Was watching a gun video on pocket carry guns, From “mouse guns” to 380 guns. The (very experienced) shooter was pointing out that the 380 in your pocket is more effective than the .45 you left at home. Then also demonstrated how a .32 ACP was so small it could hide in cut-off pants pockets.
This lead to the usual to and fro about .32 ACP being pretty wimpy, but also that self defense usually was successful with any caliber since unlike Military, your goal is not body count, and unlike police, your goal is not to subdue and capture the attacker. Your goal is to end the contact and escape. That is usually achieved with any gun.
He then picked up one of The Usual single stack .32 ACP Pocket pistols and rattled off 6 or 7 shots at targets. At that moment came the the comment that got me thinking. “You could make a modern double stack magazine one of these with 12 or 14 rounds.”
Well, really, you can’t. It is semi-rimmed and there are already design issues keeping them from rim locking on each other in some magazines when using short bullets.
BUT, thinks me, you could make such a round. Maybe kick it up a bit in power too. Maybe 250 to 300 ft-lbs even. Up near the 380 in power, but slimmer.
After pondering things like rim trimming the .327 Magnum to make a self loader round, I figured I ought to see if a suitable round already existed. I think I found one.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8mm_Roth–Steyr
It is physically smaller than the 380, has a case diameter near the .32 ACP thanks to the semi-rim being added diameter, and has ft-lbs abouf 300 ft-lbs. Rimless case.
8mm Roth–Steyr 8mm Steyr - FMJ - 2.jpg Type Pistol Place of origin Austria-Hungary Specifications Case type Rimless, straight Bullet diameter 8.16 mm (0.321 in) Neck diameter 8.80 mm (0.346 in) Base diameter 8.85 mm (0.348 in) Rim diameter 8.85 mm (0.348 in) Case length 18.65 mm (0.734 in) Overall length 29.00 mm (1.142 in) Ballistic performance Bullet mass/type Velocity Energy 116 gr (8 g) FMJ 1,088 ft/s (332 m/s) 302 ft⋅lbf (409 J) 113 gr (7 g) FMJ 1,070 ft/s (330 m/s) 290 ft⋅lbf (390 J)
So about an 8.8 mm case diameter. A bit over 18 mm long.
For comparison, the 380:
9.5 mm diameter, 17 mm long case. 200 to 300 ft-lbs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.380_ACP
Case type Rimless, straight Bullet diameter .355 in (9.0 mm) Neck diameter .373 in (9.5 mm) Base diameter .374 in (9.5 mm) Rim diameter .374 in (9.5 mm) Rim thickness .045 in (1.1 mm) Case length .680 in (17.3 mm) Overall length .984 in (25.0 mm) Maximum pressure 21,500 psi (148 MPa) Ballistic performance Bullet mass/type Velocity Energy 90 gr (6 g) Buffalo JHP 1,025 ft/s (312 m/s) 210 ft⋅lbf (280 J) 95 gr (6 g) Federal FMJ 980 ft/s (300 m/s) 203 ft⋅lbf (275 J) 100 gr (6 g) Buffalo HC-FN 975 ft/s (297 m/s) 211 ft⋅lbf (286 J) 95 gr (6 g) Buffalo JHP +P 1,125 ft/s (343 m/s) 267 ft⋅lbf (362 J) 45 gr (3 g) RBCD TFSP 1,835 ft/s (559 m/s) 337 ft⋅lbf (457 J)
Then the .32 ACP:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.32_ACP
Diameter of case mouth 8.55 mm, rim 9.1 mm. Length 17.3 mm.
Case type Semi-rimmed, straight Bullet diameter .3125 in (7.94 mm) Neck diameter .3365 in (8.55 mm) Base diameter .337 in (8.6 mm) Rim diameter .358 in (9.1 mm) Rim thickness .045 in (1.1 mm) Case length .680 in (17.3 mm) Overall length .984 in (25.0 mm) Ballistic performance Bullet mass/type Velocity Energy 60 gr (4 g) JHP[1] 1,100 ft/s (335 m/s) 161 ft⋅lbf (218 J) 65 gr (4 g) JHP[2] 925 ft/s (282 m/s) 123 ft⋅lbf (167 J) 73 gr (5 g) FMJ[3] 984 ft/s (300 m/s) 158 ft⋅lbf (214 J) 73 gr (5 g) FMJ[4] 1,043 ft/s (318 m/s) 177 ft⋅lbf (240 J)
So, it looks to me like you could make a 12 to 14 round, double stack magazine, very small gun the size of a .32 ACP, with power well suited to self defence and matching the .380 in a smaller gun.
