 (see p. 9), what other proof is there that Papp’s engine was for real? Sad to say, this evidence is the death of one person and the severe injury of three others at a public demonstration of the engine on November 18, 1968 in Gardena, California. At that event, the engine exploded with an evident energy release that no internal combustion engine could touch.
Feynman’s Mistakes and the Recovery

But at the public meeting the next month at which the fatality occurred (see the local newspaper account of the fatality and injuries-p. 30) was Caltech physicist Richard P. Feynman (1918-1988), who had worked on the Manhattan atomic bomb project in World War II. Before even arriving at the demonstration, Feynman assumed that the Papp engine, whose operation he was about to witness, had to be part of an elaborate hoax. We know this because he recounted his reactions during the episode in his widely circulated internet account touted by the “skeptic” community (see “Mr. Papf’s (sic) Perpetual Motion Machine,” p. 29).

But here is the central problem with Feynman’s analysis (which has many other errors of fact and logic embedded in it): There was a court action against Feynman by Papp and his backer, Don Roser of Environetics, Inc., as a result of Feynman’s inept attempt to disprove the Papp engine with his unauthorized pulling of an electric control-circuit wire that Feynman egregiously imagined had to be powering the engine. It was unfortunate for Feynman that the wire’s gauge was far too thin even had there been a secret electric motor within the retrofit Volvo engine. Furthermore, as you will read, the engine kept running even after the flimsy wire was removed.

That was where the Feynman connection woke me up. So a bit more, found this link:

There’s a nice set of other things to chase down on that page, but the Feynman story in his words was there. Of particular interest is that what was called a too thin ‘control-circuit wire’ was in fact the power plug from the control circuits to the wall. Feynman (reasonably) figure wall power could be sent via that ‘control wires’ to an electrical driving motor.

So Papp gets distraught when Feynman won’t give him back power to the “control circuits”, then the damn thing blows up, kills one guy and injures two more… Feynman assert the machine was rigged to blow to avoid testing, others assert professional inspections showed no hint of explosives. Papp asserts (I think) that lack of control for too long a time let it go into runaway. Caltech settles out of court and pays something… Well.

The engine started to go around, and there was a bit of disappointment: the propeller of the fan went around quietly without the noise of an ordinary engine with powerful explosions in the cylinders, and everything — it looked very much like an electric motor.

Mr. Papp pulled the plug from the wall, and the fan propeller continued to turn. ‘You see, this cord has nothing to do with the engine; it’s only supplying power to the instruments,’ he said. Well, that was easy. He’s got a storage battery inside the engine. ‘Do you mind if I hold the plug?’ I asked? ‘Not at all,’ replied Mr. Papp, and he handed it to me.

It wasn’t very long before he asked me to give me back the plug. ‘I’d like to hold it a little longer,’ I said, figuring that if I stalled around enough, the damn thing would stop.

Pretty soon Mr. Papp was frantic, so I (Richard Feynman) gave him back the plug and he plugged it back into the wall. A few moments later there was a big explosion:

That, alone, is an interesting story. Yet I press on.

This page:

has a bunch of links, one of which leads to a patent paper:

That has a fairly in depth description of the engine. (Yet not the fuel. Nobody knows how to make the magic sauce… it’s the MacGuffin after all). But at least we get some clues. There is a central RF insertion electrode, a counterpoise ground in the piston crown, a cluster of what looks like 4 “spark plugs” that make a strong discharge / plasma forming event, and an iron piston vs magnetic coil sleeve surround that generates the electricity to power the discharge. “Somehow” the RF preheat / ionize followed by major spark discharge causes “something to go bang” in a small part of the noble gas / air / whatever in the cylinder. OK, got it. Some kind of ‘pinch / plasma / LENR’ is the hypothesis du jour.

