Chinese Wuhan Covid Autopsy Results – It’s The Lungs

The results of 12 autopsies on folks who died OF Covid.

Pretty much all old (median age in the 70s) and with comorbitities.

Generally the damage is via clots to the lungs leading to ARDS (Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrom) and / or heart issues.

I found it interesting that the virus is found all over the body in several tissues, but not always the same ones. Also that some patients did not test PCR-positive from throat swabs but had a load of it in the lungs.

But at least we are starting to get some information from autopsies.

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About E.M.Smith

A technical managerial sort interested in things from Stonehenge to computer science. My present "hot buttons' are the mythology of Climate Change and ancient metrology; but things change...
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90 Responses to Chinese Wuhan Covid Autopsy Results – It’s The Lungs

  1. H.R. says:

    @E.M. – FauXi’s Flu is weird, deadly stuff… and not.

    I am thinking it’s a bit like Whack-A-Mole. It can pop up anywhere and everywhere with consequences ranging from virtually no discomfort to, well… death.

    What I am still trying to suss out is the long-term effects of a dose of Covid vs. the long-term effects of the Covid ‘vaccines’.

    I really appreciate jim2’s efforts to focus on data (crappy as all the data may be) and the facts, as best as can be established. And… there’s the political, monetary, and actual medical aspects that have to be factored in.

    I also note that jim2 is no dummy and has some Ivermectin in his hip pocket in case everything is garbage and it all goes to hell in a handbasket. One smart dude. Trust, but have a knife in your boot.

    It is really hard to sort through it all, but as far as the few blogs that I regularly read go, the Musings of The Chiefio blog is where things are getting sorted out.

    It’s a slow process because everything out there is suspect and has to be carefully examined. The GEBs are pushing… something, and a few billion Joe Averages just want to know what the hell is going on.

  2. John Hultquist says:

    What H.R. said.

  3. Jw says:

    And very interesting about Japan’s news conference about Ivermectin.

  4. E.M.Smith says:

    Well, near as I can tell so far, the vaccine is less damaging than the disease, and the use of a good prophylactic regimen (like IVM) is the least damaging. But not by a lot and the error bars are huge.

    Dr. Been has a video on Israel that shows the vaccine protects from Bad Disease (while having the shot of the quarter club problem AND letting you be a superspreader and not know it…) while being unvaccinated leaves you open to a Really Bad Day… But doesn’t address IVM or similar prophylaxis… Oh Well.

    And yes, I’m trying my best to “sort it out” as my life, such as it is, seems to depend on it.

  5. YMMV says:

    12 autopsies after 22? months and many millions of deaths?
    On the other hand, it’s not that surprising.

    Dr. Been is a proponent of IVM. He is a doctor who actually uses it and knows it very well.
    He started with HCQ, then used both, then went to IVM. But he does not talk about his use any more, since YT started deleting his videos that mentioned it.

    “as I can tell so far, the vaccine is less damaging than the disease”
    It depends. There are two curves, risk of the vaccine and the risk of Covid. The risk of Covid is incredibly worse as the persons age gets up there. It has a very definite slope. The risk of the vaccine is not so clear. There certainly is a small risk, and it might be worse at some ages. But you can imagine those two curves are opposed and there is some point age the risk of the vaccine outweighs the risks of getting Covid. With the panic mode suppressing logic, there are increasing demands to vaccinate the young and children. Not so fast.

    Note that the vaccine deaths are smaller than the Covid deaths by almost 2 orders of magnitude. But if you restrict both deaths to the young people or even kids, you will see that the vaccination kills more people than Covid. If you restrict the Covid deaths to the epoch when the vaccination was intense, the vaccine deaths “win” even among some older groups.

    source: https://motls.blogspot.com/2021/08/109-czech-deaths-apparently-caused-by.html

    Dr. John has a recent video showing data that Covid Delta is more than twice as deadly than Covid Alpha for the unvaccinated (but no significant difference for the vaccinated). A big UK study.

  6. jim2 says:

    Not sure what to make of this one …

    14 portable morgues have headed to Central Florida to assist hospitals dealing an unprecedented number of coronavirus deaths. A recent email from Advent Health explained their hospital morgues in Central Florida had reached full capacity and rented coolers at 10 campuses were also filling up quick.

    “The number of cases in Florida are at record numbers,” stated Orange County Mayor Jerry Demings (D). “New cases of individuals testing positive as well as new cases of individuals dying in our state.”

    Officials told the Orlando Sentinel hospitals have said the death count was higher than it has ever been as the state reported more than 1,700 coronavirus deaths in the past week. Meanwhile, the portable morgues would be distributed to nine area hospitals and are expected to arrive by Monday.

  7. jim2 says:

    C.1.2 is “associated with increased transmissibility and reduced neutralisation sensitivity,” wrote the team, including Cathrine Scheepers, from NICD, in the abstract.

    Compared to C.1, the new variant has “mutated substantially” and is more mutations away from the original virus detected in Wuhan than any other Variant of Concern (VOC) or VOI detected so far worldwide.

    According to the study, C.1.2 has 41.8 mutations per year. It is approximately 1.7-fold faster than the current global rate and 1.8-fold faster than the initial estimate of SARS-CoV-2 evolution.

    A similar short period of increased evolution was also associated with the emergence of the Alpha, Beta, and Gamma VOCs, said the researchers, suggesting that a single event, followed by the amplification of cases, drove a faster mutation rate.

    About 52 per cent of the spike mutations identified in C.1.2 have previously been identified in other VOIs and VOCs. These include D614G, common to all variants, and E484K and N501Y which are shared with Beta and Gamma, with E484K also seen in Eta and N501Y in Alpha.

    Further, the study also found consistent increases in the number of C.1.2 genomes in South Africa on a monthly basis, rising from 0.2 per cent in May to 1.6 per cent in June and 2.0 per cent in July. The researchers stated that it is similar to the increases seen in Beta and Delta in South Africa during early detection.

    https://www.indiatvnews.com/news/world/south-africa-detects-new-covid-variant-c-1-2-coronavirus-third-wave-pandemic-latest-updates-news-730057

  8. Simon Derricutt says:

    Jim2 – also see https://phys.org/news/2021-08-mutation-covid-virus-percent-higher.html which says that the mutation-rate is higher than previously reckoned.

  9. AC Osborn says:

    Vietnam started vaccinating thier people in early March when their total cases were at 2500 they had doubled by May 22nd, quadrupled by June 12th and now stand at 430,000.
    What a wonderful Vaccine success story.

  10. Scissor says:

    The moving average of deaths in Florida is about 46 per day. This is lower than it’s been for most of the past 18 months, so what gives? COVID deaths are probably around 10% of all deaths. Again, what gives?

    A real potential danger of the “vaccine” is ADE. We should know within about the next 6 months how bad this intermediate adverse effect is, though there are signs of it, e.g. in Israel and the U.K.

    Then long term effects will not be known for years. The vaccination of healthy children and young people is criminal.

  11. E.M.Smith says:

    @Scissor:

    The “booster” shots will re-elevate neutralizing antibodies and put off the point where ADE can manifest. ADE manifests when antibodies drop to a “low enough” level. Boosters prevent that.

    So we won’t know until about 9 months after boosters end… So what happens if they promote a booster every 6 months?

    We’ll need to find a sample of vaccinated folks who do NOT get boosters to find out if ADE happens. IFF it does, and is bad (i.e. lethal), then anyone vaccinated who fails to get a booster will end up dead or, if very lucky, just hospitalized.

    So far, what we’ve seen from the vaccines is:

    1) Selection for more virulent variants.

    2) Breakout infections

    3) Superspreaders who are asymptomatic but have the more virulent variants and are shedding way more virus than the original strain.

    4) Some vaccinated folks seeming to have worse rounds of infection in later rounds. Details murky, but both the UK and Israel having more “issues” than expected. (that “there are signs of it” in your comment).

    5) About a 9 month “protected” window after which you have an increasingly failed vaccine.

    6) Significant side effects (Blood clots, swollen lymph nodes, heart inflammation, the occasional death, and more.)

    7) NO reduction in infection peaks and rates.

    8) Some reduction in deaths (maybe… depends on facts not in evidence. Controlled for comorbidities, age, changed virus lethality, etc. not shown).

    9) NO return of liberties and freedoms. Masks still mandated.

    10) Natural immunity is vastly better and longer lasting. (Unclear if vaccine post infection destroys natural immunity, or improves it).

    I’m not seeing the upside.

  12. YMMV says:

    IVM (or not) in India: “Ivermectin can make up for the low use of vaccination. However, vaccination cannot make up for the low use of Ivermectin.”

    This quote is from some other thread here. The article this is from is:
    https://www.thedesertreview.com/opinion/columnists/indias-ivermectin-blackout—part-iii-the-lesson-of-kerala/article_ccecb97e-044e-11ec-9112-2b31ae87887a.html
    Lots of interesting IVM facts there.

