This is a surprise. Mice with the normal ability to make their own Vit C knocked out, so they are like humans, get more atherosclerotic plaques with sub-clinical Vit C levels. Give them enough Vit C, the don’t get plaques. 24 minutes. A bit technical, but has pictures too ;-)
Looks like some folks in South Korea found a similar thing:
http://healthdoctrine.com/high-levels-of-vit-c-reduce-heart-disease-risk/
High Levels Of Vit-C Reduce Heart Disease Risk
A group of researchers from the University of Ulsan in South Korea after a recent study has claimed that people who have low amount of Vitamin C in their body are 2.4 times more prone to have high levels of a protein named hsCRP. hsCRP is responsible for developing inflammation or swelling and heart diseases in people. The researcher group has mentioned that people who have low levels of Vit-C and hsCRP protein in the amount over 3 mg/liter are two times more prone to die from cardiovascular diseases than others. Researchers have claimed that the study is the first to disclose the link between Vit – C in body and heart diseases.
Eun Kyeung Song who is the assistant professor in nursing in the College of Medicine under the University of Ulsan has mentioned that it is been found that people with high levels of Vit C in body have higher survival chance in heart failure than people who have low Vit C in body. According to the statement received at the Ulsan University’s side the researchers conducted the study over 212 patients of average 61 years. Among those patients one third was women and almost 45 per cent of the patients were likely to have severe heart failure.
Looks like a lot of other folks found the same thing. Here’s a DuckDuckGo search on “Vitamin C cardiovascular disease”. I’ve “gently broken” the links so I don’t have to deal with a lot of HTML formatting. Just do a DDG search and you ought to get these results.
Vitamin C and Heart Health: A Review Based on Findings from …
Vitamin C is a powerful dietary antioxidant that has received considerable attention in the literature related to its possible role in heart health. Although classical vitamin C deficiency, marked by scurvy, is rare in most parts of the world, some research has shown variable heart disease risks …
[Search domain www. ncbi.nlm.nih. gov] https: //www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5000725/Vitamin C and Cardiovascular Disease – Orthomolecular. org
Vitamin C and Cardiovascular Disease A Personal Viewpoint by Alan Spencer and Andrew W. Saul (OMNS, June 22, 2010) Linus Pauling was aware that studies of the animal kingdom showed that most animals have the ability to manufacture vitamin C in their bodies.
[Search domain orthomolecular. org] orthomolecular. org/resources/omns/v06n20.shtmlAdequate Vitamin C Linked to Lower Risk for Heart Disease
In addition to heart disease, vitamin C is considered an anti-aging vitamin and actually reversed age-related abnormalities in mice with a premature aging disorder, restoring healthy aging. 9 It has also been found to play a role in preventing the common cold, cancer, osteoarthritis, age-related macular degeneration, asthma, and more.
[Search domain articles.mercola. com] https: //articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2015/08/03/vitamin…High vitamin C intake lowers risk of coronary heart disease …
In reality, it turns out that daily supplementation with a safe and inexpensive vitamin can help provide major protective benefits to the heart, while helping to prolong life. Extensive research has confirmed that vitamin C drastically lowers the risk of developing cardiovascular disease – in one …
[Search domain www. naturalhealth365.com] https: //www.naturalhealth365.com/vitamin-c-coronary-heart-disease-2095.htmlVitamin C related to reduced risk of cardiovascular disease …
High vitamin C concentrations in the blood from the intake of fruit and vegetables are associated with a reduced risk of cardiovascular disease and early death, new research shows. The study …
[Search domain www. sciencedaily. com] https: //www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/07/150707082350.htmUsing Vitamin C for Heart Disease, Cancer and Cell Protection
Dr. Linus Pauling said that heart disease is a manifestation of chronic scurvy, and atherosclerotic plaque is a mechanism evolved to repair or patch blood vessels and arteries damaged by chronic vitamin C deficiency.
[Search domain drsircus. com] https: //drsircus.com/cancer/using-vitamin-c-for-heart-disease-…Cforyourself: Heart Disease & Vitamin C
Just as heart disease is primarily a disease of the vascular system, strokes are primarily a result of a deteriorated cerebrovascular system. A recent long-term study showed that high vitamin C levels were correlated to a reduced incidence of stroke.