Papp Engine Patent Drawing

Papp Engine Patent Drawing

If only we had the magic sauce…

So a bunch more digging… it’s some mix of noble gasses. They “explode”. There is mention elsewhere of some unknown lab experiments where noble gasses ‘explode’…


Along the way, I find these folks claiming to have it working again and ready for ‘investment’ to go to production:

They key to the operation is in the electronics that control the process. If I understand correctly, the gas is squeezed by an electromagnetic coil which pushes them toward a focal point where they are “jiggled” by a radio frequency, which creates an ionized form of the gas. A super-high voltage charge creates a plasma state in which the gases go through a transition during a temperature of 4000 times the surface of the sun that is achieved for a picosecond (billionth of a second); and this may involve a fusion process, intermingled with a chaotic fission process in which atoms come together then go apart again. A couple of atoms are fused each cycle.

Maybe that “coil” around the cylinder isn’t just to generate the spark… and if it is quasi stable, taking the control loops off of it could “be an issue” if left to free run too long.

Some various searches lead to this page, that reads a lot like Bafflegab, but gave me the idea of what search key to use, so gets a mention. Searching on noble gas cluster with or without explosion, leads to interesting things…

From: Axil Axil []
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 12:47 AM
To: vortex-l
Subject: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:noble gase cluster explosion

To start out, noble gas clusters including Xenon clusters are formed when these noble gases are pre-ionized by RF radiation. The main design goal in the Papp reaction is to produce UV and X-rays. To do this, Papp used enhanced isotopic nuclear radiation to produce X-rays catalyzed by a high voltage spark discharge; however his spark was relatively weak in terms of current. But a strong enough high current spark discharge can generate this level and kind of EMF.

It has been recently discovered that noble gas clusters will explode when exposed to high intensity EMF in the UV and X-ray range.
Xenon clusters that range in size up to about 14 000-atoms will explode yielding extremely energetic ions with energies up to 1 MeV. By contrast, a chemical explosion involves chemical transition energies of only some tens of electron volts.

An explosion of noble gases can far surpass in power what a chemical explosive can deliver. The explosion of noble gas clusters including xenon clusters initiated by strong emf in the ultraviolet and the X-ray range provides an explanation of where all that power and all those electrons produced by the Papp engine come from.

So off to Cluster Explosions… that led to “Superatoms” that I didn’t know exist… and are interesting in their own right. Seems that sometimes, a bunch of atoms get together in a cluster and act like they are sharing all their electrons and acting like one big valance shell. Complete with magic stability numbers and all. This has me wondering if the nuclei might all be inside a shared bundle of most of the electrons (i.e. close to each other) and if Hydrogen can play too and if maybe, just maybe, that puts some nuclei close enough together that some lattice jiggling could get them stuck on each other, i.e. fusion. Just like we see in LENR and Cold Fusion where surfaces with lots of defects ( i.e. high cluster formation possibilities ) are more active.

Believe it or not, “There’s a wiki for that”:

The one on Aluminum gives an idea what is going on. Clusters act like they have one big valance shell and act like other positions in the periodic chart that have ‘that’ valance shell composition. I’d love to know where what parts of which atoms are located relative to the electron shells in all this… but then again, as they are really quantum probability distributions, it likely isn’t telling me all that much… We already know that the aggregate is a acting like one giant nucleus with one shared valence shell.

Aluminium clusters

Certain aluminium clusters have superatom properties. These aluminium clusters are generated as anions (Aln− with n = 1, 2, 3, … ) in helium gas and reacted with a gas containing iodine. When analyzed by mass spectrometry one main reaction product turns out to be Al13I−. These clusters of 13 aluminium atoms with an extra electron added do not appear to react with oxygen when it is introduced in the same gas stream. Assuming each atom liberates its 3 valence electrons, this means that there are 40 electrons present, which is one of the magic numbers noted above for sodium, and implies that these numbers are a reflection of the noble gases. Calculations show that the additional electron is located in the aluminium cluster at the location directly opposite from the iodine atom. The cluster must therefore have a higher electron affinity for the electron than iodine and therefore the aluminium cluster is called a superhalogen. The cluster component in Al13I− ion is similar to an iodide ion or better still a bromide ion. The related Al13I2− cluster is expected to behave chemically like the triiodide ion.

