M.D. Case Report On Hydroxychloroquine

In general, it looks to me like it helps / works. Best if started early. No surprise as blocking replication would work best before the virus has replicated a load.

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About E.M.Smith

A technical managerial sort interested in things from Stonehenge to computer science. My present "hot buttons' are the mythology of Climate Change and ancient metrology; but things change...
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240 Responses to M.D. Case Report On Hydroxychloroquine

  1. Foyle says:

    0.3% death rate with this treatment An ongoing french test has 1971 treated with it + zithromax.
    Probably need a little longer to be conclusive. But seems it could reduce it to ‘bad flu’ and save the world.

  2. Another Ian says:

    Maybe we are looking at the new “corona virus cocktail – a gin and tonic with an ivermectin chaser”?

  3. Richard Bellew says:

    Just saw on Twitter @DrEricDing that Swedish Chloroquine trial has been halted due side effects.

    [Reply: Reminder, chloroquine and hydroxychloroqiune are different drugs with different side effects profiles. -E.M.Smith]

  4. YMMV says:

    He says zinc is important and recommends 15 – 30 mg, the same he takes every day. Later he says another doctor’s treatment is 220 mg for 5 days.

    The RDA is 11 mg per day and the Tolerable Upper Intake Levels (UL) of zinc for people who are not receiving zinc under medical supervision: adults 19 years and older (including pregnancy and lactation) is 40 mg/day. (see website for details by age, etc)

  5. Ian W says:

    @YMMV Yes the hydroxychloroquine will reduce inflammation but does not kill the virus directly. However, it is an ionophore allowing extra-cellular zinc to cross cell walls and the zinc inside the cell interferes with/blocks viral RNA transcription. Patients in hospital who are not eating will not be very high in zinc so the successful trials have included zinc sulfate as part of the regiment with hydroxychloroquine and an antibiotic.
    I sometimes wonder if the CDC trials have been set up to fail while doctors on the front line are taking self prescribed hyrdoxychloroquine prophylactically.

    Imagine how many front line nurses and medical staff have died because CDC refused to sanction the prophylactic use of hydroxychloroquine despite it being shown as safe for prophylactic use for 50 years. Perhaps that is the problem it costs only 10c a tablet, is a generic, there’s no profit in it nor any clever research.
    So not only are people dying unnecessarily but the world economy too.

  6. David A says:

    Ian, IMV a very important post. Why the WHO resistance to something that had clear benefits IF done correctly.

  7. H.R. says:

    Well, that’s my understanding. Use Hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine or quinine plus zinc to prevent your bod from becoming overwhelmed by the Wuhan flu.

    As I understand it, it’s the first line of defense. If all goes according to plan. It’s all the defense you need as the quinine derivatives plus the zinc kick virus butt while you are cranking out antibodies. I could be off by one or two nanometers… or galaxies in my understanding.

    Again, if all goes according to plan and they are right about HCQ + the Z-pac + zinc, then all we are up against is a drug-ameliorated annoying bug.

    Also, my understanding is that there are drugs that should kick out the bug if it gets really serious, such as “bunny dip” and a few others.

    If anything or anyone besides the Chinese Virus needs an ass kicking, it’s the CDC, WHO, FDA, and a few other TLAs as well as the YSM, the swamp, and the Deep State.

    Understand that it is not in their interest to put a halt to this pandemic. Strewth.

  8. jim2 says:

    Yesterday, Trump was telling people to try hydroxychloroquine if the patient is not doing well anyway. Reporters tried to question him doing this – he blew them off. Later in the briefing, Fauci fielded a question, then a reporter asked his opinion of hydroxychloroquine. Trump cut them off – to his credit. Trump’s focus is on saving lives, not a medical religious war that will kill people.

  9. jim2 says:

    @ Richard Bellew – I don’t see ANY clinical trial in Sweden for quinine-related derivatives. You wouldn’t be spreading FUD would you? AKA BS?


  10. Cows and Guns says:

    I found this article very informative. It explains a lot of things, especially California’s low numbers now, and very bad and early flu season last year..


  11. Richard Bellew says:

    @ Jim2 – Not deliberately, if at all. I saw this post by dr Eric Feigle-Ding @DrEricDing on Twitter at about 7am cet this morning. Text from his post 8 hrs ago “ Chloroquine #COVID19 trial discontinued in Sweden cuz of severe side effects- seizure and vision problems in patients. (📍Early clinical trial termination is strictly guided by data safety monitoring committees- stoppages are rare & big deal bad signs)” if you search Twitter for @DrEricDing (he’s a Harvard epidemiologist by the way) you should see the whole post.Sorry I don’t know how to post it in full here).

  12. E.M.Smith says:

    The different forms of zinc (sulphate, carbonate, …) have different absorption and utilization. Watch out comparing doses. One form might need 3 or 4 times the dose of another form to get the same blood level. Dr.s know this.

    FWIW, Dr. Ban Truong has another video about 2 patients on Hydroxychloroquine for RA who got Wuhan Covid. Both were lacking fever (due to drugs used most likely) but did have loss of sense of smell and taste. The R.A. dose is 1/2 the Chinese Virus theraputic dose… He just added antibiotic + vitamins & minerals and both recovered. (One an 80 year old…where he used doxycyline instead of zpack due to their other medications) He did not increase their hydroxychloroquine dose.

    My conclusion is that zinc deficiency is a key issue.


    One symptom of zinc deficit is loss of sense of smell and taste. One symptom of Covid is too.


    Chinese Wuhan Covid-19 infection depletes zinc causing loss of sense of smell & taste and improving the environment for itself to multiply.

    Testing zinc level in patients with severe symptoms would be enlightening, I think…

    Too much zinc causes issues (interfers with copper…) so don’t overdo it, but make sure you have enough. My daily multyvit says it has 24 mg / 160% RDA – Walmart Equate brand for men; so a regular vitamin & mineral daily may be fine.

    Old folks generally don’t eat as much as younger folks, and absorb nutrients less well. Combined, this causes older folks to be more likely to have trace mineral and vitamin deficiency. Then staying inside out of the sun they tend to even more Vit D shortage. IMHO this could easily be why they have a worse disease course. So keep your vitamin & mineral status up to snuff and get some sun if possible.

    Oh, and phytates in legumes & grains tend to chelate zinc, so vegetarians have issues with it. Don’t take your vit pill with your chili beans or brown rice… Best natural source is oysters (then clams, eggs…) so eat your Oyster stew ;-)

  13. cdquarles says:

    EM’s thesis is plausible. Reminder, that will not necessarily work generally. Within group differences often exceed between group differences.

    Reminder: too much of any ‘heavy’ metal causes issues. Not all of them are known well enough.

  14. ossqss says:

    Hmmmmm, this is certainly interesting.


  15. E.M.Smith says:


    OMG! So my weekly hot saki and, um, “frequent” medicinal gin & tonic might actualky be working? I think I need to check the “nose” on my Scotch more often :-)


    OMG2! Golly, I forgot to cite myself!

    Wonder what the OD frequency is for gin & tonic and impact on memory… ;-)

  16. Ossqss says:

    @everyone! ;-)

    If it works…..

  17. Richard Bellew says:

    @EM: Please would you check whether a post of mine is stuck in moderation? (I don’t see why it would be, but I wouldn’t, would I). It was posted about 4 hours ago in response to jim2’s post above at 11:30 giving the source of the report whose validity he queried. Many thanks. Richard

  18. tom0mason says:

    An interesting video. Begs the question, ‘who to believe?’

  19. Another Ian says:

    Globalism face to face

    “Those Who Control The Medicines Control The World”


    Would you like some melanin with that?

  20. Gail Combs says:

    Just to toss some humor into the world….

  21. Gail Combs says:

    From the ladies:

    Interesting article that goes along with the physician that said we should not be using a ventilator because it is doing more harm than good.


  22. Another Ian says:

    An injection of wry humour

    “Monday Mirthiness – Tweet of the Year”


  23. H.R. says:

    @Gail – Just a day or two ago, I first heard about the doctor who said the ventilators were not the correct approach and that getting more oxygen was the answer.

    I had been thinking, why are they putting people on ventilators when 50% or better die? Who keeps trying stuff that doesn’t work?

    So this doc comes along to recognize ventilators aren’t working and looks elsewhere with an informed, educated guess and increasing O2 seems to be working far better than ventilators.

    So what if his success rate is maybe only 70% or 80%? Stop the treatment you know doesn’t work and start with something that shows more promise of working.
    I know you have a production background, Gail, and there are some engineers here and IT people who had to produce things that worked. Would anyone’s boss have accepted something that only worked 1/2 the time*? Heck no! They’d say stop wasting time and money on it and find something that does work.

    *Bill Gates and Windows being the exception ;o)

  24. Another Ian says:


    Updated at Small Dead Animals

    “Wuhan Flu: “This is a completely new disease” ”


    Copy of the paper in comments by Jason – 3rd comment

  25. E.M.Smith says:

    @Richard Bellew:

    Done. And thanks for the poke. There were several other comments in moderation and spam. No clear idea why on any of them.

    Folks might want to scroll back up and check for them.

  26. E.M.Smith says:

    @Another Ian:

    Interesting article. I’d been pondering hyperbaric chambers vs ventilators. .. now I don’t have to, it is already being investigated.

  27. ossqss says:

    I thought this might provide a good distraction. :-)

  28. Another Ian says:


    Check your email for an example of the boredom of the 12th day. Subject “Emailing 9021 – – .mp4”

  29. Steven Fraser says:

    @EM: Personal report: Since I work from home, no change to my daily schedule. The only days of the week affected by COVID-19 are Wednesday (Cancelled Church Choir Rehearsals) and Sunday … online services. We shop when we need to, and I made a mask to go to Home Depot to exchange a Dremel wheel that was erroneously delivered.

    My wife (of 41 years) and I watch the same TV shows, stream movies, eat dinner together every night and have our separate projects. She is a quilter, does embroidery and has been making masks ‘for the greater good’. I am constructing a pipe organ in my garage, and at the moment making the shaped plugs to go in one end of the shallots. I am about 25% through the production run of those, and will then change over to using the Dremel to make shaped openings in the brass shallots.

    It has been great to read your articles about what you discover that is credibly presented, and how seriously this situation should be considered. Keep up the good work! I’ll keep reading.


  30. M Simon says:

    cdquarles says:
    6 April 2020 at 4:16 pm

    Uranium Willie the Heavy Metal Kid

  31. Foyle says:

    evidence for effectiveness of hydroxychloroquine seems to be very weak:

  32. rhoda klapp says:

    There’s a whole lot of orange man bad in that Atlantic article, but not as much info on the therapy as we could read here or see on Dr Seheult’s medcram videos. The article does not mention zinc. It is in fact full of misinformation and misdirection while it calls out POTUS for..what exactly?

  33. rhoda klapp says:

    Oh, and in personal news, I’m taking quercetin, zinc and vits C and D. And hot baths.

    This is the day I was meant to be flying from Charlotte down to Ft Myers to start the Naples part of my vacation. Seems all the rental cars at RSW airport got burned out, so at least I don’t have that to worry about. However, the sun is out in Oxfordshire.

  34. cdquarles says:

    Full blown hyperbaric chambers are not common. Ventilators are quite common in comparison. Hmm, oxygen saturation might not catch this, versus things like carboxyhemoglobin, which use spectrophotometry methods. That article that was on Medium and subsequently scrubbed is interesting. Why it was scrubbed is even more interesting.

  35. cdquarles says:

    Hmm, I wonder what giving someone straight up glutathione would do …?

  36. Gail Combs says:

    HMMmmmm so this makes #3.
    The French

    and now a Czech.

  37. E.M.Smith says:

    This site:

    Has added a new feature. Scroll down to the list of States, tick the toggle to show counties in your State, then click the mini blue graph squiggle next to your county. That gives you a graph of cases AND new cases. You can check out how things are going in your county!

  38. H.R. says:

    Nice find, E.M. – We’re at 77 confirmed and 1 death in my county. Tuesday a week ago we were at 67 confirmed and 1 death.

    Considering how little testing is being done, it’s hard to say how many are infected with the Chinese Virus, AKA Kung Flu.

    My WAG is that infected are perhaps 8-9-10-11-12 times confirmed. Who can really know? I just pick 10 times for ease of calculation, but it could just as well be 100 times, as the 77 were in contact with 3-5 people each who were in contact with another 3-5 people each and so on.

    All it takes is one bagger at the grocery store with WuFlu and just think of all the people taking home bags with products all having some viral load.

    I can’t wait for the antibody test. Yeah, only 77 in my county, but being suburban/rural a lot of people go to the same stores.

    Ground report: Gloves and masks are catching on in my area. In the more rural areas, almost no gloves or masks; rare to see them. In the burbs portion closer to the Big City, gloves and masks are becoming more and more common each time I have been out.

    Using gloves and masks feeds on itself and more and more people who know they should wear them start wearing them when they see more people wearing them. I’m figuring in one to two weeks the bare-nekkid face and hands will be the rarity.

  39. E.M.Smith says:

    Looks like Tractor Supply had a panic attack and pulled all their ivermectin:

    Well, at least it shows a lot of folks will be informed about the research. Even all the millions of farmers and horse owners thwarted in their desire to deworm their critters.

    Really stupid IMHO, as the stuff has nearly no Bad Thing in people and whole countries in River Blindness country have been drenched in it to extirpate that parasite in people.

    But Bureaucracy & Frivolous Law Suits override reason these days.

  40. cdquarles says:

    At least for me, my own state’s department of public health already has a website dashboard for it. It reports deaths with and deaths from, too; as well as total number of hospitalizations. Cases are still tracking testing at about 12%.
    A report today noted that there were nursing homes in 17 counties with known cases. There is one county still with no reported cases. Most have 20 or fewer cases (48/67). Deaths from this virus are about 3 dozen, to date, total; and about 5 dozen total deaths, to date.

  41. Phil Jourdan says:

    @HR – Re: O2 vs Ventilators – seems someone is paying attention. They put Bojo on O2 and not a ventilator.

  42. Gail Combs says:

    Well, we already bought our spring supply of Horse Sheep and goat Dewormer.

    Hubby (physicist) has already done the human dose calculations. Using this:

    Paper from Japan on Ivermectin:


    What is really bad news is if someone decides to use the avermectin called Moxidectin instead.

    Ivermectin is pretty safe. The LD50 for Moxidectin is a LOT closer to the therapeutic dose than I like.

    If you can not put the animal on an actual scale and have to rely on a weight tape, you want to ‘over dose’ since too little of the drug promotes immunity in the parasites. I had one mare that taped at 800 lbs. I got the chance to put her on a tractor scale at a tractor pull and she actually weighed over 1200 lbs. Now that is a heck of a BIG Pony for only standing four & a half foot tall!

  43. H.R. says:

    @Phil – Hey, I like the new avatar. Oh and upper-lower case and separation of your name. Going all per-fessional on us, eh ;o) Looks good.
    That’s great news about Boris. The ventilator would no doubt have killed him.

    So what’s the stat for “Diagnosed with WuFlu but cause of death was the ventilator?”

    When the pandemic bumbling is all over and done with for the season, the lawsuits are really gonna fly.

  44. A C Osborn says:

    EM, why would the CDC want to kill Americans and extend the length of the epidmeic?
    and now

  45. FundMe says:

    So after being down the rabbit hole I have discovered that the proton pump inhibitors will not work..because why? Gut Bacteria. Just about none of the shite works, nothing is going to save you from being old. I am old. I am not trying to score points. Why Gut bactaria? I cant think why, too many? too few? who knows?.