Also, tooling for the round already exists, if rare. Presently sold as a rare antique round at exorbitant prices, but IF you got this to gain acceptance, price would comedown fast. Yet at first, it would be easier than making a wildcat.
I think this price is for a big quantity, but it says $112.99 for “one” but doesn’t say one what. Box? Case? Round?
https://www.buffaloarms.com/8mm-roth-steyr-ammo-115-grain-fmj-amo8mmsteyr2
Musings from the Chiefio 
This crap is going south fast. Boomers (ok boomers) are buying guns by the boat load (and that includes the hippies). Millennials are committing suicide by the boat load (so much for their contempt of us). But soon those former hippies are going to start firing on the millennials.
That is when “Escape From New York” becomes a reality. And its sequel. Along with Portland, Chicago and Seattle. Those cities are bleeding their tax base faster than their rising murder rate.
Liberal rich folks may be stupid, but they are not going to be unprotected. And Trump is 100% correct to tell them to go to hell until they decide to clean up their act. The old adage of throwing good money after bad.
E.M., I’m taking it as $112 per box of 20 because a box of 20 is what is shown in the picture.
If it was per each, I’d think they would only show 1 cartridge.
Compteley OT and not sorry. Last Saturday night, someone local decided that 10:30 pm was a good time to do a carburettor and exhaust clean of his motorbiike. This was right outside my bedroom window. I went outside and pushed over the bike, him and his girl. Right on time, the fuzz turned up. They threatened me with charges of actual and grievous bodily harm
I gave them a good listening to. Result. My neighbours came out to support me. All charges dropped. Twat with his wounded Suzuki told to shape up or ship out. Win :thumbsup:
People have been leaving Commifornia for quite some time. The exodus of people from NYC has accelerated what with fireworks being shot in the streets, burning, looting, etc. Cops hobbled. Suburban real estate is escalating smartly.
I like your idea of a more powerful .32. The 32ACP was originally designed for blowback action pistols. A more powerful .32 might require a locked breach action. As you suggest, if a respected arms manufacturer offered such a pistol with increased magazine capacity, I think it would be a success.
However, if you are just interested in more magazine capacity, you might consider the Savage Model 1907/15/17. It offers a 10 round double stack magazine with a delayed blowback action. The delayed blowback offers a slight increase in muzzle ft/lbs over simple blowback. The slight rim on the .32ACP does not adversely affect feeding reliability in the Savage magazine.
Savage submitted the delayed blowback design in their competition with Colt and Luger for the future U,S. 45ACP army pistol which would become the M1911. They came in second – ahead of Luger.
The Savage is compact, has a good fit in even a large hand and has no screws or pins to lose when disassembled. Savage made several 10s of thousands of them. The magazine release position leaves something to be desired but I hardly think you would need a second magazine in most defense applications.
@Jerry:
Interesting gun! I’m impressed they made double stack work with a semi rim.
I’m a bit more interested in a more modern design of both more compact size and higher capacity. At least a dozen, more better. Then, getting power up from “often works” to “reliable stopper” is also desirable.
@H.R.:
But $112/20= $5.60 a shot, which seems crazy high to me.
@Bloke In Japan:
You might want to just try a bucket of water next time and avoid the potential assault & battery charges…
@Phil & Jim2:
California has been remarkably more peaceful than Seattle, Milwaukee, Chicago, and certainly Portland.
Los(t) Angeles had some looting, but its been fairly quiet since. Don’t think gunfights are coming anytime soon. Yeah, folks are preparing, but then being disciplined enough to not start anything.
It will all depend on what the Antifa / BLM Rioters choose to do. Presently, it looks like their Democrate Handlers are catching clue riots are not helping them.
Box of 50 for $38, so that’s better…
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1000195844
@Bloke in Japan – Good on ya! And same for your neighbors who were obviously righteously PO’d as well, but were waiting on someone else to “do sumpthin”.
