9500 Year Old City Underwater Off Indian Coast

H.R. had a comment here:
about a 9,500 year old ( so about 7,500 B.C. ) city found of the coast of India. So h/t H.R.!

I have no idea why, but it ended up in the SPAM queue and I just fished it out this morning. In it, he links to a fascinating article about a City ( like 5 mile long city, not some group of huts called a city…) found about 120 feet ( 36 m) under the water off the coast of India up near Pakistan; roughly where the Indus Valley Civilization was in the past.


The Indus Valley Civilisation (IVC), or Harappan Civilisation, was a Bronze Age civilisation (3300–1300 BCE; mature period 2600–1900 BCE) mainly in the northwestern regions of South Asia, extending from what today is northeast Afghanistan to Pakistan and northwest India. Along with Ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia, it was one of three early cradles of civilisations of the Old World, and of the three, the most widespread.

The implication being that the Indus Valley Civilization was not the start, but the rump of a civilization 4000 years older that was lost to the Great Flood as the Glacial melt happened.

The date also lends credence to all the Vedic stories of a great civilization roughly 10,000 years old. The “lore” is that the Vedic writings are passed down unchanged from a very distant past and were preserved all these years by a dedicated reverence for the history. Of course, “modern” historians like to claim that’s crap ’cause they all know history started with the Egyptians about 4000 B.C. and before that we all ran naked around Africa poking things with sticks… Since humans have been just as intelligent and capable since their inception as they are now, I find that hard to believe. (Just why would we spend 200,000 years or 400,000 years for the Neanderthals doing exactly the same thing, and then all of a sudden pop up pyramids, create complete writing systems, and make ocean going boats all in a few hundred years?)

This find now pretty much sinks that Only Egypt as the start of “civilization” idea.


9,500-Year-Old City Found
Underwater Off India

Discovery in Bay of Cambay Will Force
Western Archaeologists to Rewrite History

The civilization of Ancient Egypt occurred in a past so remote that today it seems mystical. The pyramids and other temples, with their hieroglyphics depicting a flourishing civilization, have a mysterious, almost magical appeal. It seems inconceivable that people of an advanced society could have walked those ancient streets.

Now, it was announced in January, a civilization has been uncovered that would have appeared just as ancient to the people who built the pyramids as the pyramids seem to us.

According to marine scientists in India, archaeological remains of this lost city have been discovered 36 metres (120 feet) underwater in the Gulf of Cambay off the western coast of India. And carbon dating says that they are 9,500 years old.

This news completely contradicts the position of most Western historians and archaeologists, who (because it did not fit their theories) have always rejected, ignored, or suppressed evidence of an older view of mankind’s existence on planet Earth. Human civilization is now provably much more ancient than many have believed.

According to the BBC’s Tom Housden, reporting on the Cambay find:

The vast city — which is five miles long and two miles wide — is believed to predate the oldest known remains in the subcontinent by more than 5,000 years.

The site was discovered by chance last year by oceanographers from India’s National Institute of Ocean Technology, who were conducting a survey of pollution.

Using sidescan sonar, which sends a beam of sound waves down to the bottom of the ocean, they identified huge geometrical structures at a depth of 120 feet.

Debris recovered from the site — including construction material, pottery, sections of walls, beads, sculpture, and human bones and teeth — has been carbon dated and found to be nearly 9,500 years old (BBC article).

Several reports confirm this estimate. Housden added, “The whole model of the origins of civilisation will have to be remade from scratch.”

Now I have trouble calling 5 miles “Vast”… but that bit of hyperbole aside, it’s a BIG city for the time. These are not all farmers walking several miles to get to their fields, nor are they hunters walking a dozen miles to go poke lunch with a stick. Something else is going on.

Linda Moulton Howe, who investigates occurrences of this type worldwide, interviewed Michael Cremo about this new discovery. Cremo is a researcher and author of the book Forbidden Archaeology. Cremo, Howe said, has visited India and attended local meetings about the Cambay site.

“Within the past few months,” Cremo told her, “the engineers began some dredging operations there and they pulled up human fossil bones, fossil wood, stone tools, pieces of pottery, and many other things that indicated that it indeed was a human habitation site that they had. And they were able to do more intensive sonar work there and were able to identify more structures. They appeared to have been laid out on the bank of a river that had been flowing from the Indian subcontinent out into that area.”

Many times I’ve said you will find the earliest cities and civilization where big rivers meet the oceans, and under water at a distance that matches their age. The oldest likely to be about 400 feet down.

From the wiki

So 120 feet is about 40 meters. Which is about 9500 years ago on this graph… Want to find an older city? Follow that ancient riverbed out to 120 meters ( 360 to 400 feet ) depth, then dig.

Note, too, these folks were already making pottery. That’s a craft / industrial process. They are located on the intersection of land, river, and sea. Cities form there as those are major intersections of different transportation systems so become trade centers. Metals are unlikely to have survived that long underwater, but wood can. An examination of the pottery and wood might indicate what kind of tooling was used to make it / them. Then we have the riverside / ocean bay location. This STRONGLY argues for some kind of boats, fishing, and trade. A transportation system based on water.

Though really, dredging? For an archaeological site? It really isn’t all that hard to SCUBA dive to 120 feet. We need to field a team of underwater Real Archaeologists ™ to do a proper examination of the site.

The refereced BBC article is here:


From 2002, so not exactly a new story.

Saturday, 19 January, 2002, 06:33 GMT
Lost city ‘could rewrite history’

But I just LOVE this attempted dodge of how old the place is:

Chronological problem

This, Mr Hancock told BBC News Online, could have massive repercussions for our view of the ancient world.

“There’s a huge chronological problem in this discovery. It means that the whole model of the origins of civilisation with which archaeologists have been working will have to be remade from scratch,” he said.

However, archaeologist Justin Morris from the British Museum said more work would need to be undertaken before the site could be categorically said to belong to a 9,000 year old civilisation.

“Culturally speaking, in that part of the world there were no civilisations prior to about 2,500 BC. What’s happening before then mainly consisted of small, village settlements,” he told BBC News Online.

Yeah, right. Folks frequently built cities underwater…

It is absolutely certain it is that old, otherwise they had to be building underwater. It is absolutely certain it is a city, as you don’t get stone built villages of 5 miles in length without some kind of civilization, trade, and technology. Hunter gatherers and farmers all spread out, of necessity.

But go ahead. Defend your failed paradigm of human history. Let some young new student be the one to rewrite history and replace your work with a footnote saying “Prior to this, the silly notion that society was only 5000 years old was commonly held, but ignorance is like that.”


Arrogance is so damned hard to get past for some folks. They need to learn the mantra:

“It isn’t about ME, and it isn’t about YOU. Reality Just Is!. -E.M.Smith”

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About E.M.Smith

A technical managerial sort interested in things from Stonehenge to computer science. My present "hot buttons' are the mythology of Climate Change and ancient metrology; but things change...
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79 Responses to 9500 Year Old City Underwater Off Indian Coast

  1. Larry Ledwick says:

    If I were a multi-billionaire like Paul Allen or Jeff Bezos, I would fund a deep underwater archeology project to do just that, make detailed sonar maps and searches of ancient river beds off the coasts of the major continents about 2 miles wide on each side of the river channel out to a depth of about 400 ft. along with periodic core samples to see if you can get lucky.