  46. FundMe says:

    In England DNR certs are issued to anyone that doctors believe will not survive invasive therapies. The doctor can issue the DNR against your wish. However they try to get permission from the patient. By law it is not required. When you see the death rate in England you see people that the doctors have issued DNR’s for. A Dnr does not only mean do not ressucitate it can also mean dont interfere. Many people in England sign the DNR because they dont wish to suffer but even so if they dont sign it the doctor will overide them if they choose to. In England the patient is removed from the relative or as some say relation, mother, son, husband do not have any say. We see people as individuals unbound by the wishes of their family. I will come back to this later.

  47. FundMe says:

    In England DNR certs are issued to anyone that doctors believe will not survive invasive therapies. The doctor can issue the DNR against your wish. However they try to get permission from the patient. By law it is not required. When you see the death rate in England you see people that the doctors have issued DNR’s for. A Dnr does not only mean do not ressucitate it can also mean dont interfere. Many people in England sign the DNR because they dont wish to suffer but even so the doctor will overide them if they choose to. In England the patient is removed from the relative or as some say relation mother son husband do not have any say. We see people as individuals unbound by the wishes of their family. I will come back to this later.

  48. FundMe says:

    Case law was set in England by numerous cases regarding parents wishing to take their children outside of the UK for treatment, thereby circumventing having interventions switched off. IE invasive treatment. Who owns the machine, controls the machine

  49. FundMe says:

    BTW none of these cases that require invasive or the removal of invasive treatments have ever succeeded, even in the European court of law. We respect the right to life as much as we respect the right to a peaceful death.

  50. FundMe says:

    Oh bloody hell I was completley off topic…sorry folks…btw I dont own a spell checker

  51. Ossqss says:

    @FM, no static at all ;-)

  52. E.M.Smith says:


    The bureaucratic mind always wants the importance of being “in control”, but never the resposibility for any decision nor ownership of any risk. The inevitable result is a laundry list of prohibitions on anyone else having choice or making decisions, along with a “concensus” rule book (so no individual has any responsibility) stating the only few limited things that can or must be done.

    In this way it arogates to itself importance and authority (and funding) while avoiding as much as possible actually doing anything, and certainly nothing new or with any personal career risk.

    So the CDC isn’t actually trying to kill you. It is just applying the flu Rule Book to this disease as that is the approved concensus for Respiratory Virus; and you can’t get in trouble for that, only “the concensus” can… That you die is just an unfortunate side effect of this disease having not read the guidelines and not following them. The CDC will issue a sharp letter of reprimand to the disease, empanel many specialists from their ranks (paid nice added stipends) to work out the exact wording; and once budgets are increased 25%, apply them to the task of reviewing the Respirstory Virus Procedures book until a “concensus of experts” arises as to revisions, if any.

  53. gallopingcamel says:

    ossqss said:
    “Hmmmmm, this is certainly interesting. https://arxiv.org/abs/2003.12444“.

    That seems to vindicate my approach which requires the patient to absorb vast quantities of Vodka, Gin or scotch.

    My intention was to absorb ethanol in the liquid phase……….it never occurred to me to absorb alcohol as a vapor.

  54. gallopingcamel says:

    On a lighter note it is widely known that COVID-19 has interrupted the supply chain for many vital products such as toilet paper. If Justin Trudeau wants to retaliate for Trump’s crackdown on 3M’s export trade in N95 masks his best weapon would be toilet paper. Canada is to toilet paper as Saudi Arabia is to oil.

  55. gallopingcamel says:

    COVID-19 has disrupted supply chains around the world.
    For example I order Marmite in cartons of 24 “Catering Packs” (600g each) that last me roughly two years. The official shelf life of Marmite is one year but no self respecting microbe would consider such fare so I have not noticed any deterioration in Marmite that is two years over its “best used by date”.

    As luck would have it I was down to my last 600g catering pack when the COVID crackdown arrived so I contacted my UK supplier and got a message that shipments were suspended until the pandemic “Restrictions” ended.

    So I called a bunch of potential suppliers including the normally reliable Tesco (owned by Walmart). Here is what I found:

    When Tesco can’t supply Marmite the collapse of our civilization is imminent.

  56. E.M.Smith says:


    I’ve always enjoyed inhaling the vapors off saki, sniffing heavily over strong Irish Coffee ( or a Texas Trailboss!), and aspirating air through warm rum drinks, mulled wine, etc. Now I know I’d just had a subconscious awareness of the deep medicinal properties!

    Per Marmite:

    Oh, the agony!

    Marmite Squeezy Yeast Extract 400G
    Sorry, this product is currently unavailable

  57. E.M.Smith says:

    Well, the USA just crossed 400,000 cases:

    United States
    Coronavirus Cases: 400,546
    Deaths: 12,857
    Recovered: 21,711

  58. Another Ian says:


    You could convert to Vegemite for the time being?

  59. Foyle says:

    Marmageddon. Proper Marmite isn’t a runny syrup like the inferior product from the UK, it is stiff like margarine and most properly sourced from NZ or Australia.

    Besides which eating 7kg of Marmite a year, 20g a day is insane, that’s enough for 5-10 pieces of toast a day.

  60. rhoda klapp says:

    GC, I used to see Marmite in Krogers in Texas, as I recall. In the exotic food aisle. It is sold in jars each containing a lifetime supply, for me at least.

  61. Another Ian says:

    More questions

    “Wuhan Flu: A Lung Disease Or A Blood Disease?”


  62. Ossqss says:

    Looks like WOM closed case CFR has clicked up to 22% today.

  63. E.M.Smith says:


    At first I attributed the high WOM CFR to early cases not reached EOL yet, but as more time goes on, that is harder to accept. It now requires folks spend a very long time in hospital, then recover; or rampant fresh cases; or a huge undiscovered low or no symptom pool.

    But the longer you are sick, the higher the probability of death. Huge increase in testing shrinks the undidcovered pool. And the global move to lockdown reduces the new cases.

    So something is missing.

    But what?

  64. Gail Combs says:

    So something is missing.

    But what?

    The Truth?

  65. Another Ian says:

    “Flattening The Curve”

    “Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach

    I’ve been following the many changes in the IHME coronavirus model used by our very own most incompetent Dr. Fauci. (In passing, let me note that he’s been wrong about most everything from the start—from first saying it was not a problem, to predicting 200,000 deaths in the US (based on an earlier version of this model), to advising people to NOT wear masks, to opposing chloroquine. But I digress …)

    The IHME model is here, and it’s well worth a look, although not worth too much trust—it’s been wrong too many times. To their credit they’ve put the results online here.”


  66. cdquarles says:

    Part of it is that deaths with are counted as if they are deaths from, apparently even when that isn’t the situation. My state’s site reports deaths with and deaths from. Naturally, deaths from are fewer. Part of that is simple reporting delay. Just because something is recorded on a death certificate does not make that 100% the truth.

  67. cdquarles says:

    Oh yeah, doing that *will* undercount deaths from other causes to extent that deaths with are overcounting deaths from *any* disease, incorrectly. Think classification error where the true prevalence is *not* known and the testing done has relatively poor positive predictive value.

  68. cdquarles says:

    About the IHME models, I sure would like to see if and how a proper error analysis and propagation is done for it; and have the model output those error bounds along with or instead of parameter estimate confidence intervals.

  69. philjourdan says:

    @HR – not sure about the avatar and name I have done nothing different. Guess it is the flu thing as I have been WFH for 3 weeks now.


    #1 – They call medicine a “practice” We are still learning,
    #2 – sadly yes. The vultures are already circling. They are called democrats.

    When all is said and done, this will go down as the first media hysteria pandemic. China knew what it was doing, but I do not think they realize the genie they have unleashed. We will see how many (other than WHO) flock back to them after they infected the world, sold defective equipment, and then sold donated equipment. And threatened to shut off the medical pipeline.

    The democrats will still love them, but I do not think many others will put their nation in their hands again. If this was a planned attack by china (one of those conspiracy theories that the left will poo poo but the facts fit the crime), they blew the execution. But that is the hallmark of socialism

  70. philjourdan says:

    As CD said, if a corona is found in the corpse it is a COVID death.

    The science of the left.

  71. David A Anderson says:

    E.M, about the CFR, we may need to consider it somewhat real, as, with plus 400k new cases in the last week, many new cases which have not had time to mature to serious. This is potentially 80 k more to the serious critical even with zero new cases.

    I sure would like to see some detail on the 82 still sick from the Diamond Princess. Yes, 10 are serious/ critical, but 62, almost 10 percent, still not cured after what, six weeks? 11 are dead now.

    I am equally curious about Sweden. Very poor testing of only high risk symptomatic. Very high CFR. Only about 1/2 the defensive protocols of most, at best. I am actually glad some one is doing this as, while I lean towards favoring the shut down, we can only do it so long before deeper economic harm sits in. Population density of Sweden is recorded as 57.5 people per square mile, whereas New York State is 419.0 people per square mile.
    Population density of New York city is 27,000 per sq mile, while Stolkholm
    is listed at 13,000 per square mile.

    Also, apparently African American blacks have some serious genetic susceptibility to Covid-19. New York City now has the largest Black population of any city in the United States with 3.4 Million African Americans living in its city limits.
    Stockholm, about 1.6 million people, has very few Black people. ( Difficult to find the percentage) So this may also be a factor.

    I guess time will tell.

  72. A C Osborn says:

    David, I think population density is the key to the speed it spreads, Sweden have a major advantage in that respect.
    But it is not helping them much now. Since the 29th March the US cases increased by 3.5 times
    Italy by 1.5 times
    Spain by 1.9 times
    Germany by 1.9
    France by 3.0
    UK by 3.1
    Sweden by 3.1
    Czechia where they wear face masks by 2.2
    The US, UK & France are still on the upward part of the curve, only Italy , Spain & Germany appear to be over the peak.
    ps Singapore still doing the best, but even they had new cases yesterday.

  73. A C Osborn says:

    philjourdan says: 9 April 2020 at 2:18 am
    “As CD said, if a corona is found in the corpse it is a COVID death.”

    Phil, if a person has a heart defect and it is under control and they get COVID19.
    They get taken to hospital because of serious COVID symptoms and the physical stress of COVID19 causes heart failure, which killed them, the virus or heart failure?
    If you have COVID19 and it causes pneumonia which kills you, was it COVID or pneumonia?
    The analogy is jumping off a 40 storey building, it is not the jump or the trip down that kills you it is hitting the ground. So did the jumper die of massive injuries, or jumping off the roof?
    Cause & effect have to be considered, ie if the person with heart trouble in the first example had COVID without any symptoms and died then obviously they died of just heart failure, but they would have been taken to hospital with heart trouble and not COVID.

  74. Another Ian says:

    “Delingpole: ‘Trust the Experts on Coronavirus’. Sure. Which Experts? ”


    “Well maybe they will, maybe they won’t. No offence to the University of Washington but when I read the phrase “modelling by researchers” I know we are operating in the realms of purest fantasy.

    That’s because I’m a climate sceptic and I’ve seen it all before.

    The fact that computer models are unreliable — often based on the junkiest of junk data inputs; programmed with the shonkiest and most politically motivated algorithms, put together by people you wouldn’t trust to run a bath let alone dictate government policy — is the single most important thing you need to know about the entire global warming/climate change scam. This was the basis of the 2009 Climategate scandal: that the scientists were pushing a radical, disruptive, economically damaging agenda without any solid supporting evidence.”

    “Typical of this problem is Dr Anthony Fauci, the medic largely informing President Trump’s lockdown policy.”

  75. jim2 says:

    We don’t need no stinkin’ models!! Which flu season in the last 20 years made us run out of medical supplies? Zero, nada, none! Even a man blind in one eye and can’t see out of the other can see this is much worse than usual!. It well could have been worse on the economy to let the virus run free.

    At this point, anyone who can work from home should be required to work from home. The rest will need to get back to work ASAP, wearing masks and gloves if those can be found. I guess cotton gloves that can be disinfected and/or washed would be better than nothing. ASAP may be a week or two from now, don’t know.

  76. jim2 says:

    In the meantime, the YSM spend much of their time spreading FUD about hydroxychloroquine. This because Trump recommends it. They are 24/7 doing anything they can think of to bring down our President. They need to be shipped off to China ASAP.

  77. David A says:

    AC, agreed about most cases of cause of death. I have moderate high blood pressure. So if I get Covid-19 and die, it is the Covid-19 , not the high blood pressure.

    One other thing about Sweden, the since Marc 29th 3.1 times increase is likely very low, as that is about when they started testing ONLY those with compounding condition high risk patients, and symptomatic. So they are likely missing 3 to 4 times the patients of many other nations.

  78. cdquarles says:

    Well, in your scenario, it depends. Your patient could have died from a drug interaction or had another iatrogenic condition that had nothing to do with either Covid-19 or the heart’s developmental anomaly. I’d code it cardiopulmonary arrest due to heart failure and only add Covid-19 as a secondary cause if there is enough evidence to make that true. Otherwise, I wouldn’t do it. Why? To list Covid-19 as a cause when it wasn’t shown to be a cause is just plain wrong. Again, death with a disease is not the same thing as death from a disease. The more co-morbidities present makes that determination that much more difficult. To assign all of the cause to one thing in that situation is just a guess, and, again depending on the situation, an incorrect one.

    In the case of a direct Covid-19 pneumonia, that one is relatively easy. In the case of a secondary bacterial pneumonia, it is less easy. An autopsy can help provide the information necessary; yet, again, autopsies can miss things. To just call any and all deaths with as equivalent to deaths from is just wrong. You will overcount covid-19 and undercount others.

  79. Bill In Oz says:

    This discussion about ’cause’ is I think a bit beside the point.
    I was listening to a report about the situation in a town in Italy.
    Supposedly ‘X’ number of people had died from COVID 19 disease in the local hospitals in the past month.
    But then some body thought to ask around the undertakers in the town how many funerals they had done this past month compared with this time last year. The total was over 200. But last year in the same period it was just 20 !

    And NONE of those extra deaths were listed as COVID 19 disease as they happened at home.

  80. p.g.sharrow says:

    @Bill, that is the most definitive piece of evidence I’ve seen. An other is the report that 21million cell phone accounts have gone dead in China.
    This reporting of Covid 19 illness and deaths is such a rubber set of measurements as to be nearly worthless.
    The sudden onset of lung failure and the successful treatments of it is the only thing that matters, all the rest of it is just confusing fog that prevents intelligent solutions…pg

  81. A C Osborn says:

    pg, not just lung failure, heart failure, kidney failure, sepsis.
    This virus attacks any weakness it can find and creates quite a few of it’s own.

  82. p.g.sharrow says:

    @ACO, the organ failure seems to be the result of over aggressive immune response to an infection storm. As some one that has Asthma /Hayfever . the cytokine storm released can cause rapid organ damage and failure due to oxygen starvation…pg

  83. E.M.Smith says:

    There have even been cases with brain involvement (loss of speach, confusion) and some showing necrotic patches on the brain. Also the ACE2 rich testicles leading to sterility… Once this escapes the lungs into the blood, any tissue has issues…

    This is NOT the flu.

    (Though the flu can have rare brain involvement).

  84. cdquarles says:

    Remember, an overactive immune system, by itself, can cause whole body organ failure; via either diffuse intravascular coagulation and/or apoptosis, aka programmed cell death. That’s how we grow from a single fertilized egg cell into a multicellular, multiple organ system individual. The body carries within it the seeds of its own destruction.

  85. Another Ian says:

    From this morning’s email:-

    “Stop worrying about the world ending today. It’s already tomorrow in Australia.-“

  86. H.R. says:

    Something that just struck me today, as I was contemplating all the potential cures and preventatives that would allow us to get back to work, is that it appears the successful ones seem to be the ones that are used to treat bloodborne bugs such as malaria and parasites.