Well, you did, and I guess the neighbors figured that they could, at the very least, step up to back you even though they weren’t going to be the first to dive in.
So the neighbors get a little credit, too. They could have just hid out and avoided any conflict, but they stepped up. You might have a few new beer buddies ;o)
People ought to be able to enjoy a little peace and quiet, eh?
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BTW, did the guy get a ticket for violating Section 42. 04.07 of the City Code Being An Asshole After 10:00 pm While Some People Are Trying To Sleep?
@E.M.
Yeah, I did the per cartridge math, but since that round is considered obsolete, I just figured that was a collector price “’cause there ain’t no mo’ not, “Oh yeah, I need to shoot this at the range a bit” price.
$5.00 each for an obsolete odd round doesn’t seem too outrageous to me. There are some other cartridges that bit the dust that someone would like to have 20 or 40 rounds of, regardless of price, That’s just to have the gun and the ammo around should the overwhelming desire to shoot such a rarity overcome them.
And anyhow, there are cartridge collectors who would pay quite a good bit of coin for a single cartridge that they could use to add to their collection. I’m pretty sure that $112 per each would hardly raise an eyebrow on those guys.
Gee, for “only” $478 I can get forming dies to make the cases from .30 carbine cases….
https://www.huntingtons.com/dies_caseform.html
It’s looking like Fiocci occasionally makes some, but then doesn’t for a while. Buffalo is making it and charging a fortune. And generally the market is way thin.
Might be cheaper to do a similar wildcat.
@HR:
I wonder if there is a small craft business opportunity making rare rounds?
Reloading is way easy, so it largely comes down to cases. Dies are the traditional way, but I wonder if modern computerized machining could reduce minimum economic scale to a few hundred rounds…
There’s also 7.65×21, about the same size and power but available at normal pricing and there are guns for it from small pistols to sub-machine guns. 30 Luger, as it’s known. Although when you’ve fired ten shots and not resolved the situation it may be time for another plan..
Good news everyone…
https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2020/08/the_ninth_circuit_issues_a_blockbuster_second_amendment_decision.html
@E.M. – I suppose it’s getting more feasible to make much smaller lots. The Ammo would be pricey, but not make-me-laugh expensive.
The problem I’m seeing is that the rare ammo goes in rare guns and the gun owners don’t want to shoot the guns so their value stays up.
Once the rare-gun owner gets a few boxes of ammo to go with the gun “just in case” they won’t be buying any more.
On the cartridge collector side, they really want a factory original, preferably from the factory that developed the cartridge., but maybe they’d buy a replica of a rare example to fill a hole in the collection.
BTW, Dad was acquainted with a cartridge collector way back when. He had them lined up in cases by caliber, length of cartridge, etc. It was pretty cool. That was many years ago and I haven’t run into another collector since.
When I get a little time, I’m going to search on cartridge collecting. I’m curious how many Clubs or Societies or whatever sort of organizations there are, if any. Maybe I met the World’s only cartridge collector, eh?
@Rhoda:
Part of my muse goal is a small gun on the scale of the .32 ACP guns. This depends on the very small diameter of rounds. The .30 Luger is a necked down 9mm, so your lower bound hun size will be the same as 9mm Parabellum.
I’ve been looking at a case trimmed .30 Carbine as an alternative. Just trim to length, size, and load. A common wildcatter thing to do. Biggest issue would be a shortened .30 carbine case is a different diameter as you cut back into the taper. One would need to figure out what bullet diameter was best / available, then resize the brass to match.
It’s a high pressure case, so nothing to do there. Diameter overall is about right. So shorten it to about 20 mm and drop from 900 ft-lbs to 300 ought to do it. Would need a chamber reamer, and sizing dies, not much more. Typical wildcat stuff.
That, with the skinny case, ought to let you make a double stack magazine, 14 round magazine, compact pistol about the size of the dinky .32 ACP guns, but with performance like .380 guns.
Maybe call it the 8mm Chief ;-)
Cartridge collecting is a thing. It looks like they are after originals though.
To give you an idea, here’s an international Association.
