Dear Police: Where I Agree With BLM

I’ve made no secret of my opinion that Black Lives Matter is a racist activist group, funded by Soros, for the purpose of making race relations a “democratic win” in this election cycle. IMHO, it is a political sewer designed in such a way as to create race riots and get cops killed. OK, we know that already. Now what?

But I can’t leave it at that. There are things The Police are doing that are causing the deaths, and don’t need to.

Some background on me: I was a “Law Enforcement Eagle Scout”. Yeah, not a real cop… but we did get limited police training, we were the traffic cops at the Boy Scout Jamboree, for example. Got to do the MACE training ( i react very badly to it… which is probably the point…). Learned the “10 codes” for radio. AND we watched training films. Including “when to fire” training films. Had my first Judo training with the Scout Master. In short, we were Rooky Cop Wannabees with some training. So I’m not coming from this from no background.

Root Problem

So what’s the root problem, IMHO? Changed police procedures from when I took my training. Especially the change from the idea that anyone, even good guys, might be holding a gun; to what I see on TV now. “Have a gun, get shot inside seconds”. That’s just wrong. For me, this is a sanity issue and a 2nd Amendment issue.

Now I’m not going to use the individual names. Partly as I don’t remember all of them. Partly as I’m too lazy to look them up. But significantly because often the name is just not known to the officer responding. You respond to a situation, not a name.

First up, the guy who robbed a store and fought with a cop for his gun. Clearly a “clean shoot”. When you have a robbery, police are to respond. Even if just a handful of cigars. Then the black kid did what pretty much all the folks who got shot did (notable exception next…): they did NOT follow orders from the cop. In this case, the guy even got into a struggle with the cop for his gun. That is absolutely cut and dried a good shooting. OK, BLM decides to “make it’s bones” on this shooting. Pretty dumb, IMHO. It showed, to me at least, that they were just looking for a foil for their political agenda. To cause marches, riots, and “energize the base” of the Democratic Blacks (even if it cost the lives of Police officers).

Shortly after, like days:

A kid in park is playing with a BB or pellet hand gun. Hey, I did that when I was a kid. THEN, it was expected, now not so much and in some places is a crime. A bystander calls it in and even says it was likely a toy. Next frame, a police cruiser rolls into the park, hot and fast, pulls to a halt and the kids is shot dead. MAYBE 2 to 6 seconds from start to end. IMHO, that is murder in blue. Simply holding a gun is NOT a death sentence and ought not to be a legitimate shoot, ever.

Now why BLM chose to ignore this one, that would have had me marching with them, and push the first one, that causes me to class them as “Political Hatchet Organization” is an interesting question, but one I’m not going to explore here. All I can figure is that they had 2 or 3 days wrapped up in promoting (and it was media promoting) the first one and decided not to shift the narrative they were building. Or perhaps they wanted a ‘wedge issue’ between whites and blacks and didn’t want the one that would have unity in the masses… Whatever.

But in that second shooting, we see just what is wrong. Shoot first, find out the facts later. Hold a gun, gone to the grave.

Why is it that simply holding a gun ought NOT to be enough cause to fire, no matter how scared the officer is? First off, because people can cause themselves to be scared just by imagining things. FEAR ought to NEVER be justification (yet “fear for my life” is in many places the only legally accepted justification…) But in a more practical sense, there are many many reasons a person might legitimately be holding a gun. We trained on this in the ’70s. From what I see today, the Police have decided “Just shoot them and sort it out later” is better for them. Harsh evaluation by me? “Reality just is. -E.M. Smith” so yeah, and it ought to be.

One film, I clearly remember, was that “we” got a call of suspicious man by the railroad tracks. When we arrive, this “20 something” with a dark jacket turns, and starts walking toward us at a normal pace, starts to bend at the waist a bit and one arm drifts back. He looks a bit mean eyes locked on us. “We” (or more accurately, the film actor) repeatedly shouts “Hands Up!” “Put your hands UP!” “POLICE, PUT YOUR HANDS UP”, and he doesn’t… We were all supposed to have our “finger guns” out as the officer had his gun out, and shout “BANG!” when we individually would shoot. The guy keeps coming, reaches behind him toward his back pocket and BANG BANG BANG BANG a chorus of ALL of us “shot” our finger guns… the film continues as he pulls a card from his back pocket and shoves it up the camera saying “I am deaf and can not hear you, please write what you are saying”… Similarly there was a Japanese foreign exchange student near me (real case) who was shot by a home owner. Why? The guy was lost and wanted to ask for help. The homeowner was shouting “FREEZE!”, but the exchange student was new to English and didn’t know that “Freeze” was the same as “Halt” in our slang. Language matters.

Then there are things like undercover officers of all sizes, races, and genders and from many agencies. If you don’t give them enough time to say the daily safe word, or show their badge, or tell you they are an office and the Bad Guy is in the bushes over there, well, it will not end well. And yes, undercovers do get shot by “friendly fire” some times. Or the homeowner who had someone toss a brick through his window (after getting death threats) and is standing in his own yard where it is legal for him / her to be armed in most places. Can you say “2nd Amendment right to keep an BEAR arms?”. There is a very long list of more and similar. Commercial pest control with a license and a pellet or BB Cap gun taking out a pest and the “guy across the street” doesn’t now that when he calls in (a property management friend had a guy deal with a ‘trouble animal’ that way). Someone with a mock gun practicing for a play. Bad Guy throws a piece over a fence and runs, you arrive having got a call of “Bad Guy with Gun” to find someone holding a gun… and don’t realize it’s the homeowner who came out to pick up “whatever” was thrown in his yard and is puzzled at it. Etc. Etc.

Then there is the shouting. “DROPTHEGM” doesn’t say much to many folks. Shouting it faster and louder isn’t as helpful as decent speech. It takes forks a couple of seconds to process a dramatic situation and react. Shouting and acting like Bad Dudes just causes many people to “lock up” as fear stops cognition. For me, I’m partially deaf. A couple of people shouting at once, I get zero information out of it. What have you got against old deaf guys?

OK, moving on…

Nest case, we get the guy who’s walking back to his car and the lady cop shoots him for ‘sticking his arm in the window’. Now lets see, what is THE most common thing a cop does in a stop? Demand “License and Registration”. When I’m pulled over for a ticket, I’m reaching for the glove box to get them “right quick”. Now one guy (not this one) was shot a few years ago for “Furtive Movements”. It was held to be a ‘good shoot’. He was reaching for the glove box. (Since then, I sit, hands on the wheel top center, motionless and only move when told to or when I get agreement to a statement that “I’m going to do this now, OK?”… It is absolutely stupid to expect people to do that or get shot. Now back at this Big Guy and Window: Sure, he’s big. So am I. So what? Maybe he was reaching in the window to get his wallet from the seat. You do not know, and NOT KNOWING IS INSUFFICIENT TO KILL SOMEONE. Was he just leaning on the car, forearmed folded on the roofline away from the officer? From her perspective she would see an arm “disappear” “inside”. I’ve often done that to rest my head on the forearm when I’ve got a headache. Was the guy being stupid? Sure. So you going to shoot every stupid person on the planet? We are ALL stupid sometimes.

Now we’ve got video out of the shoot of the “Guy in car with gun and joint”. This one SOUNDS legit, hell, even sort of looks legit when you look at “just the facts” as of 2 days ago. The guy had a rap sheet that includes shooting at cops and just got out of jail. But wait, there’s more:

He was seen smoking a joint by some unmarked out of uniforms who also (now) claim they saw a gun then. Maybe… but what evidence? Do these folks call for backup then? Do they call for uniforms to talk to the guy? Do they tell their Sergeant? Apparently not. (Slightly speculative). Did they work to deescalate? Nope. What did they do? Pulled away long enough to put on Bullet Resistant Black Vests over their civvies and come back, armed and dangerous, to ‘make their bones’…

Watching the video released today, we see them crouched behind a pickup, guns drawn, shouting loud, angry, and chaotically to “Drop The GUN!!”. The spouse is there, saying to them that the guy has a TBI – i.e. his cognition is dodgy anyway. They KNOW he’s high on weed, so will think slowly and a bit chaotically. Frankly, I look at that and think “Medical Case, needs a Medical or Family coolout”. Now you expect some kind of Faluja Doorcrashing Shouting to work on him? REALLY? IF he looks over and IF he can see straight, he will not see the world POLICE on your vest as it is behind the truck. He will see two angry white men with guns shouting at him. You really think that’s the right approach? How about sit back, you be the back up, have two cruisers roll up and “light him up” with the red (or blue) light, and announce over the loud speaker that he needs to surrender. Maybe put his wife on the horn to tell him it’s OK, but he needs to come in the house now…

This Is Bogus

This comes from the militarization of the police forces. The equipment and tactics are now much closer to what is seen in film from overseas wars in foreign lands than what it was “in my day”. CRASH doors down, guns drawn and ready to shoot, kill anyone with a gun, then say you are sorry. (That killed a white Marine in his home. He ‘reached for a gun’ as a hoard bashed his door down shouting God Only Knows what. They had the wrong house. Sorry! was what his family got for it.)

How about a little subtlety? Have a plain cloths with a “Vote For Bill” hat and pamphlets knock on the door to verify before the big hit. Maybe use all those bits of Spook Gear to verify sounds of drug dealers instead of TV and “Oh, Dear, need to tuck in Mary”. How about just a google of the address before you go in guns blazing? Or Google the name on the warrant and match it to the address?

No, we’ve gone whole hog into “Crash and Shoot First, clean up later”.
That isn’t policing, that’s war.