    So far, the traditional triple rubberstamped approved peer reviewed FLU treatments are crap and appear to me to be doing more harm than good*. The old stuff we’ve had around for years used to kill non-flu bugs are working.

    In what’s left of my little brain, this is telling me that it’s not the flu, even though it happens to look just like one under the microscope, so to speak. And yeah, it also spreads like a viral flu, but once you have it then it attacks like a number of other old-time non-flu diseases and illnesses and bugs which have long had cures.

    I’m wondering if there will be any actual success finding a ‘Flu Vaccine’? Maybe we should be looking at a seasonal ivermectin bubble bath instead.

    *When what you are doing isn’t working, stop doing it and try something else.

  87. Timster says:

    @Another Ian
    Yup, you’re correct, it’s definitely Good Friday here right now.
    At least one more day for you :-)

  88. Timster says:

    Long time reader, and following the COVID threads with a lot of interest. Thanks to you and everyone else for the all the great commentary and information.

    I see up the page a bit that you’re an economist. I assume that you are putting a lot of thought into the current efforts of worldwide governments WRT to the amount of money they are spending printing. Have you put your thoughts about this anywhere for reading?

  89. Another Ian says:


    I’m in the test case mob

  90. Another Ian says:
  91. H.R. says:

    @gallopingcamel – Yesterday, I scored a small jar of marmite, 125 grams, I think.

    It was on the clearance shelf. Your posts were fresh in my mind and I have never tried Marmite, so I snagged a jar.

    BTW, the regular price of that small jar was $7.69. I got it for $2.00. I vaguely recall seeing it before, and it has been discussed here before, but knowing cheap ol’ me, I probably passed on trying it at that price.

    But, hey! At $2.00, I just have to see what all the fuss is about.

    I didn’t really catch anything above, but what’s the best usage of it? Spread it on toast? Crackers? As a savory add-on like chutney? A teaspoon of it followed by two fingers of single malt? Baked in a small puff pastry like we do bear claws here? Use it to hold my Beluga Caviar together?

    As you can tell, I’m clueless. What’s best, so I don’t ruin the experience through inexperience?

  92. Another Ian says:

    I use a teaspoon of Vegemite (similar yeast extract but beware the wars as to which product is best here) with water for the early am “can’t get to sleeps”.
    Plus on sandwiches and toast and in things like stews and gravy.


  93. philjourdan says:

    ACOsbourne – Your philosophical discussions are fine but irrelevant. I was not giving an opinion, I was giving a fact. Birx has stated as much, If you have a heart attack but an autopsy finds some cancer cells, does that mean cancer killed you? Of course not. But if you die of a heart attack and they find some corona , then you died from Corona. Fact. As stated by Dr. Birx

    And that is why death by heart disease and other factors are way down now. Because it does not matter what killed you, if you test positive for Corona, you died from it. And that is a fact as stated by Dr, Birx.

  94. H.R. says:

    Thanks for the input for my Marmite, Another Ian. I wanted some input from the users here before I went online to search for ideas.

    You mentioned stews. I’m getting ready to make a Shepherd’s Pie. That might add a nice base note, or maybe a bass note, depending on how it influences the flavour.*

    At least now I’m not expecting a large response from people who use it on ice cream ;o)

    *Just getting in the proper frame of mind ;o)

  95. Compu Gator says:

    Another Ian [said] 9 April 2020 at 9:29 am [GMT]:
    The fact that computer models are unreliable–often based on the junkiest of junk data inputs; [….]

    Indeed! Computer models unavoidably incorporate the assumptions, beliefs, rationalizations, and preconceived outcomes of their creators and devoted followers.

    Another Ian [said] 9 April 2020 at 9:29 am [GMT]:
    […] programmed with the shonkiest and most politically motivated algorithms, put together by people you wouldn’t trust to run a bath let alone dictate government policy — is the single most important thing you need to know about the entire global warming/climate change scam.

    A more compelling question during the present pandemic: Would you want such people to have any involvement in the programming of any medical instruments [#] on which you suddenly need to depend in an Emergency Dept. to save your life? Hey-yell nooo!

    Note #: Upscale digital patient monitors, as in I.C.U.s and coronary units, which display real-time (graphic) ‘traces’[†] of vital signs, and provide variable alarm settings, are nowadays controlled by user interfaces featuring touch-screens and drop-down menus, using iconography that’s not all that different from what can be seen on personal computers. In recent years, I’ve had more opportunities to, um, observe those monitors in use than I’d like.

    Note †: A ‘trace’ is the continuously displayed graphic representation of a time-varying electrical signal (as amplitude vs. time) on analog oscilloscopes.

  96. E.M.Smith says:


    I’ve bern thinking about it, but not written anything up yet.

    Basically, in “the old days” shit happened and YOU needed to have prepared for a rainy day, or suck it up and find a way / suffer through.

    About the 60s to 70s, folks started to just use credit cards to get through an AwShit. Then they started carrying way too much debt, including stupid mountains of student loans, so don’t have the headroom on cards.

    Now we are basically just floating everyone on the National Credit Card… until it eventually fills up…

    On one hand, there is a case for “Government caused the shutdown. Bypass liability claims and have them just pay.”. OTOH: Sovereign Immunity exists for the case where an AwShit happened and Government must fix it, consequences be damned, and sorting out claims is worse than it is worth. And since mostly it is just moving money from taxpayers pockets to other taxpayers pockets, it is either pointless or a back door welfare program when we already have welfare rules and programs..

    My biggest issue is the $ Millions that will wander to the pockets of Friends Of Politicians.

  97. Simon Derricutt says:

    H.R. – a note on Marmite: spread it very thinly on buttered toast or bread until you’ve worked out how much of it you like. My first wife’s first experience of Marmite was when she’d spread it like it was marmalade, and her face showed the surprise. It seems with Marmite (or Vegemite) you either love it or hate it, and once she got the thickness right she did indeed love it, but some people can’t stand it. You can also use a teaspoonful in a cup of boiling water to make a nice drink, or use that as a stock in a soup, but the flavour can overwhelm other ingredients if you add too much. Somewhat off-topic for the HCQ string, though.

    A seasonal Ivermectin bath could well be a good thing to do. Thinking about sheep-dips, it seems you’d end up with a bathfull of the stuff left over at the end after all the sheep had gone through. Might be a better idea to just spray some on, since it is absorbed through the skin. Might also stop the perennial problem of schoolkids and headlice…. Funny thing is that when the kids were going through school and had that problem, I never did. Not sure whether that’s because they didn’t like my blood (one taste and they move somewhere else better) or because I smoke tobacco. These days, of course, there’s far less hair for them to inhabit, anyway.

  98. H.R. says:

    @Simon Derricutt
    1) Re Marmite: Like the two boys caught fighting on the playground by the teacher, But, E.M.! E.M.! gallopingcamel started it!

    Yeah, I knew it was OT and responded anyhow just because of the remarkable coincidence of finding some Marmite, but I’m figuring on only a small number of responses from the English Speaking Chapter of the E.M. Smith Blog & Potbelly Stove Discussion Society.

    I’ll give a blanket “Thanks in advance” for any additional input that shows up. I’d expect maybe 1 or 2 more responses. The TIA is the end of the topic here for me.
    b) I brought that “like sheep dip” advice because of the amusing imagery of an entire nation hopping in tubs of sheep dip to prevent Wuhan Flu. It’s bit of humor added to what looks like a very promising solution to a very serious problem. Right now it’s arguably 50/50 whether the damage to a country’s economy is worth the price of the shutdown cure.

    We are now finding highly promising simple, cheap, preventives and cures for this terrible flu-virus-which-isn’t-a-flu-virus. We should be able to safely lift confinements with little to no negative public health outcomes and get back to work with normal freedoms. And I’m talking really soon, not the real soon, now being pushed by the YSM, CDC, Dems, and Marxists (excuse the redundancy).

    Can’t have that because the TLAs, like the CDC, WHO, FDA, NHS, and on and on become irrelevant and would have no reason to have their budgets increased so they could put more bureaucrats working harder and harder on what is usually, inevitably the wrong one-size-fits-all government solution.

  99. rhoda klapp says:

    You have a jar of marmite? Throw it at those herons. Don’t take it out of the jar. It isn’t good for anything else.

    Here in the UK, marmite is not only a yeast extract, it is a word in the language used to depict something that you can only love or hate, no in-between. I’m a hater, by the way.

  100. r says:

    Oh, Shepherd’s pie. That’s the one with mutton or lamb, the beef version is Cottage pie. I found US versions to be cooked with the vegetables inside. That’s not what we do in our house, serve the peas and carrots on the side, the only veg in it should be the mashed potatoes. Here, it doesn’t hurt to add chili or paprika, but that is not the purist’s way.

  101. rhoda klapp says:

    Innocent comment just now went to moderation. It contains important info about shepherd’s pie.

  102. Simon Derricutt says:

    H.R. – still OT, but the official Marmite available today isn’t the same as that I had as a kid. It’s a somewhat lighter brown and has less impact. My brother gave me some generic “yeast extract” from ASDA supermarket that was almost-black and tasted like the original from my youth. Still, mainly an English thing (i.e. not Scottish, Welsh, or Irish) and going to be expensive in the USA, except when you find it remaindered. If you brew beer, though, you can make your own from the yeast left over. May I suggest Miso as something to try as well, if you like Marmite? Much the same set of uses in adding flavour and nutrition to otherwise-bland food. Japanese product made from fermented soya-beans and grain.

    On the sheep-dip idea, I figure that the farmers dipping their animals will get a fair dose of the stuff, and obviously no significant side effects except for not getting parasites. Should be a no-brainer to allow the use of Ivermectin rather than removing it from the market.

    For HCQ (+ Zinc supplement), since the effect is to stop the replication of the virus, it’s pretty obvious that clinical trials based on giving it when the patient is severely ill probably won’t show any useful effect. It seems such trials are being set up to fail, where using HCQ+Zinc as a prophylactic would actually have a major effect on transmission and stop many people getting ill in the first place. I’m not following the official logic here, obviously. For people who have symptoms, maybe it also stops progression to needing the ICU treatment, but then the start-point (unknown or uncontrolled viral load in the patient) is not determined and the results of the trial may be indeterminate. If Ivermectin works the same way in blocking replication, again it would need to be used early on and may not help much once the patient is really ill.

    It seems the official strategy is to stop transmission where possible (lock-down) and to aid people to recover in ICU if they get ill-enough. Also looking for a vaccine, which doesn’t look that hopeful given the mutability of the RNA in a Corona virus. Just seems to me to be better to confer temporary immunity (either Ivermectin or HCQ) for long enough to kill the virus, and then you can go back to normal except for requiring visitors/travellers to either take the prophylactic or go through a quarantine of sufficient time. Turn back people who refuse.

    Just seems to me that the medicines are already there, and tested, and just need to be available in enough quantity and to be distributed widely, and the lock-down could be lifted just as soon as that’s implemented (no need to wait more than a few days after distribution, since people would take them). But then, I’m an engineer, not a politician or medic.

  103. jim2 says:

    Just about the entirety of India uses chemoprophylaxyis for malaria. Using current JH numbers, they have 0.005 per cent of population of CV cases. We in the US have 0.14 per cent of population of cases. Not to mention the over-crowded conditions in the big cities there. Fauci should have been fired long ago.


  104. H.R. says:

    I like miso and I understand that flavor. And Rhoda has another good suggestion for the Marmite, whether an empty or full jar. It’s perfectly shaped for a nice curveball into a heron’s noggin. Thanks, Rhoda!
    @Simon – It would be interesting to know if any farmers/ranchers with livestock have come down with the Wuhan Flu. I’m also picking up on the actions of the CDC that strongly indicate they are sticking out a leg in an attempt to trip up any of the cheap and readily available treatments and preventatives which have been used safely for years.

    The CDC is pushing for a vaccine, not answers, because that keeps them in control. They are the national clearing house for vaccines, their purchase and distribution. As I understand it – could be wrong as it is internet info – Fauci and Birx are on the boards of some pharma companies and foundations that will be the multi-multi-billion dollar big winners if their vaccine is selected. That conflict of interest is totally unacceptable if true and should be illegal with life in prison or hanging as the penalty. I’m not kidding, millions of peoples’ lives are on the line.

    The path mentioned that I favor, and early indications are that it is the correct path, puts the power in the hands of doctors and their patients. Can’t have that now, can we?

    Also, the Abbot Labs test would allow us to quickly get a better handle on the spread of this virus and the effective of these novel approaches to treatment and prevention. Lot’s of testing will fill in lots of missing information. But I’m hearing that some locations that have the Abbot machines still aren’t using them at all or rarely. Why they are not using them is just speculation on my part, but my bet would be that the makers of other tests are pressuring (i.e. paying) hospitals/doctors to buy and use their tests, none of which come close to the low cost, speed, and effectiveness of the Abbot Labs machine.

    We now have WuFlu survivors who have been there and done that, are perfectly safe now, and potentially very helpful if they give some of their blood so that others can use the antibodies.

    Without mass testing we’ll not know the extent of the recovered population. Granted, this Abbot Labs machine for rapid tests is just a week old +/-, but we should be whipping that horse hard to get the needed info fast. Again, I don’t see the CDC supporting this because it would only hasten the day where we’d discover they, or a vaccine are too little, too late and not needed anyhow. Can’t have that, either.

  105. ossqss says:

    So, this virus we fight is a derivative of the common cold, correct?

    Where is the common cold vaccine? Just sayin,

  106. jim2 says:

    Fauci also mentioned remdesivir. It seems he and others on the team lean towards high tech, expensive solutions. It’s too bad Trump would suffer a lot if he fired Fauci. Polls indicate about 80% believe Fauci is doing a good job vs about 50% for Trump.

  107. David A says:

    ossqss, as far as I know Sweden is ONLY testing symptomatic high risk patients. There testing is very very limited. 8 days ago it was 36,900. Now it is about 54,000 last I looked.

  108. H.R. says:

    Between their use of anti-malarial drugs and the 21-day lockdown AND the fact that it an incredibly densely packed population with *ahem* less than ideal sanitation infrastructure, we should know in 21 days how effective HCQ +zinc, is against the Chinese virus. I trust that they will add in the zinc. Indians are not stupid and have probably noted that they need to add in some zinc and the Zpaks.

    That would put us out to the end of April. I expect good results, perhaps not 100% glowing due to availability and distribution problems with the meds.

    No reason not to turn the key on the ignition of our economic engine in 21 days if the results from India are good.
    Hmmm… another comment of mine has hit the bin. I don’t think it was the moderation queue because I didn’t notice an “awaiting moderation” message. Might have gone straight to spam.

  109. cdquarles says:

    No, not exactly. We need to be more tidy about the classifications here. Colds are *rhinoviruses*. Other viruses cause cold-like illnesses. There are no vaccines for colds because: 1. hundreds of rhinovirus strains and 2. the illness is about as mild as an illness can get. And it is the number 2 that matters here.

    Contrast that with influenza, if you will. There are only a few influenza viruses. Sure, they are RNA, lipid enveloped viruses and are zoonotic. So even though they mutate rapidly, there are still enough commonalities that you can make vaccines and the influenza viruses can and do cause severe illnesses, either directly or via secondary infections, such as bacterial pneumonia. What you are attempting with the influenza vaccine is minimize the fraction of severe illnesses and secondary infections. *They don’t have to be anywhere near 100% to be good enough for that!*

    There are also influenza like illnesses from other kinds of viruses. There are several virus families that do this, just like there are several virus families that cause cold like illnesses. Sometimes the families overlap.

  110. YMMV says:

    Simon Derricutt: “Just seems to me to be better to confer temporary immunity (either Ivermectin or HCQ) for long enough to kill the virus, and then you can go back to normal except for requiring visitors/travellers to either take the prophylactic or go through a quarantine of sufficient time. Turn back people who refuse.”

