Bismuth 12 Ga. Slug

For those who do not know, California has banned the use of Lead in ammunition used for hunting. Why? Supposedly to reduce toxicity in birds eating lead lumps and shot. In reality, more likely IMHO is that the goal was to make it harder to get any ammo to shoot and raise prices.

The result has been a lot of use of Bismuth in shot as the weight is about the same as lead and it is non-toxic. Also it isn’t that expensive. For hunting rounds in rifles, the use of solid copper and related alloys has been common.

Copper is much harder than lead, so many of those hunting rounds now penetrate more soft body armor than the prior rounds. (Note: NO soft body armor is “bullet proof”, each is only rated to stop certain classes of rounds. There is no “bullet proof vest”. There is no “cop killer bullet”, only a necessary energy and hardness to penetrate any given level of vest.)

But what happens with a Bismuth slug?

Well, the Taofledermause folks tested it. Results are fascinating to say the least. Due to increased brittleness, the slug tends to disintegrate on hard targets. BUT it also tends to make a few larger chunks in the process on softer targets. As a result, it penetrated a Level 3 soft body armor test panel that will stop a Foster Slug of lead.

In a block of ballistic gel, it was an amazing effect. Shedding some fragments that stopped in a few inches, while some large chunks traveled the whole length, and the rest formed an expanding cone of destruction in between.

I would not want to be on the wrong end of one of those slugs.

Now, this was an alloy of mostly Bismuth, a bit of Antimony, and some tin (12%) so as to stop the tendency of Bismuth to expand on cooling. That let them use a regular lead casting mold to get a proper sized bullet / slug. I have no idea how much of this peculiar performance comes from that particular alloy, but it will matter to some degree.

Bismuth  - 87.25%
Antimony -  0.75%
Tin      - 12%

An interesting result, to say the least. Attempting to make it a pain to go shooting your shotgun resulting in a spectacular increase in lethality. Leftists – Accidentally increasing lethality for 53 years… (Banning “Saturday Night Specials” moved uninformed shoots / buyers up caliber and up quality into more lethal guns and calibers…)

I’m no longer concerned about the effectiveness of Bismuth in shotgun rounds ;-)

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About E.M.Smith

A technical managerial sort interested in things from Stonehenge to computer science. My present "hot buttons' are the mythology of Climate Change and ancient metrology; but things change...
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38 Responses to Bismuth 12 Ga. Slug

  1. Very Tired says:

    You can legislate against behavior, you cannot legislate,against reality.

  2. Chris Morris says:

    The characteristics of metals can change quite significantly with just a seemingly small change in composition. Each melt is never exactly the same and there can be a lot of trace materials there which affect properties (sulfur makes clean steel near unweldable at 0.03%) And that is a lot of tin. The rate at which it cools can also change properties. They can also age harden or be affected by corrosion and moisture. What all this means is things can be quite variable, even when it is supposed to be the same. What is tested in the lab when new may be quite different for a different melt that is some years old.
    From what you describe, it seems like the metal is now quite brittle. Be interesting to know exactly how old their casting metal was.

  3. H.R. says:

    Saturday Night Specials; I remember the kerfuffle around the legislation at the time.

    They were foreign made. Most of them were highly concealable .25 or .32 caliber semi-autos. Lethality was lower than the replacements, as E.M. pointed out in his post, and there was always the thrill(?) of knowing that the very cheapest ones could just as well blow up in your hand… if they fired at all.

    I was old enough that dad would discuss the issue with me. He was conflicted. He was strong on both gun safety and 2A. He thought that many, but not all, of the Saturday Night Specials were rightfully deemed dangerous to the shooter(!), but he also held the the government had no business restricting any firearm an individual wanted to own.

    He was also strong on personal responsibility and knew that many who bought those guns were irresponsible idiots who couldn’t be trusted with a cap gun.*** Thus his conflict.

    I remember that he finally came down on the side of 2A. a) Idiots gonna be idiots. You can’t legislate idiocy out of people. Idiots will always find a way. 2) Slippery slope. He knew the ban would open the door to more 2A restrictions. He was right on both points, by the way.
    *** Aside – You can’t find or buy cap guns or caps in stores anymore. Heck! Back when, any 5-year old kid could take his allowance and go to the Five & Dime store and buy a cap gun or caps. I know some of my allowance money went to the purchase of a package of caps when we were on a Cowboys and Indians binge. Come to think of it, sometimes a sleeve of caps would be hanging on the Impulse Buy rack in the checkout lanes. I can’t recall when that ended.