    I also found others article in that series:
    https://www.thedesertreview.com/news/national/indias-ivermectin-blackout-part-ii/article_a0b6c378-fc78-11eb-83c0-93166952f425.html
    https://www.thedesertreview.com/opinion/columnists/indias-ivermectin-blackout—part-iv-keralas-vaccinated-surge/article_8a8c481c-09d3-11ec-a51c-fb063e1a3e3b.html

  13. Zeke says:

    “Dr. Been has a video on Israel that shows the vaccine protects from Bad Disease (while having the shot of the quarter club problem AND letting you be a superspreader and not know it…) while being unvaccinated leaves you open to a Really Bad Day…”

    Objection, your honor.

    1. Asymptomatic cases and mild cases along with confirmed cases have given approximately 100-130 million people in the US natural immunity.
    2. The virus in question already has a 99.5% survival rate.

    I know approximately a dozen people who have been injected with the investigational nanoparticle mRNA and DNA shots. That is not a lot, granted. And in every single case people have gotten sick as a result of receiving it. In one case, someone I am quite close to went to the ER with extreme chest pains. In another case, a woman’s lymph nodes swelled up so much she could not move her neck.

    Others have gotten dry coughs, fever, aches, pains, swelling, etc.. — what I would consider your basic course of illness.

    And what they each tell themselves is either “it was a very rare reaction”, or that they “would have gotten much sicker if they had been infected.”

    I don’t buy it, and for reasons which are perfectly scientifically sound. Whether from the gain of function bat virus, or from the mRNA hyperproduction of the spike protein, all of it can be proven to be the result of flooding the body with ACE 2 receptor blockers.

    Thank you for hearing me out. Also, I don’t know if 3 people I know who got the shots experienced any reactions because I didn’t talk to them about it.

  14. PaulinaUS says:

    Usernames, sorry.

  15. PaulinaUS says:

    “Ireland, Israel govts report 50% hospitalized with COVID are vaccinated. Govts want BOOSTERS?”
    ch: Dr. Sunheel Dhand

    Also, Dr. Peter McCullough has pointed out that those who have tested positive are being sent home with no knowledge of any potential treatments. If they get sick enough, they go to the hospital. This has been the protocol in the US and it is no wonder that if respiratory illness is not treated, then it may worsen in some cases.

    Peter McCullough, MD testifies to Texas Senate HHS Committee
    Mar 11, 2021
    ch: Association of American Physicians and Surgeons

    If what he is saying is correct, then this is yet another way that the harms from the gain of function bat virus have been artificially inflated. The othermeans of artificial inflation of C19 numbers are the death certificates which included suspected and probable cases of C19.

  16. jim2 says:

    All the people I know, including me and my wife, who have gotten vaccinated had no severe effects, just a sore shoulder. Sometimes I feel like I’m living in an alternate universe.

  17. E.M.Smith says:

    @Jim2:

    Some other data points:

    Florida Friend and his kid seem to have had no big issues.
    Son & DIL had no big issues.
    Spousal Twin & her kid had no big issues.

    At least, none of them have said anything bad happened.

    I think the issue is a mix of:

    1) Some injections may have hit in or near a major blood vessel instead of muscle capsule. (Failure to pull back on plunger to check for blood vs not before the push…) That would send the vaccine to cells all over the body.

    2) Some folks are lacking mRNAse so the half life of the mRNA injected is much much longer so the spike production is much much higher so the damage is greater and the side effects worse.

    3) Some folks have over the top immune reactions. (This is part of my reason for skipping… I react a LOT to a LOT of stuff. Allergies galore and some autoimmune issues especially in joints. I can ramp up arthritis by eating beef and tomato products.) Like folks allergic to PEG (found in shampoos and more) will “blow up” on the PEG in the nanoparticles. I’m pretty sure I’d be in the anaphylactic shock group… those folks who get the shot and pass out while swelling up…

    I don’t know if there are other modes too, or if the tendency to react more for some folks is a common thing, or not. I have reports from a medical receptionist of patients arriving with what look like mumps that is the known side effect in some folks as the lymph nodes swell up.

  18. Simon Derricutt says:

    Jim2 – my father-in-law also had no problem with the vaccine. No alternate universe, but maybe dependant on batch of vaccine, storage, and the skill of the people doing the injections. Maybe most people have no immediate problems, too. The reported problems are pretty low, even though far higher than traditional vaccines.

    Maybe some genetic problem, so some people react badly, too.

    My trust that any data is actually true and honest is much diminished. That’s the benefit of discussions here. There’s enough history between us that we can reasonably rely on the people telling the truth as they understand it. We may not always be right, but the chances are better.

  19. PaulinaUS says:

    We can live in the same universe if we quantify what we are saying.

    That is why I quantified my sample size, the severe reactions, the people who got sick, and the unknown reactions.

  20. PaulinaUS says:

    I would be very interested in how jim2 would describe the action of his elected investigational treatment. From the tip of the needle to the production of antibodies, what is the process set in motion.

  21. YMMV says:

    “Ivermectin can make up for the low use of vaccination. However, vaccination cannot make up for the low use of Ivermectin.”

    Credit for finding this quote goes to another ian (31 August 2021 at 1:21 am) in W.O.O.D. 11 August. Credit where credit is due.

    “living in an alternate universe.”

    Tell me about it. It seems everybody has their own, although sometimes they do cluster together.
    Everybody has their own experience, and that is okay. The problem is when they assume their own experience is the same for everybody else. Assumptions do not form a solid basis for science.

    For example the quote/paraphrase snippet (Dr. Been to EMS to Zeke) mentioned above:
    “being unvaccinated leaves you open to a Really Bad Day”

    If you have comorbidities, or are above a certain golden age, and so on, you really are very open to a really bad day. If not, then not so much and other risks are more immediate (including of course the risk of a really bad day from getting a vaccine “side effect”)

    I should find the Cool Hand Luke video clip “What we have here is a failure of communication.”
    No time like the present:

  22. jim2 says:

    PaulinaUS – in a nutshell, the lipid micelle merges with a cell. The mRNA payload is utilized to make spike protein, which then moves to the cell surface. There, the immune system recognizes the intruder protein and goes into action making antibodies. From distribution studies, most goes into muscle cells, but some also gets distributed throughout the body. Inflammation will occur wherever the spike protein is expressed on the cell surface. The mRNA lasts a day or two, and the spike proteins last about a week.

    Like EMS says, if the injection hits a blood vessel, the distribution will be a lot different, and that may account for some of the bad reactions. Also, for young people, the immune response may be a lot stronger than for older people, and that might account for the heart issues.

    This vaccine is far from perfect, but it does TEND to keep people out of the hospital.

    Readers of this blog are aware of some of the darker speculation on why the lies from our government in the US and others around the world – the darkest being the elite are trying to kill off half of us.

    I’ve come to believe at this point, the lies are due to noble cause corruption. Governmental entities believe new biology will bear wonderful fruits and desire to keep it well funded. I think that’s why they downplay ivermectin and ignore or don’t investigate some of the bad side effects. Also, some elements of government are in the pocket of Big Pharma. I believe these two ideas can account for what we are seeing. Lying is lying, killing is killing, no matter what, and it shouldn’t be happening.

  23. H.R. says:

    Mrs. H.R. got the two- jab ‘vaccine’. My son and daughter-in-law got the one-and-done jab.

    The Mrs. felt a bit “off” the next day, but that was about it. The kids felt flu-ish and not so peachy for two days after, then felt fine since then.

    That was it.

    I’m in the control group (by choice) and so far, everything has been fine for me. There was the drippy nose I mentioned a month ago. I wondered if that was from shed spike proteins, but I guess not. The weather moved to a hotter, more humid pattern and the nose has cleared up.

    The neighbors got jabbed. No problems there. That’s the limit of my sample population.

  24. PaulinaUS says:

    I have the favor of jim2’s response describing how the mRNA vac works. Thank you jim2.

    He described the proposed model of how the vac works in 5 sentences without even breaking a sweat. I am relieved to know that, based on how well he has described the action of the injection, he has done what he has done with informed consent.

  25. PaulinaUS says:

    A couple of comments please.

    “in a nutshell, the lipid micelle merges with a cell. The mRNA payload is utilized to make spike protein”

    This is my primary objection. The lipid nanoparticle with an mRNA packaged inside of it which instructs the cell to manufacture the Spike 1 protein (to me) has the very same structure and the very same action of a live virus.

    The lipid nanoparticle is the same as the capsid of a virus, and the mRNA content is the same as a very active nucleic acid. A virus enters the cell based on the size of its capsid in nanometers, and then instructs the cell to manufacture or reproduce its own nucleic acid. It produces what the virus instructs it to, until the cell bursts or the newly created virus’ bud on the cell wall. But our cells then are not producing what they are naturally supposed to produce, so it is a double problem.

    This should not be legal. This is for all the world a manmade lipid nanoparticle virus. No one should be consenting to this structure of nanoparticle/mRNA invasion of their cells.