    That’s it! Build up green zones, and anybody coming into them has to get a dash of Ivermectin.

    Ivermectin gets a big thumbs up here:
    “Coronavirus Pandemic Update 52: Ivermectin Treatment; Does COVID-19 Attack Hemoglobin?”

  111. ossqss says:

    Great write up llanfar, it certainly explains my questioning without answers the use of ventilators in such environments, and also explains the high mortality rate associated with implementation of the process with Covid victims. I had not read about or viewed anyone with this virus who was unable to breath on their own and needing to be intubated for that reason. It didn’t make sense, but this explanation certainly does.

  112. Power Grab says:

    Back in the days of Mad Cow Disease in the UK, I followed the research of Mark Purdey. We even got into a chat-like session (before there really was chat) where I asked him some questions. One thing he volunteered, after I told him my then-husband was using colloidal silver as a disinfectant, was to avoid putting it into your nose because there isn’t much between the sinuses and the brain, and silver in the wrong places is harmful.

    He has passed on, but his brother Nigel gathered his writings into a book:

    I have read some of Mark’s journal articles, and I have his book.

    He also was successful in taking his case to the High Court and winning the right to *not* put the prescribed organophosphate on his cattle. Mark’s operation was organic. The only cow of his that got sick was one he bought from another farm.

    Long story short, the most salient points I retained were that Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy, or BSE (the formal name for Mad Cow Disease), vCJD (the human form), and other similar diseases that can afflict deer and other species have similar etiologies.

    Simplified, it involves excesses of some metals, the lack of other metals (an imbalance, in other words), the presence of organophosphate pesticides, and an environmental “insult” that triggers physical holes to form in the brain.

    Most of us are familiar with the discovery that excess aluminum in the brain is associated with the formation of prions and holes in the brain. Well, according to Purdey’s research (he had articles published in peer-reviewed journals), the organophosphate pesticide that ranchers and dairy farmers were mandated by the UK government to use (in double doses) on the spine of their cattle made it possible for manganese to cross the blood-brain barrier and accumulate in the brain. IIRC, it was the warble fly they were trying to eradicate.

    The first sign that a cow (or deer, or what-have-you) was suffering from this malady was what they sometimes present with that they call “the staggers”. They can’t walk and eventually collapse.

    So I would be extremely cautious about using Ivermectin on myself, especially if I were in the habit of taking the officially-sanctioned flu shot every year. IMHO, the aluminum and mercury in the vaccines are the most long-lasting cause of disease that can result. Something I read recently said the actual disease that results depends on where the metals settle in the body. I’m not sure chelation is a good solution to get rid of the metals.

    I know that at one time my dad got his mother to go in for chelation therapy. I hear that she bolted after one treatment. There was no way she was going to allow them to continue. I guess the cure is worse than the disease.

    I read something very recently that said that there is an antidote to organophosphate poisoning, if you recognize it and apply it in time. Offhand, I don’t remember where I saw, but I think I can find it without too much trouble.

    A little off-topic, but I read several items and saw a short video this morning on Twitter that said that when they tested Bill Gates’ new vaccine on children in Senegal, seven babies promptly died. I think the people attacked and arrested the ones doing the vaccinating.

  113. Ossqss says:

    I have not directly viewed the modeling, but believe this to be somewhat accurate from just reporting on past from news outlets and briefings. Parallels most of the modeling we see in many other vectors. Models, for the most part, are just the creators opinion in the end.


  114. E.M.Smith says:


    That “not a cold” link is a keeper!


    My backup bottle of ivermectin arrived today. Tracktor Cupply may have panicked and gone all Marxist rule based, but online was willing to supply. 8-)

    I can now cover 20 doses, if ever needed. Or the dogs will be worm free in perpetuity…


    No metals in ivermectin drench. The drench just soaks into the skin. I’ve used it before, for some duration. (I had a mystery illness that M.D.s could not fix lasting years.. Now gone. IMHO ivermectin was part of the cure). I had Zero side effects from a weekly “sheep dose” for a couple of months. Yes, it was an act of desperation after years of trying the regular process. I am very glad I did it with the only regret being how long I put it off.

  115. A C Osborn says:

    On the 29th of March India was not even in the top 50 of countries with cases.

  116. E.M.Smith says:

    USA crosses 1/2 Million:

    World	1,695,713	+92,019	102,566	+6,873	375,958	1,217,189	49,833	218	13.2		
    USA	500,880	+32,314	18,637	+1,946	27,239	455,004	10,916	1,513	56	2,532,931	7,652
    Spain	158,273	+5,051	16,081	+634	55,668	86,524	7,371	3,385	344	355,000	7,593
    Italy	147,577	+3,951	18,849	+570	30,455	98,273	3,497	2,441	312	906,864	14,999
    France	124,869	+7,120	13,197	+987	24,932	86,740	7,004	1,913	202	333,807	5,114
    Germany	122,171	+3,936	2,767	+160	53,913	65,491	4,895	1,458	33	1,317,887	15,730
    China	81,907		3,336		77,455	1,116	144	57	2		
    UK	73,758	+8,681	8,958	+980	344	64,456	1,559	1,086	132	316,836	4,667
    Iran	68,192	+1,972	4,232	+122	35,465	28,495	3,969	812	50	242,568	2,888
    Turkey	47,029	+4,747	1,006	+98	2,423	43,600	1,667	558	12	307,210	3,643
    Belgium	26,667	+1,684	3,019	+496	5,568	18,080	1,278	2,301	260	84,248	7,269
    Switzer	24,551	+500	1,002	+54	11,100	12,449	386	2,837	116	178,500	20,625
    Netherl	23,097	+1,335	2,511	+115	250	20,336	1,424	1,348	147	101,534	5,926
    Canada	22,108	+1,343	556	+47	5,871	15,681	557	586	15	370,315	9,812
    Brazil	19,638	+1,493	1,057	+103	173	18,408	296	92	5	62,985	296
    Portugl	15,472	+1,516	435	+26	233	14,804	226	1,517	43	140,863	13,815
    Austria	13,555	+311	319	+24	6,064	7,172	261	1,505	35	134,743	14,961
    Russia	11,917	+1,786	94	+18	795	11,028	8	82	0.6	1,090,000	7,469
    S.Korea	10,450	+27	208	+4	7,117	3,125	55	204	4	503,051	9,812
    Israel	10,408	+440	95	+9	1,183	9,130	124	1,202	11	117,339	13,557
    Sweden	9,685	+544	870	+77	381	8,434	749	959	86	54,700	5,416
    Ireland	8,089	+1,515	287	+24	25	7,777	194	1,638	58	53,000	10,734
    India	7,598	+873	246	+19	774	6,578		6	0.2	189,111	137
    Ecuador	7,161	+2,196	297	+25	368	6,496	171	406	17	21,568	1,222
    Chile	6,501	+529	65	+8	1,571	4,865	70	340	3	72,797	3,808
    Norway	6,314	+95	113	+5	32	6,169	70	1,165	21	123,170	22,720
    Austrla	6,203	+51	53	+2	3,141	3,009	74	243	2	338,346	13,269
    Poland	5,955	+380	181	+7	318	5,456	160	157	5	118,295	3,126
    Peru	5,897	+641	169	+31	1,569	4,159	130	179	5	56,681	1,719
    Denmark	5,819	+184	247	+10	1,773	3,799	113	1,005	43	64,731	11,176
    Czechia	5,674	+105	119	+7	346	5,209	98	530	11	114,854	10,725
    Japan	5,530	+183	99		685	4,746	109	44	0.8	64,387	509
    Romania	5,467	+265	270	+22	729	4,468	183	284	14	55,430	2,881
    Pakista	4,695	+206	66	+1	727	3,902	45	21	0.3	54,706	248
    Malaysa	4,346	+118	70	+3	1,830	2,446	69	134	2	69,675	2,153
    Philipp	4,195	+119	221	+18	140	3,834	1	38	2	24,500	224
    Saudi	3,651	+364	47	+3	685	2,919	57	105	1	115,585	3,320
    Indones	3,512	+219	306	+26	282	2,924		13	1	17,679	65
    Mexico	3,441	+260	194	+20	633	2,614	89	27	2	31,492	244
    UAE	3,360	+370	16	+2	418	2,926	1	340	2	593,095	59,967
  117. Timster says:

    Thanks. It will be interesting read should you do so.

  118. ossqss says:

    I couldn’t stop my mouse :-)

  119. jim2 says:

    This has to be one of the biggest straw man arguments I’ve seen. I don’t know about other countries, but I’m pretty sure the Donald wouldn’t ever agree to shut down the USA for 2 years. These people run rampant with their speculation unchecked by reality. For the USA at least, they have no clue what Trump will eventually do, but he is obviously wanting to get the economy back on track ASAP. Hopefully, this will include a mandate that anyone who can work from home do so and to use home made or otherwise PPE. We need to get to a point where there is a sure fire med that will stop the disease and we have plenty of it because obviously there will be more infections as more people intermingle. But the point is, we can get as many people as possible back to work as safely as practical. There will be more deaths no matter what. I just don’t have patience for this sort of useless speculation.

    “The much vaunted Imperial College study, says that the lockdown has to last for two years to work. That would kill more people than The Green New Deal as if it was managed by Rachel Carson.”


  120. E.M.Smith says:

    Given recent measurement of the % asymptomatic, and the complete lack of control in most countries, this will end either via drugs that already exist, or herd immunity as the exponential growth wins.

  121. E.M.Smith says:

    So USA went from about 220k to 500k in about 8 days. So we cut doubling time in half, but still doubling.

    1 million April 18
    2 April 24
    4 May 2
    8 May 10
    16 May 18
    32 May 26
    64 June 3
    128 June 11
    256 or roughly total herd immunity. June 19.

    So looks to me like we’re on track to be completely done mid June even with lock downs and all.

    One hopes that inside a couple of weeks they have an approved drug regimen for treatment and prophylaxis. And the infected / recovered can start going back to work.

  122. Ossqss says:

    This one is a bit different than the other drugs in how it fools the virus. A bit of good news either way.


  123. A C Osborn says:

    Treating the Synptoms by the look of it. It is not just a lung desease, it is also a blood/oxygen desease.

    Which is why the ventilators are nor working very well.

  124. gallopingcamel says:

    H.R. said:
    “@gallopingcamel – Yesterday, I scored a small jar of marmite, 125 grams, I think. It was on the clearance shelf. Your posts were fresh in my mind and I have never tried Marmite, so I snagged a jar. BTW, the regular price of that small jar was $7.69. I got it for $2.00.”

    Wow! That is a bargain. I cut down my order to 2 X 600 gram packs = 1,200 grams hoping it might speed things up. It cost me $39.77 or roughly $33 per kilo. You bought a smaller package for $16 per kilo. My order shipped today but the delivery is listed as April 27 to May 12.

    I eat Marmite on hot toast with a thin layer of butter applied. After the butter melts in a thin layer of Marmite is applied on top. If the Marmite leaks through holes in the toast you have used too much.

    It is also good with toasted English muffins (would anyone eat them un-toasted?) but it is harder to spread the Marmite evenly.

    IMHO the best way to consume Marmite is on a toasted and buttered “Crumpet” but where can you get those in the USA? Almost as rare as a kipper or Ulster bacon.

  125. H.R. says:

    @gallopingcamel – I scored another jar for $2.00 yesterday. It seems no-one around these parts knows what the heck it is or what to do with it. I didn’t until just the last few posts. And it seems no Brit has stumbled onto them, or at none of those in the “Love it” column. Perhaps a “Hate it” or two passed on them. Can’t prove a negative.

    So it’s not even making it off the clearance shelf at $2.00, clearly an insanely low price.

    I’ve scored jar #1 and jar #2 of the half-dozen put on the clearance shelf. I’ll probably wind up with them all. Maybe I can swap them for toilet paper ;o)

  126. gallopingcamel says:

    I am ready to clear the shelves at that amazing price. Please feel free to contact me at [Redacted] or by phone at [Redacted].

    I only have six rolls of toilet paper left but you are welcome to them all. Back in WWII we used to cut up newspaper for use in the ‘loo. I have not bought a newspaper in 10 years but maybe I will start again. I won’t read them but it seems oddly appropriate to use them to wipe my rear end.

  127. H.R. says:

    @gallopingcamel – I’ll check for any left tomorrow and snag any that are left. Cross your fingers that no Marmite lust-crazed Brit has made it to that shelf in the past day or so. I’ll snag what’s left, if any, and email you to make delivery arrangements. I really don’t do phones well.

    There were 4 jars left at the back of the shelf when I bought jar #2. Wish me luck.

    I’ll be more than happy to drop $8 bucks on a long-time fellow denizen of the Chiefio blog. It would be money well spent for the many informative posts you’ve contributed over the years so consider it Marmite well deserved by you.

    I’ll just take the money out of my Wine, Women, and Song budget, and since I’ve given up singing, I won’t even notice the slight dip as the remaining line items will remain fully funded ;o)

    I was kidding about the toilet paper. I was making a subtle joke about the absurdity of the TP hoarding.

    I’m still mystified as to the why of all the toilet paper hoarding when it wasn’t even “that kind” of flu. No one I ask about it seems to know why. Everyone knows when it started. My best guess is that it’s like the phenomenon in James Thurber’s The Day The Dam Broke.

    Some poor sap out there is worried sick about roof leaks in his garage full of toilet paper.

    Here’s a link to a discussion of that short story by Thurber, and at the bottom is a copy of the story itself, if anyone wants to skip to it. It’s about a 5-7 minute read, if that.


  128. Power Grab says:

    @ EM:

    Not to belabor a point, but the metals don’t come in the Ivermectin. The metal imbalance is caused by things encountered in the environment. IIRC the manganese Purdey talked about likely came from the Chernobyl incident.

    Well, now that my office is officially closed for the rest of the month, and the mayor announced that everyone should wear at least some kind of cloth mask if they go into a shop or business, etc., maybe I will finally have time to review Purdey’s book.

    I saw a picture of an announcement (it was a copy of a flyer) on Twitter yesterday that said the following:

    “Homeland security is preparing to mobilize the national guard

    “Preparing to dispatch them across the US along with military.
    they will also call in 1st responders.

    “They are preparing to announce a nationwide 2 week quarantine for all citizens,
    All businesses closed.

    “Everyone at home.

    “They will announce this as soon as they have troops in place to help prevent looters and rioters…

    “they will announce before the end of the weekend.

    “within 48 to 72 Hours the president will evoke what is called the ‘Stafford Act’

    “The president will order a two week mandatory quarantine for the nation.

    “Stock up on whatever you need to make sure you have a two week supply of everything.

    “Please forward to your family/friends.”

    Considering the typos, I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s a hoax, but…well…I spent 3 hours in the stores today stocking up beyond what I already had accumulated. :-/

    For the first time, the three grocery stores I visited had entrances and exits that were labeled and enforced. One store actually has only one set of glass double doors that automatically open and close as you approach them. There was a bit of barrier stuff in place so you couldn’t stray from the appointed paths through the one set of doors. Heh. I’m just glad there wasn’t a guard. ;-)

    I was able to find just about everything I wanted, which is nice. They weren’t enforcing any rule about limiting visitors to only 10 at a time (thank goodness).

    Even though I have a couple of packages of dust masks that I obtained before things got crazy, I’m saving them and using bandannas from my (surprisingly large) collection. They can be washed and dried, and I don’t have to throw them away after use. I wore one at the first store folded once diagonally, like a bandit’s mask. I like being able to pull it down and treat like an accessory scarf, and being able to pull it up over my nose and mouth if I sense someone is getting nervous. But I kept having to adjust it, which was annoying. So before I went in the second store, I folded it lengthwise a couple of times and put hair ties on it to hang it off my ears. It was much more stable. However, my breathing fogged up my glasses with both methods, so I may take one of the several patterns I’ve accumulated and sew up something that doesn’t have to be folded.