[Search domain www. cforyourself. com] www. cforyourself.com/Conditions/Heart_Disease/heart_disease.htmlVitamin C Benefits Protect Against Heart Disease
The higher the levels of vitamin C in the blood, the lower the risk for heart disease and early mortality. The researchers concluded that high vitamin C intake at least partially explains the link between fruit and vegetable consumption and lowered risk for disease.
[Search domain universityhealthnews. com] https: //universityhealthnews.com/daily/heart-health/vitamin-c-benefits-pro…Vitamin C Benefits, Sources, Supplements, & More – WebMD
But the benefits of vitamin C may include protection against immune system deficiencies, cardiovascular disease, prenatal health problems, eye disease, and even skin wrinkling.
[Search domain www. webmd.com] https: //www.webmd.com/diet/features/the-benefits-of-vitamin-c
Cardiovascular Disease Specialist – Better Search – Faster Results
Speedy, Fast, And Accurate Results For Cardiovascular Disease Specialist
[undefined] www. zenya.com
Musings from the Chiefio 
After watching the video (no sound) and reading the text excerpts provided, I’m unclear on what a therapeutic dose of vitamin C might be and what a maintenance should be.
I started taking a 500mg tab of C in the morning and one in the evening, based on the last discussion here some months ago. I believe the discussion centered on its beneficial interactions or perhaps catalytic properties with other vitamins and perhaps its role in diabetes.
Anyhow, I’m always leery of overdoing vitamins instead of determining and taking what is adequate. Too many people think that if a little is good a whole lot is better. I don’t roll that way, but I thought I’d take a look around the interwebs and found this fairly straightforward article from the Mayo Clinic:
https://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements-vitamin-c/art-20363932
Looks like the recommended dose for men is 90 mg per day, so I’m going to cut out taking one of those 500 mg tablets and quarter the other ones to 125 mg. That’s daily dosage.
I’m still not clear what a therapeutic dose would be and when it is indicated.
Vit C is peculiar since in most animals it is not a vitamin but a hormone. There’s a very short list of mammals that need to eat Vit. C. Something like Humans, Chimps, and hamsters or gerbils or some such.
The amount you need varies with your conditions. When under strong viral attack or other infection, the amount needed can rise dramatically. Under low stress and not ill, it drops back.
So when I’ve got some virus started, I’ll eat up to 10 GRAMS a day. It is water soluble so any excess just gets peed out anyway. The overdose symptoms are a tendency to “loose bowels” and I’ve never managed to take that much, but YMMV. For folks prone to kidney stones, Vit C to excess can oxidize to oxalic acid and that can be an issue in excess conditions.
When I don’t take enough, I’ll feel a peculiar irritation / tingle to the gums and inside lips. I usually get enough from diet, but if not eating well I’ll add a pill. I’m likely to start 500 mg / day based on the way that a sub-clinical level (i.e. not having scurvy or other symptoms) DID result in artery issues. An easy first approximation would be to look at the RDA and double it. Remember that’s the level that prevents blatant sickness. You really need more than that for optimal health (per the article)
I’ll go months without taking any, then regret it when something tries to move in. I need to become more regular about it.
IIRC, the “standard” advice ranges from 100 mg at the low end (close to the 90 mg you found, but really needs to be body size calibrated) to 10 G at the top end with overdose symptoms for a few people. That’s a 100:1 ratio10,000 : 100 so you have a lot of wiggle room. A 500 mg is going to be pretty lame in that range, especially given that the approved dose is based on keeping observed scurvy away and these folks are saying that’s not quite enough to keep arteries optimal. Personally, I’m going with the 500 mg at the low end ( 5 x minimum for no clinical scurvy) and 1 G at the top en ( double that base dose, and 1/10 th the dose where some folks get a bit of looseness in the loo…)
E.M.: ” It is water soluble so any excess just gets peed out anyway.”
Ah, now I recall that was pointed out in the prior discussion. Thanks.
And that’s why I originally settled on 500 mg twice a day, figuring I’d be keeping a more stable level of what’s needed around the clock and eliminating the excess.
I’ll stick with the dosage I picked when the topic was discussed earlier and forego the PITA of chopping up the tabs I have.
My recollection is that your body generally does not absorb much more than 250 mg per dose so the recommendation I have heard is to take 250mg 2x per day, beyond that unless you have some special need for it, it does not do much good. I take a multi vitamin every day, and occasionally add a 500 mg Vit C just to be sure I have adequate intake.