Yes, I know it’s a hard job. Heck, I was headed that way and got intro training. I have several cops as good friends and a couple of family. But a hard job does not justify “Shoot anyone with a gun.” It just doesn’t.

Fixing It

After decades of indoctrination (at least since Waco… where “to make ane example” of someone a whole tribe was murdered, rather than just send the sheriff who knew the guy up to knock on the door, or even easier, just wait till he drove into town on his weekly run.) after that much time, there are a whole lot of broken cops with broken methods and training. The doctrine of Overwhelming Force First is for the battlefield, not the day job of policing. Too many errors killing too many folks who don’t need killing.

The POLICE need to “deescalate and back off” more on the “man with a gun” calls and be firmer on the “riot in the street” mobs in riot. One, the riot, you let “have space to destroy”, the other doesn’t even get the minute to assess what the hell is going on, who you are, and what “DROMPTHGYNOW” means… It is NOT CRIMINAL TO HAVE A GUN. it is NOT A DEATH SENTENCE TO BE DEAF OR ON DRUGS. And it would really really be nice if you all had decent uniforms. Some “Crabby guy in a baseball cap and black vest” does not say “COP”, it says “BAD DUDE”. YOU shouting “BAD DUDE” via your clothing ought not to get ME shot. There was a reason for the funny hat and the shiny badge, and that reason didn’t go away.

Frankly, to me, it looks a whole lot like a Left Wing Agenda has crept into doctrine. Demonize the Gun, PC Riot is fine. That needs to end. It is causing you to kill people. Maybe they are not nice people, or maybe some of them did bad things sometimes. That ought not to be a death sentence. Really.

Policing needs to be demilitarized. I know, not as sexy as SWAT, but less shooting and killing. You can always fall back to SWAT for the kinds of stuff it was originally for. Bank robbers with hostages. Armed Gangs Attacking. Terrorists at the Mall. Leave the home invasions for the crooks and the street shootings for the gangs. Frankly, watching the news now, the only difference I see between the Blue Gang and the Street Gang is that your equipment is better and sometimes you wear identification that is clear. Oh, and the lawyers and politicos back you up… Now that is from someone who is 100% pro-cop and wanted to be one; what do you think the occupied oppressed communities think of you? And you wonder why they run. Hell, I’d run if I saw folks with guns out shouting like a mad man.

We need to get a whole lot more community policing. There ought to have been a beat cop in that neighborhood who knew who this ‘regular’ was, knew he sat there in his car each day, said “How’s it going?” a few times, knew he was TBI and self medicating, knew the wife’s name and to knock on the door and ask her to get hubby cleaned up… and who knew if a call came in of “strange man in a car” that it was nothing much.

We need traffic cops who, rolling up to a truck stalled in the street, don’t shout at the owner when he gets out and walks toward them (asking for help?). I’ve had cops shout get back in your car (well, really, used a loudspeaker). While I did a perfect pirouette and back to the car, the fact is I was a “Big Guy being shouted at”… for getting out of my car. A perfectly normal thing for people to do. Frankly, the level of paranoia that looks like to the average Joe and Jane just makes them wonder about your sanity and are they going to get shot. Hell, I had that feeling in a traffic stop when a 9 foot tall (or so it looks when seated) Hispanic officer came to the window over my shoulder. Head doesn’t turn that far to say “Howdy” and he looked very tense and fidgety. Look, I get it. Tough job and you want to make it home alive. One in a 1000 will be a Bad Dude and you need to be ready for that. But you are past the point of negative returns. Add in guns drawn and shouting and I’d be frozen or confused too. I’d be thinking “What did I Do?” not “comply with the shouted mumble”… if it were “GET OUT OF THE CAR” would I think “Don’t do that, shout I have a Gun?” (BANG I’M DEAD) or “Do it and he’ll see the gun as the jacket flaps open” (BANG I’m DEAD)or shout “I HAVE A CCL” and hope I don’t get (BANG I’m Dead) for non-compliance with the get out order? Or take a few seconds to work through it all (BANG I’m DEAD). And I’m a white guy with no priors…

Now remember that black guy, shot sitting in his car, in front of his girl friend, for having a Cary License and a legal gun.

The Cops, faced with a street war from the worst of the worst, have now made it their style to approach everyone in street war mode. That just spreads the street war. It is essential to stop spreading the violent behaviours and narrow them instead. Policing is all about DE-escalation of violence, not gearing up for more and faster and causing it to precipitate.

In Conclusion

As a gun owner, the way “modern policing” has moved to “See A Gun And Shoot” is horrific.

As a partly deaf guy, the way “modern policing” has gone to “shout chaotically and then shoot” giving no time to decipher the shouting is horrific.

As a regular guy, the way “modern policing” has “strange men in baseball caps and tee shirts shouting” instead of clear uniforms concerns me. Not just as it just doesn’t say “COPS” without taking some time to read the fine print, but because any yokel can get baseball caps and tee shirts printed (the better to do home invasions with…). Nice patches. Funny hat. Leather utility belt and bright shiny badge, those don’t take ‘think time’.

Then there is that whole “home invasion first” thing… Yes, I know. A friend who collected monthly rent for a living had a shotgun blast come out the apartment door when he knocked. Well, really, a bit after he knocked, then walked two steps away… after that he stood to the side and knocked… So yeah, I get it. But really, a knock and ask can work wonders. (Have a partner to the side with a shotgun, if desired, and others in the bushes outside windows and the back door too, if justified). Do remember, though, that today you will likely be on camera, even if you are a SWAT team streaming toward that door. The days of “surprise breach” are already limited. Being suspected of drug dealing ought not get someone on the wrong end of a broken door, dog shot, kids terrorized, and 10 guys with Assault Weapons (real ones) looking to shoot anything that makes them nervous. (That’s happened).

You, the “boys in blue” and now “girls in blue” too are the ones who have been escalating. IMHO, that’s not the job. It also doesn’t look like it is working out all that well. So much resentment is now in the communities that there’s a lite war between the Black and Blue gangs going on. Both sides getting jumpy and killing the other.

No, I don’t know how to fix it. I’ve pointed out where it looks wrong to me, but I can’t say for sure that would “fix it”. I do know that it has eroded my comfort with Police On Duty. (Still fine with them off duty, but on, the “jumpy” is showing). Now I’m lucky enough to live in an upscale place where the cops are pretty good. I’ve talked to an undercover in his car and asked what he was doing, then caught clue and said “Working, I see, never mind” and me and my flashlight went in the house leaving him and his stakeout alone. (Drug dealing a block down, now gone, so folks have to drive to the other side of town ;-) I’ve helped a cop trying to catch a kid who broke into a car and had a nice chat about flashlights (why he had a short plastic one and I had a 4 cell Maglight… City got sued ’cause some perp got conked on the noggin and it did some damage). I’m lucky. I’m in a place only 1/2 way from My Old Home Town to the methods in Newghetto America… The question is how to get the cops there, to act more like the cops here, and how to get the citizens there as comfortable as the citizens here in working with the cops.

I’d start by having people from a community policing that community.

That trust building, I fear, will take a generation of trust building and NOT shooting “Man with Gun” on sight.. It will take time for the cops there to stop demonizing their citizens, and for the citizens to stop demonizing the cops. It will start one friendship at a time and one deescalation at a time. One “Jimmy, does your wife know you are smoking weed in the car? Look, man, just finish that one and don’t be doing it tomorrow, ok?” at a time. One “If that’s a gun in your car, best take it back to the house. I’ll be back in an hour to check on you.” And maybe one “Officer Obie, I made some cookies for you…” at a time…

Subscribe to feed

About E.M.Smith

A technical managerial sort interested in things from Stonehenge to computer science. My present "hot buttons' are the mythology of Climate Change and ancient metrology; but things change...
This entry was posted in Human Interest, Political Current Events and tagged , , . Bookmark the permalink.

51 Responses to Dear Police: Where I Agree With BLM

  1. Larry Ledwick says:

    There has been a change in policing but also a change in public reactions and both play a part in this problem. The spectators trying to get video creates a more hostile and unpredictable higher risk environment rather than years ago when everyone not directly involved in the situation headed for the hills

    In the case of the woman shouting “he has a TBI!” — I had no clue what that meant, not a term I run into (ever) had to look it up. They could have very easily heard it as something like “He has an uzi” Under a high adrenaline situation the cops probably simply tuned it out as crowd background noise and it probably just contributed to information overload. Just like highly trained fighter pilots can ignore alarms and pull up voice alerts when tunnel vision lock has occurred in a dog fight. Likely the cops were in the same situation.

    (do they train with background noise and distractions or just a tunnel vision producing shoot no shoot projection system?)

    On the cop side of the equation, there has been a slow drift toward zero risk policing. That was one of the problems at the Columbine shooting, because of the prevailing zero risk training at that time, they did not do a prompt aggressive entry to stop the shooter. That killed a lot of kids and now swat teams train for aggressive assault on an active shooter, but has the no risk philosophy been allowed to persist in one on one street contacts?