  2. Tom says:

    The Egyptian Empire likely formed from the refugees of a once lushly vegetated Sahara. In some circles the thought is that the Sphinx is a reworked monument, heavily eroded by tropical monsoon conditions during the last wet cycle of northern Africa.

    The peak of the last wet excursion was perhaps as much as 9000 years prior to now. The major influence, the wobble cycle effect, perhaps defines a 20k to 23K year oscillation in northern Africa’s hydrology.


  3. Larry Ledwick says:

    Prior to that you would probably want to do some estimations of local climate in those bands at different sea levels below current. People would look for the same things 10,000 years ago that settlers did 400 years ago. Relatively flat area with good soil for farming and near by timber for construction (at least in the northern temperate zones like Europe and the Mediterranean – black sea basin), adequate fresh water from the river channel and similar things city founders look for.

    If one wanted to take a huge gamble make a concentrated effort in the vicinity of the ice age low stand of sea level and the continental run off channels that would have been sea shore locations in 17000 BC and prior at the ending days of the last glaciation in relatively warm environs like northern Africa, and Iberian peninsula.

  4. Gary says:

    Two minor points: 1) need to resolve possible tectonic subsidence, 2) bottom time for SCUBA is severely limited at 120 feet. Special diving technology including robotics is required. Otherwise, very cool story.

  5. Eilert says:

    There are quite a lot of sites found, which defy the actual story of start of civilisation at about 3000-4000Bc, which archaeologist pedel.

    Eg. The Bosnian pyramids discovered by Dr Sam Osmanagich made of concrete blocks, which have been tested to be 2 to 3 times stronger then modern concrete.
    Organic material, which can be connected to the construction, was found and carbon dated to 34000 years.
    Link to an article:

    Other information:


  6. E.M.Smith says:


    25 minutes bottom time on trimix at 60 meters… It isn’t all that hard to get enough bottom time to be useful…

    As this is a good 50% deeper than the target site, actual bottom time there would be considerably longer. Yeah, you would need to use oxygen enriched mix, w/ helium & nitrogen. Not hard for an expedition to arrange.

    (And yes, at an earlier point in my life I did some scuba diving, including a fishing expedition off Oregon in the ocean where we shot a Cabezon and Ling Cod, both delicious ;-)


    So the Bosnians eh? Wonder what’s just off shore of the old Yugoslavia..

  7. Larry Ledwick says:

    Why that would be the sea floor between Italy and Bosnia.
    You don’t suppose an advanced civilization predates the Romans in the Adriatic valley during the ice age sea low stand period which would have extended for thousands of years. The southern location and lower altitude would have meant much warmer and wetter weather the continental Europe.

    Looks like there was a broad flat valley at the north end of the current Adriatic sea valley back during low stand.

  8. H.R. says:

    Oh, thanks E.M. I didn’t realize that link had not posted.

    In case no-one has noticed 😜, I’ve been going on a bit this weekend about the possibility that humans migrated – what the hey – out of Africa to other parts of the world much faster than thought because they used boats along the coasts and moved inland. E.M. came up with homo maritimus. Everyone has pitched in to show that using a boat and could would have been a need for early hominoids and that a certain amount of of advancement to more sophisticated boats didn’t take any great leaps and could have happened in a relatively short time.

    What I touched on that intrigues me more is that most archeologists are full of poo-poo because they only dig around on land as it formed now (witness the linked article), and the evidence of earlier civilizations is under water out on the Continental Shelves (H/T to some poster here several years ago). So I’ve got the thought nagging at me that perhaps civilization might go back to the last inter-glacial. And of course, any evidence of that is under water or destroyed on land by the intervening glaciation.

    I’m not aware of any archeologists proposing that ‘civilization’ goes back to the previous inter-glacial, but I don’t see why not. Our predecessors may have made it to huts and villages, maybe towns, before being wiped out by the onset of cold at the start of the last glaciation.

  9. H.R. says:

    @Eilert: Your first link made me aware of at least one archeologist who is thinking along the lines I’ve expressed.

    It looks like he’s considered to be a bit of a nutter. It kinda reminds me of some other nutter that had the crazy idea that continents floated around on the surface of the Earth. Of course their peers couldn’t be wrong, could they? The established theories are bulletproof.😜

  10. tom0mason says:

    Would this idea at https://malagabay.wordpress.com/2017/05/12/indian-impacts-taprobane/ have legs then?
    Basically India is a relatively modern land mass and so much of southern India was an island set in the Indian Ocean.

  11. Larry Ledwick says:

    A bit more on traditional boats. The Dhow characteristic of the Red Sea areas and coastal waters of India dates back to at least 600 BC – 600 AD

    The Venetian Gondola dates to at least 1054 and perhaps near the year 600 according to some scholars.

    The Chinese Junks first appeared in China during the Han Dynasty (206 BC – 220 AD),

    The earliest documented human boat is a dug out canoe dating from 8000 BC, however historical references allude to well built boats in use back to 10,000 BC – 9500 BC

    Petroglyph dating from 10000 BCE


    Given the odds of finding non-durable items from that period and even petroglyphs it seems likely that the true origins of hominid boats extend far back before our earliest discoveries to date. Statistically it would be reasonable to assume their history extends back at least as far again as the time span between our earliest evidence and the current time, putting the origin of well designed boats likely begun in the late period of the last glaciation perhaps 20k-22k years ago.

    NTaleb talks about this in his book anti-fragile, that things which have lasted a long time are inherently not fragile and are likely to last into the future at least as long as they have existed in the past. It seems reasonable to extend that same concept to archeological finds and it is reasonable to presume that they existed prior to our earliest documented discovery for some period of time up to the length of time we know for sure that they have existed.

  12. E.M.Smith says:

    FWIW, I paddled a boat much like one of these for quite a few miles around the Lake Orovile afterbay:


    Though the one we used was called a “stow-boat” IIRC.

    This one looks interesting too:


    The modern coracle


    Then, of course, if you simply MUST have a boat when backpacking:


    Then coroplast as the tech replacement for that bark boat:


    Looks like lots of folks interested in ultralight boats:


    I’m thinking this whole boat thing has a very long history…

    FWIW, now that I’ve got a Subaru, I’m thinking I need a boat… So I’m probably going to make one of those ultralight things of one kind or another. I’ve used a Coleman plastic canoe (OK, but really too heavy and long) and a kayak (too close to gator level and not enough space for fishing stuff). So I have some idea what I like. Something more skiff like, but without the trailer issues…

    Probably not a “skin boat” type just ’cause I’d rather not be one claw poke from swimming… so I’m thinking some kind of coroplast like folding skiff with a flotation insert in case of swamping. (Styrofoam or maybe a thick inflatable.. wouldn’t take much… maybe three small 12 inch type inner tubes in each corner of the transom and the bow)

    But looking at ultralight boats of “now” gives you an idea how little it would take to make a good enough boat for one or two for “then”.

  13. Larry Ledwick says:

    @tom0mason That is way out of time, geological evidence shows India collided with the Asian mainland something like 52-55 million years ago.

  14. Ralph B says:

    Just last week there was the report of a 700,000 year old site showing someone slaughtered a rhinoceros with tools. No word if Raquel Welch was there…but does put the out of Africa theory to question

  15. H.R. says:

    Larry, you struck gold with that History of Boats link. Thank you!