  26. rhoda klapp says:

    ossqss “So, 2 top FDA vaccine folks are jumping ship? ”

    Or entering the government side of the revolving door before coming out on the Big Pharma side?

    Jim2 ” I think that’s why they downplay ivermectin ”

    IVM may be a threat not only to the covid vaccines but also to the flu business. And maybe other viruses. Just wondering. Noble cause or follow the money I can’t tell.

  27. PaulinaUS says:

    “The mRNA lasts a day or two, and the spike proteins last about a week.”

    This is proposed, but how long will the cells continue to produce the S1 protein? And in what quantities?

    I believe this is one of the investigational aspects of this treatment.

  28. PaulinaUS says:

    “From distribution studies, most goes into muscle cells, but some also gets distributed throughout the body. Inflammation will occur wherever the spike protein is expressed on the cell surface.”

    I want to point out that the so-called spike protein is not a harmless bit of a virus, but a very active drug called an ACE 2 receptor blocker.

    Many cells in the body have ACE 2 receptors on their surfaces. Some cells are more rich in ACE2 receptors. The inflammation in many parts of the body are almost certainly the the result of a sudden dose of ACE II receptor blockers in some unknown quantity manufactured in the host cells.

  29. PaulinaUS says:

    For some unknown duration.

  30. PaulinaUS says:

    The body naturally produces ACE 2 agonists or antagonists all of the time. These dock in their receptors night and day, maintaining the body’s sodium-water balance.

    What will happen when the body’s natural ligands are blocked by the fake ACE2 blocker? I dearly hope the cells stop producing the S1, and that it is all cleared quite quickly from the receptors, and that the macrophages grab and dissolve every nanoparticle it ever sees from now into perpetuity.

    But I do not think any one can say yet what the long term effects of disrupting the ACE2 receptors in this way are.

    This will be disrupting the entire Renin-Angiotensin system, in my view. That is your body’s salt-fluid balance.

  31. Paul, Somerset says:

    Uh oh. Is this ADE I see before me?

    LINK:https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.22.457114v1.full.pdf

    “Although Pfizer-BioNTech BNT162b2-immune sera neutralized the Delta variant, when four common mutations were introduced into the receptor binding domain (RBD) of the Delta variant (Delta 4+), some BNT162b2-immune sera lost neutralizing activity and enhanced the infectivity.”

    Yes, it surely is.

    Is this likely to begin affecting the vaccinated imminently though?

    “Given the fact that a Delta variant with three similar RBD mutations has already emerged according to the GISAID database, it is necessary to develop vaccines that protect against such complete breakthrough variants.”

    Who knows?

  32. cdquarles says:

    @jim2,
    I’d invert that statement about “Big” pharma. Much of pharma is in the pocket of big government. Governments with too much power can and do pick winners and losers. What company wants to be on the BOHICA receiving end of what bureaucrats can and will do to them if they don’t “accept that offer that they can’t refuse”, so to speak. That portion which isn’t, it seems that the people involved agree philosophically, in terms of premises, with the bureaucrats/politicians.

  33. E.M.Smith says:

    @PaulinaUS:

    A couple of differences between the lipid nano-particles and a real virus:

    1) The mRNA ONLY codes for a PARTIAL spike protein. It does NOT make any of the rest of the virus (capsid, shell, reverse transcriptase, etc.). The partial spike doesn’t do nearly as much as the actual virus spike. It can not let other RNA into a cell and does not make new nanoparticles of lipids, for example.

    2) It does NOT spread to other cells and continue spreading. mRNA breaks down very rapidly in most folks. We have an enzyme to do just that: mRNAse. (Some few folks are missing that enzyme and have a worse time of it as the mRNA lasts longer and they get a higher virus load). You get a limited dose of spike proteins produced.

    3) Total spike protein load is (supposedly) just enough to get an immune response when you run out of mRNA for it.

  34. David A says:

    Jim2 says “ All the people I know, including me and my wife, who have gotten vaccinated had no severe effects, just a sore shoulder. Sometimes I feel like I’m living in an alternate universe.

    Many say the very same about Covid. Chevrolet has sold what, 160,000 Bolts. Seven caught fire, and they all were recalled.

    About 165 million Americans are vaccinated.

  35. PaulinaUS says:

    EM says, “A couple of differences between the lipid nano-particles and a real virus:
    1) The mRNA ONLY codes for a PARTIAL spike protein. It does NOT make any of the rest of the virus (capsid, shell, reverse transcriptase, etc.). The partial spike doesn’t do nearly as much as the actual virus spike. It can not let other RNA into a cell and does not make new nanoparticles of lipids, for example.”

    I do not suggest that the mRNA or the lipid nanoparticle are re-assembled to make a complete virus, and then released from the hijacked cell, as in some types of wild virus.

    What I do suggest is that the S1protein/mRNA directs the cell to make an unknown amount of the ACE2 receptor blocker. These are finding their way to the receptors throughout the body, such as in the heart, the lining, the intestines, the brain and the lymph nodes for example. All of these cells have receptors for the ACE2 ligand which the body naturally produces day in and day out. The complications and adverse reactions in these areas is extremely strong circumstantial evidence for the fact that the S1 being produced is complete and is blocking cell receptors in these and other cells in the body.

    I suggest that the majority of the symptoms from the original gain of function bat virus are from the ACE2 receptor blocker, the so-called spike or peplomer.

    I suggest that they simply took the spike and put instructions in the mRNA to produce an ACE2 receptor blocker, claiming that it will produce an immune response.

    I do not believe it is a partial spike that is produced, for reasons stated above, and also because many explanations of the action of the virus do not include a very clear description of how much of the spike/ACE2 receptor blocker that is produced. I do not believe that I am required to overlook the symptoms from the vacs which resemble the inflammation caused by ACE2 blocking drugs, nor simply accept that a full-on receptor blocker has not been produced in the experimental injections.

    So to sum, it is very much like a virus in its manner of breaking and entering, and in its ability to cause the host cell to mass produce its instructions via RNA or DNA strand.

    In that I am correct.

    Once the breaking and entering of the cell walls has been accomplished, it is possible that the cell produces the ACE2 receptor blocker until it bursts open and releases them. Some wild virus’ do that.

  36. PaulinaUS says:

    Let me make one more argument regarding whether it is a partial ACE2 receptor blocker, or a complete ACE2 receptor blocker.

  37. PaulinaUS says:

    One tiny tweek in a molecule allows drug manufacturers to claim it is a different drug. The same could, possibly, if I am correct, be said of a receptor blocker.

    Although the fit of a ligand and a receptor is incredibly complex — far more complex than a key and a lock — and there should not be much wiggle room.

  38. PaulinaUS says:

    Reference, let’s see the references please. (:

    Link:https://www.judicialwatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/JW-v-HHS-NIAID-Wuhan-June-2021-00692-pgs-235-236.pdf

    This is a part of the emails between Dr Falsi and the W I V obtained by Tom Fitton of Judicial Watch through FOIA request.

    It says,

    October 2013
    Bats as animal reservoirs for the SARS
    coronavirus: hypothesis proved after 10
    years of virus hunting
    • Manli Wang,
    • ZhihongHu
    Download PDF (347 KB)
    Abstract
    Recently, the team led by Dr. Zhengli Shi from Wuhan Institute of Virology, Chinese Academy
    of Sciences, and Dr. Peter Daszak from Ecohealth Alliance identified SL-Co V s in Chinese
    horseshoe bats that were 95% identical to human SARS-Co V and were able to use human
    angiotensin-converting enzyme 2 (ACE2) receptor for docking and entry. Remarkably, they
    isolated the first known live bat SL-CoV that replicates in human and related cells. Their
    findings provide clear evidence that some SL-Co V s circulating in bats are capable of infecting
    and replicating in human (Ge X Y, et al., 2013).

  39. E.M.Smith says:

    @PaulinaUS:

    Binding to the ACE2 receptor is orthogonal to full / partial spike. I’m fairly certain both bind. I also know that Ivermectin has been shown to bind to both the spike protein AND the ACE2 receptor (though likely a weak bond). There’s other stuff that’s ACE2 binding as well. Bioflavanoids and polyphenols for example.