    There has also been a change in training about use of force. I have a friend who not long ago went through training for a Colorado law enforcement agency. The tactical instructor told them to “have a plan to kill everyone you meet”. Now he was probably doing that to reinforce their situational awareness and to keep them from getting complacent, but repeated often enough, it can also create a subliminal suggestion that enables shoot don’t ask reactions to surprising situations.
    As the old saw goes — “You fight like you train”

    There is also an informal rule that if forced to shoot, empty the gun reaction. No one says it “officially” but I have heard it said many times while around cops in informal discussions about liability in a shooting situation. Once the first shot is fired, it is so ingrained in the subconscious, and they are pre-condtioned that it is much easier to defend a questionable shoot if the suspect is dead, than it is to confront a living crippled survivor, that the suggestion leads to over reaction once the first shot is fired. In instruction for defensive shooting situations I repeatedly see them advocate multiple shots fired. The classic two in center of mass and one in the head. – – – but – – –

    In fairness that is a good statistically based response, since probability of stop for a single round is only about 50% – 60% even for the highly effective hand gun cartridges. Given that even trained shooters miss about 70% of their shots fired in a traumatic situation, statistics say you need to fire at least 4 – 6 rounds to be sure the suspect is stopped. The down side of that, is it is an incremental move toward shoot to kill rather than shoot to stop, especially if more than one officer discharges his/her weapon.

    I also briefly considered law enforcement and helped teach defensive tactics for law enforcement (mostly just an actor to assist with the scenes they were playing out). I am very much on the side of law enforcement who use good practice and common sense tactics. Police work is a dangerous job, (not as dangerous as many other jobs however. A roofer is 4x more likely to get killed on the job than a cop).
    It is a job you shouldn’t be doing if you demand a risk free work environment and you need to, like a race car driver or pilot (which also get killed more often than cops), have to accept some level of risk in order to do your job properly.

    There has developed an institutional Us vs Them culture in policing and that is not helped by the recent trend to make every cop a hero. They can be, but honestly having worked around them for about 20 years some are full blown ass holes, some are control freaks, some are “norm enforcers” (that is someone prone to violence that looks for “socially acceptable” ways to be violent), and some are the nicest guy/ and gals you would ever want to meet — no different than doctors, nurses, car mechanics etc.

    Making every cop a hero sends subtle social reinforcement to the “I am special”, and the “Us vs Them” mental states we see in some cops. There are legitimate heroes, but some cop who gets killed on duty because he did something stupid is neither a good cop or a hero, just a sad victim of their training and culture. About 20% of cops killed on duty get shot with their own gun or their partners gun, many of those are due to poor training, carelessness or just plain dumb mistakes. Sorry those are not heroes any more than the roofer who falls off a roof because he was too proud to wear a safety harness.

  2. p.g.sharrow says:

    I’m afraid that I would have to agree. Modern policing is feeling more and more like a occupying military force. Fact Is most American military are better trained at dealing with the locals.

    My line when I hear of these shoot outs is “Cops on Drugs” Some of them live for that Adrenalin rush of the attack of shouting, smashing things and shooting their guns. Modern training and “cop talk” is too much centered on seizing control as quickly and forcefully as possible. There are far too many bad outcomes that no longer be covered up.

    A group of my neighbors and I just had this same discussion this afternoon. The policing in California is only slightly less dangerous to us old hill people then the threat from city gang bangers. Most of us are ex-military trained, experienced, armed and dangerous…pg

  3. John Howard says:

    That’s peculiar… I am also pro cop, but have been thinking these very same things. Having had a few Cops for friends over the years, I am familiar with the attitude of “us against them”, but that attitude seems to have changed to “us or them”… a big difference in my mind.
    Some twenty years ago, Cop I knew told me that while making a traffic stop, he had been charged by the driver brandishing a good sized hunting knife. Luckily he was able to get out of his car baton in hand and was able to fend the assailant off. Took about twenty stitched to sew up his belly, but he didn’t pull his gun and kill the guy.

  4. E.M.Smith says:


    My Karate Sense, Sgt. P.D. motorcycle div., had some great stories… One of his officers had a guy in a car he’d pulled over, pop out with a handgun and start shooting, officer, a few feet behind the car pulled his gun out and started shooting. Maybe 30 feet apart? Max.

    Perp empties gun, hitting nobody, gets in car and speeds off. Post shooting work up finds one bullet from cops gun in the ground inches from his boot, a trail of a few more a foot or two apart each leading toward where the car had been, and one in the trunk (they caught the guy as he was leaving town… radio is very fast ;-) Nobody hurt at all.

    Another shooting had 2 perps and two cops run out of bullets shooting at each other, after stop and car to car. Nobody hit. Nobody at all.

    Another guy, very different story. Hopped up on PCP. SEVERAL cops plugging him regularly with 9mm. Lots of hits. (He was shooting wild and not hitting them, thank God). Sgt. goes back to his car, gets shotgun, loads slugs, comes back (think how long this is taking) and finally drops him with a slug to the spine stopping legs from working… Later he bled out…

    It’s just a crazy range of stories…

    I know it’s hard to forget about PCP Man when approaching a strange car or a guy on the street, but attitude can entirely diffuse a risky situation. A beat cop who is known to ‘be cool’ and let the perp-to-be’s little brother off with a “Hey, you don’t want me tellin’ your Mama” instead of booking him for a joint; that guy can walk up the Big-Bro and just talk to him because ‘he owes you one’ for the little guy. Say “don’t be pushing here, I don’t want your little bro seeing you booked…” and have it work.

    It is the loss of that kind of policing that I grieve for.

    Seeing a despondent vet with “issues” sitting on his front step with a gun ought to be met with something other than a bunch of shouting and then shooting. Empathy solves that kind of thing without making lives far worse.

    Yes, I know that there are a 1000 of those a day, and it’s the one Aw Shit makes the news… but we ARE training, as you pointed out, for street violence, not for an Andy Griffith Sheriff…

    That training shows in actions. Those actions cause ‘regular folks’ great unease (as noted, I’ve felt it, and I’m very much ‘one of them’ at heart). Unease leads to fear and rejection. That decays into very bad community relations and resistance to police… and we end up with the gang wars of blue vs black, blue vs hispanic, and even blue vs po-white-trash…

  5. gallopingcamel says:

    As a Brit I am used to police who don’t carry guns. When a police officer comes to arrest you he politely asks “will you come quietly”. If you decide to resist he will use force all the way to a policeman’s baton (aka a “Night Stick”).

    Things are quite different in the USA that leads the world in gun ownership:

  6. E.M.Smith says:

    When I was a kid, it was that way in my home town, despite nearly 100% of the homes having a gun in them. (Mormon town. Then, at least, it was a duty…)

    It isn’t the gun, it’s the culture…

  7. Gail Combs says:

    “It isn’t the gun, it’s the culture…”

    Yes that is exactly it AND it was done on purpose.

    As a manager and as a child entertainment vendor I have noticed the complete lack of discipline in many children and young people these days and also a shift in the corporate culture. It used to be that if an employee disobeyed a direct order that was reasonable, they were fired on the spot and escorted off the property. PERIOD Even the unions had no problem with that. Now if the employee is not a white male, and even if he is, he can sit on his rump reading a book and tell his manager to F..k-off when told to get to work as a production line idles. Even when hauled down to personnel and repeating the F…k-off nothing is done. (True story and yes he was male and white)

    So what happened to American culture that caused slovenly work habits and no respect for authority?
    This has been one of my ‘dig heres’

    The Hand that Rocked the Cradle: A Critical Analysis of Rockefeller Philanthropic Funding, 1920-1960 by Brian J. Low

    Past research into the mental hygiene movement in Canada and the United States has tended to view it in isolation from co-temporary projects funded by Rockefeller philanthropy, such as mass communications research. The mental hygiene campaign aimed to modify adult-child relations by reducing the influence parents and teachers held over children’s personality development; the central aim of mass communications research was the development of conformity of opinion. One a project of social engineering, the other of social control, the two projects combined appear to have possessed considerable potential to work in concert to shift weight in the socializing matrix from families and schools to the media at the outset of the post-World War II baby boom.

    One never has to delve very deeply into the literature on child-rearing in Canada or the United States from the 1920s through the 1950s to find the hand of Rockefeller philanthropy supporting individuals or organizations involved in the production or dissemination of child-rearing knowledge, especially the Laura Spelman Rockefeller Memorial Fund (LSRM). Mona Gleason, for example, frequently noted the funding role of the LSRM in her Normalizing the Ideal: Psychology, Schooling, and the Family in Postwar Canada. However, she made little of the source of funds for Canadian psychologists and psychiatrists such as William Blatz and Samuel Laycock.[1] Indeed, Canadian and American educational historians regularly note the incidence of Rockefeller philanthropic support for the principal opinion-leaders of psychological and educational circles but seldom consider the significance of this common source of funds in relation to the ubiquitous approach to child-rearing tendered by those of influence, nor its relationship to other programs funded by the philanthropy.[2]

    In this article, I argue that Rockefeller philanthropy fundamentally controlled psychological discourse concerning child-rearing and pedagogical practices in post-World War II Canada and the United States. The philanthropy’s officers were, in essence, funding support for a particular psychological approach to matters concerning children so extensively and effectively that they in effect shaped the consensus for the “modern” child-rearing philosophy….

    The final result of this is friends went to Jail in the Boston Ma area for spanking their child and now North Carolina considers yelling at a child ‘Child Abuse’

    However we do not see the same lack of discipline in Christian children raised in the church, including Black children, Hispanic, and Aisian. But never fear the Progressives have that covered too.

    Born-Again Christians lead nation in spanking children

    …A new study from the Brookings Institution gives some dismal numbers about the state of corporal punishment in America. Apparently, a large majority of Americans believe hitting children is an acceptable form of conflict resolution.

    The Economist reports 81% of American parents believe that spanking is sometimes necessary, more than in many other rich countries, 20 of which have banned spanking, even by parents.

    The Economist notes:

    In America, Republicans spank more than Democrats; southerners more than north-easterners….