  129. Power Grab says:

    @ gallopingcamel:

    Re: “I only have six rolls of toilet paper left but you are welcome to them all. Back in WWII we used to cut up newspaper for use in the ‘loo. I have not bought a newspaper in 10 years but maybe I will start again. I won’t read them but it seems oddly appropriate to use them to wipe my rear end.”

    LOL! I have heard of people using pages from the Sears catalog in their outhouses, but I hadn’t specifically heard of using newspaper. I do take two newspapers. They’re quite thin these days. Maybe I shouldn’t be so quick to put them in the recycle bin out in the parking lot….

  130. Power Grab says:

    Oh, I snagged some small cans of diet tonic water today. Says it has saccharine in it.

    Did I see here that some are using it as a preventative? Would the quinine help the RBC/oxygen problem like chloroquinine? How much should one drink to use it as a preventative?

  131. Timster says:

    Re Tonic and “How much should one drink to use it as a preventative?”

    I would say as much as your Gin supply would allow. But I am not a medical professional so YMMV. I am buying as many as the super market restrictions currently allow as we have quite a good supply already of Gin. Worse case for me and mine is that we enjoy ourselves :-)

    Re Toilet Paper
    I think you can blame the us (the Aussies) for the run on toilet paper. Seem to remember the hoarding started here. Though I still have no idea why. We normally have a months supply one hand of most things non-perishable, as we live an hour round trip from any reasonable stores, so we just bought more supplies when we could, along with other non-perishables. Now we can do a fortnightly visit to the very local village grocers and get some fresh top ups. This whole episode is prompting us to stop procrastinating and get our veggie garden operational.

    Re Marmite.
    If there was a run on Vegemite here in Oz, they would need to call in the military I think. Personally I can’t stand the stuff, but a tablespoon or two goes into the dog food when its made. They also love it on toast, with butter :-)

  132. A C Osborn says:

    EM, more on the “treating the wrong desease”, there is a really good post on WUWT tat expalins what is actually happening and not what the doctors thought was happening.
    It is by Bescrambled April 11, 2020 at 12:35 pm

    This could be a massive game changer.

  133. Another Ian says:


    Willis has some words on quinine here – acquired during his
    Malaria Adventures”

    “Of Quinine And Chloroquine”


  134. Steve C says:

    Re Marmite (of which this Brit is an enthusiastic user), it also makes a nice hot drink, assuming, of course, that you like the stuff in the first place. About a rounded teaspoonful in a 250ml mug (the Marmite always tries to overdo it, so try to start lean and adjust to taste). Add freshly boiled water, stir (very) well, and I like a dash of black pepper stirred in mine to add a certain something. Makes a distinct change from those milky, sugary type beverages!

    On toast, Vegemite every time for me, as its less salty taste makes it easier to get the quantity just right. The only problem in the UK is that it isn’t nearly as ubiquitous as Marmite. but you’ll never be short of B vitamins with either product, consumed anyhow ;-)

  135. H.R. says:

    @Power Grab re quinine

    We’ve kicked around quinine and dosages here over the past couple of weeks. Too much quinine is not good. E.M. found a reference to 400 mg/week as an OK long-term dosage.

    When I got home from Florida, I discussed using quinine and zinc with my doctor. She checked for interactions with the medications I was taking. There were none, so she made sure I was aware of the primary harmful long-term effect, which is eye damage leading to blindness. IIRC, the retina begins to detach.

    She was aware of the early reports of the early success of HCQ + Zpak + zinc. It’s the zinc that does the heavy lifting. The HCQ just allows the zinc to work. She told me to go ahead if I wanted to because she didn’t see a problem for me and was inclined to think it might actually be a good idea.

    Someone coined the term “Trump Cocktail” for the HCQ + Zpak + zinc, knowing it would majorly set off the TDS of the Yellow Stream Media.

    A one-liter bottle of tonic water has 83 mg of quinine. I believe all the tonic water makers use that because of the FDA. If the content is above 83 mg/l, it’s considered medicinal, controlled by the FDA, and you’d need a prescription for it. At 83 mg/l and below, it’s considered a supplement and you can sell it at that concentration, and like any supplement, the maker can’t make any claims about using it to treat any specific condition and that it will prevent or cure anything in particular. Users of any dietary supplement have to add up 2 + 2 themselves to get 4.

    I was drinking 3 liters of tonic water per day so I was getting roughly 250 mg of quinine per day. That’s too much, as far as I can tell, so I backed down to one liter every other day which is a bit more than 250 mg/week. Also, I noted that when one of the quinine refinements – chloroquine or hydrochloroquine – was prescribed to travelers as a malaria preventive, the first dose was large, 500(?) mg once or twice in a short period, then you went to 200 or 300 mg/week.

    Malaria became resistant to quinine, so chloroquine was developed. Then malaria became resistant to chloroquine, so hydrochloroquine was developed. But using any of these against the Chinese virus isn’t using the effect it has on malaria. It is using a side effect, which happens to allow zinc to more easily get into cells where the zinc knocks out the virus.

    My calculus is that quinine or any of the refinements of quinine + zinc will work because they allow zinc to do its job, and the virus hasn’t mutated in some fashion to become resistant to zinc.
    I wrote all of the above because non-Americans aren’t familiar with the workings of our version of Bizarre Bureaucracy known as the FDA and to answer your question on dosage with my take on it.

    The rest was a bit of a compilation of the bits and pieces of information that people have found and posted here over the past few weeks that are spread out over the various threads on the Wuhan Flu topic.

    Those with better memory than me, please feel free to jump in and tweak the details, but I believe I’ve got a reasonably accurate summary of the bits and pieces.

    Oh, and watch out for too much zinc, Power Grab, but it seems you’re already aware of that.

  136. H.R. says:

    @Power Grab – BTW, I discussed masks with my doctor while I was there.

    Her informed opinion is that none of the masks that the public or medical professionals will wear, except for the most virus-proof self-contained positive pressure bunny suits, work and will NOT prevent exposure to the virus.

    But she highly recommends wearing a mask of any sort; whatever you have or make for two reasons:

    1) If you are exposed, a mask will reduce the viral load, thus giving your body a chance to start building antibodies before the virus really takes over. Masks should increase the odds that your case will be milder than if you hadn’t worn a mask of some type.

    2) You could be an asymptomatic carrier, out and about and unknowingly shedding the virus all over the place. Masks will reduce the number that you can shed, thus lessening the viral load you could transmit to someone that has yet to be exposed to the virus.

    So masks do work when everyone uses them in that they will help reduce the severity of cases when people are exposed.
    Gloves are much the same, even when properly trained to use them.

    The use of gloves in medical settings is very limited in how they are used. Patient is in the O.R. or exam room. Dr. enters and immediately grabs and puts on gloves. Dr. never directly comes into contact with patient. Gloves are removed and tossed when Dr. is finished, all according to best practice.

    In public gloves are worn throughout a wide variety of actions; opening doors, opening and closing car doors, getting keys out and putting them away, getting credit cards out to pay and putting them away, operating a gas pump, picking up products and bringing home those products, stuck with using and handling cash. The variety is endless, though actually somewhat limited in practice.

    At some point, pretty much everyone will make a mistake, even if highly trained.

    Maybe you’ll wear fresh gloves into a store. You park, get fresh gloves out of the box on the seat beside you and off you go. Shop. You get back to the car and when done loading up and starting the car, you remove the gloves and put them in a sealable bag.

    There are a whole bunch of errors there. The gloves weren’t removed before getting out your keys and touching the door handle. In the store, you removed your credit card from a wallet and put it back using gloves that have handled a bunch of stuff and touched a lot of surfaces. Now you have a contaminated card and wallet and pocket or purse and all its contents.

    Enough already. You get the point. Even if you know what to do for any situation, there are so many different situations that a slight distraction might cause a mistake. “Dang! Forgot to remove my gloves this time before opening the car door.”

    So gloves out in the wild don’t work either because most everyone will eventually make a mistake.

    But it’s the same thing as with masks, if you use the gloves all the time, you will learn to make fewer and fewer mistakes. And the fewer mistakes you make means you’ve greatly reduced the odds of your exposure to a major viral load. And for the time you are wearing them you won’t get any of the virus on your hands.

  137. A C Osborn says:

    HR I wear gloves, face mask and wrap around safety glasses.
    I agree that you really have to think about what you are doing re gloves.
    I wear thick leather ones, I take one off to get out my Wallet, cards, money or car keys etc and to open the car door & boot.
    I put the glove back on to place the shopping in the boot.
    I then place the gloves in an old plastic wash tub in the boot. The mask & glasses go on the front seat of the car without touching the mask or lens of the glasses.
    They are left in the car until I venture out again, uasully about a week later.
    The gloves I put back on to take the shopping in to the house and wash them thoroughly and hang them out to dry.

    The alternative is having to remember to clean
    the car door handles inside & out, the boot lid handle, the handbrake, the gearshift, the indicators, the steering wheel and car keys.
    the house inside & outside door handles and my wallet.

    Which way do you think most people are likely to make a mistake with the gloves route or the bare hands route?

    As for the advise of no protection it is utter madness, they say in the UK just wash your hands.
    What about your face, if you have walked through someones cough, sneeze or heavy breathing your face will have viruses on it. They never mention washing your face, just your hands, so clean washed hands touch face and they are re-infected to infect eyes, mouth food etc.
    Plus nose mouth and eyes could have been contaminated anyway.
    I think the advice is criminal neglect.

  138. A C Osborn says:

    EM, have you read either link on the wrong treatment?
    The problem is the Virus attacks your blood stripping out and releasing Iron ions in the hemoglobin which
    a. depletes the blood’s oxygen carrying capacity and
    b. the Iron ions act as free radicals damaging the lungs and other organs.

  139. jim2 says:

    RE: gloves. Many grocery stores, if not all, in my area have hand sanitizers of some sort for use by customers. I use it on the gloves I am wearing on the way out. That makes the glove much less a risk at that point forward.

  140. H.R. says:

    Dear gallopingcamel

    I am writing to inform you that the Great Marmite Hunting Expedition of 2020 into the mysterious and exotic Wilds of the Eastern U.S. Midwest was………………(drum roll)…………….


    I and my gunbearer, Ungowa-maui-owie, had packed up the gear and our caravan cautiously penetrated the dense growth at the edge of The Wilds at 9:30 am.

    After hours of hacking our way through a near impenetrable mass of Honda Odysseys and Kia Souls, we finally arrived at our base camp, a carefully chosen parking space in a secure Kroger trading post, populated by a small tribe of Cashiers. I had arranged for stalkers to meet me at the trading post, but through some unfortunate communication, there were only Stockers there.

    So, without the expected stalkers to accompany us, we decided to proceed anyhow. We dressed in our urban jungle protective gear, and entered the Marmite’s territory, stealthily worked our way, through the various Marmite trails, some completely jumbled up and some nearly barren.

    After an hour or so of carefully working our way deeper and deeper into Marmite territory, with only a brief stop to collect a few bags full of eggs of the Reese’s species (they abandon their eggs on Easter Sunday every year), we peeked around the corner of one of the Marmite trails and…

    There they were! Three of those mighty and elusive Marmites unwarily reposing on a plateau about 4 feet above the valley floor. Undisturbed, they looked rather peaceful, although most people are aware of how dangerous a Marmite can be when disturbed.

    I got down low and with Ungowa-maui-owie close behind, began stalking them, creeping inch by inch towards the unsuspecting herd of Marmites. After what seemed like agonizing hours, I had finally reached cover close enough to risk taking a shot.

    After a brief moment, taking a deep breath and steeling myself to face what was to come, I leaped up out of the cover and took my shot. BAM! and the lead Marmite dropped, but the other two had reared and were preparing to charge with the full fury of an enraged Marmite.

    I quickly reloaded and Bang! Dropped the second one. I barely managed to cycle the bolt on my gun but managed to get off a shot just as the last Marmite was upon us. After I made the shot, I threw myself out of the path of the charging Marmite just in time to escape a horrible death. My gunbearer was not so fast or fortunate was gravely injured before the last Marmite finally dropped. With my last shot I had managed to hit a vital spot on the Marmite, fatally wounding the young bull Marmite, but not stopping him until he had wreaked a fair amount of damage.

    Exhausted, with only my wounded gunbearer and I surviving the charge, I packed up the Marmites into a wire cage on wheels that I had brought in case I was able to capture a live Marmite, laid the weakened gunbearer, whose breathing was now very raspy, on top of the carrier, and began working my way out of Marmite territory and back to civilization.

    Upon reaching our base camp after an arduous trek of many hours, I bound up Ungowa-maui-owie’s wounds, loaded the Marmite carcasses into the expedition vehicle, and began making my way home, back through the Honda Odysseys and Kia Souls, so I could file this report and share my success with you.

    I did not manage to bag that 4th member of that Marmite herd. I suspect someone had passed through recently and had spooked that one, driving him off farther into the wilds.

    I will be getting in touch with you by wire, if the telegraph office is sill open, or by email later today, which is more likely since it’s been who knows how long since anyone has sent a telegram.

    From there we can make arrangements to transport the Marmites to you for a detailed autopsy of them, perhaps making some important discoveries of what lies beneath their remarkably hard and smooth outer shell.

    Meanwhile I shall look forward to seeing you at the next Chiefio Blog Rod and Gun Club Gala.

    I send my regards,

  141. A C Osborn says:

    Jim2, that would depend on whether or not you handled the bags or whatever you carry the goods in, as the they could be infected so could re-infect the gloves.
    But it is still great practice,in the UK I am not sure how many shops have sanitizers, I don’t think it is very many in my area.
    I suppose the gloves could be given a coating of virus killer as well before you go out.

  142. E.M.Smith says:

    @A C Osborn:

    IMHO our CDC has the same charge of criminal neglect.

    I have a “car bag”. In it are wrap around glasses, mask, and bottle of rubbing alcohol. Each car has a box of gloves. Some latex. Others vinyl. Whatever was available or already in my stock of prep. On the last Florida run, 2 months ago, I practiced things like the gas pump and shopping. Developed the habits. Made and observed the mistakes.

    Now what I do:

    When parked, put on gloves, glasses and mask. Move credit card to shirt pocket (shirt pocket now a “dirty zone”). My big key ring is a caribiner. Each car key is on its own small ring. Car key removed from caribiner goes in light jacket pocket, which isolates it if an issue happens. (Optionally, gloves, glasses and mask can go on here too)

    Out of the car, lock door, key back to same pocket. Do shopping.

    At checkout, card comes from shirt pocket, then back to shirt pocket. Keypad buttons pushed with finger knuckle.

    At the car, unlock, keys back to same pocket. Pocket now a dirty zone. Load car. Walk to trash basket and remove gloves (one hand, the left, is used as little as possible so as clean as possible at this point. At the gas pump, it does the fuel hatch, gas cap, and card insert /retrive while the right does the fuel nozzle and pad keys). With dirtier hand, the pinkey hooks into the neck of the cleaner glove from the outside, pulling it down and off. Then the no glove hand hooks a pinkey into the neck of the glove from the INSIDE, pulling it down, off, and partly enveloping the other glove, all inside out. Drop into trash.

    Back at the car, mask comes off and into a dedicated paper bag (hook straps at ear with pinkey, remove forward and down into bag). Paper towel, or old wipe, is wet with alcohol. Wipe / wash hands. Get keys from dirty pocket, drizzle alcohol and clean, into ignition. Remove glasses, wipe / clean with alcohol cloth. Onto rear seat to dry. Wipe any touched surfaces (door handles, steering wheel, alcohol bottle, whatever) and hands again, cloth to center console near shifter for reuse later and to dry.