  16. Larry Ledwick says:

    Thanks – Yes I love doing these little Easter egg hunts as the contributors here throw out ideas around the pot belly stove. The group here throw a wide enough net that it does not take long to stitch together a pretty good picture of an idea or concept.

    That is the reason I come here for intellectual stimulation, between everyone’s institutional memory or past events and recall of things seen done or read perhaps 40 + years ago, seasoned with a good skill base for conducting and filtering search results I find it more entertaining than most media intended for entertainment.

  17. E.M.Smith says:

    @H.R. & Larry:

    Yes, I especially loved this little tid-bit:

    In time, Erectus spread out of Africa into Asia, but as he did not wear clothes, he stayed close to the equator. Erectus reached the Indonesian archipelago as early as 800,000 years ago. We know this because stone tools dated to that period and typical of Erectus have been found on the Island of Flores – between Bali and Timor. Although Erectus could have reached Bali by trekking over land bridges; migration beyond Bali to Flores required a minimum of 10 important sea crossings of up to 100 km and could not have occured by accident [Ref1]. The conclusion is that Homo Erectus built seaworthy craft 600,000 years before the first Homo Sapiens appeared on earth.

    Nothing remains of these early boats – which have long since rotted away; but, knowing what plants and tools were available at the time, anthropologists can guess at the kinds of watercraft they used. The current theory is that bamboo rafts like the one shown below were used. Recently, this hypothesis was tested by building rafts using stone age techniques and replicating critical crossings

    Which strongly implies humans have had boats as long as there have been humans… otherwise we’d have to be stupider than Homo Erectus and unable to observe them using their boats…

    I’m pretty sure as humans evolved we brought the prior boats with us… and improved them.

    Oh, and as Neanderthals were the bridge between Erectus and us, the strong implication in Neanderthals had them for getting over all those European rivers to spread over their range..

  18. E.M.Smith says:

    Interesting. Searching on “Neanderthal boat” turns up a lot…
    one random sample:


    Neanderthals were sailing the Mediterranean 100,000 years ago
    Alasdair Wilkins
    2/29/12 7:40pm

    Humans likely first took to the seas about 50,000 years ago. But there’s mounting evidence that our Neanderthal cousins were routinely sailing throughout the Mediterranean twice as long ago. Alternatively, they were just really good at long distance swimming.

    We can’t know what sorts of boats Neanderthals might have used. Presumably, they were made out of wood, which is exactly the problem — there’s just no way wood is going to last 100,000 years, without rotting in even a tiny fraction of that time. But we can identify ancient Neanderthal presence through the distinctive Mousterian stone tools that they left behind, which have been found on the coastal Greek islands of Kefallinia and Zakynthos. Neanderthals must have crossed the water for their tools to end up there.

    The only potential objection to this was the possibility that shifting sea levels might have once connected these islands to the mainland via a land bridge. But it looks like we can rule that possibility out, according to George Ferentinos of Greece’s University of Patras. As New Scientist reports, Ferentinos has found that the sea levels in the Mediterranean were significantly lower 100,000 years ago, they were still about 180 meters higher than the bed of the Ionian Sea off the Greek coast, meaning no land bridge would have been possible.

    It wouldn’t have taken the Neanderthals too much effort to reach these islands — they’re only about three to eight miles away, depending on the particular configuration of the coast. Ferentinos and his fellow researchers estimate that Neanderthals began seafaring sometime between 110,000 and 35,000 years ago. We should have a better idea of the exact date range once the stone tools on the islands have been more accurately dated.



    Neanderthals On A Boat
    01 Sunday Jan 2017

    Posted by Kambiz Kamrani in Blog

    Mousterian spearheads, a classic Neanderthal tool type, were excavated from the Stelida archeological site on the Greek island of Naxos by from McMaster University. There has been a long time belief that the first people to colonize this particular region were early farmers who arrived by boat approximately 9,000 years ago. These artifacts imply something much much different as they could be 250,000 years old. Archaeologist, Tristan Carter, co-director, comments on the these artifacts,

    Well then… Homo Maritimus indeed…

  19. E.M.Smith says:


    The stone “mousterian” tools are unique to Neanderthals and have been found on the islands of Zakynthos, Lefkada and Kefalonia, which range from five to twelve kilometers from mainland Greece. Some, such as Paul Pettitt from the University of Sheffield, suggest they could have swum that far. But that doesn’t explain how similar tools found on the island of Crete got there. That would have meant swimming forty kilometers, which seems extremely unlikely, especially since such swimmers wouldn’t have known beforehand that Crete was there to find.

    Ferentinos et al suggest the evidence shows that Neanderthals not only figured out how to build boats and sail but did so quite extensively well before modern humans ever got the idea. They say because the tools found on the islands are believed to date back 100,000 years (and the islands have been shown to have been islands back then as well) Neanderthal people were sailing around that long ago. Thus far, evidence for modern humans sailing dates back to just 50,000 years when they made their way to Australia. If true, that would mean Neanderthal people were sailing around in the Mediterranean for fifty thousand years before modern people built their first boat.

    Well then… Crete, eh? That kind of hard to reach by swimming… IIRC they have a fair number of sharks around there too…

    So Neanderthals sailing on the Med… I really think we need to start digging down in the muck about 100,000 years worth in the Mediterranean… where the major rivers entered…

  20. H.R. says:

    @E.M.: Yes, that was the gold that gave some support to your homo maritimus musing.

    Just because homo erectus didn’t have the gene for speech doesn’t mean they didn’t communicate. I believe there was a universal sign language that may date back to homo erectus that was picked up by newer iteration of hominids. And there are whales, and crows, and wolves which communicate well enough to maintain social groups. So why not people with enough smarts to make stone tools and boats?

    And about 2/3s of the way down in the article Larry linked, this picture appeared.

    Check out the trusses on the outriggers! I don’t see a one among the crew that looks like he ever attended an engineering class.

  21. Larry Ledwick says:

    Planet Earth Baboons crossing water by wading

    Baboons at low tide

    Baboons eating shark eggs on the low tide

    If baboons are naturally attracted to the sea shore you can bet other early hominids also were.

    Swimming apes and monkeys


    Recent experience with people and animals that got pulled out to sea on tsunamis give a good clue about how a primate might be exposed to rafting naturally and then began experimenting with it.

    I have been looking for a video of a monkey or baboon using a flotation device to cross water but so far have not found any such in the wild, although I have found a few surfing monkeys with human assistance.

  22. Larry Ledwick says:

    Sorry I doubled a link above, very similar but different than the eating shark egg video.

    Baboons at low tide

  23. Zeke says:

    I am going to play the marine archaeolgy crab.

    The article says the site on the Indian continental shelf was discovered by chance.

    The site was discovered by chance last year by oceanographers from India’s National Institute of Ocean Technology, who were conducting a survey of pollution.

    Using sidescan sonar, which sends a beam of sound waves down to the bottom of the ocean, they identified huge geometrical structures at a depth of 120 feet.

    But I remember reading about this site in Graham Hancock’s book. One of the methods he used was just asking the fisherman and also consulting their folk stories (along with the Vedas), and they showed him where the city was.

  24. Zeke says:

    The undersea archaeology crab says,

    I do not think that the carbon dating gave them the figure of 9,500 BC.

    That came from a computer model. All of them, including Hancock, check the ice age sea-level models to get a date to fit the finding.