Similarly it has been noted that Al14 clusters with 42 electrons (2 more than the magic numbers) appear to exhibit the properties of an alkaline earth metal which typically adopt +2 valence states. This is only known to occur when there are at least 3 iodine atoms attached to an Al14− cluster, Al14I3−. The anionic cluster has a total of 43 itinerant electrons, but the three Iodine atoms each remove one of the itinerant electrons to leave 40 electrons in the jellium shell.

It is particularly easy and reliable to study atomic clusters of inert gas atoms by computer simulation because interaction between two atoms can be approximated very well by the Lennard-Jones potential. Other methods are readily available and it has been established that the magic numbers are 13, 19, 23, 26, 29, 32, 34, 43, 46, 49, 55, etc.
Aluminum clusters

Al7 = the property is similar to germanium atoms.
Al13 = the property is similar to halogen atoms, more specifically, chlorine.
Al13Ix−, where x = 1–13.[5]
Al14 = the property is similar to alkaline earth metals.
Al14Ix−, where x = 1–14.[5]

Now I happen to know that ammonium triiodide is explosive, so remind me not to mix any ammonia with that aluminum13 Iodine2- cluster.

I also note they have coined the term “jellium” for the combined electron shell cluster mush. Wonder if they will find a way to make a phosphorus boron version.

Yes, PB & Jellium ;-)

This may also help to explain some of the large clusters of various mixes of metals and silicon / oxygen in all the rock types we have. But I don’t have time right now for that track… so to the “someday” list for “superatoms in mineral formation chemistry”…

Several of these are metal. Hydrogen sometimes acts like a metal. Might there be… Yes, there’s a wiki for that:

A hydrogen molecular ion cluster or hydrogen cluster ion is a positively charged cluster of hydrogen molecules. The hydrogen molecular ion (H2+) and trihydrogen ion (H3+) are well defined molecular species. However hydrogen also forms singly charged clusters (Hn+) with n up to 120.

Oh Dear! Up to 120 in that Cluster Formation…

Hydrogen molecular ion clusters can be formed through different kinds of ionizing radiation. High energy electrons capable of ionizing the material can perform this task. When hydrogen dissolved in liquid helium is irradiated with electrons their energy must be sufficient to ionize helium to produce significant hydrogen clusters. Irradiation of solid hydrogen by gamma rays or X-rays also produces H6+.

Positive ion clusters are also formed when compressed hydrogen expands though a nozzle.

Nozzle eh? Kind of turbulent, like cavitation… Radiation, eh? Ionizing. Kind of like electric discharges that can make x-rays too. Wonder if the little buggers like Aluminum…

Hydrogen Storage For Fuel Cells – A Density Functional Theory Study of Hydrogen Adsorption on Aluminum Clusters

Researchers from Accelrys have carried out a study of hydrogen adsorption by Aluminum clusters, a promising candidate for fuel cell hydrogen storage devices.

The simulations revealed that a lot of H atoms can be adsorbed easily on the surface of the Al clusters.

On the surface? Or actively joining the cluster? And if actively joining the cluster, perhaps well inside the outer Jellium Shell of electrons, might added phonon energy slam one or two of the poor dears on into a metal nucleus in the cluster and cause a tiny fusion event? Given “Billions and Billions” of atoms in a small chunk of stuff, a one in a Billion Quantum Event gives a lot of fusions. Where any particle is, is a probability function after all…

In Conclusion

So that’s where this little “Dig Here” ended.

