Folks who have been here a while will be very familiar with O. Manuel. He often pops up putting a comment about nuclear history with conspiratorial overtones to it on completely unrelated threads (though lately has been much more reserved about that and staying near or on topic for a thread – thanks!)
On another posting (about floods in California), he put up a comment:
22 July 2015 at 3:17 am
Thanks to Climategate emails and the damning official responses, the Sun’s pulsar core is gaining traction:
Clicking through some links on it, I found another posting that claimed similar evidence for an Iron Sun
The first thing of interest was that “160 minute” oscillation of the Sun. A rather big thing that I’d never heard of before. The damn thing is ringing at 160 minutes period and nobody thinks that matters? Sheesh.
The article links to the wiki a few times, so here’s that link too:
The malagabay link is fairly interesting and basically makes the point that the sun might well have a dense rocky pulsar core hiding under the gassy outer layer. There are then a bunch of images purporting to be photos of that rocky surface using a “running difference” method that is not explained (a small “Dig Here!” for me to learn if that is just First Differences by another name, or something else altogether.) No real numbers given for how far down that “surface” was supposed to be, but the text implied not very far otherwise it wold be impossible to detect it.
They also have a chart toward the bottom purporting to show that the solar mean radius of the rocky part can be calculated by this 160 minute period of rotation and some kind of relationship of diameter to it… I think… maybe… (It isn’t exactly well explained and seems to presume you have already bought in to some relationship that is implied).
One of the reasons the “the mainstream scientific establishment had moved on” is because Kepler’s Third Law of Planetary Motion provides a formula that can be used to calculate the planetary [rocky] radius of the Sun based upon the assumption that the solar oscillation period of 160 minutes is the solar rotation period that is driving the rotation of the Solar System.
[ nice charts of data left out – hit the link…]
In astronomy, Kepler’s laws of planetary motion are three scientific laws describing the motion of planets around the Sun.
1. The orbit of a planet is an ellipse with the Sun at one of the two foci.
2. A line segment joining a planet and the Sun sweeps out equal areas during equal intervals of time.
3. The square of the orbital period of a planet is proportional to the cube of the semi-major axis of its orbit.
That’s where MalagaBay tends to lose my interest. Makes leaps that are somehow supposed to be obvious, and often with some work you can figure them out, but sometimes they don’t seem to connect right… so I often spend time elsewhere even though it looks interesting…
In that style, I looked elsewhere.
Folks are free to look at that chain of logic from oscillation to rotation to diameter and report back if they find something fishy in it, or not. I have other fish to fry right now.
But I did get to wondering:
This basic tussle is over the question of Hydrogen Sun as a gas giant vs Iron Sun as a rocky core with envelope of gas. If the Sun had an “iron surface” close enough to the top to be observed, then ought not most of the Sun be that rocky iron rich material? If so, then the basic density of the Sun ought to reflect that.
Basically, put it in a big bath tub and if it floats, it’s gassy, if it sinks, it’s an Iron Sun.
Mean Density of the Planets and the Sun Rank Name Density (kg pr. cubic meter) 1 Earth 5515 2 Mercury 5427 3 Venus 5243 4 Mars 3933 5 Moon 3350 6 Pluto 1750 7 Neptune 1638 8 Sun 1408 9 Jupiter 1326 10 Uranus 1270 11 Saturn 687 Source: NASA
When I look at that, the mean density of Sun is rather like that of Neptune and Jupiter – Gas Giants. Rather far away from that of The Earth – an Iron Core planet.
The Earth is almost 4 times as dense. (3.917)
Whenever you see a word from statistics, it is important to cringe and swear at it. It means something is being hidden. Now that isn’t a bad thing all the time. We want to hide some of the trees so we can see the forest… But always ask “What does this obscure while shining the light off to stage right?”
In this case, it is the word “mean” in the “Mean Density”. That means average, and averages always hide the trees while illuminating a nice forest “over there”…
What his particular mean hides is that the average of a very low density gas layer with a very dense iron center can still be low density on average. So that raises the question: “What size must the iron core be to pass as, on average, a heavy gas giant?”
That’s a bit harder to figure than I’d like as you can’t just use the regular Specific Gravity kind of calculations on things as big as the Sun where pressures can crush atoms together. It gets worse with neutron stars where even atomic nuclei are crushed. But you can get a good guess out of it.
A single cc of water weighs 1 gram. A litre of water is 1000 cc and weighs 1000 grams. Iron is about 7.87 times that dense. Gasses vary greatly depending on pressure. Hydrogen at standard Earth pressure is 1/1000th that much, but rapidly gets more dense when compressed.
Now a cubic meter of water is 100 x 100 x 100 cm or 1,000,000 cc or 1,000 kg or 1,000 litres. That makes the Sun average specific gravity to be about 1.4 while the Earth is about 5.5 sp.gr. As we have a load of silicates over our iron core, that makes sense. Quartz is about 2.65 sp. gr. as an example. So average a crust and mantle made with a lot of 2.65 in with a core of 7.87 and you get an average of 5.5 (from that chart above turning 5.5 metric tons/cubic-meter into grams/cc)
And that is where I’m running into a problem with the Iron Sun pages. The text implies that the “surface” is subject to imaging just a little ways down through the gassy layer on the outer edge of it all. Yet the density says that there must be a LOT of gassy layer and not too big an Iron Sun Core for that density to work out at 1.4 (again from the chart, turning 1,400 kg / meter^3 into grams/cc)
1,400 kg is 1,400,000 grams. 100 x 100 x 100 cm is 1,000,000 cc. 1,400,000/1,000,000 = 1.4 grams / cc.
That’s only 40% more dense than water. The Sun would sink in our hypothetical bathtub, but not very fast… That’s about as dense as PVC plastic used in plastic pipes.
Specific gravity (density) – PVC
The true specific gravity of PVC is about 1.4, which is comparatively heavy among plastics, as is the case for PET. This can be a disadvantage…
Search domain http://www.pvc.orgpvc.org/en/p/specific-gravity-density
Clicking the link got “no data” so I just pasted in the search return image…
So I have to wonder: Is it an Iron Sun, or more accurately a Plastic Sun?
In reality, it will be layered in density shells. Everything else is. I don’t buy the notion that the Sun is a homogeneous mass of undifferentiated type. Density layering is a fairly uniform effect. Even our ocean has more dense layers at the bottom (colder and saline). But the mean density says that the Iron Sun portion must be fairly small. Then the Silicate and Carbon layers can be significantly large. Finally, the gassy layer can be quite large as well (though by that point the size is speculative depending on density and compression assumptions and assumptions of how much silicon and carbon are in layers).
At this point all I can do is leave you with questions.
How big can a hypothetical Iron Sun Core be before the density doesn’t work out?
How much might the Sun be a star made of Carbon (Diamond Sun anyone?) and / or Silicon?
Given the compression and densities, and the solubility of Hydrogen into all sorts of things, how much Hydrogen might be in those other layers, and how big could an outer gassy layer be? Does it “work” if that layer is thin enough to “see” through with a running differences image? Do those pictures really show an Iron Surface, or a Carbon one? Or perhaps gas compressed to the point of acting like fudge?
I don’t have the data to figure out those answers, and I have other things I must do today. But think of it as food for thought.
Folks wishing to talk about the Iron Sun, a Pulsar Core, a primordial Supernova right here in River City, this is the time and place to do it. Especially if that density issue can be resolved.