    But for my billions of science dollars, I would go for…..
    …The Hyperboreans on the Arctic shelves! (:

  25. Larry Ledwick says:

    One interesting thought, our current climate has been warm for about 8000 or so of the last 11-12k years prior to that it was stable for about 100K years (ie 10x longer) with lower sea levels and lush continental shelf areas now inundated, so it would not be a big stretch to think that there is a “LOT” more archeology 100′ odd feed under water than has been found above water over the last few hundred years of active archeology.

    We will just have to wait for the next glaciation to really investigate much of it. Come back in a few thousand years.

  26. E.M.Smith says:


    I think I remember seeing a video of an Orangutan using a tree limb for buoyancy in the water…


    It’s those pesky facts and good memory that hold you back from success as a Government Scientist! ;-)

  27. Zeke says:

    Like you, I don’t know if I would have given the green light for the (gov’t?) dredging. But then again, I get pretty impatient. And it is their ruin. (:

  28. Zeke says:

    “Within the past few months,” Cremo told her, “the engineers began some dredging operations there and they pulled up human fossil bones, fossil wood, stone tools, pieces of pottery, and many other things that indicated that it indeed was a human habitation site that they had.”

    Fossils must be 10,000 years old or more by definition, so that won’t be a human fossil for another 500 years. Ha!

  29. Larry Ledwick says:

    Based on this image it appears to me that the average sea level for the last million years was around 50 meters below current sea level, ranging from 30 to 120 meters below current sea level.

    The rate of sea level change near 10,000 years ago was very rapid going from 90 meters to 40 meters or so in only 1000 years or so. That would imply sea level could have increase by about 5 meters per century, 1 meter per 20 years (human life span) cities would have been constantly back building away from the ocean if they had permanent structures. There would have been lots of flooded woodland areas along the coasts as time would not have been available for all the standing timber to die and rot. That would also mean except for steep sided hills you would need small boats like Pirogue boat in Louisiana to navigate the flooded wood land boundary and get out to open water.



    Historical sea level last 1 million years

  30. Larry Ledwick says:

    One million years of sea level rise video – seems someone has been working on some of these issues documenting submerged structures since the late 1950’s

    one million years of sea level rise
    Research from GreshamCollege Dr Nicholas Flemming marine geo-archaeologist from the Institute of Oceanography at the University of Southampton.


  31. Larry Ledwick says:

    Holy crap that last link is a very well spent 51 minutes of video. There are literally thousands of off shore submerged sites already documented.

    he discussed this discovery (since destroyed by storm action) showing foot prints of a small family walking on the beach mud flats in England some 800,000 years ago.


  32. jdseanjd says:

    The Piri Reis map raises interesting questions. Aerial surveying? Ground reading radar through one mile thick ice?
    John Doran.

  33. Larry Ledwick says:

    Location of the Happisburg foot prints in relation to ice age terrain and modern boundaries.

    Happisburg footprints map image

  34. jdseanjd says:

    There are more questions than answers, I’m pleased to say.

    Youtube & put in search box: Expert Decodes Sumerian Clay Tablets You Won’t Believe What He Discovered
    1 hr 55 mins, but worth it.

    Sumerian firsts include ( ~4000 to 2000 years BC) laws, schools, maths, 360 Deg circle, precession & Earth’s tilt. HOW? They had the Sun at the center of the Solar System, contrary to all appearances & showed a planet where we now have the asteroid belt. QUE? They show Saturn with rings, Lord Enki giving man the plough 2500 BC & had a navigation map, showing Earth as the 7th planet in, towards the Sun, which is on permanent display at the British Museum.

    They had over 200 recipes for beer. These Sumerians were proper people. :)

    The presenter surmises that the Baalbek trilithon, a group of three huge cut rocks (1000 to 1100 tons) we could not shift today were an exhaust shield for a rocket launch/landing pad.

    Also mentioned is the oldest story known to mankind: The Epic of Gilgamesh, which deals with the Flood, snake, saviour & immortality. Ring any bells?

    The possible origins of mankind are mentioned. Well worth the time.

    John Doran.

  35. Ian W says:

    For those that haven’t read it, Forbidden Archaeology is a good read. Archaeologists have been fighting a rear guard action against these discoveries of civilizations predating their out of Africa delivered wisdom for more than a century.

  36. jdseanjd says:

    Youtube & put in search box:
    Great Pyramid Mathematical Secrets
    16 mins.

    The great pyramid built showing a knowledge of both the size of the Earth & the location upon the Earth of the pyramid, & much more.


  37. H.R. says:

    @Ian W: I’ll have a look at Forbidden Archeology soon. Sounds very interesting. Thanks.

    I’ve made a few disparaging remarks about establishment archeologists (arrogant stodgy old poopy-heads hellbent on defending their pet theories by arguing from authority), but recently posted links show that there is a small cadre of contrarian archeologists that are already looking into the ideas that are being kicked around in here in the past several days.

  38. H.R. says:

    Here’s a link to Michael A. Cremo’s (Forbidden Archeology) papers and lectures.


    That dude sure knows how to monetize his work, but as you scroll down through the abstracts given on that page, you still get a fair amount of detail of the underpinnings of his work.

    He seems to share my “poopy-head” view, but is much more understanding and forgiving (and PC) about stating it.😜

  39. llanfar says:

    @jdseanjd you can embed YouTube preventing WordPress from inlining it by adding text after the link (as simple as a space)…

  40. Gary says:

    E.M., regarding bottom time, even with special air mixtures is pretty short. Underwater research activities take a lot of setup and careful recording is a time-eater. Many years ago I did some fairly simple stuff for a master’s degree and looking back the data were fairly sparse considering the amount of time spent. Archeological work is more complex than what I did. Not saying it can’t be done, but will be expensive.

    Alternatively, Bob Ballard has done a lot to advance the technology of underwater robotics:


    He’s found settlement sites as well as shipwrecks

  41. H.R. says:

    Here’s an interesting article about Giants on the earth.

    Legends of Giants and the Native Americans

    Giants appear in many other legends, including those of people indigenous to what is now the United States (more often known as Native Americans).

    Nations that inhabited the Northeastern and Southwestern parts of the country often spoke of a race of “red haired” giants. One of these legends includes that of the Paiute tribe that was predominant in the southwest area of Arizona, Nevada, and Utah. The legend says the giants (also known as “Si-Te-Cah”) existed before the tribe migrated there thousands of years ago. Si-Te-Cah means “tule eaters” which is a plant that grows underwater. These giants were said to be twelve feet in stature with flaming bright red hair, and are generally described as menacing.

    It was said that all the tribes of the area stood together against these giants and chased them into a cave. The giants refused to leave the safety of the cave, so the Paiutes along with the other tribes, set the cave on fire. The cave then collapsed during an earthquake, sealing the entrance shut.

    Interestingly enough, when the area was mined for fertilizing materials there were several fossils discovered in the early 1920s. Along with those fossils were the well preserved human like skeletons, one male and one female. The female was over six feet tall and the male was over eight feet.

    Along with the discovery of the skeletons, there were many other artifacts found including a circular calender that had the number of days and weeks of a year etched into it.

    8 to 10 Foot Tall Skeletons! In 1931, two more skeletons were discovered in Lockport Nevada that measured from eight to ten feet tall.