  4. Taz says:

    Thank you for this…..

    Now, find me the handloader equivalent for the XM1186, along with a barrel which can handle it in a bolt action.

    A lot of work was done with hypersonics back in the 1950s…but they gave it up because the available powders didn’t really support it. It’s clear the military is past that now. Witness the rapid retrofit of existing artillery equipment with hypersonic rounds.

    Still think they’ll burn up barrels after < 200 uses. Unfortunately, sabots aren't really a solution :(

  5. Taz says:

    A South African company precision machines brass into projectiles using CNC. His daughter took over the 40yr(?) process after her father passed.

    Have no idea what the effective properties of those expensive bullets might be, but now may be a time to find out?

    Have heard that brass projectiles in .50 cal are “interesting”.

  6. Nancy & John Hultquist says:

    To show what a bullet will do to “stuff” our father used Fels Naptha Soap Bars.
    This isn’t scientific except in the psychological sense.
    When car oil came in metal cans, when filled with water, they too were useful in the “wow” factor.

    We also put several bags of lead shot in the trunk of my sister’s car’s trunk, for rear weight.
    A friend of hers wondered it those things were going to explode.

    Those that did not grow up with guns in the family are clueless about such things.
    Most good citizens are also cluless about math, physics, chemistry, and much more.

  7. Ossqss says:

    I knew a man who would wax BB’s together in shotgun birdshot shells. Incredible, like a bomb on impact as it stays together in flight. I peeked at Utube and OMG now they are using hot glue and even Flex Seal on them. Note, it can be dangerous if you don’t do things right. Just sayin,,,,

  8. H.R. says:

    @J & N Hultquist: “Those that did not grow up with guns in the family are clueless about such things. Most good citizens are also clueless about math, physics, chemistry, and much more.”

    Most people are clueless about almost everything except what’s on ABC at 8:00 pm om Thursday night.

    I heard this long ago:
    Little people talk about other people.
    Ordinary people talk about things and events.
    Big people talk about ideas.

    It puzzled me at the time, but most kids I grew up with hated school. Most kids did not have a love of learning and their curiosity level was just high enough to learn about the things needed for day to day living. I loved learning from others, experience, observation, and books. There were others of my peers who were the same, but not that many. It’s a Normal Distribution thing.

    My son barely escaped the serious effort to dumb down the masses kicked in and has only intensified. So now we are stuck with the curve heavily weighted towards “Little” people and “Ordinary” people. I think all those ADHD kids that have been drugged into submission was where a lot of the bright and curious used to come from. The pool of “Big” people has definitely shrunk a lot.

    The GEBs won’t be able to stamp out all the creative and questioning types. There is still some proportion of the population that have the insatiable curiosity gene. The ones we are losing are the ones who had a parents that taught kids how to learn, how to think for themselves, and taught them that learning was important as well as enjoyable. That is teachable to some kids.

  9. philjourdan says:

    No matter how hard you try to hide the crack, water will find it. And Stupid is as Stupid does (nuisance). The truth is that bullets do not kill people. Nor do guns. It is idiots that do. And they do not always use guns (witness Noah Green).

  10. David A says:

    HR says
    ” heard this long ago:
    Little people talk about other people.
    Ordinary people talk about things and events.
    Big people talk about ideas”

    I like it. Here is a very old saying…
    “In shallow minds the fish of little thoughts cause a great commotion. In oceanic minds the whales of inspiration, make hardly a ruffle.”

  11. u.k.(us) says:

    A decent hit with the first round will take most of the fight out of them, then what ??

  12. Pinroot says:

    Hidin’ Biden has announced “six initial actions to address gun violence”, some of these being:

    Countering ‘ghost guns’. The Justice Department is set to issue a proposed rule to help stop the proliferation of ghost guns within 30 days.

    Addressing stabilizing braces. Within 60 days, the Justice Department will issue a proposed rule “to make clear when a device marketed as a stabilizing brace effectively turns a pistol into a short-barreled rifle subject to the requirements of the National Firearms Act.”

    ‘Red flag’ legislation. Red flag laws allow family members or law enforcement to ask for a court order to temporarily prohibit “people in crisis” from accessing firearms if it is judged that they present a danger to themselves or others.

    ‘Evidence-based community violence interventions’. According to the statement, “community violence interventions are proven strategies for reducing gun violence in urban communities through tools other than incarceration”.