And here’s a guy who collects and facilitates collecting.
https://www.oldammo.com/
Lot’s other links when searching on “cartridge collector” so there’s more interest than I thought. They seem to want factory originals, preferably in the box.
For the past 35 yrs, I have carried an AMT Stainless Steel .380ACP Backup with a fixed 2.5″ barrel. It has been ported and polished and the 5 shot mag has been converted to 6 rounds, giving you 7 rounds total of WW SXT 95gr. X cut JHP. Performance is 192 ft.lbs., 875 fps., 9.5″ penetration in Gelatin with an expansion of approx. .60″. Dead reliable and being SS, it doesn’t rust! It may not be your super cartridge, but having it is better than a hammer!
I keep looking at (now, ‘for’) the KelTec PMR30. Fires .22 Magnum rounds from a 30 count magazine.
Lots of little, deep, holes.
@H.R.:
I’m not hard core about it, but I have a small cartridge collection. Before I’d buy a caliber, I’d buy some ammo. Some, like 30-40 Krag, just out of curiosity. It’s easy and interesting. It also let me do effective show and tell when teaching folks about ammo types.
@Greg Hall:
Sounds about like my dream carry gun. I’m ok with the .32 ACP, and mine are blued, but I really like my Stainless Steel guns better and .380 would be a better more effective gun. I had a SS Colt Mustang (a mini 1911 in 380) but it went to the Son. I bought it for just those reasons and as a 1911 analog.
Unfortunately, it had the one unforgivable sin in a gun. It was prone to occasional failures. Perhaps if shot enough to wear in it would get past it, but IMHO, that is what polishing and testing in manufacture is for, not post purchase. Once a gun convinces me it is unreliable, I can never trust it again.
@Pouncer:
Looks like a fun gun, but it will be loud with a lot of “flash in the night”. Even from rifle barrels, it is a bit “outspoken”… then again, I’m big on quiet efficient rounds. Own very few big rifle round guns or really long rounds.
The media’s extraordinary ability to disappear stories –
https://www.scottadamssays.com/2020/08/16/episode-1094-scott-adams-witches-and-video-three-civil-wars-scheduled-low-information-voters-firenadoes-homeschooling/
majority of US voters don’t know about the attempted Fed Coup to take down Trump. ‘ American Civil Wars brewing ,’ says Scott Adams. Discusses scenario of armed conservatives and there’s a mob and no police … if government doesn’t stop it the citizens likely will. 2nd part of podcast he discusses Home Schooling,
Double stack .380 exists
https://www.budsgunshop.com/product_info.php/products_id/26466
https://www.bangersusa.com/product-list/brand?brandid=BERS&listDisplay=GRID&sort=relevance&productMode=brand&brandId=BERS&attribute%5B1%5D%5B%5D=10&attribute%5B32%5D%5B%5D=15&listSize=100
$400
Bersa Thunder 380 Plus 15+1 .380 ACP 3.5″
Finish Black
Type Semi-Automatic
Action Single/Double
Caliber 380 Automatic Colt Pistol (ACP)
Barrel Length 3.5″
Capacity 15 + 1
Safety Integral Locking System
Grips Black
Sights Fixed
@Ed:
Yeah. Likely the best commercial choice. But almost as big as compact 9mm guns.
The windmill I’m tilting at in this imagining is a double stack with the power of a 380 BUT the very small size of .32 ACP guns. Not available at present, but I think I know how to make one.
The Walther PPK in .32 ACP is the Bond Gun aka 007 and it is known for being very thin, flat and easy to carry concealed. I have a Walther in .32 ACP and love it.
But the .32 ACP is just a bit low powered. But the same gun in 380 is just a bit too fat and heavy.
What I’m musing over is a way to fix the power level, the low magazine capacity, and keep the thin and light features. You can’t do that with 380, nor .32 ACP. It requires something in between.
Thus my looking at 8.x mm diameter brass with a bit longer than the .32 ACP, higher pressure, and no rim. Doing this I think I could make a gun the size of a Walther PPK with a 12 round magazine and at least 380 power. Using modern materials and design, lighter in weight. I think it would be a winner.
So that’s what is driving my pondering.
The sub size guns are too heavy on recoil to be fun to shoot. Not fun to shoot, not enough practice time. The gun needs a minimum amount of weight to counter recoil. Ultra short sight lengths make them inaccurate.