  42. Chris in Calgary says:

    Similar findings have been made about a civilization in what is now called the Persian Gulf.


    Researchers speculate that this is what is being referred to in the first chapters of Genesis, as the Garden of Eden.

  43. Larry Ledwick says:

    Hmm interesting, persian gulf sea floor map (zoomable see scroll and zoom control slider at bottom of map)
    It looks like almost all of the Persian gulf would have been a broad dry valley or a shallow sea at low stand sea levels.

    Deepest parts of Hormuz Straits are around 75-80 meters (-240 to -256 ft) below sea level.


  44. Larry Ledwick says:

    This map allows you to slide the map around “under” a fixed cursor and it will tell you the depth at that location (and water temp for fishing).


    It shows that during the ice age there would have been most of the northern Persian gulf would have been dry land (the color coding is current sea temp not depth).

  45. jim2 says:

    Just when you’re getting really comfortable being the Head Dirt Digger, some yahoo goes off and finds a 9,000 year old civilization. That’s gotta hurt!

  46. H.R. says:

    Larry, I have an uncle who worked for an American oil company in Saudi Arabia for about 30 years.

    He and some friends would go out and explore the Empty Quarter and make personal maps of interesting place they found. On a few occasions he remarked that the Empty Quarter used to be anything BUT empty in antiquity. He said just about anywhere they stopped they found stone arrow heads and other flint tools laying around and in some places pottery shards galore. It was verboten to take any finds, and he didn’t out of respect for the laws of the land and not particularly the fact that he’d no doubt be busted on his annual one month leave to the U.S. Anyhow, the words he used was ‘littered with artifacts’.

    With that many years in Saudi Arabia and not much to do on days off, I’m certain he saw most of the country, but the not-so-Empty Quarter really made an impression on him.

  47. E.M.Smith says:


    Your comment about “The Empty Quarter” reminded me I wanted to look that up some day and find out just where it was…

    Basically the thing that keeps Yemin from being part of Saudi…

    Then ran into this bit:


    The desert is 1,000 kilometres (620 mi) long, and 500 kilometres (310 mi) wide. Its surface elevation varies from 800 metres (2,600 ft) in the southwest to around sea level in the northeast. The terrain is covered with sand dunes with heights up to 250 metres (820 ft), interspersed with gravel and gypsum plains. The sand is of a reddish-orange color due to the presence of feldspar.

    There are also brackish salt flats in some areas, such as the Umm al Samim area on the desert’s eastern edge.

    Lake beds

    Along the middle length of the desert there are a number of raised, hardened areas of calcium carbonate, gypsum, marl, or clay that were once the site of shallow lakes. These lakes existed during periods from 6,000 to 5,000 years ago and 3,000 to 2,000 years ago. The lakes are thought to have formed as a result of “cataclysmic rainfall” similar to present-day monsoon rains and most probably lasted for only a few years. However, lakes in the Mundafen area in the southwest of the Rub’ al Khali show evidence of lasting longer, up to 800 years, due to increased runoff from the Tuwaiq Escarpment.

    Evidence suggests that the lakes were home to a variety of flora and fauna. Fossil remains indicate the presence of several animal species, such as hippopotamus, water buffalo, and long-horned cattle.
    The lakes also contained small snails, ostracods, and when conditions were suitable, freshwater clams. Deposits of calcium carbonate and opal phytoliths indicate the presence of plants and algae. There is also evidence of human activity dating from 3,000 to 2,000 years ago, including chipped flint tools, but no actual human remains have been found.

    So at the time of Christ ( 2000 years ago) there were lakes there… with hippos and water buffalo…

    The whole middle east must have had a dramatically different climate than now. I wonder if there’s any kind of “what the Levant / Middle East climate was like in the time of Christ” analysis somewhere…

    This has implications of the habitation of Petra too.

    Also note that this seems to come in about 2000 year ( 1800 year? 1500 year?) patches every 3000 years. So something cyclical happens, most likely. One wonders if this is one of those things that needs a bit warmer to drive it (like the Indian Monsoons depend on heat, and the Green Sahara depended on heat).

    Then we have a clear pointer to why the Romans in about year zero were importing grain from North Africa… and why they wanted the Levant and Israel…

    Then a bit further into rampant speculation, might it be that despite having the Nile delivering some regular water, could it be that Egypt had their slow slide from world domination in the BC to zero times due to the gradual dehydration of the area… gradual reduction of food… of wealth…

  48. H.R. says:

    @Larry: Bookmarked that fishing map.

    Before I left it, I noticed they had pulldowns for maps all over the world. It had my Florida fishing grounds. YAY! Keeper. Thanks.

  49. H.R. says:

    @E.M.: I got to wondering about the age of the artifacts my uncle was finding. For one thing, wouldn’t he and his buddies have found some metal artifacts if indeed, “There is also evidence of human activity dating from 3,000 to 2,000 years ago, including chipped flint tools, […]”? There should have at least been some bronze artifacts, unless the Nomads of the area had scavenged all metals from the area. They had plenty of time to do so, were actively seeking it, and had a couple of thousand years to scour the area clean. They would ignore all the ‘old tech’ stone tools and points lying around.

    Re. Climate thereabouts in Biblical times:
    One story that always fascinated me was the Cedars of Lebanon. It made an impression on me as a kid in bible school. Here’s a ‘bible-site’ with some good info and additional links.

    Also, I recall a discussion on WUWT about ancient Middle-East climate around the Roman Optimum, and someone had a link to a great article about the size of the cedars and the vast extent of them in Lebanon in Roman times. Anyhow, whatever typical CAGW paper was being discussed was blaming the decline of Lebanon cedars on fossil fuels, ignoring the impact of the Romans needs and the more favorable climate (warmer/wetter than now) that had been producing massive cedars.

  50. Steve C says:

    There’s also that curious fact about so many ancient sites (Great Pyramid, Easter Island, Nazca lines, Macchu Picchu … ) aligning on a great circle, as discussed on Graham Hancock’s site here. Been waiting for a good explanation of that one for years.

    Incidentally, Larry’s mention above of the prehistoric footprints prompts me to mention that “Happisburgh” is pronounced “Hazeboro”. It’s not obvious, even to an English native!

  51. H.R. says:

    Yeah, Steve C. In the US, ‘Pittsburgh’ is pronounced ‘Pissboro.’

    Cleveland Browns fan since the days of Jim Brown. Every play Jim Brown would get up like it was his last play ever and he’d have to leave the game. Then he’d rip off another great run and… get up like he was crippled yet again. I was just throwing a bit of trash talk at the hated Steelers 😜.

    Nowadays, I don’t care about the NFL one bit 🤷‍♂️.

  52. beng135 says:

    Not 9500 yrs old, but a link to some of the Hindus culture literature:

  53. H.R. says:

    @Steve C (12.59 pm): After reading that article you linked, it gets me wondering why they chose that particular circumference of the Earth. It seems likely that two sites were built and then the straight line between those two sites was projected around the globe where other sites were then located, based on some multiple of 3.6. Which raises some questions.

    What were the two original sites?

    Is one of the original sites lost in the Sahara just above the Sahel? (I think the line goes through there. Not sure, though.)

    Should/is someone be looking for sites every 3.6% of the Earth’s circumference away from any of the given sites on that line? The next 3.6 location might be just off some coastline.