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34020130/

    The interaction of the bioflavonoids with five SARS-CoV-2 proteins targets: An in silico study
    Ganesh Prasad Mishra 1, Rajendra N Bhadane 2, Debadash Panigrahi 3, Haneen A Amawi 4, Charles R Asbhy Jr 5, Amit K Tiwari 6

    PMID: 34020130 PMCID: PMC8108478 DOI: 10.1016/j.compbiomed.2021.104464

    Abstract
    Flavonoids have been shown to have antioxidant, anti-inflammatory, anti-proliferative, antibacterial and antiviral efficacy. Therefore, in this study, we choose 85 flavonoid compounds and screened them to determine their in-silico interaction with protein targets crucial for SARS-CoV-2 infection. The five important targets chosen were the main protease (Mpro), Spike receptor binding domain (Spike-RBD), RNA – dependent RNA polymerase (RdRp or Nsp12), non-structural protein 15 (Nsp15) of SARS-CoV-2 and the host angiotensin converting enzyme-2 (ACE-2) spike-RBD binding domain. The compounds were initially docked at the selected sites and further evaluated for binding free energy, using the molecular mechanics/generalized Born surface area (MMGBSA) method. The three compounds with the best binding scores were subjected to molecular dynamics (MD) simulations. The compound, tribuloside, had a high average binding free energy of -86.99 and -88.98 kcal/mol for Mpro and Nsp12, respectively. The compound, legalon, had an average binding free energy of -59.02 kcal/mol at the ACE2 spike-RBD binding site. The compound, isosilybin, had an average free binding energy of -63.06 kcal/mol for the Spike-RBD protein. Overall, our results suggest that tribuloside, legalon and isosilybin should be evaluated in future studies to determine their efficacy to inhibit SARS-CoV-2 infectivity.

    Keywords: Binding free energy; Docking; Flavonoids; MMGBSA; Molecular dynamics (MD); SARS-CoV-2.

    (Yes, talking about binding to the spike, but that stops it binding to ACE2, and it shows that a lot of flavenoids have a shape that acts in that size / area / shape of site).

    Even pomegranate peel, though the article doesn’t say if it is binding to ACE2 or the Spike (or both as does ivermectin).

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8114579/

    A large number of plant-derived compounds are under investigation for their potential therapeutic effects against SARS-CoV-2. Many reports based on molecular docking analysis suggested the potential capacity of polyphenols, such as curcumin, kaempferol, catechin, naringenin, quercetin (Khaerunnisa et al., 2020) or hesperidin, rutin, and diosmin (Adem et al., 2020) to inhibit the activity of SARS-CoV-2 main protease, and consequently, the virus replication. One study also suggested that the binding of two polyphenols, punicalagin (PC), and theaflavin, to the S protein, could be exploited as a strategy to inhibit the virus’s entry into human cells (Bhatia et al., 2020).

    And a load of drugs:

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32754161/

    Identification of SARS-CoV-2 Cell Entry Inhibitors by Drug Repurposing Using in silico Structure-Based Virtual Screening Approach

    Shweta Choudhary 1, Yashpal S Malik 2, Shailly Tomar 1

    PMID: 32754161 PMCID: PMC7365927 DOI: 10.3389/fimmu.2020.01664

    Abstract
    The rapidly spreading, highly contagious and pathogenic SARS-coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) associated Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) has been declared as a pandemic by the World Health Organization (WHO). The novel 2019 SARS-CoV-2 enters the host cell by binding of the viral surface spike glycoprotein (S-protein) to cellular angiotensin converting enzyme 2 (ACE2) receptor. The virus specific molecular interaction with the host cell represents a promising therapeutic target for identifying SARS-CoV-2 antiviral drugs. The repurposing of drugs can provide a rapid and potential cure toward exponentially expanding COVID-19. Thereto, high throughput virtual screening approach was used to investigate FDA approved LOPAC library drugs against both the receptor binding domain of spike protein (S-RBD) and ACE2 host cell receptor. Primary screening identified a few promising molecules for both the targets, which were further analyzed in details by their binding energy, binding modes through molecular docking, dynamics and simulations. Evidently, GR 127935 hydrochloride hydrate, GNF-5, RS504393, TNP, and eptifibatide acetate were found binding to virus binding motifs of ACE2 receptor. Additionally, KT203, BMS195614, KT185, RS504393, and GSK1838705A were identified to bind at the receptor binding site on the viral S-protein. These identified molecules may effectively assist in controlling the rapid spread of SARS-CoV-2 by not only potentially inhibiting the virus at entry step but are also hypothesized to act as anti-inflammatory agents, which could impart relief in lung inflammation. Timely identification and determination of an effective drug to combat and tranquilize the COVID-19 global crisis is the utmost need of hour. Further, prompt in vivo testing to validate the anti-SARS-CoV-2 inhibition efficiency by these molecules could save lives is justified.

    I suspect that the ACE2 receptor being tickled by so much stuff means that it isn’t a catastrophe if you get so much stuff binding to it. Otherwise those already approved drugs that bind to it would not have made it through approval, and all the folks taking those Billions of doses of Ivermectin that have been curing parasites and river blindness would not feel so good. BTW, I’ve been on Ivermectin at modestly high dose (2 x the FLCCC) for over a year now. I have noticed exactly nothing in the way of side effects.

    Note that ACE2 works in balance with ACE1, so you MUST also know what’s happening to ACE1 to know if ACE2 binding does anything at all:
    https://www.asbmb.org/asbmb-today/science/051620/what-is-the-ace2-receptor

    What are ACE inhibitors? Are they a possible treatment or prophylactic for SARS-CoV-2?
    Angiotensin converting enzyme (ACE, aka ACE1) is another protein, also found in tissues such as the lung and heart, where ACE2 is present. Drugs that inhibit the actions of ACE1 are called ACE inhibitors. Examples of these drugs are ramipril, lisinopril, and enalapril. These drugs block the actions of ACE1 but not ACE2. ACE1 drives the production of ANG II. In effect, ACE1 and ACE2 have a “yin-yang” relationship; ACE1 increases the amount of ANG II, whereas ACE2 reduces ANG II.

    By inhibiting ACE1, ACE inhibitors reduce the levels of ANG II and its ability to increase blood pressure and tissue injury. ACE inhibitors are commonly prescribed for patients with hypertension, heart failure and kidney disease.

    Another commonly prescribed class of drugs, angiotensin receptor blockers (ARBs, e.g., losartan, valsartan, etc.) have similar effects to ACE inhibitors and may also be useful in treating COVID-19.

    Evidence for a protective effect of ACE inhibitors and angiotensin receptor blockers in patients with COVID-19 was shown in recent work co-authored by one of us – Dr. Loomba.

    No evidence exists to suggest prophylactic use of these drugs; we do not advise readers to take these drugs in the hopes that they will prevent COVID-19. We wish to emphasize that patients should only take these drugs as instructed by their health care provider.

    So for things like Ivermectin, I’ve seen no discussion of any tendency to also bind to ACE 1 receptors. For the biologicals, especially, they come typically as a large swath of chemicals of several types extracted from some plant. Do they have stuff in them that binds to both?

    So you can’t just look at ACE2 binding and be done (or panic about it). Ivermectin is known to reduce inflammation, so binding to ACE2 (that ought to increase it) is clearly being offset by some other mode of action.

    This statement has a few fuzzy bits in it that look like you expect mRNA to act the same way as viral RNA and thus act like a virus:

    The lipid nanoparticle is the same as the capsid of a virus, and the mRNA content is the same as a very active nucleic acid. A virus enters the cell based on the size of its capsid in nanometers, and then instructs the cell to manufacture or reproduce its own nucleic acid. It produces what the virus instructs it to, until the cell bursts or the newly created virus’ bud on the cell wall. But our cells then are not producing what they are naturally supposed to produce, so it is a double problem.

    The vaccine delivers mRNA – MESSENGER RNA, not RNA. The mRNA is NOT REPLICATED. There is no exponential growth phase. You get a bit of mRNA in the cell, it is used to make a few copies of PROTEIN ONLY, and then is disposed. (Most folks have mRNAse enzyme looking to gobble up mRNA in short order, a very few do not and they may have some added issues from that.

    So no, the cells do not explode dumping out a giant load of stuff. Yes some spike proteins migrate to the surface and can cause various problems there (such as in the epithelium of the blood vessels causing clotting).

    We may simply be inadvertently selecting for people with working mRNAse and against those lacking the mRNAse enzyme… So your supposed “problem” may exist for them if the mRNA lifetime is long enough in their cells. But they are a tiny part of the population from what I’ve read (could use more data on that… and if it is YOU, it is 100% of YOU, so I’m not thrilled with that ‘selection’ process…)

    @Per partial spike:

    It has been WIDELY reported (and I’ve cited a few papers here over the months saying it) that the vaccine only reproduces a PARTIAL spike protein. That’s part of the “feature” of it. Unfortunately, that also seems to be part of the viral escape path. Slightly change that part of the spike but leave the rest working just fine. There is NO DOUBT that the vaccines produce a partial spike. They even swap a couple of amino acids in it to deactivate some of the functions (paper cited in prior artricles).

    Summarizing:

    I think the question of degree of ACE2 receptor binding by the spike protein of the vaccine does matter, but not to the point of lethality or even significant disease in most folks.

    The spike protein produced by the vaccines is a partly deactivated portion of the whole virus spike protein (and of unknown ACE2 binding in what I’ve read so far – anyone want to Dig Here! on that?)

    LOTS of things bind to ACE2 without causing diseases or even discomfort of note.