I suspect, but can not show, that H (and maybe others like He and who knows what) joins up with heavier atoms to make “Jellium” or “Jellyspheres”. The small atoms end up inside most of the electrons that form a shared valence shell for the cluster. Then some phonon energy in the physical structure slams some of them just a bit too close together and the short range attractive force can suck them into one. Not often. Just often enough. For the gas phase, it looks like that excitation energy can be x-rays and strong EMF into a plasma (where the electrons are stripped off into a gas like phase anyway). I’d especially look at things where it forms a ‘noble gas’ shared electron shell structure.

In short, get the nuclei abnormally close, one way or the other, then slam them with some energy pulses.

I’m also now wondering just how often those simple solar-system model atoms we all learned are just not what is going on, and now often that “it is in THIS column in the periodic chart” is ignoring what happens when they get together in a gang and get rowdy and charged up. If aluminum can act like a halogen, what else can happen? Is there a whole world of slightly exotic chemistry we are ignoring, but that the rocks and life and maybe even stars are happy to play in?

Sure looks to me like ‘the science is settled’ isn’t quite right and that there are plenty of things we don’t understand just yet.

Does the Papp engine work?

I have no idea.

But I’m not seeing anything in what we know that prevents it. And I’m seeing a whole lot of stuff we are just starting to get to know exists, with plenty of potentials.

So, were I looking for things to cause low temperature fusion, I’d look for atoms that form clusters. Those that are prone to ‘absorbing’ a lot of hydrogen and / or helium. I’d look for ways to show that forms Jellium shells. I’d then ‘excite’ it in various ways. Make phonons in solids. Make small finely divided cluster sized dust. Expose it to high frequency RF, and cyclical pressure. Maybe even cavitation and EMF fields. Look for things just a tiny bit below the “Magic Number” stability numbers, where they really do want another proton or two in the nucleus. Then cram a lot of Hydrogen in under pressure and shake baby shake, irradiate baby irradiate. For gas phase, look for noble gases that are known to form clusters that can make explosions. Perhaps add a hydrogen or helium or two to the cluster and see what happens. I note that the Papp engine mentions air and noble gasses. Oxygen is just 2 short of Neon. So oxygen and helium mixed ‘has potential’. While lithium nitride might be interesting to explore.

I don’t know what would happen, but I’d bet it will be interesting…

“If I knew what was going to happen, it wouldn’t be an experiment.”
(To steal a quote…)

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About E.M.Smith

A technical managerial sort interested in things from Stonehenge to computer science. My present "hot buttons' are the mythology of Climate Change and ancient metrology; but things change...
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24 Responses to PAPP LENR Superatoms Fusion

  1. Petrossa says:

    Fun stuff to mull about. Not being any kind of ‘in’ to this, but i always had this feeling that the best form of energy generation was causing a flow from one level to another. Always pictured it as a little device that connected two energy levels and tapped the resulting flow.

  2. BobN says:

    The Papp saga I believe will be made into a movie some day. Papp used various techniques to ionize the noble gas. He had his engine tested on a dynomometer (sp) and had various witnesses that it ran stand alone. Indications are that he achieved an over unity COP of 80, an almost absurd number to comprehend. People are working to duplicate his work and report varying degrees of Success. One of the key guys that built the motor for Papp is Bob Rohner who has demonstrated a popper. The Popper and investigation into the engine is a open source effort by Russ Gries and is found at
    There are many ideas and theories put forward on this site and its quite interesting to follow.

    I’m not in the cluster camp as to its operation, but think it more of an electrical shock wave with a small fusion reaction creating the gain. The engine runs cool and does not heat like a normal ICE with its gas explosions.

    The engine was reported to produce an excess of electricity that was used to fire the next cylinder so once the engine started it ran off its own charge. Many think that when Faynman pulled the plug the control circuitry was inoperable and the charge kept building until the explosion occurred. One of the people that worked with Papp was Jimmy Sabori, he has some videos of the engine working and talks about the need to drain of the excess current. I don’t think Sabori understood, just had his hands on a Papp engine.