    Were the bright boys who figured all this out, including construction techniques, a parallel developing human species who ventured (by boat!) South into Africa?

    Did the human migration ‘out of Africa’ result from explorers from the Tigris/Euphrates area settling in Africa, interbreeding with human-types there, then the resulting humans headed back ‘out of Africa’ which is the current story?

    I have more thoughts on giants as another sub-species of humans based on the Biblical reference to the sons of God coming to Earth and taking the daughters of men as their wives. The result was supposedly a mighty race, I think very smart, with a long lifespan. Nimrod was mentioned. I’m considering other accounts of human sub-species that may have been developing in parallel with the African sub-species that gets credit for migrating ‘out of Africa’ and populating the world.

    I’m just considering that of several human sub-species with all of them figuring out boats fairly easily, one or two of them met up in Africa to create the modern humans that had the right physiology, mental make-up, and skills to go out and populate the world. I am leery of the ‘settled science’ of the ‘out of Africa’ theory because once sold by Leaky and absorbed by the establishment, there’s a tendency not to look for contradictory evidence.

    There’s not much, if any, of evidence for my speculation, but perhaps some will begin turning up as archeology starts looking underwater.

  54. Steve C says:

    @H.R. – I first came across the great circle stuff a few years ago now – somewhere else, but it’s not surprising that Graham Hancock has picked it up. All the usual ‘ancient tech’ figures are in there – 72, 108, pi – and all the usual questions about how they managed to mark the positions so accurately on a global scale … but there it is. However whoever did it, it’s done.

    Another line of speculation on this is that that great circle might have been the equator of its time. Again referring to the Bible, my mind has long wandered back to the incident of the sun standing still in the sky. Could that be a record of (say) an asteroid knocking the earth off its axis, somehow avoiding any major damage, or perhaps a slippage between layers of the earth (imbalanced previous arrangement of continental mass? Could the originator of the Piri Reis map have drawn the coastline of Antarctica before it slid down to the pole?). Socrates was dead right. The more you know, the more you realise you don’t know … :-|

    On pronunciation, I spent much time in my youth searching on maps for the port I’d heard the Irish ferries went to – Dunleary, or at least that was what I was looking for. It was years later when I realised that the place I’d been unable to find was spelt Dún Laoghaire. Ok, I can take the occasional silent ‘p’ (as in ‘bath’), but a silent ‘aogha’? Raoghaeally? 8-0

  55. philjourdan says:

    H.R. says:
    8 May 2018 at 2:29 pm

    Yeah, Steve C. In the US, ‘Pittsburgh’ is pronounced ‘Pissboro.’

    Back in College (pre-historic days for the millennials), we had one guy from Pittsburg on our Dorm floor. As the group was mostly from Ohio (U of Dayton), there still were a sizable bunch of us from other places. So when talking about a bunch of folks, some said “Y’all”, some said “you guys” (that was me) and Steven Grgurich said “Yins”. Well, that made us ALL laugh! He got flustered and declared, “ok, then Yurins!”.

    So Pissboro sounds very appropriate. :-)

  56. E.M.Smith says:

    @Steve C. & H.R.:

    The problem with changing the equator is that then all those “alignments” claimed for things become out of kilter… so the Sphinx would no longer look at the rising sun on the equinox…

    And it’s not ever 3.6 degrees, they were just saying that the % x 3.6 = degrees. This comes right out of circle being 360. So what’s 1% of that? 360/100 = 3.6 degrees. So every percent is 3.6 degrees. When two monuments are 10 % separated, that’s 36 degrees…

    Also any “movement of the continents” is a non-starter for explaining anything done by people. Continents move in MILLIONS of years. People evolve into being on that scale, but do things based on THOUSANDS of years… 3 orders of magnitude difference…

    Per Redhead Giants:

    Well, I’m 100% ready to embrace the notion they came about from the crossing of Angels with humans… leaving behind some redhead genes… which I possess… but that has nothing at all to do with my accepting them as superior angelic beings… Nothing at all ;-)

    FWIW, my “muse” on that point is just this:

    Africans, especially sub-Saharan, WILL be black. The strong sunlight / UV / skin cancer assures that. The Denisovans were from a temperate area where a lighter brown would be best. Neanderthals were of the snowy areas, where clouds dominated, so would be white, with redhead translucent skin favored in the very dark areas further north and cloudier.

    The obvious conclusion from this is that the 3 main races represent the original species in the blends.

    Neanderthal and Africans blended for many generations in / near the Levant. This resulted in the Cro-Magnon mix that then genetically swamped the rest of the Neanderthal homeland (after a major volcano destroyed most of it about 30,000 years ago). Some Neanderthals and Denisovans mixed in Asia, then the Neander/African mix wandered in, the resultant 3-way mix is the Asian race. (Somewhat more Denisovan in the Austronesia mix, somewhat less in the Chinese / Japanese Asian types.) Black Africans retaining mostly the original Homo Sapiens characteristics with only minor admixture (until the colonial era at least).

    Then, of course, we of the Redhead Gene mixed in with some Angels & minor Gods ;-)

  57. H.R. says:

    @E.M.: For myself, I wasn’t much concerned about the line of structures being on the equator. I just figured that the first well-learned bunch built the earliest structure, then got chased away when the climate dried out their area.

    Then they migrated and built another monumental structure. That made the two points for the line to project around the globe and one of those points happened to be or was chosen to be on the equator. The other point was determined by the climate. And the ‘sacred’ distance was determined by the distance to the new place. When they got to the new place, they aligned the the structure to the cardinal points. Same for any other new place as they expanded into the world.

    BTW, I don’t buy claims of exactitude for the spacing on the line unless chronometers are older than we thought (just how long has Rolex really been in business? 😜) I can see them easily holding latitude to complete the line, but not longitude. I think someone hit on the circle, then made the longitude fit, but then I haven’t looked any further than that one article.

    If we ever find any fossilized Pan-Am Clipper remains, then I’ll have to rethink the intelligence of our ancestors and that longitude pooh-poohing I’m doing.

  58. E.M.Smith says:

    Per the things being on, basically, a tilted Great Circle, I would go with a different explanation.

    Be it Space Aliens, or Advanced Early Humans, all that is required is that the early civilization who planned / built these things had flight and decent navigation.

    Now, let’s say you are an Advanced Culture and you would like to put a set of global way stations for observation such that you can observe the most, while traveling the least… and that the poles are covered in ice (this being a glacial and call) so you don’t want to be too far off the equator.

    So you plot a great circle route that goes to roughly 30 degrees N & S while covering land as much as possible along the way (but remembering N. Siberia is all ice all the time so not an option…) then put down some nice big landing pads / hotels / way stations on that circle along with some observatories.

    Now you can observe 100% of the sky / space, and most of the Earth in both hemispheres by flying one shortest path between them.

    Now, were I doing this, I’d also put a similar line on a crossing tilt to this one, probably crossing at the equatorial crossing point, but as needed to be able to run up / down the Americas. It would be interesting to look at “appropriate sites” not on the first line to see if any of them make a crossing line…

    Might also try one starting in South Africa (so as far from the Egypt latitude max as possible and 180 out of phase) and see if it runs through anywhere interesting).