    IF you don’t know the ACE1 status you don’t know what ACE2 binding will do.

    It is valid to ask about / explore vaccine spike ACE2 binding, but clearly it is just not an issue for a huge number / percent of the folks getting the jab. But perhaps in a small cohort with unusual genotypes …

  40. E.M.Smith says:

    @PaulinaUS:

    Um, you are citing a note about SARS – 1 in a discussion about SARS – 2. It is meaningless in this context. We all know that SARS 1 & 2 bind to ACE2 and infect humans. There’s nothing more of interest in that PDF email.

  41. E.M.Smith says:

    @Paul, Somerset:

    Yup! Sure looks like the early stage of ADE to me.

  42. tom0mason says:

    Mary Holland states some salient ideas at the UN about ‘mandatory’ and ‘coercive’ measures for vaccination …

  43. H.R. says:

    Ummm… PaulinaUS… the mother@$%#-son of a &%#$- @#$%-ing -Whore spawned – $%!@!…
    and be it noted @#!&-ing Dick &%$! murderous #@!&% dog F$#&@ng souless %$#&…

    … Dr. FauXi… should be relieved of duty by [deleted] trepanation, the sooner the better before millions more die from his delusions of ultra-intelligence (HA!) grandeur.

    Obviously, the hubris is great in that one, so FauXi may need a little nudge in the proper direction from someone who is righteously and royally PO’d at the joyous killer of w-a-a-a-y too many people.

    (For those who can’t read between the lines, Mussolini’s ending would be too dignified for our Dr. FauXi… IMHO, of course. Not that I intend to directly do any harm to Dr. FauXi. However, I wouldn’t mourn his loss for very long if someone else was inclined to arrange his abrupt meeting with St. Peter.)

    SPIT!!

    [Reply: Please refrain from direct exhortations to violence or endorsement of a criminal act. -E.M.S.]

  44. H.R. says:

    Uh… anyone picking up on my somewhat negative vibe towards Dr. FauXi?

    I’m not in favor of him so much as being in charge of making peanut butter sandwiches for a Den of Cub Scouts.

    I… dislike him.

  45. PaulinaUS says:

    The pdf is significant to me because it is from 2013 and describes the hunt by the W I V to find a coronavirus that infects both animals and humans. In this case bats but also pigs. I believe this verifies that there was gain of function work done with this current virus.

    Gain of function means increasing transmissabllity, or virulence.

    Dr. Falsi has testified to Congress that he has not funded gain of function with the bat virus.

  46. PaulinaUS says:

    Why H.R., we need to work on your keysmash.
    “For the perfect key smash, use the “Home Keys” on your keyboard; this includes the letters a,s,d,f,j,k,l,; as well as g and h. The typical start letters are “a” and “j” but any of the Home Keys can be used.”

    No I am just kidding, I understood what you are saying (; and I never understood how one single expert was making the medical judgments for the whole country. Especially him.

  47. PaulinaUS says:

    Well Chief, that is a lot of detail to work out. A very good workspace here and a lot of great commenters.

    There are answers to our questions.

    I certainly do not claim to understand the Renin-Angiotensin System fully. Not even close.

    Probably the difference between me and others is that I don’t think the drs and chemists and pharmaceutical companies do perfectly either.

  48. E.M.Smith says:

    @PaulinaUS:

    My apologies. I had an out of place “blockquote” that sent the last half of my long comment into Odd Land. Please take a second look now that I’ve “fixed it”…

  49. E.M.Smith says:

    @Tom0Mason:

    That Mary Holland Video is a real keeper! Nicely lays out the illegality of vaccine mandates… and the immorality of them.

  50. H.R. says:

    @E.M. – well… I thought I was skirting the line without crossing it – maybe so, maybe not – but I’ve vented a bit and I’ll tone it down hereafter.

    Howz ’bout “I fart in FauXi’s general direction?”

  51. Gail Combs says:

    I have seen so many vids and read so much, I can not remember where I saw/heard this…
    However one doctor noted that the virus attacks your weaknesses. If you have allergies/asthma it is the lungs, poor heart condition, it is the heart, arthritis it is the joints…

    This guy, Ryan Cole MD is really good:
    https://rumble.com/vkopys-a-pathologist-summary-of-what-these-jabs-do-to-the-brain-and-other-organs.html

  52. E.M.Smith says:

    @H.R.:

    I only removed a word or two and a number… so very close. No worries, eh? I’ll re-make a comment to “toe the line” if needed… Maybe I ought to open another blog on a less restrictive platform that allows the “Wild West” of old… I’m all for Complete Libertarianism…

    At Apple, in about 1985? or so, there was an application written named “Rumor Monger”. ANYONE could put a statement into it and it would flow, peer to peer, over the network with anonymity. Needless to say once those comments began to “talk dirt” about executives, well… So a plan was hatched, which I was part of implementing…, to issue a “new release”. After it was on ALL machines, the kill switch hidden in it was thrown and Rumor Monger died of suicide. It was the only way to kill it…

    Any wonder why I’m suspicious of things like a “vaccine” that needs increasing “updates” of boosters and such to prevent your death? ‘Cause I know how to do “the forbidden experiments”…

    So “stay under the RADAR and ‘fly right’ and all will be OK…”

  53. David A says:

    Gail, we were talking about another Dr Cole video on the other thread. Yes, I like him as well.

    This post explains a great deal about hospital treatment limits…

    “If the hospital or physician refuses to treat you with anything other than Remdesivir (which has an EUA still outstanding despite failing said trials), dexamethasone, oxygen and a ventilator (which, you remember, Trump bought tens of thousands of for this explicit purpose under the DPA) they are immune from all legal action you may take due to their negligence, even if they KNOW there are other treatment options that, on the science, work.

    If they use those options they lose the PREP Act immunity.”

    Here is the link….

    https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=243387

    This is a big story and appears accurate.

  54. Ossqss says:

    @ Gail, I would tell upon talking with my neighbor, who overcame the blight with IVM, he referenced incredible pain in his shoulder joints for a day that was very difficult. Almost like the disease was searching for a vulnerability anywhere.

    I have pretty much arrived at, this is not a natural occurring phenomenon. The question is, is it dynamic in its ways. A smart virus if you will.

    Now we see the precursor coming out of S. Africa. Don’t forget about Lambda too.

    Coming to an inbox near you soon.

  55. H.R. says:

    Gail Combs: “I have seen so many vids and read so much, I can not remember where I saw/heard this…
    However one doctor noted that the virus attacks your weaknesses. If you have allergies/asthma it is the lungs, poor heart condition, it is the heart, arthritis it is the joints…”


    I’d marveled at the propensity of the virus to exploit weaknesses some time ago. That seems to be its most amazing, and consequently deadly, feature of the bug.

    It is not a one trick pony. For anyone who has shored up their immune system, the ‘Rona seems to be merely an annoyance. It seems most likely to hit people with respiratory or heart weaknesses, such as the elderly, and using fat cells, overweight people. Well, just look at America’s collective waistline and it’s a perfect bug for the U.S. of A.

    I’ve read the rumors, speculation, evidence, inferences, and whatnot about it all being a result of Gain Of Function research. What makes me think all the rumors and speculation are true is that it seems such an odd little beastie to arise in nature but a good first effort if someone were trying to produce a thoroughly vexing virus for a wide swath of of the Earth’s population.

  56. Ossqss says:

    I just can’t stop my mouse :-)

  57. cdquarles says:

    @David A,
    Sundance at CTH has also picked up on the PREP Act. Hmm, somehow I missed that one. See here: https://theconservativetreehouse.com/blog/2021/08/31/hhs-amends-prep-act-liability-waiver-to-cover-only-nih-approved-treatments-for-covid-19/, also posted on WOOD.

  58. H.R. says:

    Ossqss: “The question is, is it dynamic in its ways. A smart virus if you will.”

    Ha, your post appeared when the page refreshed after I hit ‘Post.’ We seem to be reading the same book.

    Yes, indeedy. A dynamic, smart bug. We are both circling the same bush. There’s a snake somewhere in that bush, eh?

    I don’t think we’re the only ones with our hackles raised. Gail just above, and others have tried to put their finger on what’s making us uneasy.
    ak
    Everything: the bug, symptoms, virulence, treatments, ‘vaccines’ and whatnot are so all over the place, it’s just hard to to gather up the bits and start seeing that perhaps there is a pattern.

    OTOH, it’s nice to know that, like the Afghanistan debacle, it’s all Trump’s fault, innit?. /sarc

  59. The True Nolan says:

    @H.R. “Yes, indeedy. A dynamic, smart bug.”

    Certainly possible — but also possible that there are multiple bugs and/or multiple vaccines. If I were an evil biowarfare scientist, or an evil pharmaceutical manufacturer I would try for multiples. The biowarfare guy gets to see how various bugs work in the real world. The manufacturer gets not only to test various flavors, but also has plausible deniability for at some types of accusations. “Graphene oxide? Of course not! Let’s just analyze this other vial from (quickly consulting notes on distribution patterns) uh, Scotland! Look! No graphene!”