    An annual report on firearms trafficking. The Justice Department will release “a new, comprehensive report on firearms trafficking and annual updates necessary to give policymakers the information they need to help address firearms trafficking today.”

    A new head for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms. The president will nominate David Chipman to be the director of the agency.

    I’m not sure how they plan to counter ghost guns. With a decent 3D printer you can make most of the necessary parts yourself, and there are plenty of videos on ECM (electro chemical machining) to make rifled barrels. Red flag legislation is going to be abused by any liberal pissed at someone who owns a gun. “Evidence based community violence interventions” sounds pretty pie-in-the-sky. David Chipman is supposed to be a gun control lobbyist, so I’m sure he’ll be fair and balanced.

    I’m currently collecting everything I can find on DIY guns (and weapons in general) such as videos, pdfs, files for 3D printing, etc. I need to hurry up and get a 3D printer before they find a way to break them so they can’t print gun parts.

  13. E.M.Smith says:


    I’m currently compressing my first pass at a Spin of Devuan that already has i2p and tor router installed along with onionshare. I’ll be putting up a posting pointing to it as a shared item for folks who want to just download and go, along with a recipe for DIY.

    I’ll likely eventually add some of the “soon to be banned” videos to my i2p site (once I figure out how to get a bittorrent link shared… I’ve got it running and I can share those I’ve downloaded, but I was not successful at getting my test file link to be shared, so a bit more work there).

    The intent here is to let anyone with a Raspberry Pi M3 (first pass… other systems later) download the image, add a user other than root, then launch i2p and be good to go.

    Unknown so far is how to assure no “keys” are duplicated yet still get the browser configured so folks don’t have to deal with that. Essentially it’s “everything installed nothing configured” as I’m not sure how to configure it more without potentially having things break on identical identities in the saved image. (yet more work to do…)

    But basically I’m ready for the “Beta Release” of a “distro” intended to be i2p ready and tor friendly as installed. One Bad Thing: I’ve not been able to find a Tor Browser for arm either v7 or v8 / aarch64. Since Firefox exists, the Tor Browser ought not be a problem. Devuan says to just install the tor-browser-launcher but apt doesn’t find it in the repository… So that is still a “To Do” bit.

    The downside is that it is 3.4 GB compressed so will take nearly forever to download via onionshare. That’s with gzip. I’m going to try a couple of other compressors and see if I can get it lower. It was built on an 8 GB uSD chip and fills most of a 7 GB partition. Full desktop and everything… But it’s a start.

  14. Pinroot says:

    @EM – I’m looking forward to checking out your distro, although I’ll probably duplicate what I’ve done on the RPI Zero with my RPi M3+, just because :) I intend to make all of the files I’m collecting available for others, although I’m not sure of how I’ll share them. Torrent, onionshare or just as links you can right click and “save as.” If it’s the later, I’ll need to organize them in some way to make finding what you want easier. As for making your distro available, you could always post it on a file sharing site and let them deal with the bandwidth issues.

    I’m still working on my write-up of setting up i2pd on the RPi Zero. I like writing, but it can be like pulling teeth sometimes, getting motivated and moving forward with it. It’s supposed to rain here this weekend, so maybe I’ll have a little time to work on it.

  15. philjourdan says:

    @Pinroot – all blatantly unconstitutional! But they will take time winding through the courts.

    Note what Biden said about “Being American”. He was 180 degrees off. Being American means you do not convict the innocent due to the crimes of the few.

    He just tried to.

  16. E.M.Smith says:


    I was supposed to have the sample distro “up” already as an Onionshare. It would be slow to download, but private and patience is a virtue ;-O


    After carefully compressing it with gzip and xz I then dropped one into the onionshare window and… was reminded that it ZIP compresses everything itself… DOH! As I watched /tmp fill up…

    So, no worries, just take a disk partition on my real disk, empty it, and mount it as /tmp instead of a tmpfs little thing. BUT in reformatting the partition, forgot to re-apply the partition label, so boot hung on the mount. No worries, just stick the uSD in this other system and edit the fstab.

    Double checked, everything is FINE.