    Papp also demonstrated the power of the explosion capability in a demonstration to the military in the desert, a most convincing explosion.

    I believe this to be real and while the story is long and sorted, much scientific data points to something going on. There are various companies pursuing this technology and I believe some to be close. Papp had a very interesting life, being shot in the shoulder being part of the story. If the technology is found to work, energy will become close to free and everyone will live off grid. Cars will drive for 6months to a year without refuel and boats and planes can circle the globe many times without refueling.

    I am looking at this technology and hope to use it to revolutionize agriculture and the food business.

  3. EM – thanks for digging. Although I do think that Papp did what he said, there have since been a lot of fraudulent claims to have reproduced it – most recently John Rohner who is currently under investigation by the SEC. Note that his brother Bob Rohner is, on the other hand, researching honestly. Bob has one site at but John has hundreds with similar names, so a web search is unlikely to find Bob’s site easily.

    Most relevant to the process in my view, and quoted by Papp in his patent, is the work by Koloc, but there are also hints from Chernetskii and Ken Shoulders that something weird can happen in plasmas with vortices in them. The Dense Plasma Focus Fusion project is working along those lines, as it Clint Seward, and I’d expect both of these to have some success in a few years. Clustering, and what happens in small groups of atoms, is fascinating, too, and looks likely to be more interesting in future as people discover more uses for it. There looks to be a connection between these things.

    In the same way as we can look at a dust-devil or tornado as a separate entity, with the structure dynamically determined by rotations, it looks like we can make a condensed energy structure in a plasma (toroidal plasmoid) using an arc. Since this has locally a very high energy-density and very high electric field gradients, it could be that it can have effect on the nuclei inside, and thus trigger both fission and fusion given the right components in the gas-mix. All somewhat up-in-the-air at the moment until proven, of course, and as far as I know no-one has yet publicly claimed to have managed it and been scientifically proved right. There are, however, a whole load of false claims.

    Sorting out the truth or falsehood really means building things and measuring them, so I’m doing that. I’ll hope to get some answers soon. (but – Hope is not a strategy….)

    If the process works with cheap and plentiful gases, then energy will become a lot cheaper, but if it only works with the noble gas mix that Papp specified there isn’t enough Xenon around for it to be more than a useful curiosity.

  4. omanuel says:

    The central problem is just this: We now know without doubt that our government has been lying and hiding experimental data since 1945 about the source of energy [1,2] in the cores of

    a.) Heavy atoms like those of Th, U, Pu
    b.) Some planets like Jupiter, Saturn
    c.) Ordinary stars like the Sun
    d.) Galaxies like ours

    How do we know if they are instead being honest with us?

    What a sad, sad state of affairs for society and science!

    With deep regrets,
    Oliver K. Manuel
    Former NASA Principal
    Investigator for Apollo

    1. Oliver K. Manuel, “Neutron Repulsion,” The APEIRON Journal 19, 123-150 (2012):

    2. CSPAN News captures NASA hiding data from Jupiter:

  5. A C Osborn says:

    The Oil Industry would have done whatever it could to prevent the production of such an engine and probably still would today.

  6. Steve C says:

    Fascinating stuff, especially if it works even half as well as its proponents believe. Reading through the links, it seems that other noble gas mixtures may also work, so the relative lack of xenon may not be too much of a limitation. Whatever, I got a darn sight more interest out of this article than out of the usual stuff I read on Keelynet – been turning up there for years, hoping for the article that says “Hey, build this free energy machine, plans on my site, and let me know how you get on” rather than “Send me money for the plans to build this free energy machine …” Still waiting. :-(

    What I really’n’truly want to see is an analysis of the ‘Hutchison Effect’. Now that really hurts the brain, albeit it seems to be an energy sink rather than a source.