    One very slight bit of info that weakly indicates to me the possibility of differing bugs/vaccines is the odd clustering of cases. The early spikes in Iran and Italy, the odd assisted living homes where there were VERY high numbers of deaths from either the bug or the vaccine. How can you have COVID burning through the leaders of Iran but other governments relatively untouched? If COVID has a 97% survival rate for elders, how many homes would we have to look at before we had reports of 10 out of 20 patients dead? I am NOT saying that the clustering is proof of multiple bugs or vaccines, only that it is consistent with what we would expect.

  60. The True Nolan says:

    This maybe should be better placed at the W.O.O.D. topic, but in light of EM’s reminder that calls for bad things are, uh, imprudent, I thought I might place it here. This commenter, “Patriot Nurse” makes a good reminder that we citizens still have TWO Constitutional, non-violent courses of action — a Constitutional Convention and secession.
    https(semicolon)//www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MoeVr3WrUg

  61. E.M.Smith says:

    @TTN:

    The Constitution already says elections are to happen on ONE day only and that ONLY State Legislatures can change the rules. Both were ignored by the Executive AND Legislative AND Judicial branches of government.

    So not seeing how a Constitutional Convention is going to fix anything… especially with this crop of weasels.

    Is there any way to forcibly eject a few States? “Involuntary Succession”? Say New England and the West Coast…

  62. The True Nolan says:

    @EM: “Is there any way to forcibly eject a few States? “Involuntary Succession”? Say New England and the West Coast…”

    As an old school southerner (what used to be referred to as a “Southron” some long time ago) I wanted a tee shirt with a picture of the US, but with the north-eastern quarter detached and moved slightly off from the rest. The caption would be “I support Northern secession”. These days, the picture would be a bit more complicated, and the caption would have to read something like “I support Progressive secession”. I think I am joking, but I am not completely sure.

  63. PaulinaUS says:

    I said, “The lipid nanoparticle is the same as the capsid of a virus, and the mRNA content is the same as a very active nucleic acid. A virus enters the cell based on the size of its capsid in nanometers, and then instructs the cell to manufacture or reproduce its own nucleic acid. It produces what the virus instructs it to, until the cell bursts or the newly created virus’ bud on the cell wall. But our cells then are not producing what they are naturally supposed to produce, so it is a double problem.”

    EM said, “The vaccine delivers mRNA – MESSENGER RNA, not RNA. The mRNA is NOT REPLICATED. There is no exponential growth phase. You get a bit of mRNA in the cell, it is used to make a few copies of PROTEIN ONLY, and then is disposed.”

    No but the basic argument is that a lipid nanoparticle crosses the cell membrane, and the mRNA instructs the cell to manufacture the ACE 2 blocker. This is the same action as a virus, only the drug manufacturers are the ones creating the lipid nanoparticle, and then placing the orders. I never said the mRNA was replicated. It does not have to be. The definition of a manmade virus should include anything that is a certain size (say 18-400 nm) and contains instructions for the cell. Simple.

    Not only is it hijacking the cell, the instructions it is giving is for a very physiologically active substance. That is huge. It is a receptor blocker. I don’t think any one should skip over that fact. What next, SSRI’s, blocking the serotonin receptors? Anti-psychotics blocking the dopamine receptors?

    So no, no one should be consenting to allow these nanoparticle injections to hijack their cells and produce a receptor blocker. It enters the cell and causes production of a drug in unknown amounts
    and for unknown durations. It is clearly travelling in the extracellular fluid throughout the body and causing stress to all the cells that posses the ACE receptor. There is no wonder that there have been so many disastrous problems. ACE blocking drugs must be monitored closely and used in tiny doses to see the patient’s response. Not only that but there are long term and short term problems with the ACE blockers, and there are interactions with other drugs.

    I am arguing against this entire process. It is a parallel to the action of a virus, but not literally reproducing the capsid or the nucleic acid. But it possesses both and takes control of what the cell produces by force.

  64. PaulinaUS says:

    It’s horse manure.

    And thank you for listening to my personal objections, and allowing me some right of reply.

  65. Ossqss says:

    Soooo, if we could produce a Vaxx that was effective against the common cold (Coronavirus), where is it? Just sayin,,,, been tryin for quite some time.

  66. YMMV says:

    A new paper on how the spike protein is bad.
    “Researchers Show How SARS-COV-2 Spike Protein Causes Acute Lung Injury in Mice”

    Note however that the thing in this paper which is shown to create a cytotoxic storm is the S1 part of the spike protein when joined with a human ACE2 receptor. The whole spike protein on its own is not so bad (for this). But the S1 part of the whole spike protein is cleaved off when it joins with the ACE2 receptor. That part is a bit fuzzy to me. But the general point of the paper is that this is the first time that the production of the cytotoxic storm has been demonstrated.

    The paper the video refers to: https://journals.physiology.org/doi/pdf/10.1152/ajplung.00223.2021

    Interesting — for YT lawyers undoubtably — this disclaimer is repeated four times in the video’s descriptive text:

    This video is not intended to provide assessment, diagnosis, treatment, or medical advice; it also does not constitute provision of healthcare services. The content provided in this video is for informational and educational purposes only.
    Please consult with a physician or healthcare professional regarding any medical or mental health related diagnosis or treatment. No information in this video should ever be considered as a substitute for advice from a healthcare professional. …

  67. jim2 says:

    An estimated 10% to 30% of people who get COVID-19 suffer from lingering symptoms of the disease, or what’s known as “long COVID.”

    Judy Dodd, who lives in New York City, is one of them. She spent nearly a year plagued by headaches, shortness of breath, extreme fatigue and problems with smell, among other symptoms.

    She says she worried that this “slog through life” was going to be her new normal.

    Everything changed after she got her COVID-19 vaccine.

    “I was like a new person, it was the craziest thing ever,” says Dodd, referring to how many of her health problems subsided significantly after her second shot.

    And she’s not alone. As the U.S. pushes to get people vaccinated, a curious benefit is emerging for those with this post-illness syndrome: Their symptoms are easing and, in some cases, fully resolving after they get vaccinated.

    https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/03/31/982799452/mysterious-ailment-mysterious-relief-vaccines-help-some-covid-long-haulers

  68. jim2 says:

    Results from a new cell study suggest that the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein can bring about long-term gene expression changes. The findings could help explain why some COVID-19 patients—referred to as COVID long-haulers—experience symptoms such as shortness of breath and dizziness long after clearing the infection.

    SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, is covered in tiny spike proteins. During infection, the spike proteins bind with receptors on cells in our body, starting a process that allows the virus to release its genetic material into the inside of the healthy cell.
    Courtesy of Julie A. Forrest
    Research team members included undergraduate student Ethan Salazar, principal investigator Sharilyn Almodovar and master’s student Nicholas Evans.

    “We found that exposure to the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein alone was enough to change baseline gene expression in airway cells,” said Nicholas Evans, a master’s student in the laboratory of Sharilyn Almodovar, PhD, at the Texas Tech University Health Sciences Center. “This suggests that symptoms seen in patients may initially result from the spike protein interacting with the cells directly.”

    https://www.asbmb.org/asbmb-today/science/043021/gene-changes-and-long-haul-covid

  69. jim2 says:

    @YMMV says:2 September 2021 at 5:55 am A new paper on how the spike protein is bad.

    The S1 unit of the vaccine spike is bound to the S2 unit. The S1 unit of viral spike dissociate from the S2 unit. This is part of the process by which the viral payload is moved into the target cell. So people with a natural infection will have isolated S1 units in their system, whereas vaccinated individuals won’t.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41541-021-00369-6

  70. David A says:

    Nevertheless the spike protein itself is a problem.

    “ The spike protein that is part of Covid-19, and which all the current vaccines instruct your body to produce is, by itself, pathogenic. This was first published as a pre-print, it came out before we went on a wild jabbing spree, the original study that set off the alarm bells came in September of 2020 and when the study work was done it was dismissed by many as being “not peer reviewed” (who remember, endorsed a whole bunch of other bull**** such as masks, denial of early treatments and so on.)

    Well, that excuse is gone now. Two articles, both now published, and which I originally discussed as pre-prints before we mass-jabbed people are now out in public and published form here and here.

    Both demonstrate quite-conclusively that the spike protein alone, absent the rest of Covid-19 “the virus”, is pathogenic.

    Again, in case you missed it further up near the top, all of the current vaccines deliberately produce that spike protein, which by itself causes disease, specifically clotting-related disease, in your body. Deliberately causing your body to produce that pathogen (which then elicits the antibody response) is how all of them work.