    But when I tried to reboot, I get solid LEDs and NO attempt to boot…

    So now I’m off in “backup, recover, and / or recreate” the system… Backups just finished, so now I’m going to try booting a new uSD with new OS (proof of hardware), then work my way back up (and find where my last backup of this system is stored…)

    Oh Joy… not…

    So I’ve got the system image, but my ‘always on onionshare & i2p server’ isn’t on. Maybe I’ll pour another glass of after dinner wine ;-)


    As the DNC now controls all the voting machines, they will proceed with packing whatever courts are needed (diddling elected judges and diddling elected officials for the appointed ones).

    Given that SCOTUS has run for the hills on any of the Fraud of this election, PotuSino, and kid; it is my opinion somebody has something on the key players there. We’re in a war for America and only one side is taking action.

  17. E.M.Smith says:

    Well, last backup of the Rock64 i2p system was about 5 weeks ago. Since I’m pretty sure I didn’t change anything since then (with the possible exception of updating the copy of this site, which I need to do again anyway) unless it’s a busted copy I’m Golden.

    I’m now happy for all those hours spent watching a dd complete ;-)

    Hopefully it isn’t a hardware issue…

    I have had 3 out of 4 uSD to USB adapters fail over the last decade or so. I’m down to my last one. I’m fairly certain the “couple of corrupted uSD” cards of the last couple of weeks were from the preferred uSD to USB adapter reaching EOL (as no errors happened with the other one…). Seems that they are good for about 2 to 3 years of my use profile before the contacts give out and become dodgy… Unrelated to the present issue, but just a sidebar on why I doubt it is uSD failure. But “we’ll see”. Some of these chips have been in use for a decade… and eventually swap will kill them if nothing else.

    I do try to ‘front’ swap with zram and back it with HDD real partitions on heavily used systems, but that isn’t always possible. For the i2p server I had zram for 1 GB then HDD real swap partitions (figuring the rest of the stuff is pretty static or was on tempfs so using compressed memory).

    So restore of image running as I type and we’ll see if it’s bootable “soon”…

  18. Pingback: Raspberry Pi Model 3 Devuan Beowulf With i2p | Musings from the Chiefio

  19. gallopingcamel says:

    It was my expectation that Leftist violence in our cities would end when the White House was occupied by a Democrat. Since that turned out to be a false hope I have decided to become a gun owner again even though my hand-eye coordination is terrible.

    Here in North Carolina I don’t need a permit to buy a pump action 12 gauge shotgun that will be my primary weapon to repel a “Home Invasion”. While these weapons are inexpensive ($250 to $500) the ammunition is expensive but I plan to buy buckshot and bismuth solid shot as discussed here. This is the kind of weapon one might need if you call 911 and get put on “Hold”.

    If serious civil unrest occurs you will need a rifle so I plan to buy one with a telescopic sight (my eyesight is awful) that uses affordable ammunition, such as 6.52 mm.

    Finally you need a hand gun but I am too feeble to use a 9 mm or a 0.357″ magnum. My choice is a pistol that fires 0.22″ LR ammunition that has magazine with 32 rounds or 50 rounds. You probably won’t kill anyone with such a weapon but you might discourage them. The ammunition is really cheap.

    My personal favorite weapon was the Browning 0.300″ belt fed machine gun that was the “Coaxial” weapon on my Centurion tank. It would keep firing even when the barrel was glowing red! The main weapon was a 25 pounder (aka 85 mm) that could fire an APDS (anti-tank) round at 5,400 feet per second. The point blank range (no aiming correction required) was 3,000 feet.

  20. E.M.Smith says:


    I don’t think you’ll need the tank… But I could be wrong ;-)

    FWIW, I have target bird shot for my 12 Ga. Why? Couple of reasons.

    1) At anything approaching inside the house distances, the shot arrives as a very solid clump. It doesn’t start to spread out until well past 20 feet.

    2) It WILL tend to be stopped by a couple of walls. (Not the first one though…) so the risk of over penetration is reduced. Buck and Slug loads will keep on going through a few walls and I don’t want that.

    3) It is A LOT cheaper. Sold by the crate where slugs & buck are sold in 5 packs.

    4) It is significantly easier on the shoulder. Doing a box of magnums or buck or slugs really kicks more than “dove loads”.cartriges

    5) You can always feed a couple of buck or slug rounds in the bottom if the first few bird shot didn’t deal with the problem…

    6) Buck & Slugs without a deer hunting licence or history is “premeditation”. Anyone can shoot targets, so that’s just “all I had”… You must win the post shoot legal battle too.