    There is a huge fuel and time advantage in following a Great Circle route, so as soon as I see “things on a line” like that, I think navigation / fuel burn rather than “Earth Tilt”…

  59. Morgan says:

    Well, according to Wikipedia it’s certainly a city, and certainly old. But the area is tectonically active, so the land may have subsided, and the dates are uncertain (despite what the linked article asserts, it appears that the only radiocarbon date comes from a piece of wood dredged from the site).

    It’s still a fascinating find.


  60. Power Grab says:

    Just a quick two cents’ worth here: Before he died, I heard that my dad had wanted to acquire a small pickup and a small boat that would fit in the back, to use for his favorite hobby: fishing. I guess that would prevent messing with a trailer.

    I always wondered how easy it would be to launch a boat from a pickup bed, or vice versa?

  61. E.M.Smith says:

    Boats small enough to fit in the back of a pickup truck are usually light enough to pick up and carry. Heavy ones have a clip on set of wheels for one end and then you just carry the other…

    Like I’m looking for a small foldable or stowable boat, so about 40 lbs.

    So Pretty easy. About like loading luggage for a family vacation…

  62. E.M.Smith says:

    “These lakes existed during periods from 6,000 to 5,000 years ago and 3,000 to 2,000 years ago.”

    Continues to nag at me. So 1000 years of wet / lakes. Then 2000 years of dry. Then 1000 years of wet / lakes. Then in year zero, 2000 years of dry. Which brings us to “now”….

    The implication is that Right Now we ought to be seeing some major shift of the world to a wetter pattern. More rains. More floods. And not just a little bit.

    Now I don’t expect the precision to be down to the year; and there will have been some more macro changes (such as 6000 years of general cooling so the Sahara can not green again); but still, there ought to be something big afoot. Starting “now”…

  63. H.R. says:

    @E.M.: I’ve been looking at these personal inflatable pontoon boats for the nearby ponds and the inlets on the reservoir next door.

    There are other makers with better, more stout models, but with that comes extra weight and increased setup time (and cost!).

    When you read online reviews of the pontoon boats, it seems like they are actually preferred over conventional boats and canoes by salmon and trout stream/river fishermen out West. They are more stable than canoes and go easily over shallow riffles that hang up conventional boats. They bounce off rocks and trees in the water instead of going ‘clunk’ like an aluminum boat or tipping the occupant like a canoe. Oh, and they are w-a-a-a-y more comfortable than kayaks.

    Storage and transport are another plus. Any model I’ve seen will fit in my Honda Fit and the boats only take a few cubic feet of storage space in the garage, basement, or for the typical single guy, the living room (right beside the motorcycle and across from the kegerator 😜).

    Costco has the Wilderness model in stock at my local store right now for $300. My wife is OK with me getting some kind of fishing boat. Every time I see a nice little rig, she says, “Well if that’s what you want, buy it.” Same for a personal inflatable pontoon.

    Since I bought the F250 pickup to tow the travel trailer, towing a boat of about any size is not an issue, but storage and the launch/retrieval ramp fights are an issue with me. Plus, even a small aluminum rig with a 25hp motor can’t easily be launched and used on ponds, which offer really great fishing.

    If Costco happens to offer a discount on that Wilderness model before they sell out (or in order to sell them out for the season) then I will pull the trigger and get one.

    Having owned a boat, I can fully appreciate that old truism: “The only thing better than owning a boat is having a good friend who owns a boat.” Still, I want a small, highly portable, personal boat 😁.

  64. p.g.sharrow says:

    Had a 12 ft Aluminum boat, just fit in the back of a full size pickup, sort of!. Gave it away as I used it twice in ten years. It was just more trouble then it was worth to me. Used to use a 12ft aluminum boat a lot in Alaska, in river and sea, but that is a young man’s country and I was a young man at the time. Don’t know about an inflatable as I’ve never used one. People that use them seem to like them but they are wetter in rough weather. Just need to keep a patch kit on hand. ;-) …pg

  65. E.M.Smith says:


    Looking at the picture, and reading the text, it has the site 20 km off shore in the Bay of Khambhat, but look at the image and the 100 km scale, then note the bay is clearly an erosional valley caused by the river and land each side extends a few hundred km further out. Not seeing anything that says subsidence here…


    This made the scientists suspect that human workmanship must have been involved here. The surveys were followed up in the following years and two palaeo channels of old rivers were discovered in the middle of the Khambhat area under 20-40m water depths, at a distance of about 20 km from the present day coast.

    Then, the geo-complaint is not about the depth, but stratification:

    Because of the tectonic activity and strong currents, these archeologists claim that there is not sufficient stratification to be sure the recovered artifacts can be associated with the site.

    Meaning crap can be shaken up and / or slide down a hill. All quite true. So in fact the little dredged up bits really could be from further up the slope and just got vibrated down.

    Which is why the thing they have NOT done is so important. Put a body on the site to examine the “building foundations” in place. They don’t just get mixed up and slide down a hill while staying a nice regular rectangular stack of stones…

    Heck, rent an oil rig diver and support crew and do a saturation dive if you need to…


    Yeah, I briefly was hot to get one of those…

    Then I realized that on Florida ponds you are “Snack on a cracker”… dangling feet in Hors D’oeuvres range…

    Same issue causes me to be circumspect about thin skinned inflatables in gator country and things like kayaks and even canoes. We went out in a 2 person canoe and it was OK, but one modest sized gator paw on the gunwale and we’d have been swimming…

    It’s a strange thing for me, not being particularly well schooled on the whole “swimming and fishing with gators” lore… I’m not particularly afraid of them, just respectful of a 14 foot dinosaur that might be hungry and me being a tasty mammal… so see the benefit of some thinking ahead and not trolling for gators with body parts… But I don’t really know what’s needed, nor exactly how careful one needs to be about gator behaviour with the minimal sized craft…

  66. H.R. says:

    @p.g.: Same here, except I think I used my aluminum boat exactly one more time than you did over the same duration of ownership. I had a Full size Dodge van back then and that boat fit nicely with the doors open and a few bungee cords to hold it in. Sold it to my older brother for $100, who only had $50 on him that day. Never saw the other $50 and didn’t much care. That was 30+ years ago. Maybe I’ll have a little fun and call the other $50 on him… with interest 😜

    @E.M.: Yeah, gators factored into my reluctance to buy the personal pontoon. I had been considering them partly because I had plenty of room in the truck or trailer to transport one to Florida for the lakes and ponds, but that gator factor…

    Come to think of it, I don’t recall any reviews or blog chat about personal inflatable pontoons by Florida fishermen. Not surprising, I guess. Kayaks are popular in Florida, but I can’t assume the required position in one for more than a short time, let alone 2-3 hours of fishing.

    I’m in the same boat as you, so to speak. I want something light, can be reduced in size for transport and storage, fast easy setup and takedown, safe and stable, room for gear, and decent seating for someone who can no longer sit on the floor with their legs out for a few hours. And reasonable price! I don’t want money tied up in something I’ll not be using except in spurts twice a year; summer up north and winter in the south. I’d say $1,000 max and I’d not consider that wasted money sitting around.

    I think I’ll go back to looking at folding boats.