    This means there is no safe way to vaccinate against this disease because introducing the spike into your body, no matter how you do it, inherently runs the risk of serious clotting-based disorders. You might or might not get nailed but there is no avoiding the risk. That same risk is what kills you, most of the time, if you actually get Covid-19 and die but the premise that you avoid that risk when taking a jab is a lie. You cannot; the risk is inherent in introducing the spike into your circulation and there is no way around that with an IM injection because the muscles of the body are very well-perfused (that is, there’s a lot of blood flow in them) even if the person who performs the injection does not hit a blood vessel, and they might.

    These facts are not up for debate on a scientific basis any longer. They also fully explain the myocarditis, pericarditis and myriad other so-called “rare” events that occur with these jabs such as strokes, heart attacks and other clotting-based disorders. In addition the data is that the 2nd shot in the 2-shot series is much more dangerous than the first, which implies an exponential expansion of risk.

    Whether that expansion of risk bleeds back off over a couple of months or so is entirely unknown as it has not been studied. Without a data set of hundreds of thousands (so as to get statistical significance) and both baseline and follow-up d-Dimer testing, at minimum, we will never be able to put numbers on this, nor get a decay rate on the risk if it decays, and nobody is doing those studies.”

    Two links. https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/ajplung.00223.2021

    https://portlandpress.com/bioscirep/article/41/8/BSR20210611/229418/SARS-CoV-2-spike-protein-S1-induces-fibrin-ogen

    Long Covid is not good, There is evidence that Ivermectin is effective there as well.
    Long vaccine may well be quite a peril EM as well.

  71. E.M.Smith says:

    @Jim2:

    That nature paper is a good one. I love the detail on how the virus is actually assembled (though some bits of cellular machinery are things I’ve not heard of for about 45 years… my last bio classes…)

    You say the vaccinated folks don’t have isolated S1, but Fig.1 it shows some isolated unit shedding and says:

    b Transfected cells: Biosynthesis of S occurs in the absence of interactions with other viral proteins. Proteolytic cleavage into S1 and S2 occurs in the TGN similar to that in infected cells, but some shedding of cleaved S1 and conversion of S2 into its post-fusion structure (S2*) may occur in the absence of stabilizing mutations.

    Which seems counter to your point. Or is the key in the size of “some”?

    Also from that nature paper:

    Despite incompletely resolved questions (e.g. duration of immunity, prevention of transmission, and protection against emerging virus variants) the availability of effective COVID-19 vaccines is an enormous relief and certainly a great success story already now.

    I think we now have OK resolution on some of those points. My estimate:

    1) Duration of immunity? About 9 months.
    2) Prevention of transmission? Nope. Delta ended that.
    3) Protection against emerging virus variants? Not at all. In fact, promotes them by suppression of the Alpha and other less aggressive variants.

    At this point I’m not seeing a whole lot of advantage to the vaccine. Some, certainly, in that you get Delta (and likely others) without major symptoms, so there’s that. OTOH, most folks get Chinese Wuhan Covid without a lot of fuss and bother, so I’d need to see the actual comparative statistics to know “how good” and since we’re not testing for asymptomatic vaccinated Delta spreaders there’s no way to know that. Oh Well.

    At this point, I don’t know which will be worse:

    A) Being on the Vaccine Du Jour plan with a 6 month shot for the rest of life.
    or
    B) Being on the Ivermectin Dose Of The Week plan for the rest of life.

    Oh Well, at least we have our own study group going on ;-)

  72. E.M.Smith says:

    Ah, getting further into the paper… Looks like preventing S1 shedding requires mutating the spike protein and some vaccines try to do that:

    and mutations that abolish furin cleavage between S1 and S2 to maintain the pre-fusion trimer and to prevent shedding of S1

  73. E.M.Smith says:

    Hmmm…. up to 10 days expression of vaccine mRNA. That’s a LOT longer than the “about a day” asserted elsewhere:

    Persistence of RNA and its expression after different routes of application (including intramuscular) appears to be short (at least in mice), with a maximum of 10 days

    I’m sure it varies by individual, and folks lacking mRNAse will have it active a lot longer than those who properly neutralize mRNA, but still… some folks can be making spike proteins for over a week? Yuck…

  74. Simon Derricutt says:

    PaulinaUS – if you’ve been reading here for a while before commenting, you’ll have seen that robust discussion happens and that that’s OK providing it doesn’t descend into insults to the other denizens of this blog. We may interpret the same data and come up with different answers, but most of us seem to be open to changing opinion when faced with new data. If we aren’t open to changing opinion, there’s not really any point in discussion, after all.

    Thus no need to apologise for “letting off steam”. This virus, and the vexxines, are pretty nasty. Also, it does seem that the official responses have been designed to make things worse.

    The official drive to get a vaccine is based on the belief that that’s the only possible way out of the problem. I think this came from Fauci who spent a long time searching for a vaccine for AIDS, whereas doctors on the ground made that problem a lot better by using medications. This virus has also had some bits of AIDS inserted, and thus has somewhat of the same problems. Yep, I figure that this virus was gene-spliced in Wuhan, then passed through gain-of-function processes there, and accidentally got out. The reason for the GOF work was to try to produce a vaccine,I think, and maybe against AIDS – fits the events that we know, and also that Fauci probably still yearns for that vaccine against AIDS, so once the GOF work was outlawed in the USA he moved it to China.

    Maybe a bit like “1984” seems to be being used a a template, and not as a warning, the implicit lesson of Frankenstein is ignored too. Good intentions, lousy outcome, and where the lousy outcome could easily be predicted by someone who wasn’t obsessed with finding a vaccine.

    Yep, the vexxines are a bad strategy, because currently none of them are sterilising. The nasal-spray version being developed in Israel might actually be sterilising, though there’s probably still a problem with mutations and vaccine escape. Also yep, the vexxines are effectively a man-made virus, but do have a limited (but widely-variable between people) duration of activity and amount of spike protein produced. There’s a risk of inducing auto-immune reactions in the vaccinated people. Overall, all these problems seem to have been predictable from the start based on what we know now and what virologists would have been aware of at the start. See Geert Vanden Bossche for some scary predictions that seem all too likely to be true, based on his previous experience in developing vaccines. Still, as I said earlier, it seems there’s an official belief that the only possible way out of the problem is a vaccine, no matter how inadequately it reacts to variants or that it is non-sterilising.

    It’s a bit of a battle between “experts”. The ones in authority believe that the vaccine is really the best way, but other equally authoritative experts foresee grave problems. Personally, I think the experts foreseeing problems have better logic, and we’re starting to see those predictions coming true. David A brought up the first evidence of ADE in practice. Thus once someone has had the first vaccine, they’re going to need a booster every 6 months in order to not get ill too badly, and if they don’t get the booster they risk dying if they do catch the next variant. That pisses me off because my daughter has been vaccinated (can’t go to work without that document).

    Big brother will take care of you. Not….

  75. jim2 says:

    @David A says: 2 September 2021 at 12:59 pm

    David, this is related to the Nature article under discussion. You have to differentiate between vaccine spike and natural spike. Your articles refer to an isolated S1 part of the spike. Isolated S1 proteins are created via a natural infection.

    However, for the spike produced by the vaccine, it is modified such that the S1 unit CANNOT dissociate from the S2 unit. This was done to stabilize the spike in the PRE-FUSION configuration, for which antibodies are needed.

    The upshot is that the vaccine spike does not produce isolated S1 proteins. Therefore, the two articles linked do not apply to the vaccine, only to natural infections.

  76. E.M.Smith says:

    I know, I know… read the WHOLE paper first, then post one big comment on it… but… it’s morning and I’m just starting my “coffee up” process ;-)

    I think I’m not interested in the AstraZeneca variation…

    Despite the absence of S2-stabilizing mutations, structural studies of the S protein expressed in HeLa cells from the Oxford-AstraZeneca ChAdOx1 nCoV-19 vaccine provided evidence for proper folding and presentation of the trimeric pre-fusion conformation at the cellular plasma membrane78. However, the authors discuss evidence of shedding of the cleaved S1 portion, which has also been observed in model studies with unmodified S proteins compared to mutationally stabilized proteins (Fig. 2c). The effect of dissociation of soluble S1 from the trimer complex on the quality of immune responses is incompletely understood, but some data suggest it may contribute to a higher proportion of non-neutralizing relative to neutralizing antibodies.

    Animal experiments have shown that adenovirus-vector DNA can remain detectable for months after inoculation in transcriptionally active form in contrast to rapidly degraded RNA. Persistence of antigen expression may be a distinctive feature of adenovirus vector vaccines, and has been proposed to contribute to induction of sustained immune responses and long-lasting immunity (reviewed in41).

    Not sure I want even a little bit of “transcriptionally active form” floating around in me for months…

    I’ve got a couple of pages open on another vaccine candidate and it will show up as a new posting in a day or so. I kind of like their approach, but OTOH I don’t have as detailed an understanding of it… (being novel, and not yet as fully examined by others).