Note vitamin C and aspirin are close cousins chemically and and high intake of one suppresses intake of the other. Caffeine being a diuretic tends to wash vitamin C out of the body so if you have a high intake of caffeine or diuretics keep that in mind.
Vitamin C also helps cellular oxygenation, and or minimizes damage from anoxia so folks with oxygen uptake problems are supposed to benefit by ensuring they are well dosed with it, but have not seen any benefit from mega dose intake. Suboptimal Vit C can lead to anemia also.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15454281
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3533831/
Seems high dose Vit E and C together is beneficial for head injury recovery too.
Click to access Chapter18_0.pdf
25 years ago sun damage and poor diet had reduced the skin on the back of my hands to thin and be damaged at the slightest insult. On study I hit on the need for Vitamins C&E and began with 2000mg C and 260mg E and my skin thickened and got stronger. While C is water soluble and hard to Over Dose, E is fat soluble and excess accumulates. At saturation bleeding occurs because clotting is reduced. As anti-oxidants these reduce the the oxygen demands as well improves skin texture. A good indication of tissue inside is the condition of the skin outside. After a time the C excess caused kidney complaints so I settled on 1500 C and 260 E as max dose taken once or twice a week as needed. Also a bowl of OatMeal once or twice a week as needed. Oat Meal helps purge plaque/ fat from the blood and from around the heart. Heavy exercise and rough work tells me when I need more or less …pg
I had been taking 1,000 mg Vitamin C morning and evening. On my second hip replacement the surgeon, part of a large, strongly outcome-oriented practice prescribed 2,000 mg twice daily. I did well, at the 30-day follow-up visit asked about the high dose. Surgeon explained that his group had studied outcomes, found that dose was optimal.
I’ve maintained that dosage level since, as well as daily Vitamins D and E. Notice that colds are rare and pass within a day or two; I seem to heal quickly, particularly for someone at Medicare age.
There are studies that show large intravenous Vitamin C doses, with other medicines, are very effective against toxic shock / sepsis.
https://journal.chestnet.org/article/S0012-3692(16)62564-3/fulltext
Hydrocortisone, Vitamin C, and Thiamine for the Treatment of Severe Sepsis and Septic Shock
Results
There were 47 patients in both treatment and control groups, with no significant differences in baseline characteristics between the two groups. The hospital mortality was 8.5% (4 of 47) in the treatment group compared with 40.4% (19 of 47) in the control group (P < .001). The propensity adjusted odds of mortality in the patients treated with the vitamin C protocol was 0.13 (95% CI, 0.04-0.48; P = .002). The Sepsis-Related Organ Failure Assessment score decreased in all patients in the treatment group, with none developing progressive organ failure. All patients in the treatment group were weaned off vasopressors, a mean of 18.3 ± 9.8 h after starting treatment with the vitamin C protocol. The mean duration of vasopressor use was 54.9 ± 28.4 h in the control group (P < .001).
This one is a bit long, but more detail from the guy who figured out this stuff. 1 hour 22 minutes.
He must be right, he speaks with an accent ;-)
At 47 minutes he talks about reversing and removing arterial deposits. Uses a mix of Vit c, Lysine (meat, fish, beans are rich sources), and Vit B3 Niacin.
Thanks for this. I’ve been a Vit C user for some time, using it when an infection threatens. I also have autoimmune issues (Lupus, maybe others) and find it useful to reduce the severity and duration of a flare – thankfully these are usually minor, but joint pain etc. would be triggered by fighting a virus.
Generally, a change in diet several years ago helped. I already had a good diet, but went gluten free again, then low carb (but not very low) reducing portions of rice, potato etc. and replacing them with larger portions of vegetables or salad. A work colleague a few years back had me looking into so-called sirtfoods, of which I’d eat a lot anyway https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25008762.
I saw your post a few weeks back about lectins and thanks to you am aware of potential oxalate issues, although they seem not to be an issue, thankfully.