    The Week of Feburary 3 2015 a search on Google for child abuse spanking religious

    This article is brought to you by GEICO aka Warren Buffett

    Christians have no moral rationale for spanking their children

    …Eighty percent of born-again Christians believe that spanking is acceptable. This is 15 percent higher than the general population….

    Many social scientists have explored the effects of spanking on children, and the majority of their results are overwhelming negative. Elizabeth Gershoff, a professor at University of Texas, spent 15 years systematically reviewing hundreds of studies conducted over more than 60 years on corporal punishment…

    Protecting the Unprotected: Religious Extremism and Child Endangerment
    Journal of Law & Family Studies, Vol. 12, No. 2, p. 391, 2010

    This Article’s primary thesis is that male and female children alike are victims of child abuse and neglect in the name of FLDS [Church of Fundamental Latter-Day Saints] religious doctrine. While others have addressed “terror in the name of God” (attacking internal and external targets alike) child endangerment in the religion paradigm is, I suggest, fundamentally different. Simply put, it is the deliberate injury to one’s own child predicated on religious faith, in particular religious extremism. To that end, this Article will focus on the danger to members of an internal community (members of a particular faith) rather than to an external community (members of other faiths).

    Radical Extremists Are Spreading Disease in American Schools, Infecting Our Children
    Sound like they are talking of Muslim extremists? You would be wrong they are talking about white Christians….

    ….It’s indisputable that U.S. Authorities would bend over backward to try to prevent brown skinned Muslim extremists from sending potentially diseased children into our schools. So why the hell are they handing out “religious exemptions” for white skinned Christian extremists to do the exact same thing?….

    Except the US government IS sending diseased illegals and muslims into our schools (Just look up TB)….

    And the Christians are responding to this ‘shaming’ and brain washing.
    Christianity Today: Thou Shalt Not Abuse: Reconsidering Spanking

    As side note it is the Rockefellers and their Progressive pals who were all for spliting up extended families and sending women into the work force (Womens Lib.). (I have posted History, HACCP and the Food Safety Con Job and the Commitee on economic Development’s deliberate targeting of farmers and the small towns that depend on them, for destruction.)

    Up until a couple of decades ago daycare was a niche market for stay at home Mom’s and retired Grandma’s. Most took care of a few children from a few families as my Aunt did and the neighbors scattered though my area. The setting WAS a home and the parents knew the caregiver or knew someone who knew the care giver.

    This of course did not meet the goals of the Progressives who wanted to remove child rearing from the parents and the community and give it to the government. The solution was to scare parents into demanding the government regulate daycare.

    These articles dissect the key daycare abuse cases and show the miscarriage of justice but just like many of the Cops killing blacks cases, the damage is done well before the actual facts come out.
    Articles on the Fells Acre Daycare Ritual Abuse case (Has links to many other articles)

    “Little Rascals Ritual Child Abuse Case

    John Dewey and the Dumbing Down America

    If traditional methods of control are now labelled child abuse you go for the ‘New Improved Method’
    —-The Drugging of our children—-
    This targets the gifted who are bored to tears. It also causes drug dependency and brain damage.
    See my comment HERE.


    What the heck do these pampered ivory tower types think happened to kids for the first 120,000 years of mankind’s existence? Heck child labor laws were not really enacted till 1938 and third world countries and many others still have child slavery.

    My mares will nip their foals in the butt if they bite while nursing and my goats will discipline their kids. Pity the poor kid/foal/lamb who tries to nurse from the wrong Mom! If I have an unruly colt who insists on biting and playing up, I don’t discipline him I just toss him out with a crotchety old mare who puts him in his place, the BOTTOM OF THE PECKING ORDER in a week. It is amazing how well that works. (H/T to my old friend a breeder of Saddlebreds)

    Animal mothers are not all sweetness and light by any stretch of the imagination.

    PAIN has a reason for existing. It keeps you from getting dead. For very young children it is often the only way of communicating NO — DANGER! For older kids it maybe necessary to reinforce the pecking order. Just watch my buck telling his sons who is boss.

    Please note that I think any type of punishment that inflicts pain should be used as the very last resort. We only use it on our animals to counter aggressive behavior or when there is a major fight over the pecking order. If you lose that fight you end up with a dangerous animal and in humans with the culture we have now.

  8. Gail Combs says:

    My comment ended up kicked into the ether. Probably too many links.
    I can cobble it together again but I did not save it.

    The missing comment shows the steps taken to move the first world from disciplining their children and make them useful members of society to the culture we have now of angry temper tantrum throwing toddlers in adult bodies who have to be bribed into good behavior.

    In a nut shell the change in culture was deliberate. starting with:
    The Hand that Rocked the Cradle: A Critical Analysis of Rockefeller Philanthropic Funding, 1920-1960

    Christians have no moral rationale for spanking their children
    Protecting the Unprotected: Religious Extremism and Child Endangerment Journal of Law & Family Studies, Vol. 12, No. 2, p. 391, 2010

    And the christians are responding to this ‘shaming’:
    Christianity Today: Thou Shalt Not Abuse: Reconsidering Spanking

    The shift from the family/local community raising the young child, (after Womens Lib and devaluation forced women into the work force) to the government. This was done using trumped up charges and the shrieking media to scare parents into agreeing to the federal government take over of daycare. Prior to that it was the retired neighbor or stay at home mom in many cases.

    Fells Acres Daycare Ritual Abuse Case

    Little Rascals Ritual Child Abuse Case

    Yes, way to many links..

  9. Pouncer says:

    I’m curious how much of the cultural shift may be due to the loss of Jack Webb style entertainment (Adam 12, Hill Street Blues, etc) where the front line, easy-going, patrol cop is the central figure. Oh, genius detectives and lawyers trying to pin down the sleazy businessman are more mentally challenging and politically correct. But when I was young it was fairly common to see Adam 12’s Reed and Malloy or Chips Jon and Ponch or Hill Street’s Hill and Renko confront angry wives pounding on husbands or teenagers, or drunk drivers waving a broken bottle, or otherwise more “ordinary” situations that could escalate. The drama arose from whether or not the cops could resolve the problem WITHOUT radio backup or close air support.

    Of course it is true I watch a lot less TV now than I did twenty years ago. Maybe there is such a show. Can anyone update me?

  10. Gail Combs says:

    Then you get to school age and you have John Dewey Dumbing Down America.

    With these undisciplined kids hitting school a ‘new’ solution is found. This solution was to call the gifted kids bored out of their minds or kids with too much energy from to much sugar and no exercise, ADHD and drug them brainless… literally. Kids, mainly males are put on drugs at ages as young as four. The results are drug dependency, brain damage and other nasties. See my old comment HERE

    What the heck do these pampered ivory tower types think happened to kids for the first 120,000 years of mankind’s existence? Heck child labor laws were not really enacted till 1938 and third world and other countries still have child slavery. My mares will nip their foals in the butt if they bite while nursing and my goats will discipline their kids. Pity the poor kid/foal/lamb who tries to nurse from the wrong Mom!

    If I have an unruly yearling or two year old colt that insists on trying to bite* and establish HIS dominance over me, I toss him out with a crotchety old mare who will put him in his place very very quickly. Within a week I have a colt that is minding his manners again. (H/T to a girl friend who raises Saddlebreds.)

    Animal are not all sweetness and light by any stretch of the imagination. My buck makes it very clear to his sons who is boss and I have zero problem leaving them with the herd. They will not even try to breed females in heat because my buck gives them the hairy eyeball.

    PAIN has a reason for existing. It keeps you from ending up DEAD!

    Do I think people should use it unthinkingly? Heck no. We only use pain as a last resort if an animal gets aggressive or there is danger to them or me. The same should go for kids. Use sparingly if need to say NO — DANGER! (A spank on the butt for ignoring command to not go into the street for example) Or if the child insists on challenging you as dominant. (Brother drove car without license and got caught.) This should be done at a very early age and usually can be accomplished with out pain by physically restraining the kid. I used that method on the young kids I babysat with lots of hugs and story telling in the mix. (Very important) If I baby sat during the summer I got the whole neighborhood who wanted me to play with them or read to them. The parents were always amazed that their children would obey me without hesitation but not them.

    If kids are treated with kindness and love and then do something really really bad, the spank has shock value. If it is used over and over and over it loses its effectiveness.

    *For biting and nipping we use the John Lyon’s method of push the head away every time it comes towards you coupled with lots of rubbing of the head and muzzle and NO HAND FED TREATS. This works only if the animal is not really aggressive, just spoiled. A horse can kill you with a bite so we consider nipping a major vice.

  11. E.M.Smith says:


    Silicon Valley is VERY progressive /aso-liberal.

    Spouse and I got a certain amount of glee when a progressive friend or workmate with Children From Hell would comment on how well behaved and considerate our children were and ask “How?”. We’d just smile and say “Well, when they didn’t mind we’d spank there little butts. Didn’t have a problem after a couple of times.”

    The looks of astonishment (as we are clasic shmoo over nice nonviolent types) was amazing :-)

  12. Gail Combs says:

    Pouncer says: “I’m curious how much of the cultural shift may be due to the loss of Jack Webb style entertainment…”

    HMMmm I had not thought about that but you may be correct. It was not only the police type shows but also the westerns. The theme was good vs evil and good (the lawman) wins.

    I was about to mention that when I was a kid as we left school each day there was a cop who often showed up. He was a big black dude on a really bad-ass Harley. The young teenage males would swarm the guy to talk about his motorcycle and being a cop and such. The buses never left the parking lot until after he did.

    Fast forward to today and we find a lot of the police are retired military guys returning from war zones. They are not going to have the same mind set as that great cop who showed up at the junior high and high school in the 1960s.