  7. adolfogiurfa says:

    Unless we change of paradigm we will not understand a thing: We are unable to disentangle the tangle of words we are in, from the time of the “confusion of tongues”. Gotto change from left brain alone to right brain and left brain, both working. Forget self conceit, self indulgence and mutual caressing and you´ll find simple truths to explain everything.

  8. omanuel says:

    I agree, adolfogiurfa.

    Energy in the cores of U and Pu atoms destroyed Hiroshima and Nagasaki on 6 Aug 1945 and 9 Aug 1945, respectively. The United Nations (UN) was established on 24 Oct 1945 and misinformation became scientific dogma on the availability of energy in cores of

    a.) Ordinary stars in 1946*
    b.) Natural nuclear reactors in 1956
    c.) Pulsars, giant gaseous planets, AGN (active galactic nuclei) during the space age
    d.) Cold fusion, when two electro-chemist accidentally discovered this for H trapped in Pd

    *1946: George Orwell was dying of tuberculosis, but he moved from London to the God-forsaken Scottish isle of Jura to warn the public that a new tyrannical government was coming and would be visible by “1984″. It appears that “1984″ arrived on schedule, but most of us were too asleep to realize what had happened. John Kennedy’s wife seemed to grasp what was happening when he was killed in 1963, after starting the Apollo program in 1960 so the USA would not be dominated by the USSR’s temporary superiority in the space race.

  9. DirkH says:

    There was / is the idea to simulate arbitrary atoms by getting quantum dots into entanglement so they form a configurable superatom by sharing electrons / quantum states / whatever.
    One writer speculated a few years ago that this could create the possibility of configurable matter, his name for this was “wellstone”. I guess it’s more problematic than that because the real nuclei get in the way but anyway.

    Maybe the quantom dot researchers have made some progress since then.

  10. p.g.sharrow says:

    @Simon; At one time the noble gasses were considered not combineable into molecular compounds. In 1963 I was at a symposium at Cal. University at Berkley where a paper was presented on creation of noble gasses into compounds. IIRC at 20 to 40 atmospheres stable compounds were created, Neon, Krypton, Argon as well as Xenon. A high compression engine would be able to get things close to the needed matter/energy density for fusion of non-plasmas. Plasma does not want to reach the needed density except under the most sever conditions. The high energies needed for plasma fusion results in very high energy radiations due to the violence of the neutron to hydrogen conversion. At normal matter conditions the neutron becomes normal hydrogen. At plasma conditions the neutron wants to become H- plasma, a much greater EMF spike that yields hard radiation. As the Galloping Camel states shielding from the very high energy radiation is very difficult. Radiation from LENR is of much lower energies and is mostly converted to IR before it can escape from the matter of the device. People that are trained in high energy fusion can not visualize that such differences are possible. Just not accepted in their science. After over 20 years of being a bastard calf “Cold Fusion” is moving from being impossible to being possible and you Don’t need Unobtainium conditions to make it work. It may be helpful to get rid of the physicists and theoretic mathematicians as well. This is a job for Applied Science and tech’s. pg

  11. omanuel says:

    Today the New York Times published intriguing information on the Sun:

    Space-age measurements and observations show that is also the source of energy that:

    a.) Made our elements,
    b.) Birthed the Solar System 5 Gyr ago,
    c.) Sustained the origin and evolution of life after 3.5 Gyr ago, and
    d.) Endowed mankind with special talents and unalienable rights to self governance,
    e.) Just like the Creator, Destroyer and Sustainer of lives and worlds in the Solar System,

    That various religions have worshiped throughout recorded history

  12. E.M.Smith says:


    Interesting article. “Below, images show the largest and fastest ejection ever measured,” has a certain “ring” to it…

    So we have a whopper. And hopefully we are not in the path. I think we will likely see several more in the next 20 year of this Grand Minimum.