    Note that “Turkey Loads” are a nice half way point between dove / target loads and small buckshot. Shot is just a little smaller than small buck…


    My rifle of choice is a Marlin Lever action in .357 Mag. with scope. It avoids the gun grabber “features” while still letting you do ‘walking reloads” (i.e. you can stuff more in the loading gate any time you want. Your pocket or shoulder pouch is your magazine capacity, effectively. It also comes in .44 Magnum but I don’t see the need. at 100 yards I put all the rounds inside the target rings for the DCM qualification…

    I’d point out that anyone NOT inside your property line is not a target. It’s a lawsuit. Unless you live on a 1000 acre ranch, all shots will be at ranges of 100 feet or less. Beyond that they are “not a threat” in the legal sense. (IF we end up with street armies with long range rifles taking them on is not the right thing anyway, you need to cut / run or duck & cover…)


    The .22 LR is lethal with proper bullet placement. I think the massive magazines are banned in most places (or will be soon).

    I did an article where I looked at barrel length vs powder efficiency and the conclusion was that long cartridges in short barrels didn’t work well. Shorter fatter rounds are better in short barreled pistols.

    I’d get a .38 ACP / Corto / Kurtz / 9mm Short rather than a .22 LR if the barrel is under 9 inches long. Recoil is near nothing. OTOH, a big heavy pistol doesn’t kick even with bigger rounds. So the question is “Pocket or Night Stand?” I use a .32 ACP for pocket bump in the night in the yard… BUT have a nice big stainless steel revolver in .357 Magnum that also shoots .38 Specials and they are essentially no kick at all in that gun. 7 inch heavy barrel dampens it a lot.

    Gun and round both change felt recoil. My relatively heavy Ruger Mk II .22 pistol with long barrel is essentially no recoil. A little Freedom Arms mini-revolver about the size of my Thumb is uncomfortable to shoot with the same hot .22 LR rounds ( 1.x inch barrel so LOTS of flash and bang / noise, velocity not so much….)

  21. H.R. says:

    E.M. : “I did an article where I looked at barrel length vs powder efficiency and the conclusion was that long cartridges in short barrels didn’t work well. Shorter fatter rounds are better in short barreled pistols.”

    That was a really good post (2 posts on the subject?) regarding matching ammo with barrel length.

    From that discussion, I mentioned at the time that I was going go with a .380, 2-bbl derringer for my carry nug** since one arm and hand would be out of commission for several weeks. I’m recovered now and the derringer is no longer needed. I did make a custom fitted wooden case for it. The case holds the nug,*** a cleaning kit, patches, and 1 50-rd box of ammo. I showed the case to Ossqss when I visited with him. It’s very nice, except the inside of the case needs flocking.

    I’m with you on the .357/.38 Special gate-loading lever-action rifle, and .357/.38 Special revolver, though I only have a 6″ barrel. Good combo and recoil is just not an issue.
    ***Nug – There was a M*A*S*H episode where they wanted’ a howitzer or something big as a deterrent. The unit was being attacked and it was supposed to be intimidating to discourage the sniping.

    The supply officer who showed up was totally clueless about everything except having the right forms, filled out correctly.

    There was a typo or something on the request form, and as the supply guy was reading the request aloud, he reads exactly the typo, ‘Nug’ for ‘Gun’. It was a very funny bit. Memorable, obviously, and some others here might recall that episode.

    Anyhow, it might be sensible to start referring to ‘nugs’ from now on. I don’t think the Big Brother algorithms are set to pick up that typo. (Oopsie! Maybe they are, now that I’ve pointed it out.)

  22. E.M.Smith says:

    For a while when Gargoyle first started being Authoritarian about “nugs” on Eewtube the Taofledermause folks, in order to keep monetized and running, would refer to their place of operation (wide open for 10 miles…) as An Official Range and their “nugs” as “mass accelerators”…. (the rule then was ANY guns had to be at an Official Range. As one of the TFM folks is an Official Police Officer I guess he could declare their dirt an official range.)

    I’m a bit fond o the therm “Macro Particle Accelerator” myself ;-)

    Then again, “chemical mass driver” has a nice ring to it…

  23. Ossqss says:

    @HR, that case was really nice. Made well and solid. I would like to request one for each of my firearms. What is the backlog :-)

    On another note. I mentioned a while back I was consolidating ammo and compatibility with such. Example is my G19 is fully mag compatible with my Sub-2000. Everything works in each other. Side note, I watched some Utubes on the Sub-2000 (9mm) targeting ballistic gel at 440 yards. It was quite amazing considering it was a 9 at that distance. Yes, substantial aim compensation was required, but it did the job fully (lethal) at that distance.