    Remember your card and 2 pockets are still dirty zones as is the bought stuff. Keys are now clean, so go into clean pocket at home.

    At home, new gloves to unload car. Stuff placed in aging zone (paper packaged) for 24 – 48 hours, or alcohol rubbed. Wash hands. Mask sterilized (oven at 200 F 1/2 hour in bag) or left in car for at least a week to solar cook and age out. Wash hands. Glasses back to car bag. Wash card and back to wallet. Keys back to carabiner. Wash hands. Strip and wash clothes. Shoes left outside door in the sun, or washed.

    I have a box of gloves and a mask in each car, and 3 cars in use. That means at least 3 weeks between a repeat for shopping. Glasses, alcohol, tub of wipes, spare mask, and added gloves in car bag move from car to car. Nothing goes in the bag unless new or cleaned first. Handle only touched with clean hands or clean gloves.

    I have some tight fitting rubbery garden gloves for if / when disposable run out. They would be alcohol washed instead of disposed. Or hot soapy water washed at home.

    I think that’s a fairly effective protocol.

  143. A C Osborn says:

    EM, I would say so, the governments and WHO can stuff their advice where the sun don’t shine.

  144. p.g.sharrow says:

    @HR; wonderful to hear that you had a successful hunting trip. Unfortunate that it wasn’t a home run, but, at least it was a 3 bagger.. ;-) Nice job writing about that exciting adventure as well…pg

  145. H.R. says:

    @A C Osborn (and others) re gloves.

    It’s clear to me that it is smart and important to wear a mask and gloves, not because they will completely protect you from exposure, but it will minimize exposure when it happens, and that could make all the difference in how severe your case of the Wuhan Flu will be.

    As you say, the advice of no gloves, no mask is NUTS!

    I hadn’t thought of wearing heavy gloves because I had plenty of disposable nitrile and vinyl gloves on hand. I use them to protect my hands from grease, adhesives, and other things when puttering on projects. Now I keep a box of them in the car so I can’t jump in the car and… oops, forgot gloves.

    You just reinforce the point that people should gloves, but also of a type where the person is comfortable that they will make the fewest mistakes. Besides it may be the only gloves someone has tow work with.

    I can walk and chew gum, so I’m going to have a look at using heavy, non-disposable gloves. I can see they will be way better in some situations, but I need to think through when it’s best for me to use them and what mistakes can be made.

    That’s what’s great about kicking this stuff around here. I hadn’t thought of heavy gloves since I have disposables. Yet you post with info on where they are advantageous and what mistakes could be made and Zoom! in just a few minutes everyone is way up the learning curve.

    I also have some washable gloves that have rubber palms. They are somewhere between leather gloves and nitrile gloves. I mostly use them for mowing and gardening. I’ll have to think about where they fit it. Those come 10 pairs in a pack.

  146. E.M.Smith says:

    @AC Osborn:

    Yes I’ve seen it. Was going to do an article but then comments covered it enough. IMHO, we need a lot more of these fitted for 100% O2, and fewer ventilators.


    Then big dose Vit-C to reduce oxidative damage and anticoagulants.


    Nice. Been cooped up a bit too long, eh?

  147. Ossqss says:

    I would think some cloth gardening type gloves could be removed and dropped into a CDC level diluted 4-1 bleach solution (sealed container to inhibit evaporation) for a minute and put up to dry for reuse. Dilution rate varies with original bleach concentration level. I have not used gloves, just liberally applying hand sanitizer when needed and where needed (car door handle) or washing hands in my outside sink.

    Still cannot find sanitizing wipes here. Amazing hoarding still going on, so been substituting with various alternatives.

  148. H.R. says:

    @pg – well, thanks. That was a pretty nice double play yourself to change a hunting story into a baseball game :o)

    The first part is a little hard to read as it’s all italics. As I recall, I meant to close the italics after the title, “Great Marmite Hunting Expedition of 2020”. Well eventually they got closed where I used italics further down. So at least the second half reads easier.

    Now I have to go send a telegram to gallopingcamel to arrange transport of all those Marmite carcasses (carcassi?).

  149. p.g.sharrow says:

    I nominate HR for the first “By the Mark Twain Veracity Club” award for his report on the “Great Marmite Hunting Expedition of 2020 into the mysterious and exotic Wilds of the Eastern U.S. Midwest.” We pray the brave Gun Bearer Ungowa-maui-owie fully recovers from his injuries incurred while assisting you in your conquest of these beasts…pg .

  150. E.M.Smith says:


    You did.

    I fixed the italics.

    For reasons known only to The Bug Gods, from time to time WordPress inserts a new “open” of whatever you just closed (then a close of it just before the next open).

    This has happened to me too. The signature of it is that the /i in brackets is there and immediately followed by a new angle enclosed i and you just know nobody typed all those bloody angle brackets by accident. (Or bold or whatever).

    It is rare and random enough that the priority on the bug report is low and the estimated work to find it high, so will be ignored for years. Or will have repeated “closed- could not reproduce” entries.

  151. H.R. says:

    Well, so long as it doesn’t involve garters, either royal or from strippers, or oak leaf clusters or iron crosses or any other hardware, and so long as club rules dictate numerous toasts and salutes of beer from 23 oz schooners, not those wimpy little champagne flutes, I’d think about accepting such a nomination… so long as Joe Biden doesn’t get the nomination.

    And hats, funny hats. We must have funny hats. If no-one gets to wear funny hats, I’m outta there.

  152. H.R. says:

    @E.M. – Thanks for fixing that. It being longish, I figured I missed it. I saw a few other things I missed, so I just figured I missed that too. Turns out I didn’t.

    People are smart here, so I don’t worry much about minor typos and such. People here can figure most of the small stuff out.

    But, man, that was one rough patch of italics. I’m surprised to find that, given all the other errors, it wasn’t my mistake after all.

  153. Power Grab says:

    @ HR:

    I had to read your report on the Marmite expedition aloud. Too funny!

    If that didn’t take too long for you to compose, I would like to humbly request more such missives.

  154. Power Grab says:

    @ HR re zinc

    Oh, I also picked up a tin of smoked oysters. IIRC, they’re supposed to be the best food source for zinc.

    What I have heard is that zinc and copper are antagonistic. If you get too much of one, you can present with symptoms like you’re short on the other.

    Let your food be your medicine, and let your medicine be your food, etc. That keeps running in the back of my mind.

  155. Bill In Oz says:

    This vile viral bit of chemistry can be destroyed ! Yesterday in SA just 3 new cases were found with 33 for the whole of Australia.

    Here is how we did it !

    The ‘shut down’ and the social isolation measures are working. At all times we are instructed to stay 1.5 meters from other people. ( The one exception is in our own homes )

    Currently there is NO international travel into Australia except for the odd flight of returning Australians who all go into supervised quarantine for 2 weeks. Flights out are for foreigners returning to their home countries as ALL Australians are forbidden to leave the country.( There are the odd exceptions for diplomatic personnel, essential workers and aid workers ). This will probably happen until the end of the year.

    Also there is hardly any travel whether by air, land or sea, between states except for essential services personnel. Any one else travelling into another state ( eg. South Australia from interstate), has to do 2 weeks supervised quarantine.

    All service industries are closed or people are working from home. Restaurants, cafes, are all forbidden to to serve sit down meals. But are allowed to do take aways. All religious gatherings are banned but most are doing them via online. Gyms are closed. All sport games are banned or suspended. Marriages can happen but only with 5 people present if each person is 1.5 meters away from anyone else. Funerals for some odd reason can happen with 10 people present if each person is 1.5 meters away from anyone else.

    Schools are still open primarily for essential service workers an parents of other occupations are ‘encouraged’ to not send kids to school.

    Queerly hardly anyone is wearing face masks or gloves in my part of SA. ( I do wear a face mask outside my home). It is more common in the big cities and more crowded inner suburban areas.

    The facts that we are a dispersed suburban nation seems to be a key factor in our success. this provides a level of automatic isolation. This has implications for the Greenist project to change Australia into a nation of dense cities of high rise dwellers without cars using public transport. It is doomed to complete failure.Why ? Because this pandemic has shown us all that it infects & kills so bloody easily.

    About 66% of all detected instances of infection are the result of incoming travellers bring the disease here from overseas with them. Another 25% are infections by those in contact with returned travellers. There is one instance of unexplained community transmission in North West Tasmania around Burnie with many people infected from an unknown source ( asymptomatic carrier ) that has somehow infected hospital staff and patients. So two hospitals have been closed down for deep cleaning. All the staff at these hospitals have been ordered into 2 weeks quarantine along with all their families. ( That’s about 1500 people )

    The national government has increased payments to unemployed on social security. And is also offering a $1500 a fortnight ‘Job Keeper ” per employee support to all businesses which have been shut down. This support will continue until the lock down is eased.

    I repeat : this dangerous infectious bit of un-alive RNA chemistry can be destroyed. The solution is to not allow it new victims and isolate & treat all the current victims.

  156. philjourdan says:

    @GC – TP and Newspapers.

    You have got it! A reason to resurrect the Printed press! It may just be their saving grace for the next few years! LOL!!!

  157. H.R. says:

    @Power Grab who wrote in part: “If that didn’t take too long for you to compose, I would like to humbly request more such missives.”

    It’s a crap shoot. I’ve already apologized elsewhere to the gang here for my uncharacteristic excess of posts and the unusual, for me, length of them.

    The weather has me pinned down and I haven’t been able to get out fishing. So the bloggers here have to suffer the consequences. If the weather breaks, I’ll be back to my 1 or 2 liners, and a couple of comments a day, sometimes skipping a day or two or three.

    If I stayed socked in, you’ll get more of my rambling in some general direction, hopefully landing at some actual point.
    Yes, it took a while. That short post took about 2-1/2 hours to write. Which is fast for me.

    It hardly takes any time to visualize what the whole story will look like. In this case it was “Walter Mitty goes to the store to buy some Marmite for gallopcamel.” Since the target audience was a Brit, gc, and the tradition there was for explorers and big game hunters to go off the Africa or India and hunt big game, then buying Marmite would become a Lion or Cape Buffalo hunting expedition in Africa. Just picture that and stich together all the imagery of such a hunt everyone has tucked away. Then just substitute Marmite for Cape Buffalo. The story is easy to write as you have many bits and pieces to choose from each step of the way. Well, at least I watched a lot of those old B&W jungle movies.

    But the hard part for me is the physical writing of the story. That’s what takes me so long. I don’t touch type. I’ve graduated from one finger to fingers, and have been working my way through grad school trying to master the 2-1/2 fingers and a thumb technique.

    The monkey wrench is that I am partially blind in both eyes in the central vision area. About 25% of the central vision in both eyes is destroyed. Totally nothing there. And that majorly affects my depth perception, so I hit a lot of wrong keys, even though you think I couldn’t miss since I am looking at the keyboard for each keystroke.

    I spend roughly 3 times more correcting typos than I actually spend writing at hunt and peck speed. And I still miss a lot because if the gap of a missing word is in a blind spot, of course I knew what I wanted to type so my brain will see it there. That happens not only when typing, but also when I (always) go back to review my posts before hitting the Post Comment button.
    I appreciate that people have enjoyed the tale. It was written to communicate to gallopingcamel that I bought some Marmite for him and to do it in an entertaining manner. On that level, it was successful.

    But by my standards, it was rushed job – yes, 2-1/2 hours is rushing if you actually read the above – and was a good bit raggedy throughout.

    I would have liked to do another two or three passes and edits to make it first class. It has the bones for it; a Walter Mitty-type, Marmite, jungle, large bore rifles, classic looking British Major with a well groomed mustache, and a native gunbearer. It has the potential of a great story.

    But I wanted to get it posted so that’s what you got.

    (P.S. This reply came in at 1 hour and 10 minutes, but hey, I’m locked in so who’s looking at the time?)

  158. ossqss says:

    @HR, I think folks would read the story of the Flat Tire Syndrome (FTS) on the way home from Florida, and appreciate it as much as I did. Taught me a lesson :-)

  159. H.R. says:

    @Ossqss – Did I write that story or did I just tell you about it over the phone?

    It is a cautionary tale worth passing on as a warning to all.

  160. ossqss says:

    That was a phone item HR. Had me at the edge of my seat. No BS, from a traveling standpoint.

  161. H.R. says:

    @philjourdan and GC – The toilet paper shortage just might save the newpapers’ ass AND the public’s ass.

  162. E.M.Smith says:


    Not so much antagonistic, as they must be in balance. Yes, oysters are the best. OTOH, my cheapo Equate brand Mens Multivitamin from Walmart has the ideal 25 mg zinc in it… but I still eat my favorite Oyster Stew….

    Oprn 8 oz can of oysters, dump in pot. Turn up to almost high.
    Fill can with milk. Put 2 pats of butter (or more…) in the oysters.
    Put a few grinds of pepper in the oysters, and a sprinkle of salt.
    When it starts to boil, dump in milk.
    When that starts to simmer, turn off burner.
    Pour into big bowl, add crackers, enjoy!

  163. E.M.Smith says:

    @Bill In Oz:

    You got it!

    Now if only our political idiots could see success and just copy it…


    Appology NOT accepted! Shut up and keep typing!


  164. p.g.sharrow says:

    @HR, we come here for education and entertainment, Kind of like the “good old days” of cracker barrel and pot belly stove or country cafe after the morning chores.
    Boy can I feel for your difficulty in getting a fine yarn down into print. I type one finger hunt and peck! Flunked typing class twice, just never seemed to get a feel for a keyboard even after 65 years of trying. Can’t spell, thank god for spell check! At least I can see. But my speed of composition is also very slow. Watching Mr Smith at the keyboard would make you cry.
    Still crafting a fine word composition takes a lot of time and refining, like any other work of art. so entertain away, maybe even slip in some education along the way. One good thing about all the years we have seen, is all the adventures we have had to draw on to hang a nice yarn on ..8-) ..pg

  165. p.g.sharrow says:

    @EMSmith, Watch “60 Minutes”, It was almost entirely of how bad things are in New York City and in their medical care system. They are using all the accepted treatments, killing themselves and their patients with their heroic efforts of ventilator intubeation and in provide critical long term ICU.care. No mention at all of the “Trump” cocktail or other treatments that the Chinese doctors found and published that did work in November and December. Before the W.H.O. and C.C.P. clamped down on information as the virus was exported into the rest of the world.
    Dr. Anthony Fauci, the US government’s top infectious disease expert has been most resistant to allowing any changes to accepted protocols even when they are proved to be ineffective and even harmful. This bureaucratic resistance borders on criminal…pg ,

  166. H.R. says:

    @p.g. – I think it was over on your blog that you told us how difficult it was for you to type comments and articles. I always remember that. At least one fellow here knows you’ve just spent a half-hour or more when I see a comment as long as the one you just made.

    Yup. It’s the physical writing part. The rest, as you say, is just spinning yarns around the potbellied stove and sharing things we’ve learned if we think it might benefit someone.

    And then there’s always that chance that we’ll accidently stumble across the Meaning Of Life or solve the World’s problems in a moment of carelessness. “Sorry. Didn’t mean to do that. Now what do we talk about.?” “1930s wringer washers? I have an idea of what to do with one.”

  167. Power Grab says:

    @ EM:

    Thanks for sharing that oyster stew recipe. It reminds me of my mom’s potato soap. Simple and basic. And GOOD! :-)

    I will have to try it.

  168. Power Grab says:

    @ philjourdan:

    Funny you should mention it, but I have seen a local story about a very small local newspaper that has taken to printing cutting lines for toilet paper on at least one page of their product. The article had a picture of it!