    While the article says that there are more during high sunspot cycles, we have very poor data. I suspect there are more at “both ends of the bar bell”. We shall see…

    What is clearly the case is that “The Sun Matters” and “We have no clue how much”…

    But for some hard to fathom reason, I have this feeling we are going to be “hit with the clue stick” Real Soon Now…

  13. adolfogiurfa says:

    When upheavals happen the good thing is that our priorities order changes abruptly; sometimes we need a good kick on our three letters back.

  14. Simon Derricutt says:

    pg – I figure in that case I’m qualified. Although I got a degree in nuclear physics getting on 40 years ago, I worked in computers and electronics, and fixed things. The use of the noble gases in a Penning mix seems mainly to enable the arc voltage to be fairly constant as the pressure increases, though it also looks like Xenon can fission or transmute if you ionise it far enough. In some ways, therefore, the noble gases are somewhat of a red herring.

    There’s evidence that using a high electric field can affect beta decay rates – the best experiments I’ve found were by Ron Hammack. Even the field from a utility HV power line shows reduced background radiation beneath it. Whereas we used to think that nuclear energy could only be affected by very high energies, it’s looking like this is not true and if you look carefully enough there is evidence of nuclear reactions in a lot of everyday situations. Lewis Larsen has documented quite a few of these.

    It looks like the Papp idea may be a way to get a very high electric field gradient, and so enable a controlled release of nuclear energy. Since I started by looking at LENR, I’d like to try to apply these ideas to Nickel and Hydrogen and see if I can generate more heat energy out than electrical energy put in. If it works, it will be cheap and compact. Hopefully it will also be reliable.

  15. p.g.sharrow says:

    @Simon; As near as I can determine the Rossi device uses Nickel that has had the level of unstable heavy isotopes increased from 5% to about 20% and the stable isotopes do not take part in the reaction. I believe some additional copper is also add, as much as 10%. Hydrogen is used. Not Deuterium! If I was creating a device I would use RF to increase heating energy and a bias voltage to actually control the level of reaction once started. While Hydrogen must be packed into the lattice of the target material to near saturation, thereafter the reaction can be controlled electronically with no additional Hydrogen. Amplitude Modulation may accomplish this control of matter/energy density. I doubt that this thing needs to be any more complex then a Tube Type oscillator circuit. Temperature limit is the level where nanostructure is maintain, if the nickel melts the reaction quenches. If the reaction is run too cool I think the reactive heavy nickel “freezes” as copper and is lost to further reaction, copper does help with photonic/electronic energy flows and is the necessary sintering agent for the nickel nano powder. The key is to transition Hydrogen to Neutron and then back to Hydrogen. Each transition causes an EMF event. A weak event during Neutron creation and a stronger event back to Hydrogen. Layers of boron and lead will provide shielding and help transition the EMF gama radiation to IR.

    Shielding of the Rossi device is about 1 cm of each and a stainless steel case. No exterior radiation is detected. The period of cool down is enough for interior radiation to die down.
    I doubt that Nickel is the only material that will work. The key is Radioactive Isotopes that can be loaded with Hydrogen and be “danced” around the transition of Hydrogen/Neutron within their crystal lattice. pg

  16. Anonymouse says:

    You might want to take a look at Miles Mathis’ mechanics for particles. He has an interesting model that seems to explain a lot of problems with current consensus garbage and could apply to this issue of what is happening in the PB & J!!

  17. E.M.Smith says:


    Interesting idea… that the H+ e- = N transition as a reversible reaction might be catalyzed in a metal matrix… I’d always supposed the e- was just contributed to an electron cloud around the metal nuclei and that the P of H+ was then “shoved” into the metal nucleus … but if the H was embedded into the electron mass (below the valence shell of the ‘jellium’) and then transitioned to an N, it would easily drift into the nucleus (where it could beta decay). Hmmmm….