    The next step is obtaining a compatible .45 ACP carbine for the G30s and its mags. Just Right Carbines has a nice unit, you just can’t find them anywhere now days. There are other options that are way more expensive, but the Hi Point units are dirt cheap comparatively, but lacks mag compatibility.

    I did get wind from someone at Keltec something may be in the works, so I may just wait it out.

  24. H.R. says:

    @Ossqss – Hey, since I’m down for 6 months next season, maybe I can bring a couple of cases, handles, hardware, and the wood pieces I use to fit the contents. I have that stuff lying around.

    The only thing I didn’t like is the stained wood interior. I want to get a flocking kit and some blue or red or poker table green flocking material. I like the felt lining look that the flocking gives.

    Say the word and we can probably fit up a couple of nugs 😜 in an afternoon or evening.
    I really liked that Sub-2000 and your magazine compatibility system. It seems to me you are all set. Now all you need to do is buy a couple of magazines and boxes of ammo each week, load them up and then store them in air and waterproof containers. Soon enough you’ll have enough ready to go magazines that you will never have to load in an EOTWAWKI situation. 😎

  25. gallopingcamel says:

    That all makes sense. I will forget about the rifle since it implies a total breakdown of society that will be way beyond my ability to resist.

    I will concentrate on repelling attacks at short range so bird shot should be sufficient but I will buy small quantities of more lethal 12 gauge ammo for unlikely situations.

    The 0.22″ LR pistol I like has a 9″ barrel. If I still like this weapon after using it for target practice, I plan to buy a variety of magazines before the larger ones are made illegal in this state.

    It might make sense to have a second compact hand gun instead of the rifle. However I plan to take a training course with target practice before buying anything.

    Should one consider buying military grade composite body armor?

  26. YMMV says:

    gallopingcamel: “It was my expectation that Leftist violence in our cities would end when the White House was occupied by a Democrat.”

    I don’t think the end goal was an old white guy in the WH, nor just any other Democrat. The power is still with the rich GEB jet-set. BLM, Antifa, Anonymous, and other movements of the moment are just on pause. Also, the more they get, the more they want.

  27. E.M.Smith says:


    A nice level 3A vest is a good thing to have (yet I don’t have one…) along with a decent helmet (that I do have) as the Antifa goons like to whack folks on the head or shiv them in the back. So I have my “puncture resistant” motorcycle coat and helmet but have not bothered with a bullet protective vest (yet…).

    It all depends on what you expect to defend against.

    As I’m looking at “site defense” in a very upscale suburban area, with ZERO activity through this whole last year mess: I’m just defending against a single or very few nutbars deciding to break into a house. I.E. any gun is enough gun.

    Were I in Portland near down town, I’d have full body armor for the whole family and loaded guns behind every door in the house and a pistol in the pocket.

    FWIW, in my drive across the South: I saw zero evidence of any troubles. From rural California to Urban Florida and all points in between, it was just Normal America.

    Near as I can tell, the ONLY places where there’s “An Issue” are the hard Blue Democrat Urban Core areas of Democrat controlled cities UP NORTH. New York. Seattle. Boston. Portland Oregon, Minneapolis,…

    So my strategy is simpler and cheaper: Just do not go to a Democrat run City. Simply don’t go to where the rot is. I’m 50 miles from San Francisco and Oakland, yet we have nothing happening. I just don’t go to SF or Oak anymore. No need and no reason to go. IF trouble ever gets here, Salinas is a very nice town with No Bad Thing and about 40 miles? further south. Nice farm town with conservative values. Easy ‘get in the car and go’ distance.

    In Polk County Florida, the Sheriff announced in a news conference that his county was full of Citizens who were armed, and that HE expected them to use those guns to defend themselves. That folks looking for trouble ought not come to Polk County… That if they broke in through someones front door he expected his Citizens to blow them back out again… Guess who didn’t have riots?…

    Choose your place of battle and chose your victory. Be where your opponent is not.

  28. H.R. says:

    @E.M. – My sister lives in Polk County, Florida.

    She really, really likes the Sheriff and it seems he is also well liked by most of the residents of the county. He stands a good chance of being re-elected as many times as he wants.