  169. Power Grab says:

    @ HR:

    Thank you for letting us know about the fact that typing is such a major effort for you.

    Do they say you have macular degeneration? My grandmother had that. I told my eye doctor about that. They always another look, but tell me I’m OK on that front. Grandmother did smoke, and they say that’s associated with macular degeneration.

    If they ever got the computer tools for converting spoken speech into the written word where it was closer to 100% the first time, it might make it worth using. As it is now, I avoid it like the plague.

  170. H.R. says:

    @Power Grab – I had and still have, I suppose, histoplasmosis. Here’s a link to histoplasmosis that’s focused on the damage to the eye. It’s a fast read and written for laymen by a practice that specializes in treating macular diseases.


    I was diagnosed with it early, thankfully, by our long-time family doctor. I went to her for something else and mentioned a vision problem that was puzzling and slightly amusing. Any straight lines I looked at seemed curved. The boxes on graph paper weren’t square, they bulged out with curves on all 4 sides.

    They use what is called the Amsler Grid Test to diagnose histoplasmosis in the eyes as well as a few other eye diseases. It turns out, as an engineer that only uses graph paper instead of lined paper, I was naturally using an Amsler Grid Test.

    Smart lady, was our doctor (we miss her). She did a couple of other tests and then sent me immediately to an ophthalmologist.; had him clear a spot to see me NOW.

    She wouldn’t do it, but was pretty sure I had histoplasmosis, and left it to the ophthalmologist to give me the diagnosis. He told me about histoplasmosis and scheduled treatment within a few days.

    The best practice and only treatment at the time was laser surgery where they used a laser to burn out the affected spot in the eye. When they do that, that portion of the eye is gone forever. This was 1999.

    After the laser treatment, it occurred to me that everything was so rushed, the Dr. owned the laser surgery equipment, and perhaps I had seen someone who ‘had a hammer’ so every histo case was a nail. I went to get a second opinion from an ophthalmologist I chose and researched as up at the top of the profession in our area.

    That’s where I found that the laser surgery was the only option at the time. He also mentioned that my doctor was one of the handful of doctors in the area that had the specialized equipment and that he was the best of the bunch. He said that’s who he’d see if he ever needed histoplasmosis treatment. “The best shooter in the area.” That was reassuring.

    I liked him better than my original doctor so I kept seeing him for follow-ups. If you have one instance, you have a high likelihood of having more, so they schedule follow-ups about every 6 months.

    Sure enough, a little over a year later, I noticed the odd symptoms again. I had histoplasmosis in the other eye. I went to the original doctor again for the surgery.

    I still did follow-ups with the second doctor. He is a good ‘explainer’. On the last histoplasmosis follow-up I was about 51-years old and he gave me a good news/bad news report. The good news was that there has never been a report of histoplasmosis in the eyes in anyone over age 50; zero cases. I could stop seeing him for follow-up visits, unless I just liked to chat and spend money to do it. The bad news was that they had recently developed an injection treatment for the affected area. If I had it all over again at that time I would not have lost any vision. Ah well. That’s how it goes sometimes.

    I still did my regular ol’ annual eye checkups with him. He’s the one who found out I had clear cataracts. I had never heard of such a thing. The lens doesn’t get cloudy, so it’s a hard condition to spot.

    It’s things like that is why people should see an ophthalmologist instead of an optometrist for their annual eye exams. The ophthalmologist is an MD specializing in the eyes. The optometrist’s training stops short of that. A good optometrist will know all about the eye, but they will wind up having to refer you to an ophthalmologist anyhow if they suspect a problem or know you have a problem. So why not just see the ophthalmologist in the first place?

    Most of us here are over 50, so there’s no chance of any one else getting histoplasmosis and the treatment doesn’t result in blindness nowadays.

    Anyone under 50 reading this should follow the link up at the top – easy read – so you can get a jump on it if symptoms present themselves. Early treatment is a must to prevent blindness.

    /Public Service Announcement ;o)

  171. jim2 says:

    One key thing from Jo Nova’s report on CV is the case count.

    “Herd Immunity is not realistic

    For the first time we have true randomized testing –and it shows that Austria was officially picking up about a quarter of the real number of infections in the population. So when Austria was officially saying 7,000 were infected, the true number was 28,500. Finally, this puts a solid limit on the chance that asymptomatic rate of infection was high. There is no iceberg.”

    If that is true for the US, we have 2 million cases and most are in the general population, ie not in the hospital.

  172. cdquarles says:

    I disagree with Jo on that, somewhat. Pre-existing herd immunity may not be a thing, in *every* area; but it *is* a thing globally. Then, to the extent an area doesn’t have herd immunity *yet*, that is where we will end up being, one way or another.

  173. Bill In Oz says:

    @CD, But only after a lot of false starts and thus deaths and sickened folk and destroyed economies and nations.

    That’s a tad toooo high for me or us Australians.

    Destroying this vile bit of RNA chemistry is far easier & cheaper.

    Jo has lead the charge here in Oz. And we are winning.

    There are those in the “Save Our Virus” mob who are not pleased. Tough !

  174. cdquarles says:

    That’s not necessarily so elsewhere, even if it is so in Australia right now; because there will be other bits of vile DNA as well as RNA chemistry to come along, later.

    Mortal man, doomed to die; and the span of a man’s years shall be 120. Plus, I am saying this after having come near to death in August, 2018; as well as having seen plenty of death elsewhere.

  175. A C Osborn says:

    A question for you guys.
    In the UK NHS we have a shortage of Gowns, which mostly come from, you guessed it bloody China.
    They are obviously disposable, but why?
    Why can’t they be placed on a mannequin after use and sent through a sterilisation chamber for re-use.
    Are they that cheap it is not worth the UV & chemicals to clean them?
    When they are in very short supply it is difficult to put a price on them though.

  176. cdquarles says:

    Having disposable gowns make them less likely to be a source of a nosocomial infection. They are made of paper, I believe; so any sterilization would be tricky, at best. Cloth gowns can be re-used. In the US, patient gowns *are* cloth. The laundry service uses *hot* water to do it and probably strong detergents, too.

    All that said, UV lights would be useful a limited number of times to help; but the risks, right now in some situations, is too high. In some other cases, you could make a case for limited re-use.

  177. YMMV says:

    jim2: “One key thing from Jo Nova’s report on CV is the case count.
    “Herd Immunity is not realistic””

    With the assumption that everybody can get it, that is true. It requires 80 to 90% to get it, by some estimates. So herd immunity is only good for the last 10%. That’s not much immunity.

    However, if some are naturally immune, for whatever reason (genetic, good diet with zinc and vitamins, other ???), then herd immunity is easier. Basing policy on herd immunity without a vaccine is still dangerous, a false hope.

    We know that this virus is highly contagious, but imagine if it was 100% contagious. Nature is always very profligious …
    1. utterly and shamelessly immoral or dissipated; thoroughly dissolute.
    2. recklessly prodigal or extravagant.
    … definition 1 is fun and might fit, but I mean the sense of 2.]
    How much pollen trees produce, the number of seeds for most plants. Most of these fail to grow, but enough are lucky to land in a good place and the species continues. 100% is not needed when you compensate with numbers.

    With this virus, contact with some part of the nose or lungs is bad, but maybe not all of those planted seeds grow. If they did, I think we would have a much worse pandemic. Everybody in that bus or airplane or room would get it; but we don’t see that. Why not? Does it grow better on those with a weak immune system?, a vitamin deficiency?, or what…

  178. E.M.Smith says:

    With disposable gowns, you doff into a bag and close it, pitch it or burn it. Infection risk ends.

    With cloth, it gets laundered, so all along the laundry chain, you have infection risk.

    One single $Million liability suit buys a lot of paper… And you don’t need to pay for laundering, hangers, etc.

  179. Bill In Oz says:

    @CDQuarles : Personally I think that type of fatalism generates it’s own death statistics. It may resonate in the USA. It does not here. Yet another example of how, while we speak & write the same language, we are very different cultures and nations.

  180. Power Grab says:

    @ HR:

    Histoplasmosis – The first time ever heard of that was in the news years ago. The setting was the desert southwest, and the critters they discussed were rats. I had no idea it could affect the eye!

    Thank you for the PSA. :-)

  181. gallopingcamel says:

    Several years ago I gave up on WUWT but those two posts by Eshenbach linked earlier in this thread were very interesting.
    While I was rummaging around at WUWT I found this. I suspect it has been linked already on this blog but here it is again….just in case:

  182. cdquarles says:

    Fatalism? Nope. Just the facts, just the facts. Reality is what it is. If anything, I’d say the West is trying hard to avoid facing certain facts, like the one I spoke of.

    Re histoplasmosis, it is also carried by bats; and I have lived in an area of the state where it is still present.

  183. ossqss says:

    Talking about just the facts, what ever happened to “Just The Facts” that used to post on WUWT?

  184. Compu Gator says:

    Power Grab [replied] 12 April 2020 at 11:19 pm [GMT]:
    I also picked up a tin of smoked oysters. IIRC, they’re supposed to be the best food source for zinc.

    I’ve loved that tinned bivalve mollusc product since my early-teen years. But a few years ago, I started noticing that relatively inexpensive brands were “Product of China“. Hah! I wouldn’t put it past the ChiComs to pad their profits by growing them in beds whose substrate is toxic industrial waste (e.g., lead slag or somesuch).

    I might have seen more pricey tinned-then-boxed ones marked as “Product of Portugal” or “Product of Spain”, but maybe that was other seafood. I was psyched to splurge for 1 birthday, but I couldn’t find anything that I dared eat. Please understand that I’m only considering what’s been stocked by the Florida-based grocery chain Publix. Upscale places like Whole Foods might offer more healthful sourcing, but of course, only at their notoriously higher prices.

  185. philjourdan says:

    @HR – yep! I almost started resubscribing to my local rag, until I found some industrial paper.

  186. cdquarles says:

    Remember, like Larry, I *have* been an EMA person and *have* worked on the front lines. Food for thought: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/eci.13222.

  187. jim2 says:

    Trump’s CV update on TV today was wonderful. He stuck it to the YSM even more than usual. Fauci had to do penance for his CNN interview yesterday … a good time was had by all. On another note, is it just me, or are Republican women just hotter than the lefty ones?

    EXCLUSIVE: South Dakota Gov. Kristi Noem on Monday announced a statewide clinical trial of hydroxychloroquine for the possible treatment of COVID-19, making her state the first in the country to institute a program exploring the potential effectiveness of the drug in treating and preventing coronavirus.


  188. cdquarles says:

    Re bivalved mollusk, fishermen have been significantly impacted, and impacted adversely. I lived in Mobile for a time and worked for a Section 330 clinic outside Mobile during that time. A seafood festival, in early October, was something I really liked: https://www.orangebeachal.gov/.

  189. Compu Gator says:

    Compu Gator [replied] 14 April 2020 at 2:00 am [GMT]:

    {“Compu Gator says:

    I’ve loved [the] tinned [smoked oysters] product since my early-teen years. But a few years ago, I started noticing that relatively inexpensive brands were “Product of China“. [….] I wouldn’t put it past the ChiComs to pad their profits by growing them in beds whose substrate is toxic industrial waste [….]

    I also wouldn’t trust the Red Chinese not to stock up on oysters for Western markets during mostly seasonal outbreaks of paralytic shellfish poisoning (PSP) and domoic-acid poisoning [†]. That’s if they believed they could get away with it somehow. Those potentially fatal toxins are not deactivated by cooking. But when investigation of the resulting deaths began, many of the next-of-kin would be able to provide the empty tins to U.S. or U.K. inspectors & coroners.

    Note †: Paralytic shellfish poisoning is definitely caused in bivalve molluscs by filter-feeding on dinoflagellates, and domoic-acid poisoning might also be (I forgotten from more than 25 years ago).

  190. ossqss says:

    CG, any filter feeder in the water is a product of their environment.

    Not buying Miami beach clams either :-)

  191. gallopingcamel says:

    Female Republican governors are hotter than their Democrat peers. Who can forget governor Palin?

    Better still they tend to have better policies. South Dakota is one of at least five states that have not imposed any kind of “Lockdown”. You might expect that COVID-19 would be spreading like wild fire and it is but the state is doing better than many states that have imposed lockdowns.

    March 13…..5 cases
    March 20…14
    March 27…58
    April 3……187

    When the dust settles it will be interesting to compare states that imposed lockdowns late or not at all with those that hit the panic button.

  192. Bill In Oz says:

    @CDQuarles, your facts I call fatalism mate… I do the anti-aging stuff as well.. Pleased to be frustrating “nature’s ‘programmed ageing”. Take care !

  193. jim2 says:

    @ gallopingcamel – the hotness of Republican women in no way detracts from their high intelligence. In this case, Governor Noem is pushing a (non-clinical thank God) trial of hydroxychloroquine.

  194. David A says:

    There should have been four or five trials at least, all communicating with each other, all learning, and done by now. Also, of course, the connection with zinc properly applied would be necessary and I assume a component of such studies. Yet apparently we have a CDC that is symptomatic of the social disease of buracratic- agendaism, Perhaps the biggest pandemic of all.

  195. Another Ian says:

    “Dr. Fauci’s own career-making medical research had no clinical control group, used historic controls #coronavirus”


  196. gallopingcamel says:

    A few minutes ago four 125 gram Marmite bottles arrived. What a glorious sight!
    The folks on this website are awesome!
    Thank you H.R., since thanks to you I have been Marmiteless for only three days. More Marmite is on the way from the UK but it won’t get here until May 12.

    Happily, supplies of marmalade and Earl Grey tea have not been disrupted. I have found that “Kentucky Legend” smoked ham is a good substitute for Ulster bacon. Don’t buy the brown sugar cured product since it tends to go black if you fry it.

  197. E.M.Smith says:


    Since your emergency ration if Marmite has arrived, I’ve redacted your email & phone number above. Should you suffer another shortage, it looks like Amazon ships it. $9 for 4 oz. Free shipping with Prime.

  198. H.R. says:

    @E.M. – And you can see why Rhoda Klapp – someone in the “Hates It” column – suggested throwing it at the herons. It’s a little smaller than an American baseball, the curves fit the hand nicely, and the flat top is the perfect place for two fingers to induce a good spin.

    You could throw a wicked curveball with these jars, empty if you’re in the “Love It” column or full, if you’re in the “Hate It” faction.

  199. E.M.Smith says:

    Or emptied then filled with dirt if you are in the Hate Herons group! :-)

  200. ossqss says:

    @HR, curveballs like those rusty copper coated BB’s we shot ? :-)

  201. H.R. says:

    @Ossqss – Oh yeah. That was fun! I can’t believe I could see them in flight. I’m thinking of getting a Red Ryder BB gun just because it’s fun to watch the “Flight of The Bumbling BBs.”

    Oh, You know how I was puzzled about why I could see through your scope and it never blacked out on me? Same scope, same eye relief. When I got home I tried shooting mine without my glasses and it was amazing. I never once got the blackout in the eyepiece.

    The other amazing thing was that, after all that wrenching I did on the elevation and windage, my pellet gun was shooting dead center, 10X… except when I screwed up the trigger pull. Even then the flyers were only causing a 2″ or 2-1/2″ group.

    I have no idea why neither one of us could not get very close with it. We haven’t had the weather yet where I could take it out in a stiff breeze to see if that was the major effect.

  202. ossqss says:

    @HR, I blame scope issues on travel in a truck bed, Or Beer, or Linger Lodge, take your pick, they all work :-)

    I did my first trip to Wallyworld yesterday with a mask on. Yeah, it was a 30 year old N95 mask, but I could not use it effectively. I ain’t doin that again. I did however, purchase a 50 pack of surgical masks on Amazon, now at a discount from $60 bucks for 50 to $16, so I bought them. It is amazing to have an edict to wear a facemask when you don’t really have any new ones and can’t even buy them locally, aside from the old Bandanas.

