H.R. had a comment here:
about a 9,500 year old ( so about 7,500 B.C. ) city found of the coast of India. So h/t H.R.!
I have no idea why, but it ended up in the SPAM queue and I just fished it out this morning. In it, he links to a fascinating article about a City ( like 5 mile long city, not some group of huts called a city…) found about 120 feet ( 36 m) under the water off the coast of India up near Pakistan; roughly where the Indus Valley Civilization was in the past.
The Indus Valley Civilisation (IVC), or Harappan Civilisation, was a Bronze Age civilisation (3300–1300 BCE; mature period 2600–1900 BCE) mainly in the northwestern regions of South Asia, extending from what today is northeast Afghanistan to Pakistan and northwest India. Along with Ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia, it was one of three early cradles of civilisations of the Old World, and of the three, the most widespread.
The implication being that the Indus Valley Civilization was not the start, but the rump of a civilization 4000 years older that was lost to the Great Flood as the Glacial melt happened.
The date also lends credence to all the Vedic stories of a great civilization roughly 10,000 years old. The “lore” is that the Vedic writings are passed down unchanged from a very distant past and were preserved all these years by a dedicated reverence for the history. Of course, “modern” historians like to claim that’s crap ’cause they all know history started with the Egyptians about 4000 B.C. and before that we all ran naked around Africa poking things with sticks… Since humans have been just as intelligent and capable since their inception as they are now, I find that hard to believe. (Just why would we spend 200,000 years or 400,000 years for the Neanderthals doing exactly the same thing, and then all of a sudden pop up pyramids, create complete writing systems, and make ocean going boats all in a few hundred years?)
This find now pretty much sinks that Only Egypt as the start of “civilization” idea.
9,500-Year-Old City Found
Underwater Off India
Discovery in Bay of Cambay Will Force
Western Archaeologists to Rewrite History
The civilization of Ancient Egypt occurred in a past so remote that today it seems mystical. The pyramids and other temples, with their hieroglyphics depicting a flourishing civilization, have a mysterious, almost magical appeal. It seems inconceivable that people of an advanced society could have walked those ancient streets.
Now, it was announced in January, a civilization has been uncovered that would have appeared just as ancient to the people who built the pyramids as the pyramids seem to us.
According to marine scientists in India, archaeological remains of this lost city have been discovered 36 metres (120 feet) underwater in the Gulf of Cambay off the western coast of India. And carbon dating says that they are 9,500 years old.
This news completely contradicts the position of most Western historians and archaeologists, who (because it did not fit their theories) have always rejected, ignored, or suppressed evidence of an older view of mankind’s existence on planet Earth. Human civilization is now provably much more ancient than many have believed.
According to the BBC’s Tom Housden, reporting on the Cambay find:
The vast city — which is five miles long and two miles wide — is believed to predate the oldest known remains in the subcontinent by more than 5,000 years.
The site was discovered by chance last year by oceanographers from India’s National Institute of Ocean Technology, who were conducting a survey of pollution.
Using sidescan sonar, which sends a beam of sound waves down to the bottom of the ocean, they identified huge geometrical structures at a depth of 120 feet.
Debris recovered from the site — including construction material, pottery, sections of walls, beads, sculpture, and human bones and teeth — has been carbon dated and found to be nearly 9,500 years old (BBC article).
Several reports confirm this estimate. Housden added, “The whole model of the origins of civilisation will have to be remade from scratch.”
Now I have trouble calling 5 miles “Vast”… but that bit of hyperbole aside, it’s a BIG city for the time. These are not all farmers walking several miles to get to their fields, nor are they hunters walking a dozen miles to go poke lunch with a stick. Something else is going on.
Linda Moulton Howe, who investigates occurrences of this type worldwide, interviewed Michael Cremo about this new discovery. Cremo is a researcher and author of the book Forbidden Archaeology. Cremo, Howe said, has visited India and attended local meetings about the Cambay site.
“Within the past few months,” Cremo told her, “the engineers began some dredging operations there and they pulled up human fossil bones, fossil wood, stone tools, pieces of pottery, and many other things that indicated that it indeed was a human habitation site that they had. And they were able to do more intensive sonar work there and were able to identify more structures. They appeared to have been laid out on the bank of a river that had been flowing from the Indian subcontinent out into that area.”
Many times I’ve said you will find the earliest cities and civilization where big rivers meet the oceans, and under water at a distance that matches their age. The oldest likely to be about 400 feet down.
So 120 feet is about 40 meters. Which is about 9500 years ago on this graph… Want to find an older city? Follow that ancient riverbed out to 120 meters ( 360 to 400 feet ) depth, then dig.
Note, too, these folks were already making pottery. That’s a craft / industrial process. They are located on the intersection of land, river, and sea. Cities form there as those are major intersections of different transportation systems so become trade centers. Metals are unlikely to have survived that long underwater, but wood can. An examination of the pottery and wood might indicate what kind of tooling was used to make it / them. Then we have the riverside / ocean bay location. This STRONGLY argues for some kind of boats, fishing, and trade. A transportation system based on water.
Though really, dredging? For an archaeological site? It really isn’t all that hard to SCUBA dive to 120 feet. We need to field a team of underwater Real Archaeologists ™ to do a proper examination of the site.
The refereced BBC article is here:
From 2002, so not exactly a new story.
Saturday, 19 January, 2002, 06:33 GMT
Lost city ‘could rewrite history’
But I just LOVE this attempted dodge of how old the place is:
This, Mr Hancock told BBC News Online, could have massive repercussions for our view of the ancient world.
“There’s a huge chronological problem in this discovery. It means that the whole model of the origins of civilisation with which archaeologists have been working will have to be remade from scratch,” he said.
However, archaeologist Justin Morris from the British Museum said more work would need to be undertaken before the site could be categorically said to belong to a 9,000 year old civilisation.
“Culturally speaking, in that part of the world there were no civilisations prior to about 2,500 BC. What’s happening before then mainly consisted of small, village settlements,” he told BBC News Online.
Yeah, right. Folks frequently built cities underwater…
It is absolutely certain it is that old, otherwise they had to be building underwater. It is absolutely certain it is a city, as you don’t get stone built villages of 5 miles in length without some kind of civilization, trade, and technology. Hunter gatherers and farmers all spread out, of necessity.
But go ahead. Defend your failed paradigm of human history. Let some young new student be the one to rewrite history and replace your work with a footnote saying “Prior to this, the silly notion that society was only 5000 years old was commonly held, but ignorance is like that.”
Arrogance is so damned hard to get past for some folks. They need to learn the mantra:
“It isn’t about ME, and it isn’t about YOU. Reality Just Is!. -E.M.Smith”