    Somehow I think it needs a “do the math” moment with a comparative energetics for the H to N transition vs a P or N into the nucleus… but somehow that idea of a P floating in a sea of electrons in close making the occasional transition to an N seems more ‘reasonable’ Out of a billion H protons embedded into a metal matrix surrounded by electrons, one or two will have the particles line up ‘just right’ so that a vibrating metal nucleus in a phonon movement hits an electron “just right” that has no place else to go and shoves it at a proton blocked by other metal nuclei… Hammer and anvil… I wonder if that makes any sense at all on a Q.M. level… wave functions constrained by adjacent wave functions…

    Well, who knows… out of my depth on it. But it does seem an attractive metaphor…

  18. p.g.sharrow says:

    I like a “Hammer & Anvil” maybe God is a “Smith” 8-)
    The forge of Vulcan creating the stuff that worlds are made of.
    Thanks for patching my goof. pg

  19. pg – with Rossi, my estimation is that his earlier versions had startup/controllability/reliability problems – put another way they sometimes worked. Probably why he built large arrays, so that at any point in time enough of them worked to give an output. As regards precisely what he put in, we don’t really know. The current “hot cat” version was again badly measured, and from the figures I can’t work out whether it is in fact over unity – just too easy to get radiative calorimetry wrong since the emissivity is estimated, not measured. There should soon be a third-party report on this, but it seems to have been delayed. I don’t discount either Rossi or Defkalion, but I don’t expect good results (mass-manufacture of working devices) anytime soon from them.

    The H+ + e- -> n reaction takes around 0.78MeV input energy to happen, but there is also the “hydrino” idea where instead of actually making a neutron you instead have a very tight orbital of the electron so that it looks almost like a neutron. Whereas with hot fusion we are only talking about two bodies, since the chances of getting three particles hitting is vanishingly small, in LENR we’re talking about many bodies connected and interacting, and the maths becomes devastatingly complex even if we had an idea of what is physically happening.

    Overall, though, it looks like that, if you can get a high-enough field strength and energy at a tight-enough focus, you can get a nuclear reaction happening even if we can’t yet work out precisely what is happening. The problem is really how to get that tight energy focus.

  20. Paul Hanlon says:

    Followed the link given by BobN to open-source-energy and saw Simon Derricutt’s name mentioned. I can see what my reading material will be for the next few nights. Some very good videos at the beginning of that thread.

    I’m a bit shocked that Feynman was so close-minded about it. I do hope it wasn’t his actions that caused the death.

    @omanuel Do you ever think you’ll get past the hurt at the way you were treated and look into things like this, I would have thought it to be right up your street. What is your opinion of it?

  21. omanuel says:

    @ E.M. Smith, I have a vague recollection that the most violent solar eruptions occur after the Sun has been unusually quiet, i.e., has not dissipating energy in its usual manner. Check solar activity prior to the eruption that knocked out telegraph operators and telegraph lines in 1859

    @ Paul, I would be happy to look into this if there were enough details available to understand the process involved. With the limited information available, this seems to be a futile exercise.

  22. omanuel says:

    @ E.M. Smith Here is a NASA graph of Sunspot umber versus time:

    The graph shows a peak in solar activity in ~1850 and a minimum of solar activity in ~1857

  23. Paul Hanlon – if I’m right that Papp indeed had some sort of fission/fusion running in that engine, then the responsibility for the death should be shared between Papp and Feynman. Papp because he didn’t get a fail-safe control system for it, and Feynman through disabling what control-system there was. It does seem, though, that Papp was rushed into the demo for money reasons, so knew there was a potential problem but hadn’t yet fixed it.

    In the reading of Russ’s blog, check up on what James Bowery (jabowery) has put in. James is a good physicist who has also held some pretty high government postings, and knew Koloc personally. James said that, although Koloc was somewhat paranoid and was probably not totally sane, all his predictions that were later tested turned out to be true. It’s another bit of evidence that there’s something real beneath the lies and fraud, and that with a bit of luck we can find it and use it.

  24. Pingback: Nickel Aluminide, Raney, Nascent Hydrogen, LENR | Musings from the Chiefio

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