    Heck, I been making wipes for 2 weeks due to none left syndrome, even online! Tried to get to the free shipping level with a purchase of wipes (that were in stock) and a Red Ryder BB to replace the one I sent north with my oldest. She did not really need the CircuitJudge as her roommates emphasized to me), but the dang wipes sold out before I could click the button.

    No wipes, but I got a Red Ryder at Wallyworld to replace my missing one yesterday. Along with 4 cases of beer and 30oz bag of Smokhouse Almonds and some rolled oats for experimentation. Yeah, you should have seen some of the looks I got from others :-)

  203. H.R. says:

    One of my favorite T-shirts I saw at the range had the authentic looking ATF at the top in large letters.

    Below it said in smaller letters
    Who’s bringing the chips?

  204. Sera says:

    @ H.R.

  205. jim2 says:

    EXCLUSIVE: There is increasing confidence that COVID-19 likely originated in a Wuhan laboratory, though not as a bioweapon but as part of China’s attempt to demonstrate that its efforts to identify and combat viruses are equal to or greater than the capabilities of the United States, multiple sources who have been briefed on the details of early actions by China’s government and seen relevant materials tell Fox News.

    This may be the “costliest government cover-up of all time,” one of the sources said.

    The sources believe the initial transmission of the virus was bat-to-human, and that “patient zero” worked at the laboratory, then went into the population in Wuhan.


  206. H.R. says:

    From the report jim2 cites: “[…] though not as a bioweapon but as part of China’s attempt to demonstrate that its efforts to identify and combat viruses are equal to or greater than the capabilities of the United States […]”

    Given the CDC’s track record, I’m going to call it a tie between the U.S. and China. They seem to equally incompetent at this point.

    As Chiefio has pointed out here and others have elsewhere, this wasn’t a bioweapon. You don’t unleash something that, for genetic or cultural reasons, your own population is more susceptible to than “the enemy.”

    And as a natural result of the culture, Emperor Xi is all wise and perfect and can do no wrong, therefore all loyal reporters will ignore negative reports and help hide any problem that might reflect badly on Dear Leader, who in this case, is heroically and effectively fighting the virus. If people elsewhere find out by seeing things with their own lying eyes, then deny it anyhow and accuse them of actually starting and being the problem.

    And that’s why the Chinese controlled press and politicians insist on calling it CoVid-19 instead of the Wuhan Flu or Chinese Virus.

  207. E.M.Smith says:


    That’s the theory I’ve believed to be most probable since the first rumbiling about “bio weapon”. You don’t need malice, just stupid, and there is plenty of stupid.

    I’ve said it before, but bears repeating: A relatively well paid researcher could afford special “fresh food” more than most. So after work, would be quite likely to visit the seafood market on the way home.

    With a probable 50% asymptomatic carriers and 80% of the symptomatic folks “flu like” and only after a couple of days: Having the first case full blown symptoms “at the market” is unlikely, but having 4 “with a cold” that you ignore as the symptoms are wrong, 5 with no symptoms at all that you never detect, and the one you call “patient zero” ALL arising from a low or no symptom lab worker shopping on the way home; that is the simplest while accounting for all known facts.

    One sloppy moment by a lab worker handling an infected animal is all it takes. Given general low quality and care in Chinese production, I think that highly likely.

  208. gallopingcamel says:

    A month ago my buddies in Chapel Hill sent me this paper:

    Note that as early as 2015 UNC was writing papers on bat coronaviruses. Note that two of the co-authors were from the Wuhan Institute of Virology.

    If I can connect the dots what took our intelligence services so long?

  209. E.M.Smith says:


    From your link:

    The emergence of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus (SARS-CoV) and Middle East respiratory syndrome (MERS)-CoV underscores the threat of cross-species transmission events leading to outbreaks in humans. Here we examine the disease potential of a SARS-like virus, SHC014-CoV, which is currently circulating in Chinese horseshoe bat populations1. Using the SARS-CoV reverse genetics system2, we generated and characterized a chimeric virus expressing the spike of bat coronavirus SHC014 in a mouse-adapted SARS-CoV backbone. The results indicate that group 2b viruses encoding the SHC014 spike in a wild-type backbone can efficiently use multiple orthologs of the SARS receptor human angiotensin converting enzyme II (ACE2), replicate efficiently in primary human airway cells and achieve in vitro titers equivalent to epidemic strains of SARS-CoV. Additionally, in vivo experiments demonstrate replication of the chimeric virus in mouse lung with notable pathogenesis. Evaluation of available SARS-based immune-therapeutic and prophylactic modalities revealed poor efficacy; both monoclonal antibody and vaccine approaches failed to neutralize and protect from infection with CoVs using the novel spike protein. On the basis of these findings, we synthetically re-derived an infectious full-length SHC014 recombinant virus and demonstrate robust viral replication both in vitro and in vivo. Our work suggests a potential risk of SARS-CoV re-emergence from viruses currently circulating in bat populations.

    Sure looks to me like The Smoking Gun. My guess would be that they were making another derivative, playing with that spike protein, and had a fubar.

    Oh, and as to why so long:

    Our “intelligence” services were busy trying to remove Trump via spying, lying, manipulation, deception, etc. No time left for things like pandemics, evil communist empires. and global destruction…

  210. cdquarles says:

    A reminder: What the lab people are doing is humans re-enacting that which the rest of nature does. Humans try to control it more, that’s all. So yes, I can see not only a lab leak, but also gene swapping in the wild such that it became *more* infectious once out and in that wet market.

    Embrace the power of “and” ;p. Plus, that quote is simply stating what happens with influenza viruses, in general, too, applied to the similar in some aspects coronavirus family.

  211. ossqss says:

    Just made my first batch of Pine Sol cleaning wipes using the old wipe container. Mix rates are all over the place, so I decided on 1/2 cup pine sol to 2-1/2 cups of water. Cut a roll of paper towels (half size perforated edition) in half, pulled the core out and stuffed it into the container. Poured the mixture in and pulled the towels from the core and Boom, wipes. It is pretty strong, so I am letting it sit then wiping it off with a wet paper towel. Smells better that the bleach or peroxide versions.

    Now if I could just make beer that fast :-)

  212. cdquarles says:

    Hmm, I did something similar. No regular wipes were available, but 50/50 isopropyl alcohol in water plus pine sol was … so use the pine sol directly on a paper towel. Rinse with water. Follow with the alcohol/water mix on the other half of the towel. Dry.

  213. ossqss says:

    I don’t know where else to put this, so here ya go. Access to the list of codes is in the article.


  214. jim2 says:

    Just a note: isopropanol is a heck of a tying agent for oil/water mixtures.

  215. gallopingcamel says:

    “Our “intelligence” services were busy trying to remove Trump via spying, lying, manipulation, deception, etc. No time left for things like pandemics, evil communist empires. and global destruction…”

    I wish I could disagree with you but there is no denying that Obama corrupted our justice system and our intelligence agencies.

    It did not take Trump long to roll back Obama’s official legacy but he has yet to take serious bite out of the FBI, DOJ, CIA and all the other three letter agencies that Obama corrupted. He now has the opportunity given that our legislators are on vacation until May 4.

    Trump needs to demand that Congress reports for duty on Monday, April 19 and if that does not happen he should immediately declare a “Recess”. During a recess he can fill roughly 300 slots in his administration and in the federal courts. If I was Nancy Pelosi I would show up on Monday but it will be interesting to see how this plays out.

    IMHO Nancy is playing checkers and Trump is playing chess.

  216. YMMV says:

    I was impressed by the amazing amount of gratitude Rita Wilson showed for chloroquine saving her life (sarc)

    “The actress revealed she was given chloroquine, a drug that has been used to prevent and treat malaria that is being studied as a possible COVID-19 treatment.
    She said her fever subsided after taking chloroquine, but she’s not sure if it’s the reason it went away.
    “I can only tell you that I don’t know if the drug worked or if it was just time for my fever to break, but my fever did break,” she explained. “But the chloroquine had extreme side effects.”
    After being treated with chloroquine, Wilson shared she felt “completely nauseous” and suffered from vertigo.
    “I could not walk,” she said. “My muscles felt very weak.”
    “I think people have to be very considerate about that drug,” the star added. “We don’t really know if it’s helpful in this case.”

    That raised the question of what the Australian policy on chloroquine and hydrochloroquine is.

    The Guardian said

    A spokeswoman for Gold Coast University hospital would not confirm whether Hanks and Wilson were given chloroquine, but said that “selected patients” did receive the drug.

    “Gold Coast Health has used a variety of medication in patients with more severe Covid-19,” a spokeswoman said. “Chloroquine, hydroxychloroquine and lopinavir-ritonavir have been used on selected patients.”

    This says there was so much red tape that even patients with rheumatoid arthritis had a hard time getting their prescriptions filled. But some red tape was lifted a bit. “On Thursday, hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine was exempted from a requirement to be listed on the Australian register of therapeutic goods, which is generally the only way medicine can be lawfully supplied in Australia. Similar exemptions were also granted to Remdesivir, Lopinavir and Ritonavir,” But then they placed tight new restrictions on doctors about its use.

    The article says Australia has two trials going, one given early after diagnosis, and the other given preemptively.

  217. cdquarles says:

    Here is something to look at: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.14.20062463v1.full.pdf. It is preliminary, but I see numbers which help put things into perspective.

  218. cdquarles says:

    While the supplementary information is available, the downside is that the code and data are not at this time. Hopefully they will be later. The study presented is done so as a preliminary.

  219. E.M.Smith says:


    It is looking like a lot more low symptom cases happen. At least In sunny places with good vit D levels.


    TDS is a mental disorder that elevates negative emotions over rational thought. Few ever recover.


    I like that idea!

    If they have all gone home, it IS a recess…

  220. E.M.Smith says:

    For DIY mask reuse, we know temperatures over 175 F kill the virus after a few minutes, so put the mask in a paper bag, in the oven, at the lowest temperature it can go over 170 F for 1/2 hour.

  221. YMMV says:

    @cdquarles, regarding the given link, “COVID-19 Antibody Seroprevalence in Santa Clara County, California” with 17 authors, many from prestigious Stanford University.

    Mosher in WUWT comments demolishes that paper. No matter what you think of Mosher, he is right about this. The subjects were self-selected, not random. Etc. While we all believe that the prevalence is much higher than has been presumed, this paper is weak at demonstrating that. That study does need to be done, soon and properly.

  222. E.M.Smith says:


    Yes self selection from a younger healthier cohort (social media addicts) does taint the study, but the general conclusion is IMHO valid. Just the degree in doubt.

    Here in Silicon Valley, they were telling folks to NOT go to a doctor and would NOT test you unless you had strong enough symptoms to need medical intervention or hospitalization. There must be a big cohort of folks not confirmed but posituve in the general population.

  223. Ossqss says:

    For those of you who have Netflix, I just watched an interesting documentary from 2005 called “The Coming Pandemic”. It revolved around H5N1, but was quite educational, historically. Certainly was contextually eye opening for me.

  224. YMMV says:

    The latest MedCram video: “https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NM2A2xNLWR4”
    Coronavirus Pandemic Update 59: Dr. Seheult’s Daily Regimen (Vitamin D, C, Zinc, Quercetin, NAC)

    Quercetin is a zinc ionophore, found naturally in onions, capers, and other foods.

    N-acetyl Cysteine (NAC) significantly attenuates the severity of influenza viruses

    Interesting: how he dresses to drive to work and what he has in the car.
    At work he wears an N95 mask (all day) covered by a surgical mask to protect the N95 mask.
    Even more interesting: how to take off your protective gear, and note how hand sanitizer is used at each step.
    He takes a “contrast shower”, alternating hot as possible and cold as possible, several times.

  225. p.g.sharrow says:

    this might be valuable to watch, Rudy Gulianne “Common sense”

    Special Guests Patrick Soon-Shiong & Jenna Ellis
    Be sure to listen to the second half by Dr. Soon-Shiong on Covid-19 treatments and vaccination that he has been working on…pg

  226. A C Osborn says:

    Here is the latest study to knock HQC.

    Click to access 2020.04.16.20065920v1.full.pdf

    It is grabbing headline news condemning HQC as a dangerous drug leading to death.
    It has quite a few holes in it.
    It is based on 300 Veterans in VA hospitals.
    Primarilary absolutely no mention of Zinc, Which as we know is a critical part of making HQC work.
    We also know that HQC alone is not recommended by those who have carried out previous tests (French in particular), it is the 3 part pack that works the best.
    Next they admit that those being given drugs were most likely to be more ill than those without drugs.
    No mention of how long the patients had been ill before starting treatment, again as we know the sooner the better.
    When those kind of factors are used (modelled LOL) what criteria do they use, are they based on history or COVID19 evidence, which as we know is nothing like the Flu?
    When they are used HQC doesn’t come out so bad and HQC + azithromycin was actually better than normal treatments.

  227. cdquarles says:

    Well, I take Mosher’s word with a grain of salt ;p. Yes, the study has weaknesses. The key is that it does seroprevalence and that gives us an idea of where the *true prevalence* is, in the wild. Plus, every locality will have differences when compared to other areas. Finally, variation within groups is often greater than between groups. This study just has to be representative *enough* of the facts on the ground in Santa Clara County. It puts a tentative bound on things elsewhere.

  228. E.M.Smith says:


    In the Peak Prosperity video linked here:

    He also disses the V.A. study for zero mention of zinc. You’d almost think folks were trying to make a failed test…

    Oh, and I’d add that many VA patients are old and likely low Vit-D. The M.D. in Sacramento getting very good results has vit-D in his prescriptions for a mix with the other three bits. HCQ, Zn, Zpack, Vit-D and he adds a tiny of Cu to assure the added Zn doesn’t imbalance the Cu.

  229. A C Osborn says:

    I think quite a few also try high doses of Vit C as well

  230. YMMV says:

    @cdquarles, I also linked to another video (elsewhere on this blog) which goes into the details of why the Santa Clara study is disappointing. “The key is that it does seroprevalence and that gives us an idea of where the *true prevalence* is, in the wild.” Yes, although it’s the “true” part that bothers me. Yes, it is higher than expected, and I believe the true value is higher than expected. It’s just that this study is flawed so we can’t say how much higher and still be scientific about it. Can’t let our confirmation bias show.

    The MedCram video which covers it is worth watching:

    Speaking of Santa Clara, this is interesting. “Santa Clara County announced Tuesday that three people who died at home during February and March tested positive for COVID-19 during their autopsies. The deaths took place on Feb. 6, Feb. 17 and March 6.” “possibly the earliest known coronavirus deaths in the United States.”
    So there is good reason why Santa Clara should have high prevalence; they had a head start.
    It doesn’t say when they got the virus. The first about mid-January?

    In Sweden, there are several reports that far more Swedes than previously suspected have been infected by the virus. That in the Stockholm region, 11% have had the virus, and 99% of them did not notice. Unfortunately, I can’t find an English language link for that. It comes from Professor Johan Giesecke, who is a strong advocate of Sweden’s no-lockdown policy. He claims that when the tests are done, they will show that 50% of Sweden and the UK will have had the virus.

  231. philjourdan says:

    When a site suppresses one side, no matter the side, I ignore it.

    So I am ignoring UTube, Fakebook, Twits and basically all social media. I know their “news” is false. Because they will not allow opposing view points.

    I am an old fart so probably just more sensitive. But how long will it take others to realize the same? If man is stupid, the answer is never. But if they have the sense god gave a worm, not long.

    Myspace once dominated, as did AOL. That gives me hope.

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