  29. Ossqss says:


  30. E.M.Smith says:

    When I was living in Florida a couple of years back I was in Polk County. Guess what County I’m moving to as soon as I can make it happen… And I’m voting for that Sheriff forever…

  31. H.R. says:

    E.M.: “And I’m voting for that Sheriff forever…”

    Yup. I think the sheriff has tapped into the 80% MAGA Joe 6-Pack and not the 20% of Democrat wienies that screech and whine and squeal the loudest.

    Not only is he politically aware of which side the bread is buttered on, but I think he actually believes and holds the same position as the 80% MAGA, which is the bulk of the U.S.

  32. philjourdan says:

    Interesting side-bar to H.R.’s comment. We have a governor election this year (one of 2 states that do, the other being NJ). And we have a large Republican (and democrat – governors cannot succeed themselves) field. 2 of the Republican candidates are Millionaire businessmen. And to hear them campaign, they are the re-incarnation of Trump.

    But the Internet is forever. And both trashed Trump bigly while Trump resided at the White house (in my estimation, he is still president). Neither will get my vote. When it comes right down to it, I am going with State Senator Amanda Chase. She was with EMS at the Jan 6 rally (not the breaking and entering). And for just being there, the democrat led State Senate censured her. That was her only crime. Being at the rally.

    She has my vote.

  33. E.M.Smith says:


    Given that an extra 1/2 million signatures were turned in, California ought to also be having an election for Governor… to remove one… 8-)

  34. philjourdan says:

    Gray was a one off. There is no Arnie pretend to be a republican Candidate this time. You are stuck with the creep

  35. Gallopingcamel says:

    While things are “Normal” where I live, there have been incidents in Raleigh, Durham and Greensboro. No doubt in Charlotte too but that is over two hours driving from where I live.

    On a related theme, have you anything new to say on food that can be stored for long periods without refrigeration?

  36. H.R. says:

    @Gallopingcamel: Howdy! No more Marmite dumps, or I’d send you whatever they had on the shelves. The prices here in the U.S. are nuckin’ futz! The dump-it price I got was more than reasonable for either side of the pond.

    I have two pantries. One is mostly current stuff that will be consumed within the few months.

    The other pantry has 12″ deep wire shelving and I happened to find a labeling kit for that specific wire shelving. I labeled the shelves 2021, 2022, 2023, 2024, and 2025.

    Besides beans and rice, I have done some stock-up of canned goods of meats, dinners, soups, and boxed whatnots and stored them on the shelves marked by “Best By” dates.

    At the moment, I am up to having a shelf with “Bets By” date of 2025, and there are a lot of canned meats with that date.

    So I shop and buy what I may be fixing for today, tomorrow, this week, or next week. I snag any marked down long-dated canned or packaged goods to stash in the pantry.

    What I have not bought… yet… are any sealed pails of 25-year dated meals.

    🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 I’m reluctant to buy 25-year dated stuff because statistically, I don’t have quite 25 years left. So no point in buying that stuff for the scavengers to find in the ruins of my house, eh?

    We’ve connected, and I know you are several years older than I am, so I’d advise stocking up on some of the longest dated canned goods you run across each week, or however frequently you shop and yes! buy some of those 25-year tubs of breakfast-lunch-dinner meals.

    You’re a very smart dude. Think about the actuarial odds for you and the Mrs., and buy accordingly each week for your stash.

    I’m weighting my stash heaviest towards 1-4 years best-by dates because there’s more tasty stuff I can buy that’s just normal, long-dated stuff and I can often get it at clearance prices. But I’m at the low end of ‘geezer’, so I’ll probably start adding in the 25-year dated buckets to have on hand if things get really rough.

    And I’ve been gardening. I don’t have much of a plot, but it is an great source of supplementary food `that takes the pressure off of my canned goods.

    You’re smart (and tough!), GC. Think it through. You’ll be fine for your remaining years.

  37. E.M.Smith says:


    Nothing really new to add. It’s all under the prepper tag somewhere:

    The basics have not really changed in 100 years.

    Dehydrated stuff in moisture proof packaging. High levels of salt or sugar preserve. (Or fats, see pemmican and confit). Heat sterilized in sealed containers also preserves (canning / foil retorts). Freezing preserves anything that it does not destroy (i.e. don’t freeze eggs… )

    The short form of “building a year supply” says to just buy 2 x what you regularly use and set 1/2 aside. Do that for a few months as you get into more exotic stuff. In short order you will have several months of canned goods and “stuff in boxes” that you like to eat.