    So, OK, the Adenovirus based vaccines can cause “stuff” to hang around for months and have some potential for S1 shedding. The lipid particle vaccines can have some S1 shedding as well, but mutations try to stop that. However they also have an issue of making stable spike proteins that mess with your cells… I’m not seeing a way out of this. Ether you don’t make spike proteins and then have a poor Immunogenicity, or you do make them and take some damage.

  77. David A says:

    Zerohedge has up yet another study on natural immunity, only now it’s 27 times more effective then vaccinated immunity. ( the difference in the various studies may have to do with how time frame post vaccination.)
    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1

    If it turns out that vaccination harms natural immunity, ( there are indications) then the crime of not testing people for prior exposure prior to vaccination becomes worse.

  78. E.M.Smith says:

    @David A:

    Yup. Why I am going hunting for a place to test my antibody levels…

    @Per Non-Vaxxing:

    Why I’m skipping the Vax for now? A lifelong history of allergic reactions to all sorts of stuff coupled with (from the Nature paper above):

    After vaccination with mRNA vaccines, rare events of anaphylactic shock above the average incidence in the population have been reported, largely in individuals with a history of allergy

    I react to all sorts of stuff all over the place all the time. Dogs, cats, a few dozen plants, “cow stuff” and tomatoes make for an arthritis flair up, garbanzo beans, lupine beans, corn, etc. etc.

    I’m a very prime candidate for a shock reaction. So the mRNA “medical intervention” is not right for me. But the Adenovirus based vaccines have cellular debris in them and can have DNA active for a very long time inside “me”. Since if “something goes wrong” I at least want the hope that it ends soon, that’s not so attractive either.

    So “waiting for Mr. Good Vax”… and using chemoprophylaxis while I wait…

  79. E.M.Smith says:

    @jim2:

    You said:

    However, for the spike produced by the vaccine, it is modified such that the S1 unit CANNOT dissociate from the S2 unit.

    There is no “the” vaccine, there is only “which vaccine”…

    The Pfizer Moderna vax has a modified spike protein but other vaccines do not. (This is a global issue, with a global variation in vaccines, and a global audience here…) Exactly which are modified and not isn’t completely clear to me yet, but some certainly are not modified.

    Again quoting from the Nature paper you cited:


    Despite the absence of S2-stabilizing mutations, structural studies of the S protein expressed in HeLa cells from the Oxford-AstraZeneca ChAdOx1 nCoV-19 vaccine
    provided evidence for proper folding and presentation of the trimeric pre-fusion conformation at the cellular plasma membrane. However, the authors discuss evidence of shedding of the cleaved S1 portion, which has also been observed in model studies with unmodified S proteins compared to mutationally stabilized proteins18 (Fig. 2c). The effect of dissociation of soluble S1 from the trimer complex on the quality of immune responses is incompletely understood, but some data suggest it may contribute to a higher proportion of non-neutralizing relative to neutralizing antibodies

    So “the details matter”… and why I’m spending so much time digging into the details before I line up for a mystery injection…

  80. E.M.Smith says:

    @David A:

    From that Zerohedge linked article:

    Conclusions This study demonstrated that natural immunity confers longer lasting and stronger protection against infection, symptomatic disease and hospitalization caused by the Delta variant of SARS-CoV-2, compared to the BNT162b2 two-dose vaccine-induced immunity. Individuals who were both previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 and given a single dose of the vaccine gained additional protection against the Delta variant.

    At least short term the “vax on top of natural” is an add not a detraction. Hopefully that holds up over time..,. I’m suspicious that it will be just another 6 month antibody boost and then you will be left with a bunch of non-neutralizing antibodies, but that’s just a muse not a reality. So we’re still in the “time will tell” regime.

    This early in the morning (for me) I’ve lost the term of art for it, but there’s a known process where repeated injections of vaccines give decreasing results. Constant annual flu vaccination starts to have less and less effect. (IIRC the body starts to do something like “Hey, this is just another kind of flu, we already have a flu antibody in the library, just make that one” even if it isn’t the right one for that variant…) The hope is that the C-19 Vax doesn’t do something like override the natural antibodies in the library with a “Make this one A LOT as it’s the new thing” and instead is just an added one along with the natural antibodies.

  81. E.M.Smith says:

    From the other paper Jim2 cited:

    Airway cells exposed to SARS-CoV-2 spike protein exhibited persisting changes in gene expression

    By Nancy D. Lamontagne
    April 30, 2021

    Results from a new cell study suggest that the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein can bring about long-term gene expression changes. The findings could help explain why some COVID-19 patients—referred to as COVID long-haulers—experience symptoms such as shortness of breath and dizziness long after clearing the infection.

    SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, is covered in tiny spike proteins. During infection, the spike proteins bind with receptors on cells in our body, starting a process that allows the virus to release its genetic material into the inside of the healthy cell.
    […]
    Culturing human airway cells requires specific conditions that allow cells to mature into the differentiated cells that would be found in the airway. The researchers optimized a previously developed culturing approach known as the air–liquid interface technique so that it would more closely simulate the physiological conditions found in the lung airway. This involved exposing cells to air and then giving them time to mature into airway cells.

    The researchers found that cultured human airway cells exposed to both low and high concentrations
    of purified spike protein showed differences in gene expression that remained even after the cells recovered from the exposure. The top genes included ones related to inflammatory response.

    The vexxine causes the production of a lot of spike protein AND there has been an assertion that spike shedding happens. (Perhaps this explains some vaccine reactions too).

    Could this shedding, then, be the reason some folks report having reactions to vaccinated people? Sneezing, shortness of breath, etc. have been reported by some.

    Heck, I’ve had several times now I’ve had a bit of “lung tightness” and / or sneezing fits after being around some vaccinated folks. I just attribute it to ‘my usual’ reaction to some fragrance or other ‘products’ they might have on. (Though I’ve not smelled any fragrance…) BUT it does happen more around recently vaccinated folks than anyone else… (for a while we had vaxxed not wearing masks and un-vaxxed wearing so there was a modest bit of information) I’ve also got more “throat clearing” events than usual for the last few months. Like the lungs are shoveling a bit more mucus up the pipe to have some crap disposed of…

    Who knows… Yet Another Unanswered Question.

  82. jim2 says:

    Yes, I should have indicated I was discussing the mRNA – Moderna/Pfizer ones.

  83. jim2 says:

    EMS – Although the “lung” paper didn’t specify, it appears the spike proteins were viral, not the Moderna/Pfizer type. I think it should be clear by now we have to determine what kind of spike protein is referenced – they are not the same.

  84. Simon Derricutt says:

    EM – “Constant annual flu vaccination starts to have less and less effect. (IIRC the body starts to do something like “Hey, this is just another kind of flu, we already have a flu antibody in the library, just make that one” even if it isn’t the right one for that variant…) The hope is that the C-19 Vax doesn’t do something like override the natural antibodies in the library with a “Make this one A LOT as it’s the new thing” and instead is just an added one along with the natural antibodies.”

    I don’t have a link handy (and also can’t recall the name of that effect) but it was something that Geert Vanden Bossche talked about a few months ago. He said that the new vaccination spurs the body into producing more of the old antibodies, since they’re close (that is, it’s already in the library, we just need more of them). Thus you get a lot more antibodies for the old variant, and they out-compete both the production of antibodies for the variant and the natural undifferentiated ones that are the backups. Antibody titre is high, but they aren’t the right ones to catch the new variant virus.

  85. Compu Gator says:

    The major hospital chains in Central Florida are the Orlando Health (formerly hq. at Orlando Regional Medical Center, longer ago, the homegrown Orange Memorial Hospital) and Advent Health (still a 7th-Day-Adventist-operated hospital nearly up in Winter Park, longer ago known as Florida Hospital).

    Sooo, if readers accessed a Central-Florida MSM source, they could learn that it was only Advent Health that had run out of morgue space.

    Nevertheless, no source I’ve read raised these issues:

    ‣ Are Adventist CoViD treatment protocols more likely to lead to accelerated mortality, whether for symptomatic patients, or their asymptomatic patients merely judged infected (e.g. via 40-effin’-cycle PCR tests)?  The word “ventilator” comes repeatedly to mind.

    ‣ Are the 2 major chains trying to out-Establishment the other?

    Dammit!,  publicity, thus MSM reports, still don’t define what it means, more-or-less quantatively, to be a “CoViD patient” or “infected with CoViD”.

    ‣ When do we ever hear or read either of the 2 forms of the root-word “-symptomatic” in alarming reports of hospital admissions?

    ‣ Did various built-out additions to Adventist sites go penny-wise & pound-foolish on morgue-space plans?  I’m thinking of the choices between planning to accomodate average demand vs. alternative peak demands.

  86. Ossqss says:

    It is important to delineate hospital capacity, and staffed capacity, what is reported….. Just sayin, most hospitals operate at 80% or more capacity normally at full staff, let alone the apprehension coming from such staffing. Hospital ICU, usually has 10 beds in my area. It is easy to use adaptive %’s as a helpful click bait item.

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