I do find I have issues at times with histamine intolerance (HI), but providing I don’t go OTT with certain foods/red wine/aged cheese I’m fine. HI can be due to low enzyme activity, which in turn can be linked to leaky gut. I did accidentally eat wheat twice in one week while travelling recently. I did have several days of ‘loose bowels’ but not severe, and subsequently symptoms of HI. Link via zonulin => leaky gut? I am thinking that way. That episode told me enough that I know I do NOT want to be tested for Coeliac Disease, which would mean eating wheat for several months to get the antibody levels up.
@Verity:
Nice to hear from you again!
For me, the fact that the gliadin part of gluten directly stimulates the zonulin mechanism and makes the intestinal permeability higher; that was an Ah-Ha moment. I like having a mechanism.
Then the way lectins can attach to other “stuff” all over the body and cause mayhem does point a big finger at them.
Combine the 2, it’s a whole system.
We’ve been using up the last of the wheat products and getting closer to zero guten. It alone has made a significant difference. There ARE other products that contribute to a “leaky gut” (booze, NSAIDs, some others). That the primary treatment for the discomforts, NSAIDs, causes degradation of one of the root causes is a bit pernicious.
So as of now I’m down to nearly no aspirin ( 2 when something big happens maybe once a month) where before I’d worked up to 2 to 4 most days. The sciatic pains I’d had some times has faded to almost none (sporadic every day or three). This has been an ongoing on-and-off thing for about 20 years after some too aggressive jumping on a shovel displaced that odd pelvic joint.
I’m also suspecting that the subclinical scurvy from low Vit C, as it interferes with collagen integrity, may will also contribute to “leaky gut”. Then the issue of low Mg and low D3 levels in most folks can perhaps be exacerbating around the edges.
So it looks to me like the general “recovery” pattern is to get Vit C up to high levels ( 1 g or 2 g / day) and add Mg, D3, and B3; while removing things that contribute to higher intestinal permeability (gluten, NSAIDs, etc.) along with removing the sources of problematic lectins as much as possible. That whole “Paleo Diet” thing – lots of leaves, tubers, and fish / birds / meat. Grains & Beans not so much (though pressure cooked beans looks OK). Fish and fruit for light meals (I like a sardines and fruit breakfast some times ;-) but usually use High Omega-3 eggs. Sushi once / week on a regular basis. Avocado based mayo and since it’s easy to get here, regular avocados ;-)
Beyond that the fine points of avoiding A1 Casein milk products and instead using A2 / sheep / goat products. Then getting the Omega-3 level way up and just avoiding all Omega-6 oils. (I’ve just swapped over to mild flavor Olive Oil for everything reasonable. Coconut oil for some baking. We do have some high mono-unsaturated seed oil – Safflower? – for baking that needs a highly neutral oil, but rarely used. When that seed oil is used up I’ll not be adding more.)
FWIW, I did a “challenge” of wheat based ramen 2 x days in a row – at which time all the aches and pains and discomforts returned. It looks like about 36 to 48 hours is enough for a response. A challenge with potatoes had no discomfort so, at least for me, the lectin in potato seems to do nothing bad. This may require more testing after a constant baseline of “no problem” is established.
One other minor point: I’d had a few minor “spots” where I’d scratched, and then it didn’t want to heal right. It would try, scab over, itch, get scratched again… Often going on for years, sometimes slowly migrating location. Those have essentially healed now. My “guess” is that leaky gut let lectins and other “not quite right” protein fragments into the blood. These got incorporated into the “repair”, that was then subject to immune system attack. Scratch and repeat… The change of diet seems to have eliminated that whole process. Basically my “bad skin” is clearing up nicely.
So we’re slowly converting to your basic Paleo approach, reducing grains in particular and seeds in general, getting Omega-3 up, Omega-6 out, and lectins down. Seems to be working.
I think it is possible to roughly calculate the amount of vitamin C needed daily. The result is fairly close to measurements on different animals that produce vitamin C internally. Starting point regarding animals:
Animals seem to need between 5-10 grams of vitamin C normalized to a body mass of 80 kg. When an animal is stressed more is produced. Gorillas that don’t produce vitamin C by themselves have been estimated to consume ca. 5 grams of vitamin C per day. Gorillas deprived of vitamin C get the same cardiovascular problems as humans.
How to estimate the amount of vitamin C needed per day:
There is some kind of “consensus” ;) that the turn over time for tissue in the human body is roughly seven years. Obviously the turn over speed is much faster in some areas but seven years could be a conservative guess.
It is estimated the roughly 30% of the human body consists of collagen.