    Then add in the SWAT teams and the use of SWAT teams to serve warrants for not violent crimes. The really neat military equipment plus the Department of Homeland Security Fusion Centers.
    The BLM stirring up riots and cop killings.
    The mayors and police chiefs hand cuffing the cops and Baltimore Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake statement “we also gave those who wished to destroy space to do that”

    All of a sudden you have cop looking at the community as ‘the enemy’ especially the black inner city neighborhoods.

    Going back to discipline. Rudy Giuliani had it right. You go after the small stuff like turn style jumpers. Any trainer knows you don’t allow any undisciplined behavior or it will escalate. It is much easier and less traumatic to everyone involved to stop the small.

    Why Is Homeland Security Taking Control of Local Police?

    Police kill more whites than blacks, but minority deaths generate more outrage: Analysis contradicts widespread views about racial targets

    Military Vets Joining Law Enforcement

    De-Policing and Reality for Police Professionals

  13. Gail Combs says:

    E.M. I am so glad you have your head screwed on correctly about a smack on the butt!

    I was very worried given your wife as a teacher and living in CA you might not. That good Amish blood shines through. {:>D


    Back to the rest of the DIG HERE.

    At this point we come to the deliberate trashing of the Black community and we can lay that directly in LBJs lap. He is the one who gave us the muzzling of the Church (501C3 tax code) and the ‘Great Society’ where Uncle Sam replaced the Black father in the home. So we now have a Job Title ‘Welfare Mother’ where kids are intentionally popped out so mom and black boy friend can collect $$ and the heck with the kid. (This explains the disregard for others seen in the recent videos of cops killing blacks.)

    Actually you can go further back to FDR and his minimum wage that drove the blacks out of the low paying jobs and made those jobs attractive to the whites who were out of work.


    The Black Family: 40 Years of Lies
    Rejecting the Moynihan report caused untold, needless misery.

    Conservative Black Chick Where’s the Outrage over the Black Family Breakdown? (I really like this gal.)

    BREAKDOWN OF THE BLACK FAMILY, AND ITS CONSEQUENCES (Several other articles on the subject)

  14. Gail Combs says:

    OK, I tried to lay out the history behind what is happening. This is not something that all sort of came about by chance. (I used to think that now I know better.)

    Now, like child rearing practices, educational methods, and destruction of Black families, the question becomes WHY is the government and the media setting up a Let’s You and He FIGHT scenario between Blacks and Cops with the rest of the country divided between the two?

    Make no mistake THAT is what is happening with the Soros funded BLM, the MSM and the DOJ tossing gasoline on the flames of Black vs Cop hatred.

    So what else is going on HMMMMmmm???

    The government is quietly transferring the police from control by the local communities to control by the Federal Government. All the kabuki theatre we are seeing has a goal. Obama and Attorney General Loretta Lynch has told us what that goal is:

    Obama Administration and UN Announce Global Police Force to Fight ‘Extremism’ In U.S by Pam Geller

    On Wednesday, Attorney General Loretta Lynch announced at the United Nations that her office would be working in several American cities to form what she called the Strong Cities Network (SCN), a law enforcement initiative that would encompass the globe.

    This amounts to nothing less than the overriding of American laws, up to and including the United States Constitution, in favor of United Nations laws that would henceforth be implemented in the United States itself – without any consultation of Congress at all….

    What is a global police force doing in our cities?

    So if the local and municipal effort to counter the euphemistic and disingenuous “violent extremism” is inadequate and hasn’t developed “systematic efforts are in place to share experiences, pool resources and build a community of cities to inspire local action on a global scale,” the feds – and the UN – have to step in. Thus the groundwork is being laid for federal and international interference down to the local level. “The Strong Cities Network,” Lynch declared, “will serve as a vital tool to strengthen capacity-building and improve collaboration” – i.e., local dependence on federal and international authorities.

    Lynch made the global (that is, United Nations) involvement clear when she added: “As we continue to counter a range of domestic and global terror threats, this innovative platform will enable cities to learn from one another, to develop best practices and to build social cohesion and community resilience here at home and around the world.”…

    Do not forget the Bushes, Clintons and Obummer are directly responsible for the Middle East Blowing up and the current Islamic Terrorism. Again you find the Rockefellers finger prints all over the situation via Saudi Arabia and ARAMCO.

    National Network of Fusion Centers Fact Sheet

    What’s the Matter with Fusion Centers?

  15. Gail Combs says:

    Back to the original topic of cops killings.

    The NLEOMF (National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund) says there are “more than 900,000 sworn law enforcement officers now serving in the United States…” What are the chances that a cop is bad news or a cop guesses wrong?

    Heyjackass says that in Chicago alone there were 2996 shootings and 509 homicides in Chicago in 2015 by low lifes.

    In 2015 in Chicago there were 16 wounded and 9 killed by the cops.
    The race of the victim/assailant was 78.5% black and 16.5% Hispanic leaving 5.0% white/other.

    The 2010 Chicago demographics
    White: 1,212,835 (45.0%) (31.7% non-Hispanic white)
    Black: 887,608 (32.9%)
    American Indian and Alaska Native: 10,290 (0.5%)
    Asian: 147,164 (5.5%)
    Hispanic/Latino: 778,862 (28.9%)

    Final tally: Police shot and killed 986 people in 2015 (well more than double the average number reported annually by the FBI over the past decade.)

    …The Post found that the vast majority of those shot and killed by police were armed and half of them were white. Still, police killed blacks at three times the rate of whites when adjusted for the populations where these shootings occurred. And although black men represent 6 percent of the U.S. population, they made up nearly 40 percent of those who were killed while unarmed.

    Regardless of race, about a quarter of those killed displayed signs of mental illness.

    So thanks to Black Lives Matters and the DOJ cops are now feeling they have to shoot because the hatred has escalated. However no one notices the 887,608 blacks and assorted low lifes in Chicago are killing the same number of people ( 509 homicides ) as cops were in 2014 for the entire country! (USA today reported over 400 for 2014)

    I think we can lay the problem of cops killing blacks squarely in the lap of the Democrats and Rinos. The cops are only reacting to the situation that the politicians have created.

    Again look at what Rudy Giuliani and others managed in New York City by establishing the Rule of Law. How New York Became Safe

    So please Aim AT THE POLITICIANS, the bosses, and not the police.

    This is one of the things that Trump understands thanks to Rudy Giuliani. Good education, churches, good jobs, stopping the drugs and the Rule of Law are what it is going to take to reverse the mess the Progressives made of American cities.

  16. E.M.Smith says:


    Cop shows have gone the way of the movies to the highest possible “shot count” per hour. Vulcan Machine Guns (plural) preferred…

    The closest we have to the old shows, now, IMHO, is Blue Bloods.

    I think Tom Selleck, being one of the few Hollywood Conservatives, keeps it honest.

    They show policing how it is, and how it ought to be, IMHO. Still a fair amount of rough stuff, but a whole lot of “You want ta come down town with me now, or make it hard on yourself?”… and intervention as a human thing to do not always to make a bust.

  17. Larry Ledwick says:

    I agree on blue bloods, I really like that show, as you say in the mold of the older shows like Hill Street Blues and earlier police dramas. There is a bit of that feeling also in the Canadian bases police drama called Flash Point about a swat team and their efforts to de-escalate situations. Sometimes they win sometimes they lose.

  18. J Martin says:

    I think it’s down to training. Though I would suggest that the prevailing culture in the US has an element of violence to it. The US police are not trained to assess and de-escalate, the US police are just trained to shoot and left to panic. It’s that lack of civilised police behaviour in the US that means I will never risk visiting the USA. Over here in the UK I enjoy the relaxed and comforting luxury of a largely unarmed populace and unarmed but extremely well trained police force.

  19. Gail Combs says:

    J Martin,
    Because of all the islamic terrorists in the UK and the EU I will never go back to visit again even though I lived in Germany and visited the UK several times a couple of decades ago.

    Amazing what perceptions we have thanks to “If it Bleeds it Leads’ news stories.

    Our cops here are not bad news, I have interactions with them fairly often. The problem is a ghetto culture that teaches a F..K You attitude of disobedience and politicians that will not allow the use of minimum force like night sticks. If the body is not dead the city and cops get sued and the cop loses his job and he and his family may end up as a target for retaliation no matter what the facts.

    If you divide out the big cities with gun bans and Democrats in charge from the rest of the country you will find the USA actually has a fairly low crime rate.

    If stopped by a cop you keep your hands in sight and follow directions. In almost all these cases the person shot did not follow directions.

  20. Larry Ledwick says:

    J Martin says:
    25 September 2016 at 9:34 pm

    I think it’s down to training. Though I would suggest that the prevailing culture in the US has an element of violence to it. The US police are not trained to assess and de-escalate, the US police are just trained to shoot and left to panic. It’s that lack of civilised police behaviour in the US that means I will never risk visiting the USA. Over here in the UK I enjoy the relaxed and comforting luxury of a largely unarmed populace and unarmed but extremely well trained police force.

    Here’s your answer, most of the US is safer than Europe, only the heavily gun controlled Democratically controlled cites are violent. (note the segments after 3:00 minutes in the video)
    Simple rule to stay safe in the US. stay out of any city larger than 200,000 population which has had a Democratic mayor for more that 4 years.

  21. E.M.Smith says:

    Even in major cities , it I strongly divergent by region.

    My son lives in Chicago, murder capitol of the USA… but I’m not worried as he is in a nice neighborhood, while South Side is a nogo…

    Much like France where some areas are violent, others fine.