    THE big mistake, IMHO, is buying a huge “supply” of “special” storage foods that you later find out you don’t like or can’t prepare. Things like 20 cans of wheat kernels… got a mill? Like bread with over the top fiber? (Most ‘whole wheat’ bread in stores is only 1/2 whole wheat…)

    I use 1/2 gallon glass jars to store beans, rice, noodles, sugar, salt, flour, all dry goods really. 1/2 gallon tubs have worked for up to 2 years. (Mine were free via Ice Cream ;-) so if you like Ice Cream, buy, eat, wash, dry, store…)

    So next step after just “buy 2 x the dry and canned goods” is “get rodent and water proof containers and buy a big bag each of: Beans, Rice, Flour, Sugar, Salt”. Think you don’t need the salt? Or sugar? They are for PRESERVATION of foods in an EOTWAWKI and the salt can scrub teeth… Put in containers and store.

    At this point you ought to have about 3 months of canned vegetables, meats, and meals (think Chef Boyardee.. or Dinty More Stew – whatever you like) along with Jams, jellies, preserves, peanut butter or other nut-butter you like. And another 3 months of flour, beans, rice, etc. in jars. Also “dry boxed” like Betty Crocker scalloped potatoes and / or Kraft Mac ‘N Cheese. Note that they want butter and milk to make them. CANNED milk or dry milk work fine for that and a tub of Palm Oil Shortening or (IMHO better yet) Coconut Oil work fine as substitutes. Note that if you like sweet tea with milk in it: Teabags in a foil pouch or stored in jars keeps for years. Canned SWEETENED CONDENSED milk will keep nearly forever and works fine for sweetening several days of tea per can.

    I stored mine as “meals of each”. So 1 box Mac N Cheese with 1 can tuna and one can peas with can of milk. Makes a nice tuna noodle casserole. (only 1/2 can of peas, or make 2 boxes of noodles). Similarly a 1 lb DAX canned ham, can of yams, can of green beans. Another favorite meal. 1 Can SPAM with 2 boxes of Scalloped Potato mix, can of milk. Dice SPAM into spuds…

    Breakfasts are easy if you like oats. COSTCO sells some giant box with 54? packages of oats w/ flavoring. I had 2 for breakfast this morning. 1 Cup water, boiling, over 2 packages = full bowl. I add a pat of butter too ;-) So one box is a month of breakfasts. Similarly dry cereal keeps for months in boxes (or years in rodent / bug proof glass containers).

    Now, once that’s all out of the way, you can get into the “funny stuff” like $12 each “Camping Meals” and 25 year buckets of stuff you don’t really want to eat…

    Oh, one other note: Increasingly regular grocery store food is in foil pouches. Knorr makes a bunch of nice “sides” that are basically flavored noodle and rice meals. Wants milk and sometimes butter in the making, so a flat of canned milk or box of dry milk and big tub of coconut oil fixes that refrigeration issue. Similarly Mahatma brand “yellow rice” keeps forever. I put it in the rice cooker with chicken chunks and sometimes peas as a meal. Instead, use canned chicken and you have a storage meal…

    Oh, and make sure you do vitamins and condiments. A year of multivitamins is worth a LOT in hard times, and a couple each of Mayo, Mustard, Ketsup & BBQ Sauce (or taco sauce) can work wonders. All those beans will really want some kind of flavor added. Dried onions (Costco seasoning section) and salt only go so far… Mayo doesn’t keep more than about a year, so don’t store too much. Ketchup and BBQ sauce (and dried onions / garlic / bouillon seem infinite lived…)

    Any particulars you are interested in?

    Maybe the ultra short form is:

    Look in the fridge and freezer at what you eat that needs a fridge or freezer. Find it dried (Jerky, dry milk), canned (SPAM, Ham, canned milk), or boxed (Mac & Cheese) and buy that for the shelf. Canned vegetables instead of frozen or refrigerated. Freeze Dried from camping or “survival” food places. All the regular canned or dry / boxed stuff you eat, just buy more of it.

  38. gallopingcamel says:

    H.R. & Chiefio,
    Thanks for that. This time I am going to do it!
    I will get some of the 25 year stuff since I expect one of my sons to take over this house so it won’t matter if I don’t get to eat any of it.
    IMHO this country won’t last another 20 years in its present form. It is going to disintegrate just like Soviet Russia and for essentially the same reasons.

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