My California wish list includes a 85% scale 1911 in .380. Not on the approved list, so I have to “find” a LEO that has one and wants to sell.
https://www.browning.com/products/firearms/pistols/1911-380/current-production/black-label-1911-380-pro-compact.html
I own a 85% scale .22LR, and it is easily concealed and would be easy to carry. Trigger pull at about 4 lbs is also a winner when cocked and locked. High trigger pulls ruin first shots, which are critical.
High trigger pulls and excessive recoil makes both 1st and 2nd rounds hard to place on target both cleanly and quickly.
@E.M.: Do lyou mean, something like a .32 Magnum, in a steel frame, double stack, semi-auto, 3.5″ barrel?
I’d sure think that would make a dandy James Bond Gun.
Or, approaching it from the other way, a .357 ‘lite’ load? Might only have to change out the recoil spring…
@Ed:
Yes, I’d not want to make it too light! The Walther is all steel, so heavier than it needs to be. My Beretta Tomcat is alloy, so much lighter, but still very comfortable in .32 ACP. I want a weight between the two.
@Steven Fraser:
Basically, yes. Though perhaps just a .32 +P+ depending on what gives about 300 ft-lb. And both a 3.5 PPK like and a 4 inch PP like size.
Sidebar:
Found this interesting thread on reloading the Roth Styer 8mm. The guy does his prototype using .30 carbine dies, so my sense it would be a close analog for a wildcat base has some confirmation.
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums/load-data-for-8mm-roth-steyr-t36779.html
If wildcatting based on the .30 carbine, you could chose the cut off length to match a more common .32 / 8mm bullet and avoid resizing bullets. So probaby a .30 carbine sizing die, custom chamber reamer from a cut down .30 carbine, and .32 ACP barrel to recut the chamber (carefully choosing one with enough meat on it… though perhaps another cartridge would give a better bbl to start from).
I could see doing cartridge development in a Thompson Contender, then transitioning to pistol devo starting from a 380 double stack with bbl blank in .32 (if one exists)… or a bigger .32 gun and later work on the compact version.
I have a slight preference for the idea of using real 8mm bullets / bore and not the .32 / 7.62 mm, but don’t know what all exists to choose from. It looks like the revolver .32s are a real 8mm:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8_mm_caliber
So I’d likely try for that and leverage the .32 magnum revolver bullet design work.
Gee, now all I need is a pro gunsmith who does wildcats and about $10k to pay them 8-|
@Steven:
I see you’ve also jumped to 9mm / .357 diameter.
I don’t know why so many folks do that. I’ve repeatedly said 9mm / 38 is TOO FAT to make the desired thin light gun.
We already have a 9mm giving about 300 ft-lbs. it is the 380 / 9mm corto Kurtz etc. It already exists in double stack high capacity. They end up unpleasant to shoot and fatter than the PPK guns.
My goal is not to reinvent the 380. It is to bridge the (narrow? Perhaps too narrow?) gap between the .32 ACP legendary flat comfortable guns and the 380, capturing the best of both. Power of the 380. Flat light guns of the .32 ACP. Recoil lower than the 380 from lighter 8mm bullets.
Key method being to lose the semi-rim of the .32 so the same width magazine hold a slightly fatter case diameter (but still smaller than 380) and lengthen the case a bit for more powder / pressure.
The 8mm Royh Styer already does all that, and, IMHO, would be fine if you could still buy ammo at a reasonable price. But if you must DIY, an 8mm wildcat based off .30 carbine would be easier to do as it can use common components (.30 carbine brass, cut down, standard bullets).
There are several single stack and revolver 9’s of similar size to some of the discussed guns. I have been examing several in order to consolidate ammo needs with my G19 and Sub2000 9’s.
Some examples.
https://gundigest.com/handguns/concealed-carry/6-hot-micro-9mm-handguns-for-everyday-carry
And another small one at just over 5″ long.
https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/blog/bond-arms-bullpup-9-micro-9mm-pistol/
That PMR30 is nice and light even loaded, but really magnum loud with a big fireball 30x times ;-). Almost 8″ long.