  22. Larry Ledwick says:

    A bit more info Murders spiking in European Cities too recently not just in the US.

    Town I grew up in 113k population homicide rate = 1.2/100k
    Town I live in now 62k population homicide rate = 1.4 / 100k (5 out of the last 10 years had 0 murders)
    In two of the remaining 5 years had 3 murders each which skewed the numbers, typical annual murder rate here is 0 -1 murder per year. Long term average is probably between 1.0 and 0.7 or so.

    Murder rates per 100,000
    Helsinki = 1.2
    London = 1.6
    Toronto = 1.5
    Belgrade 1.4
    Brussles = 3
    Glascow = 3.3
    Amsterdam = 4.4
    New York = 5.6

  23. Terry Jay says:

    Yep, wretched excess is prevalent. Rap music is not a calming influence. Neither is black ballistic nylon everywhere, not just police but Park employees and others. And government do love them some black SUVs. The A-Team had an episode quota of around 1,000 rounds, but no one ever got hit, and there were spectacular car crashes that everyone walked away from. The culture has changed.

    It is all nanny now, car seats and bicycle helmets and no kids left alone anywhere ever, and criminal child molestation to change the diaper on your own baby. The cops are just following along, seeking perfect safety at all times and in all situations. Toss in the organizational imperative that no member can ever do any wrong under any circumstance and there you have it.

    US vs Them is everywhere.

  24. philjourdan says:

    Without reading other comments, my first impression is you are using the exceptions as the rule. Clearly the media has decided its agenda is to paint ALL cops as dirty and bad. And to that end, more so than the idiots of BLM (who seem to want to lionize the clear criminals instead of the real innocent victims), they find every case of a bogus shooting and push it. It fits their agenda of “guns bad”. Cops are people. They make mistakes (and yes there are some bad ones, just like in any occupation). But how many people get stopped – with a gun, deal with the reason for being stopped, and drive off? Seriously, what percentage end in a cop shooting versus normal stop, ticket and go on your way?

    I will admit that there is probably a higher incidence of cop shootings today than there was a year ago (or 10 years ago). But again,I ask why? And the answer is simple. Baton Rouge, Dallas, Wisconsin, Dinwiddie, Garner, Florida, LA, etc. Due to the lies of the MSM, it is clearly open season on the cops. They do not start out hunting folks. But when it is open season on cops, most will be more jittery, ESPECIALLY when they see a gun. A slight hesitation, and it is not a cop shooting, but a cop getting shot.

    Yes, in some of the larger cities, there may be a militarization of the Police. But I do not think that is the case everywhere. If there were no election this year, the only stories the MSM would be running are cops shooting and cops getting shot. And that goes to the disposition of both the cops and the shooters.

    Is there a solution? NOT a government one. We can hope that the MSM would stop and actually act responsibly, but in the end, we cannot make them do so. We can hope that people realize that racism is not solely a white problem, but we cannot legislate it. The only thing the government can do is disarm the cops. And that will make all the killings one way then. And is that what people want?

    Hillary had “victims” of cop shootings at her coronation. But no cops. It is the height of hypocrisy and idiocy that half the nation demands more laws, that have to be enforced by cops, and then villainize the enforcers of those laws!

    The problem is not going to go away. We can either cede the streets to the criminals (which the democrats want to do), or use people to enforce the laws, and know that people are imperfect. And mistakes will happen.

    That is the basic choice this November.

  25. Gail Combs says:

    What is even worse is Hillary families of “victims” of cop shootings at her coronation were ALL proved to be justified kills by the police and Hillary D@MN well knew it!

    What her parade said was it is open season on cops. And what do you know? Cop killings are becoming the norm as is ‘riots’ via Soros paid agitators when ever a cop shoots a black. doesn’t matter that the black is a known criminal with assault with a deadly towards a cop like in NC The BLACK is ALWAYS the victim. The rioter/terrorists are always innocent victims.

  26. E.M.Smith says:


    I’m not looking at numbers, so much as what videos show of police tactics. Not just these shootings, but the nightly news over several years. We’ve shoved loads of military gear at police departments, everywhere has a SWAT unit, and use them for ever lesser raids (a home in my neighborhood was SWATed … occupied by a polite young couple… result was “never mind”… maybe a knock on the door first would have saved a lot…) and tactics have shifted. I’ve seen it personally too.

    I’m not saying every stop and every place, but the modal point has moved enough to be a worry. On example of trivial sort: At the dentist, two cops in the parking lot “checking out” a citizen (no idea why, but maybe indigent?) They are motorcycle cops. Now I REALLY like this kit as a gun guy…but… Each of the two motorcycles had a short collapsible stock assault rifle (police can get real ones) mounted near the saddlebag of other gear. Ok, I remember the bank robbers in body armour and cops getting hunting rifles from a local gun store… but that’s the point. 20 years ago the local cruisers didn’t have rifles, just shotgun. Now they have 16 or 18 round sidearms, several magazines, backup gun, shotgun, assault rifle and kevlar helmet in the trunk. That stlye of gear now showing up on motorcycles. Along with this gear has come a change to tactics with doorbreach and mass entry on even modest takedowns, and cops as ‘hunting pack’ evident in many videos. Then the shout of “gun!” followed by near immediate shooting of the person. That just wasn’t done in years past (first off, the officer was often alone with no use for shouting gun…)

    Perhaps part of it is as noted by Gail, above; the “suits” have taken away the other options. I’d not noticed it, but replay of past memony streams and Gail is right: when did the night stick go away? I knew our local cops lost their Maglights (that I trained with as light and club) but it didn’t sink in that the baton was gone too. That pushes police into a more binary choice. Peaceable surrender of perp, or start shooting. No longer is disable with club in the mix, so you must escalate to deadly force faster. (visual of the shooting of the fleeing guy in one shooting vs. visual of police throwing side handle batton to trip perp fleeing circa 1975…)

    Gear varies by department and jurisdiction, but I have no memories of cop with baton newer than about the late ’80s.

    Let me emphasize: I want 100% of cops home safe at the end of every shift. Better, and more, gear helps that. I just think it pushes toward more using that gear, sometimes inappropriately, and the training being done is ever more “police state”. Then the legal dogma pushing the police down a “good shoot” checklist ending in shootings, rather than a community policing de-escalation checklist.

  27. Larry Ledwick says:

    Interesting observation — I think the classic night stick and handle baton dropped out due to two issues, an effort to be less “confrontational” (he’s carrying a club), and the advent of the newer flickable batons which are much lighter and easier to carry.

    I did a quick look on a police supply page and they list about 20 of the flickable batons before you ever see a classic polycarbonate baton and some of them are labeled as “riot batons”

  28. Chazz says:

    The standard cop justification for a fatal shooting always seems to be “I was in fear….”. That indicates to me poor planning, poor situational awareness, or a poor career choice. The reality of course is that a cop with notches on his pistol obtains much higher status at the station house than one who let the thug get away to spare the baby in the back seat.

  29. Ian W says:

    There are three main areas I would comment on. The first as someone who uses cochlear implants if someone starts shouting behind me I will not understand and the louder they shout the less I would understand. There was a local deaf man recently sat in his van when two plain clothes police in very casual clothes including backward baseball caps started shouting at him he had no idea who they were or what they were shouting then one of the plain clothed police got his gun out so unsurprisingly thinking he was being attacked the man reached for his legally held gun in the glove compartment and was killed by the police. Google: Deaf Shot Police and see how many deaf people are shot by police for just being deaf – that is not hearing what a boorish policeman is saying or shouting.
    Secondly, the total failure of marksmanship that makes it extremely dangerous to be anywhere near a policeman with a gun. It is not uncommon for them to not only empty a magazine but to put in another and empty that when there are several of them all firing with almost all the shots missing. Then they will stand over someone who is wounded (or stand on the hood of the car) and empty another magazine. I was in the military (not US) for some time and the rule we had was two shots should be all you needed as you were expected to hit what you shot at. Anyone who empties their magazine and worst of all misses should have their right to wear a gun in public removed.
    Finally, there are the number of police who burst into the incorrect address or sometimes just cut through the backyard of a house and when the family dog starts barking shoot the dog. Or being in a hyped up state they ‘shoot anything that moves’. At dead of night a peaceful householder has their house broken into by shouting men in black and gets shot when they try to defend themselves from a ‘house invasion’. In all cases of inappropriate force like this case and in the first case the entire precinct should be docked a month’s pay. This would bring considerable peer pressure to remove gung-ho police who want to go in shooting. It will also ensure that the right address is on the warrant and the address on the warrant is the one searched. At the moment the police do not appear to care if they shoot the wrong person or kill family pets: these are seen as collateral damage to be accepted by the public.

    There is no point at all in all the hearts and minds campaigns by police if some of their number kill pets and shoot deaf people who couldn’t hear what was being shouted with a group of them emptying their magazines into the defenseless non-threatening target. The best thing that has happened has been the introduction of bodycams and dashcams etc. However, the recordings from these devices should be continually uploaded to ‘the cloud’ and not be under the control of the local police/DA organization and independent group such as Internal Affairs should have control.

  30. Gail Combs says:


    What I see is an INTENTIONAL escalation of the “Let’s You and He Fight” between Blacks and Cops with shark lawyers hoping for a big payout from the cities added to the mix. On top of that we now have SJ Warriors hunting and killing cops.

    As Trump mentioned the ‘stop and frisk’ worked. So does the going after the turnstyle jumpers and other bad actors. Criminals are generally really really stupid and have a disregard for ALL laws so go after the small stuff and you catch the guy you were looking for who was doing multiple thefts….