  67. E.M.Smith says:

    You know… looking at one of these:


    I think two poles along the outside of the pontoons about at the chair mount rails, with a strong nylon “fish net” – like made of 1/4 inch strong stuff (need to find out what’s better, dacron, nylon, polyester, or just go for kevlar…) going from pontoon to pontoon under the seat and foot rests and reaching from bow to stern: That just might make it “gatorable”…

    Critter could not get to your feet (as their mouth would tangle in the netting) nor could they come over the front / rear easily (again foot tangle in the net, but also need more lunge height to get a foot up there). I’d need to see actual sizes / heights. IF needed, solid plates or plastic panels could be added at places like the foot pegs or bow; both as physical barriers and as optical barriers so the temptation to “grab that tasty foot” is removed… (Many of the attacks that have happened involve gators taking hold of feet as folks sit on the bank with feet over the water… thus being a known risk, my awareness…)

    I’m thinking with a bit of work that could be a functional alternative and make this a Florida workable craft.

    Though would need to not approach those laying on a bank above your waterline, lest they hop on board (video):


    Guess maybe it’s reasonable for me to be thinking about gators wanting to get into small boats :-)

    Which is the other problem with inflatables… WHEN I use my .357 Magnum to plug that sucker who hops on my boat, I’ve got a decent risk of sinking my own boat… Wonder if a Taser works on a gator? ;-)

  68. Larry Geiger says:

    Do not depend on “.357 Magnum” or normal bullet to take out an alligator. This is why gator hunters use a “bang stick” with a shotgun shell. A gators brain is about the size of a walnut. Even in a very large gator. Not easy thing to find with a pistol. Normally gators will leave canoes and kayaks alone. If you plan on going in where there is warm water and a probability of large gators, I wouldn’t go in with anything smaller than a 17 foot canoe. Gators aren’t fond of cool water so many spring runs are fine in a kayak. You may see them, but it’s not as common and they are usually smaller. For instance, I wouldn’t kayak the St. Johns south of Sanford. IMHO. YMMV.

    I have canoed essentially every stream and river between Gainesville and Lakeland. Never had a problem with a Gator though there was that time on Rock Springs Run when my wife put her hand out on a branch and found about 10 little gators resting on the branches. Fun times :-)

    Might take a look at Gheenoes. Standard 17ft with 5 to 10 horse and a trolling motor. Small and light enough to be towed by almost any vehicle. Mine just has a trolling motor on the rear and paddles. Will go anywhere a kayak can go. Very stable. Very safe. Again, IMHO. YMMV.

    These are cool: https://craigcat.com/ I would prefer solid hulls. Especially here in Florida. Lots of snags in the water. Have fun.

  69. philjourdan says:

    ” that time on Rock Springs Run when my wife put her hand out on a branch and found about 10 little gators resting on the branches.”

    One for each finger? I hope she did an inventory. ;-)

  70. E.M.Smith says:


    Well, the .357 and a cylinder full will have to do… it’s the largest stainless steel revolver I’ve got and I’m not going to take a long gun fishing… ” Fishing with a 12 gauge” just sounds like it’s going to generate way too many wise cracks… Besides, If I can’t hit a gator enough to make it change it’s mind with 6 x .357 Mag. I deserve to be gator food… I’ve also got a speed loader for it, so if the gator was particularly slow I could try 12 shots…

    I could use my .40 S&W for 12… but it isn’t stainless and the .40 S&W isn’t a .357 Magnum…

    Don’t know as I’d have the courage to kayak any water in Florida. At least not without a whole lot more understanding first… and maybe starting only in winter… (slow gators ?)

    Baby Gators sounds like great fun! Just make sure Mama isn’t nearby and grumpy…

    $13,000 for a pair of kayaks bolted together with too much motor? You must have a LOT more money than I do! ( I’m down closer to the “under a thousand if possible” range…)

    I’m also hoping for something that doesn’t need a trailer or 2 people to carry it… ( I know, and I want 3 feet of freeboard and I want to go 30 mph and I want a sail kit and a full galley and… ;-)

    I’ll need a while to decide just what to compromise in my vision… ( “Fast, Good, Cheap – pick any two” must have a boating equivalent… “Light, Good, Cheap – pick any one” ? )

  71. E.M.Smith says:

    Looks like netting prices are all over the place. No idea what country these folks are in, but for about $70 to $100 can get a couple of 10 foot long x 4 foot wide chunks… Poly rope would need replacing sooner (and when it weathers makes hard rough stubs of filaments) while nylon holds up better (but gets a slightly greenish tint after a while in the sun). I used both for mooring lines for my sailboat for a few years. Despite the nylon being more ‘stretchy’ and the slight greenish tint in the sun for a “white” rope, it was much nicer on the hands and held up better. ( I know, not the God Awful Expensive real boat dacron lines sold at the ships chandlery but when you don’t have God Awful amounts of money and want a boat…)


    So I’m thinking something like that net, with some nice aluminum or heavy PVC poles to put it where it belongs, as “gator skirting” on one of those pontoon boats… then lace in some solid plates under the foot rests… Ought to be enough to stop the first lunge.

    Yes, a big gator can pluck and break any one string, but I don’t think they are that bright… Still, I’d likely look a bit more for a 1000 lb break strength mesh if I ever really did this… I’m thinking something like the tarp / mesh “deck” on Hobie Cats but under the seat and fore / aft to the ends of the pontoons as just a gator dissuader…

    The big blue bit here:

  72. H.R. says:

    @E.M.: On one of the blog threads discussing the Colorado XT model, IIRC, a guy told about welding on a few bits to the frame to make improvements he wanted: extra rod holders? heavier oarlocks, different food rest? I forget, but the point was that the frame was easy to work with. Also, some who bought the non-swivel seat model urged others to buy an 8″ high swivel seat extension and mount that. Readily available, even at Walmart, they were designed to mount to the plain flat cross seats of an aluminum boat. Then you mount a fishing seat of your choice to the swivel plate and you’ve just turned your aluminum boat into a poor-man’s bass boat.

    I would definitely like a more upright sitting position and a swivel seat is a must so you don’t have to turn the craft to fish alternating sides.

    I like your idea of a tarp added like the Hobie Cat. On the front section, use rings that slide along the side rails and mount a couple of pulleys, front and at hand, with a rope loop running through the pulleys and attached to the front of the tarp. Think of some sort of ‘horizontal sail’ arrangement where you ‘hoist’ the sail to the front while on a lake and ‘lower’ the sail to launch and land.

    I’d also considered getting a 12′ model, raising the seat height about 24″, and adding a foot bar at a higher level. That would put me at about $800 for a bigger model – I think you get a tougher covering material, too – and maybe $200 – $300 tops in modifications. There’s a weight limit on each size pontoon boat. The 9′ models can take a little modification. More mods mean longer pontoons, but deflated there’s not much difference in the space taken up.

  73. H.R. says:

    Here’s a link to fittings that would make extra rails and cross-members easier to mount and no welding required.

    I know conduit-size fittings are made but I’d have to search a while to find them. This company might just have them. Not sure right now as I’m off to fix dinner and ome chores.


  74. philjourdan says:

    Does the kid come with it?

  75. Larry Geiger says:

    You have to beget your own kids.

  76. H.R. says:

    I’m confused, Larry G.

    I thought you begat kids. I just gathered that from all the ‘begatting’ they did in the Old Testament.

    In my neck of the woods, beget implies an upcoming event as in, “Junie May begetting a new baby raht soon.” Or, “I begetting that thar new pick-em-up truck next month iffen my gummint check comes through.”

    But what do I know? I ain’t got no grammar. She done passed in the ’90s.

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