In a healthy human body any collagen that is broken down should be replaced by new high quality collagen.
The daily collagen production can then be calculates as:
Collagen=Collagen_in_body/(365 days/year * 7 years)
Substituting real values gives:
Collagen/day = 0.3*80000g/(365*7) = 9.4 g
So roughly 9.4 grams of collagen is produced in the body per day.
How to connect the collagen production to vitamin C:
Collagen consists of three protein strands twined together and welded every third turn meaning that with three strands there is one chemical weld per turn of the strand. One vitamin C molecule is destroyed per weld spot. Looking at the chemical structure of collagen one sees that roughly the same amount of vitamin C is needed as the molecular weight of the collagen produced. Notice that one simply takes the molecular mass of three turns of a collagen molecule and compares this to the molecular weight of three vitamin C molecules. Notice that we are doing a back of the envelope calculation!!!
The result is then that if all chemical weld points are welded (best quality collagen) then 5 – 10 g of vitamin C is needed. We can perhaps conservatively assume that 5g is needed per day for good collagen production.
It seems obvious that if there isn’t enough vitamin C available collagen is still produced but some weld points aren’t welded. We can now use the calculated amount above (5g) to look to look at what happens when there is a vitamin C deficiency.
From literature it is estimated that if the intake goes below ca. 50 mg/day then the person gets acute scurvy. Using the chemical view of collagen as a starting point it then probably means that only a small part N= 50mg/5000mg that is every 1/100 weld point is actually welded. The rigid rope turns into a cotton like fiber. Below 50 mg the fiber quality is so poor that blood vessels start to leak, tooth are falling out because the glue keeping them in place (collagen) is of inferior quality. The person gets joint problems because the working surfaces of the joints is collagen that again is of poor quality.
Linus Pauling the famous chemist took ca. 18 grams of vitamin C per day. His reasoning was that perhaps 50% of the vitamin C he eats is destroyed in the stomach before being absorbed.
@Lars:
Very interesting calculation… I wonder if there is some simple way to assess the degree of cross linking. Not just “are you bleeding” scurvy end, but also “fully linked” end. Perhaps some kind of skin deflection or “toughness” test.
Any ideas on how collagen quality could be directly measured are very welcome … including speculation because speculation may trigger good ideas in some reader.
It looks like Vit C has a complicated function in the skin. More is moved to the skin surface to protect against UV damage, but it also causes more collagen to form (not just better bonded collagen).
https://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/health-disease/skin-health/vitamin-C
This can reduce wrinkles and such in the skin. So it looks like one measure would be some kind of skin thickness, elasticity, and non-wrinkle observations.
Perhaps pull a pinch of skin on the back of the hand and observe thickness, wrinkling degree, and rebound time when released (elasticity).
I was thinking of looking at things like the ear and ear lobe which are mostly collagen, perhaps measure their density and resilience with something like a durometer used for testing tire and elastomer hardness. Perhaps you could also look at the transparency of the ear tissue in various colors of light or some other indirect measure.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shore_durometer
Ear lobe creases as a possible indicator of heart disease:
https://www.healthline.com/health/heart-disease/ear-creases#takeaway
A reference which includes pictures of the crease they are referring to.
https://stanfordmedicine25.stanford.edu/blog/archive/2015/what-is-the-name-of-this-sign.html
S.R.Sharma et.al. “Effect of vitamin C on collagen biosynthesis and degree of birefringence in polarization sensitive optical coherence tomography (PS-OCT)” gives some background on the collagen synthesis.
Googling “skin collangen quality”, “RAMAN collagen quality” etc turned up a number of interesting articles. I got a feeling that probably RAMAN spectroscopy could be used directly to measure collagen cross linking levels directly from the skin surface using laser.
The Shore durometer could be a simple thing to modify and implement for measuring skin elasticity and collagen quality. I probably have everything needed to make a simple test device ;) .
Geinea pig ears could probably be used to check the effect of different levels of vitamin c in relation to elasticity.
Read a somewhat old book by futurist Ray Kurzweil, “The 10% Solution.” But if you are already in dire straights, google: Caldwell Esselstyn heart disease. Kurzweil and Esselstyn both used 10% fat diets, but Esselstyn, working with patients with advanced coronary artery disease, goes a step farther by dropping dietary cholesterol to zero.