If I were going for a very compact 9mm, I’d choose the Sig p365 with 10+1 capacity in dinky:
https://www.sigsauer.com/products/firearms/pistols/p365/
I think my cartridge musing is just re-inventing the .30 Pederson device round as a +P+
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.65×20mm_Longue
That 7.65 x 20mm French Langue round looks just dandy. I wonder if anyone is currently making something that shoots it?
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My carry is a Kahr CW9. It’s single stack and very thin. It’s not micro, though. 3.5xx” barrel. I didn’t like the micro 9mm guns.
I agree with Ed Forbes above. This one has a slightly different trigger pull; not heavy, but a touch longer than most and then just breaks pretty crisply. And has just enough size that you’re not fighting recoil.
I know you are looking for really small, E.M. and my Kahr is not it.
Caliber: 9mm
3.565″ Barrel
Trigger cocking DAO (double-action only)
7+1 Capacity (or 8+1 with extended magazine)
Overall Length: 5.9″
Height: 4.5″
Width: .90″
Weight: 15.8 oz
Definitely a tad larger than the concept you are going for, though the width of a CW9 isn’t too shabby.
I picked up the .380 derringer for the special situation of the next few months of limited right arm usage. But then after that, I’ll have it around as a true pocket pistol.
Looks like I’m re-inventing what other folks already have done. The Pederdon .30 or this new one:
https://military.wikia.org/wiki/7.92×24mm
Not quite the same as it is a bit longer, and 100 ft-lbs more power, but same idea.
Presently available to military and police.
So, ok, again the idea has some confirmation. Also another potential parent cartridge exists.
@H.R.:
I’m actually happy with my Beretta in .32 ACP. I’m more musing about a way to make a better cartridge / gun. I don’t really have the bucks for a new toy right now anyway. If I thought I needed more rounds, I’d just drop another gun in another pocket :-)
I’ll keep the Khar 9 in mind fod after I’m in Florida and have a CCW 8-)
@E.M. re the Kahr – That suited me at the time and suits me for now. It’s not for everyone. I might switch to something else if I get some mad money.
I very much like the Paul Harrell vids because he makes that point; that individuals need to find their individual solution, even accounting for what you can afford as part of the equation. One size does not fit all. There is no “best” that is best for everyone.
But, yeah, when you get to Florida you might look at the Kahr lineup. Even if only to expand your “what I have personally shot” repertoire. They are made by Thompson of machine gun fame. They do have a smaller single stack 9mm and a .380 and much more in the total line.
I’m guessing that when you make the move and things settle in, you’ll hit the range and maybe (and maybe not) buy something after playing with some of the rentals. Gonna need a gator gun if you’re going to fish the ponds, eh?
From your many posts, comments, and replies to comments it seems clear that you are already in your ‘happy place’ as far as your current collection goes. Florida is much friendlier to the shooting sports and you may just get the bug to get something fun (or two… or three… for even more fun) that you could never have in California.
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OH… almost missed that last bit.
HELL YEAH! You can get a carry permit. That’s going to seem a bit strange (and cool) to you after all those years in The Land Of NO*.
*NO guns, NO ammo, NO 2nd Amendment, unless you’re a criminal, and then none of that applies.
A bit big for the pocket but perhaps useful for household
http://www.loyalistarms.freeservers.com/cannons.htm
As I read the advertisement, the guns are functional but the ammo is for display — or demonstration of what you’d have to make for yourself.
The swivel piece seems intimidating.
@Pouncer:
I’ve been to a reenactor event of the War Between The States. They fire cannon without shot during the reenactions. Reproductions of the period correct guns. It is quite the experience… powder, ramrod, fuse, match / punk and all…. then KA-BOOM!
Re: re-enactments. Yes, I have been to a few. But I doubt they survive this current woke culture. The re-enactors spend thousands of dollars on making sure their uniforms and equipment are 100% accurate. That is Union and Confederacy. Black and white. But woke will kill it. Because if you re-enact a confederate soldier, you are racist and must be destroyed. So the union re-enactors will stop since they will not be able to re-enact with anyone.
Via Knuckledraggin My Life Away here is a rimless .32 from China
The Coolest Gun You Will See All Day: China’s Type 64 Silenced Pistol