    As the crime goes down the tension deescalates all round.

    Are all cops great guys? He11 NO and they never have been. It is just that now it makes the news.

    For Example:
    In 1968 the New York State Police beat the living crap out of my Dad for failure to use a turn signal while switching lanes on I90 at 3AM. DAD had ZERO record not even traffic tickets and was 64 years old at the time.

    All we can figure is he fit the description of who they were looking for since they dragged him from Rochester back to Syracuse, tossed him in jail (no phone call for 24 hours) and completely tore his company car apart.

    On a side note:
    The doctor who treated dad was livid,
    The lawyer said he had no case,
    One of Dad’s customers who saw the bruises offered to ‘Take care of it’ (Dad was top salesman for a big company.)

  31. D. J. Hawkins says:

    It does come down to training. You look at some of these videos, and the cops are swarming like jackals looking to take down a water buffalo. There is no order, no one in charge, everyone screaming. I’m sure it’s happened, just not on video, that one is yelling “Don’t move!” and the other “Get on the ground!” and dead civilian has been the result. Doubt it even lead to retraining.

    In Tulsa, that moron policewoman should rot until the Second Coming. She had zero situational awareness. The cop right next to her had a taser out and ready. In fact he fired right after she did. Tasered a corpse. If someone had been in charge, directed the response, the worst thing we might have had is a citizen with really sore muscles the following day. Maybe not even that.

  32. Larry Ledwick says:

    This is not just a US phenomenon, populism (anti-globalism) is rising across the western industrialized world.

  33. M Simon says:

    “Modern” policing got the way it did for the simple reason of War On Druggies. At one time it was approved or acquiesced by nearly everyone. At one point only 12% or so opposed it.

    BTW the last time we had policing gone violently bad was during Alcohol Prohibition. You know what people do during Prohibition? They do “legally bad hings” in secret. Everyone is a potential law breaker. Enemies of the State. And who is supposed to deal with that? The State enforcers.

  34. M Simon says:

    Gail Combs says:
    27 September 2016 at 3:29 pm

    “Stop and Frisk” is police State. And has been declared unconstitutional.

  35. Gail Combs says:

    M Simon, I am all for going after the small crap, turn stile jumpers, graffiti sprayers…. and THEN you can frisk.

    And I certainly agree that the ‘War on Drugs’ given the CIA was bringing those drugs into the USA by the plane load, is completely idiotic. Addiction is a medical problem and only turns criminal when the government makes it so.

    Why don’t we have FREEDOM to do what we darn well please with our OWN body? Are we slaves??? (BTW that also goes for abortion during the first 12 weeks, after that there is another person involved instead of some protoplasm.)

  36. Richard Ilfeld says:

    Cops spend a lot of time dealing with bad people. Urban cops deal with a lot of folks who want them dead. It gives you a different perspective.

    Live in Israel, where the ‘murder rate’ is such that every citizen knows a victim. Know that virtually
    every Muslim wants you dead. Know that the person coming into your country to work has been trained from birth that you are an animal guilty of blood libel and your kind should all be driven into the sea. See daily acts affirming this belief. Have shelters available and use them frequently.

    Now react to what looks like a terrorist act in process.

    Don’t confuse the small town cop walking a Mayberry beat with an urban cop knowing that there are lots of bad actors on his or her beat with histories of violence.

    As in many other cases the Charlotte narrative is unwinding as the ‘victims’ past in unearthed and actions are documented. The current Tulsa case shows that the system can work both ways.

    Some anti gun control folks say ‘if guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns’ I say if guns are outlawed only the government will have guns, and that’s worse. Never again. And that’s why SWAT is bad – armed & trained individual cops are needed to deal with an armed and sometimes dangerous populace – but military tactics in police work is a bad place to go.

    If being a cop makes you a target, you’ll be legitimately defensive. Blm folks are terrorists

    We have due process to manage cops misuse of guns on citizens. What due process wou0ld we have is citizens had no rights. A bad guy who wants to kill a cop can still get lawyered up & walk
    away from a lot of raps – just obey commands. Unable or unwilling? What due process does an ambushed cop have? What due process did the victims of rioting have?

  37. Larry Ledwick says:


    “Stop and Frisk” is police State. And has been declared unconstitutional.

    Not correct it has been “asserted” and ruled to be unconstitutional as the judge inferred it was primarily racial in execution, but that ruling has never been challenged appealed or endorsed by the Supreme court.

    It is no more unconstitutional than random drug testing, if it is implemented in a manner that is not discriminatory by nature by profiling only on race rather than some neutral equal opportunity basis.

    The basis for both random drug testing and stop and frisk was to get control of known problems by making the risk of discovery high enough that people would stop doing the prohibited activity.

    The original intent is that police officers would look for “tells” that people might be carrying weapons. People who are packing unconsciously send signals by doing things like patting down their clothing to make sure the gun is not printing on their shirt, unconsciously turning their body away from the police and trying too hard to be natural, trying to look small and making furtive glances toward the cops to try to determine if they had been made etc. If those non-discriminatory tells are what is actually driving the stop and frisk and or they are totally random like random drug testing, it is clearly legal, and constitutional – – – and probably irritating and obnoxious – – – but that is the intent, make discovery likely enough that people leave their guns at home.

  38. M Simon says:

    philjourdan says:
    26 September 2016 at 12:07 pm


    Do you want enforcers or Peace Officers? Attitude makes a LOT of difference?

  39. M Simon says:

    Larry Ledwick says:
    29 September 2016 at 3:29 pm

    Is drug testing to get a job random? Where is the warrant for that search? Oh. It is private companies doing it? The government passed some laws and companies fell in line. Excellent. We used to call that sort of thing when it infringed on citizens fascism. Business is now an arm of the State. Excellent!

    And BTW has it fixed the “known problem”?

    In terms of cost alcohol is a 20X bigger problem. Why don’t we have random testing for alcohol to get a job? Or say “random testing” of everyone who goes outside the company grounds for lunch? Searches on your entry to work to find contraband alcohol. We could fix this if only we had the will and enough enforcers.

    And we can fix the KNOWN alcohol problem. Prohibit it.

  40. Larry Ledwick says:


    And BTW has it fixed the “known problem”?

    Yes it has companies who effectively drug test on employment have far fewer problems with drug abuse by their employees.

    And we can fix the KNOWN alcohol problem. Prohibit it.

    Yeah that worked great in the 1920’s, might want to read up on the St. Valentines Day Massacre.

  41. p.g.sharrow says:

    The Constitution was supposed to be a Prohibition on Governmental excess, even that has proved to be useless…pg

  42. E.M.Smith says:


    Thanks! I’ll need to start watching for the mini-flick gear…


    It is a consequence of Lawyers and cases. Case law now makes it mandatory that you be “in fear of your life” to shoot someone and giving that answer is taught. For police, they (in jurisdictions I know at least) get the added “or fear of some citizen’s life” so they can shoot a fleeing perp who is thought armed and a danger to the community. But in all cases “Fear of life” is mandatory. I can’t fault the cops for listening during the “Cops and The Law” class…

    @Ian W:

    As another person with hearing loss, where conflicting voices and background noise become mush, I’m very sensitive to this issue too. The spouse and I met in a sign language class and she also has hearing loss.

    Which raises the other problem… You have cops shouting at you, hoping one of them knows sign, or at least recognizes it means a person is deaf, you start to “move your hands” to sign “I am deaf and can’t hear you” and you get shot since the first sign it have your hand approach the middle of your chest… where it would go to get a gun from under your jacket … and the cop panics…

    So as soon as there is tension and a “Hands UP!” you have had your voice removed.

    Oh, and yes, “spray and pray” just galls me. I’m from the old “Aim at the target and hit it” school and not “spray 10 bullets down range and hope they don’t kill a kid 1/2 mile away…


    Look at the timing of BLM “suddenly” coming to the fore in the news. Just at the right timing to be a critical crisis in, wait for it, one of THE critical “battle ground States” in the election. IMHO it is a planned “set up” from the start. So a few cops get killed by over exuberant useful idiots in the process, small price to pay to take over a superpower…

    BTW, as about 1 in 2000 people have my name, and I have a very generic “pasty white guy” look, I’ve often found “myself” in the news. The only good thing is that the Smiths of the world seem to do mostly good things. I watched “me” reporting from the river where “me” had drowned, from the comfort of my couch at home. I listened to the radio as one of “me” got blown up in a Shuttle… and had to pull off to the side of the road for a 1/2 hour… as I had the NASA application to be a shuttle astronaut filled out and ready to sign 10 years earlier. But for one signature, that could have been the ‘real me’… ( I knew I’d pass the psych profile as that profile was based on me… and I had the physical knocked at the time… so just needed a Mission Specialist training… but didn’t want to wait a dozen years to then maybe not fly at all.) I was even at Customs coming back from Jamaica as a ’20 something’ with a friend. Leaned around the podium to see what kind of computer gear they were using and saw about 5 instances of “my name” and proudly announced “Hey, there I am!”… at which time the travel companion pointed out “That’s the list of people they are looking for…” “Oh Oh oh… ” said I…. The Agent just rolled his eyes and told us to take our bags and go… uninspected… he had seen the inner geek and knew it was a waste to search us.

    The point of all that? I strongly relate to the “mistaken identity” problem. I’m fully aware that not all people with my name are “nice guys” even if the majority are. I fully expect that “someday” one of “me” will be on a “wants and warrants” list as a “pasty white guy” and I’ll need to spend a few days explaining that “I am not the droid you are looking for”. Like that’s gonna work.

    BTW, there is another person with my name on my block just down the street. Can you imaging what happens to me if he does something that gets him on a “bust down the door” warrant and the officers can’t tell a 6 from a 9 at the last digit? I shudder to think…

    @D.J. Hawkins:

    That is EXACTLY what got me. The swarm of predators look. As you add more bodies, you get a higher probability of someone being a ‘weak link’ and a higher tendency to self reinforcing behaviour. “Officer Bob just disappeared behind the pickup, is he down, does he need my help?” or even just “I hear someone running up behind me” and adrenaline ramps up until you glance and see it’s the backup unit… but the adrenaline remains…

    We need to be teaching non-predator responses, not just predator pack behaviours.


    BINGO! There is a global organized push to eliminate nations (in Europe sometimes called “The Westphalian State”) and ‘tribalism’. I think I’ve identified the root source as Soros, but there are other highly placed “true believers” and I just don’t know if they are ‘agents of influence’ from him, or just ‘fellow travelers’ who have found each other.

    It is organized, has some kind of authority structure, and is working globally (though with special emphasis on the EU, then the Former British Empire, and followed by the USA) while it has been “outed” in Russia by Putin and he is taking steps to quash it in his nation. Most of Africa is being ignored as irrelevant. There is a minor “push” in South America via their EU like efforts. Asia is complicated by the Pakistan / India / China / Japan and / Central Asian Islam blocks. India has started to ‘catch clue’ and push the NGOs to the curb. China has only ever accepted their gifts of western industrial power in exchange for ‘pretty words’… that’s going to end badly for the Globalists… Japan has staunchly resisted all the calls for an influx of non-Japanese to “solve their demographic problem” (largely created by following the guidance of the Europeans…) and then all the Muslims are just intractable… So we’ve now got national destruction from Tunisia to Iraq and spreading. Did someone just ‘give up’ on getting them to ‘go along with the club’ and be culturally assimilated? Or is it a method for diaspora of Islam to help bring down the west? Hard to say.

    The Non-Globalists are still a disorganized rabble of individual actors with divergent POV, goals and understandings. No funding and little political power (as ‘parasitizing’ of governments and NGOs has been a strong effort by the Globalists). Yet they are starting to see the hidden patterns of action as those become, necessarily, overt; and they are seeing that they can NOT trust their governments or even the pleasant sounding NGOs. ( I was at one time a Greenpeace supporter, a ‘Friend of the Earth’er, etc. Now, not a dime.) The National movements are also hearing about each other and starting to realize “we are not alone” and the opponent is global.

    It’s early in the 2nd period and things are getting interested, even if the score is 5 to 1 so far…

    @M. Simon:

    I agree 100% on ending the War On Drugs. (Hell, the War On {anything and everything} needs to end. It wastes money and destroys lives. Build and fix, not war.)

    But as noted in the next comment down from yours and the one by Larry farther down, it was only found that way by one small judge and that’s as close to meaningless as you can get. Further, it was only under the one circumstance that the judge found objectionable: Disparate application. There are “stops” and “frisks” going on all over the nation every single hour. Just need probable cause / strong suspicion based on behaviour.

    Now, IMHO, the 2nd amendment means what it says, and folks ought to be allowed to carry and without begging the local government to give them permission to exercise a constitutional right. It was that way for 100 years+… Heck, watch movies from the ’40s and it was that way then. In my home town in the ’50 and ’60s we had folks doing open carry (and many with concealed carry per what they said – a few who also showed). Even into the ’70s when I worked in a hotel, folks would ask me to stash their gun in the office drawer when they were headed toward the bar as it had become illegal to have a gun in a bar (like leaving it in the car to be stolen by ‘bad guys’ or handing it to a random 18 year old hotel clerk to stash is a better thing…)

    So yeah, I’m all for individual freedoms. Be it what you consume, or what you carry.

    But that doesn’t make it illegal for cops to shake down bad guys for cause. (Ban that, you have zero policing and a lot of janitorial “clean up on alley 7″…)


    I think he was being sarcastic… re-read in that light…

    A question:

    If I don’t have privacy inside my own skin, and don’t have ownership of myself, what liberty is left?

    I’m 100% against all job related drug testing. I’m 100% for performance based “kick them off the job”. I knew when any of my employees showed up impaired. FWIW, hangovers were often higher error rates than my MJ Smoker… he’d get slow and forgetful, but produced so much more on other days it was worth it to keep him. He also had much better “customer relations” skills and the folks “on the floor” loved him for tech support. Then there were the guys with “a few under the belt” that did better than when they were sober… Sales guys especially were good on “dialing for dollars” then.

    There is no “one size fits all cure”…

  43. M Simon says:

    Larry Ledwick says:
    29 September 2016 at 5:40 pm

    Yeah that worked great in the 1920’s, might want to read up on the St. Valentines Day Massacre.

    Well thank you very much for proving my point. Prohibition doesn’t work and leads to increased violence.

    We are much stupider than we used to be. It only took 13 years to get the lessons of alcohol Prohibition.

    Now my personal question for you is: Why haven’t you learned those lessons?



    The racial disparities in Stop and Frisk are important. Why? If the policy was applied equally it would end. White people wouldn’t stand for having their kids harassed on the streets by police. They would call Cong. Critters, Senators, Police Chiefs etc. and it would stop.

    A former DEA Agent makes the same point about the Drug War in this video:–I starting about 1 minute 30 seconds in

  44. M Simon says:


    There is no “one size fits all cure”…

    There is better and worse. As Winston Churchill once observed Americans have a tendency to choose all the worst options until they come to their senses. Let me find the exact quote.

    “You can always count on the Americans to do the right thing after they have tried everything else.”

  45. E.M.Smith says:


    Blacks and Hispanics basically own the gangs, drug dealing, and related crimes. Bob White at the Saratoga prom is their customer but not packing and selling. That is why it has differential spplication. Then when called out, Bob White meekly surrenders while black males and hispanics have a lot higher rate of resisting and fighting., thus more get shot.

    This is from personal observation of who sold the drugs my roomies bought over decades, their character, and what I observed when I, as a white guy, and my white guy friends got stopped and frisked… Go to the shady side to buy and the cars are full of white johns, the guys selling darker and prone to priors, flight snd fight. Those are just facts.

    Now in my old home town, it was all white with only a few asian and hispanic. The poor selling were white too… and they were the ones being stopped, frisked, and busted… The point? It isn’t a racial bias, it is an anti-poor bias. Because they must resort to illegal actions to survive.

    It is essential for police to be able to stop suspects and WITH GOOD PROBABLE CAUSE conduct a search. If you don’t have that, you don’t have police, you have street greeters and crime sceen janitors.

    The problem isn’t in police busting criminals, it is in criminalizing actions that are really free choice. Drugs, possession of guns, standing around (loitering), etc.

  46. E.M.Smith says:

    On the legality of stop and frisk, do note that we all get stoped from boarding and frisked (some higher tech than others) whenever at an airport to fly somewhere. Calling that voluntary is a bit of a farce…

  47. Gail Combs says:

    M Simon says: ….
    The problem is that X% of White who are criminals =/= X% of Hispanic who are criminals =/= X% of Black who are criminals.

    Also the places there IS high crime are going to be inner cities where most people are black/minorities.


    Do I agree that government interference starting with FDR’s minimum wage is responsible for the problems in the Black community? HE!! YES!

    But you can not fix the problem WITHOUT first establishing Law and Order. The Globalist are very much NOT interested in a lawful, prosperous USA they want Chaos and are USING the Blacks to forment it. Hence Black Lives Matter and Black Panthers and the influx of foreigners.

    If the pot stirring continues with Hillary as president and the economy continues it’s downward spiral, you are going to see the attitude of the majority swing, people will be looking for an outlet for Frustration and Anger and the Blacks (and muslems and Hispanics) will find themselves in the crosshairs. It worked wonders in the 1930s in Germany. Same exact set-up for implementing totalitarian rule.

  48. Jason Calley says:

    Hey E.M., “Or is it a method for diaspora of Islam to help bring down the west?”

    If I had to guess I would say, yes, it is to bring down the west. Why? Because the West has been infected for the last 200 years with a virulent case of the most dangerous meme in the world — dangerous, at least, if you consider yourself to be a member of a ruling elite, a rancher of human beings. That meme is the belief in intrinsic human rights, the idea that each individual has a right to own themselves, their property and the results of their labor. That is a dangerous idea!

    I like it! :)

  49. Gail Combs says:

    Jason, you nailed it and I am stealing it.

    This is the idea I have been trying to get across for years. The Elite hate the USA and hate the idea of a free middle class. They want a feudal system back and Marxism is the way they are selling it.

    Interesting that Marx referred to the masses as Human Waste and so does Margaret Sanger

    Marx an Engels, 14. August 1879
    “Als wir heut morgen im Hôtel de l’Europe anfrugen, traf es sich glücklich so, daß grade 60 Franzosen sich auf die Abreise vorbereiteten, während andrerseits die mit frischem Menschenkehricht belasteten steamers noch nicht eingetroffen.”

    The Google translate:
    “When we anfrugen* this morning at the Hôtel de l’Europe, it happened so happy that grade 60 French were preparing to depart, while on the other hand the loaded with fresh human waste steamers not yet arrived”

    *erfrugen = inquire (for)**

    So anfrugen is likely a misspelling.

  50. p.g.sharrow says:

    @M Simon; new addition to the prohibition of natural drugs:
    There is no proof of accepted medical value and they want to prevent any continued research…pg

Comments are closed.